Author Topic: A warning to dealers..  (Read 22630 times)

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Offline Bob Marino

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A warning to dealers..
« on: June 13, 2014, 01:53 AM »
  This comes as a piggyback to the recent discussion about stolen tools on Ebay.  Apparently UPS has a program which allows customers, NOT THE SELLER, to redirect a package after it has shipped. Up until recently, when a package is shipped, the only way to reroute is for the Shipper to request a UPS intercept. Now, with UPS MY CHOICE,  a customer can contact UPS and have the package intercepted  and shipped to another location - without the Shipper being notified. Well, on the face of it, sounds pretty customer friendly, but it doesn't take much imagination of those intent on stealing to turn this into a cash cow.

 

  I would urge dealers here - and elsewhere, who use UPS, to ensure that they the shipper be notified if a package is being redirected or better yet, to not allow MY CHOICE as an option for their packages.

  Bob
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 02:26 AM by Bob Marino »
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Offline Kev

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Re: A warning to dealers...credit card fraud........
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 02:21 AM »
Sadly services such as Shipito also have the potential to be abused for scams in a similar way to what Bob describes ... but they are a great way for international buyers to consolidate freight and leverage the service's bulk discount shipping rates.

If a seller is shipping to one of these services and does not already know the buyer, it's a good idea to ensure you've got the actual buyers home address and even potentially request a proof of Id.

Banking and financial services industries seem to take little responsibility for the absolutely massive fraud landscape they themselves have introduced with credit cards. They take little responsibility and place most of the risk on the seller.

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 03:00 AM »
Unfortunately this service is already actively exploited by some credit card fraudsters.

Unless the shipper can prohibit UPS offering this service to the customer there is little that the card brands, merchants or acquirers can do to prevent this type of fraud since the goods are ordered to the legitimate card holders address and after the fraud ranking has been done at transaction time and the authorization has been given by the issuing bank there is nothing the financial institutions can do.

As a merchant I would either find out if there is a box to tick in the senders paperwork to prohibit UPS redirection or change shipping company to one that doesn't have this service if you want to mitigate the risk.
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Offline Alex

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 03:23 AM »
Sounds a bit TOO customer friendly if you ask me. Sure, changing the shipping address afterwards might be useful on occasion, but if you weigh the number of clients who would actually use this verses the potential for misuse, then it doesn't look too good.

Especially when packages could be of some value, clear set conditions should be set before the buy, and not be able to be changed in transit.

Offline wow

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 03:52 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 04:33 AM »
Thx for the heads up Bob.

I wonder what me as  a customer can do to prevent some fraudster from stealing my stuff?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:36 AM by jobsworth »

Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 05:04 AM »
Sounds a bit TOO customer friendly if you ask me. Sure, changing the shipping address afterwards might be useful on occasion, but if you weigh the number of clients who would actually use this verses the potential for misuse, then it doesn't look too good.

Especially when packages could be of some value, clear set conditions should be set before the buy, and not be able to be changed in transit.

I totally agree, I also can't see the benefit of changing address outweighing the risk to both supplier and end customer.


Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 05:25 AM »
  I'm writing this post  chiefly to notify dealers of this program and to inform them that, as a dealer, you can request from UPS that this service not be offered to those ordering from you and perhaps put some pressure on UPS not to get rid of this program but at least to modify it so that a shipper is notified immediately before an address change can be made.  I can not see a reason why the shipper should not be notified of a change in shipping.
 Card holders  are always (rightly so) protected against loss, by the issuing bank.

Bob
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 06:37 AM »
Thx Bob

Online Peter Halle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 06:51 AM »
To me the whole program seems like "a tail wagging the dog" designed to benefit a tiny amount of buyers.  With the usually short fulfillment time for orders - typically just a day or two, and also short shipping times, it would seem to me that that the risk of having such a program will only benefit those who choose to order without pre planning where they will be in about  a week and also those who have a legitimate emergency.

Peter


Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 07:29 AM »
To me the whole program seems like "a tail wagging the dog" designed to benefit a tiny amount of buyers.  With the usually short fulfillment time for orders - typically just a day or two, and also short shipping times, it would seem to me that that the risk of having such a program will only benefit those who choose to order without pre planning where they will be in about  a week and also those who have a legitimate emergency.

Peter


It's strange Peter and you make a good point.  The purpose of the program is a bit silly and I don't see it being legitimately used by many.  We've ensured that this service is no longer available to our buyers, which does stink for the few of you that may find it useful, as we were caught out a few times earlier this year by fraud. 
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2014, 08:02 AM »
I have to chime in here. I am a UPS Choice Customer and love the benefits of it! In fact, I have an order scheduled to be delivered today from Tool Nut (Sean) and just checked and verified that I have the ability to change the delivery address if I want to. It may be that if I proceeded through the menus it would at some point prevent me from executing the change (I am home today so do not wish to change it). I have also purchased a number of items from Bob over the years.

While I understand the concerns and challenges you dealers face this is a hugely convenient tool (pun intended) for me. I travel a great deal for my work and more than several times I have had to request my packages be redirected once shipped. Frankly, a dealer who prohibited me from using my Choice benefits might lose my business for that purchase and maybe more.

From my standpoint if a dealer elects to prohibit address changes and that is not made very obvious to me at time of purchase and it is a circumstance where address change is needed I would be a VERY unhappy customer and would likely never purchase from that dealer again. As dealers you are also painfully aware that 1 unhappy customer will tell 7 to 9 other people. Depending on my travel schedule if notified at time of purchase could not be used I would simply purchase elsewhere.

I share this because you guys (Bob and Sean) are outstanding dealers and think you should be aware that your reactions to one problem (depending on how many UPS Choice members purchase from you) might cause unintended consequences. 

Thanks for all you do!
  Jack

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2014, 08:16 AM »
Jack, no way!  Right off the bat someone who uses it.  Ha, how about that. 

Interesting note that it seems to be active.  I just double checked to ensure it's in fact not, thank you for the heads up.

From our perspective, and I'd be curious what Bob has to say, CSD (customer service department) tells me the percentage of orders that utilize my choice that have NOT been fraud, is nearly non existent.  You may be one of the many few.

When I take taht into consideration, it's tough to say yes to a program like that.  I'm sure you can understand.

I'm curious with your last paragraph.  You mentioned taht dealers who don't offer this service would lose your business and in fact make you an unhappy customer.  Have you found, with other purchases, that ALL UPS accounts offer this service.  Possibly it's a default feature that has to be turned off, not initially turned on, so you've been able to use it when and where you please.
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Online Peter Halle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2014, 08:32 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 08:35 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter
Yes sir
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 08:42 AM »
Sean,

I haven't paid a lot of attention to it but I don't recall a UPS shipment that did not have the "delivery change" button on it. I only click on the button when I need to use it though so it is entirely possible some functionality is restricted based on dealer elections.... I just checked my package again after your change and it shows delivery address change not available due to dealer request but all other options are available. Still, if I got called to leave town yesterday I would have changed the delivery address to my son's who lives several miles from me as I don't want the high dollar order coming from you to sit on my front porch nor would I want to change delivery date as I would be back late Friday evening and would want to play with my toy Saturday morning ;-) Under the aforementioned circumstance had I found out about your restriction only when I needed to change it I would have come close to blowing a gasket. I could still have had it delivered to the local UPS Store but UPS pops you $5 and the Store adds $5 as well.

Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack

Jack, no way!  Right off the bat someone who uses it.  Ha, how about that. 

Interesting note that it seems to be active.  I just double checked to ensure it's in fact not, thank you for the heads up.

From our perspective, and I'd be curious what Bob has to say, CSD (customer service department) tells me the percentage of orders that utilize my choice that have NOT been fraud, is nearly non existent.  You may be one of the many few.

When I take taht into consideration, it's tough to say yes to a program like that.  I'm sure you can understand.

I'm curious with your last paragraph.  You mentioned taht dealers who don't offer this service would lose your business and in fact make you an unhappy customer.  Have you found, with other purchases, that ALL UPS accounts offer this service.  Possibly it's a default feature that has to be turned off, not initially turned on, so you've been able to use it when and where you please.

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 08:43 AM »
Thanks so much for the insight Jack.
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 08:47 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter

Agreed, a person with a proven track record like Jack that shouldn't be a problem to allow a redirect.  
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 08:54 AM »
.......Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack



Well, you are now aware of the glaring shortcoming of this program, do you still really think this it is outstanding?
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Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 08:56 AM »
 
 Jack,

 Thanks for the kind words earlier, but as Peter mentioned, any package can redirected by the shipper/dealer upon a customer's request. Not 15 minutes ago, I received  an email from a customer requesting an address change. All that needs to be done is to call or email the shipper/dealer.
 Yes, of course MY CHOICE  can be a convenience in some cases and I would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more accepting of that program if the dealer/shipper needed to be notified beforehand, so he can verify that it is the actual card holder, not some thief who is requesting that address change, instead of finding out a month or 2 later that the card was stolen and you as a dealer basically are on the hook for that stolen product.  

  Bob
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 09:03 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...

I think Fed Ex has had that option for years. At least they used too...

Offline rvieceli

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 09:13 AM »
Yup... FedEx has it too. FedEx Delivery Manager

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 09:30 AM »
  Just another comment - and I have plenty, believe me.  My concern is that MY CHOICE has now been made into a tool which enables a bad guy to steal with impunity. I say that as a dealer who has had some XL's stolen recently using MY CHOICE.

 Bob
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Offline lawhoo

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Re: A warning to dealers
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 10:45 AM »
It's not customer-friendly if it leads to theft.  For most, it turns out to be either an irrelevant or a customer-hostile "service".  I realize that there are the rare customers, like Jack, who actively use this option, but it seems (at least anecdotally) that it's used more to redirect packages from the people who pay to the ones who steal, leaving the paying customer and the dealer as victims.

Offline gkaiseril

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 11:04 AM »
UPS and I believe FedEx on the delivery attempt notice allow for a change of address but it also needs to be signed by the customer. Granted this is not much of deterrent but if the driver scans or keeps the notice it is some documentation.

Another way to use this would to only allow changes in address to a UPS or FedEx store or distribution site where the recipient needs to not only sign for the package but also show a photo ID.

For large dollar purchases I either have them shipped for pickup at a local store or to work.
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 11:07 AM »
Brice,

As a customer I am still of the opinion it is outstanding service. If I were a dealer probably not so much. The gotcha for me in this is the lack of information up front about the limitations (rightly so) for some dealers. Now I know a simple call to Bob or Sean would get the redirect done but frankly wouldn't have thought of that prior to today AND that when I buy from them in the future I will need to contact then directly for package redirect. Information is KING!

Thank you guys for all you do!!

Jack


.......Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack



Well, you are now aware of the glaring shortcoming of this program, do you still really think this it is outstanding?

Offline ivanhoe

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2014, 11:28 AM »
Great info here! I used the re-direct function with FedEx recently when I had some expensive tools being delivered that had to have
a signature upon receipt. (Package was delayed, and no one would have been home at the new time) I  had it re-directed to a local FedEx
center, not another residential address. It was very convenient and I assume somewhat safer for the dealer and customer as I still needed to provide I.D.
to pick up the packages.  

I do see the dealer's point of view on this and thanks to the info here, now know I can call the dealer and get the redirect completed. Up until
now I didn't know that route was possible.

Rod
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 11:31 AM by Ivanhoe »

Offline wrightwoodwork

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2014, 11:52 AM »
To me what is wrong with having good neighbors if I'm not going to be in any of the neighbour's will take the package in. It might be old fashioned but works. It's always handy to have someone that you can trust to collect things

Offline jimmylittle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2014, 12:04 PM »
There is always potential for abuse, but I don't think new ideas should be stifled because we're afraid of a few bad apples.

I travel for work (construction producer for home makeover TV), and there have been many a time when I needed to change the delivery address, sometimes even the delivery state!  It's a convenience for customers.

I don't think the dealers have too much to worry about, since you need a tracking number and a UPS login account to make the change.  If a thief has that information, they probably have a bunch of other info about you, too.  It's probably on par with the UPS guy leaving a package in front of your garage door and a thief wandering by and picking it up.
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Offline johninthecamper

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 12:16 PM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 12:28 PM »
There is always potential for abuse, but I don't think new ideas should be stifled because we're afraid of a few bad apples.

I travel for work (construction producer for home makeover TV), and there have been many a time when I needed to change the delivery address, sometimes even the delivery state!  It's a convenience for customers.

I don't think the dealers have too much to worry about, since you need a tracking number and a UPS login account to make the change.  If a thief has that information, they probably have a bunch of other info about you, too.  It's probably on par with the UPS guy leaving a package in front of your garage door and a thief wandering by and picking it up.



 In this case, not so, the thieves use their own email address, not the card holders. So tracking comes immediately to the thief. From there, they redirect to an address more suitable to where they can either have it delivered to a friend or be close by and simply wait for the package to arrive. If you know the usual UPS delivery times for that street it's easy pickings.

B
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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline previouslyK119Phil

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2014, 01:51 PM »
Ouch.. multiple XLs stolen.... sorry for your loss Bob [crying]

I think I'll poke the elephant in the room with a thousand dollar cattle prod -- and of course I can only speak for K-119, but when an item gets stolen, it's a total loss for us.  UPS doesn't pay.  Whistling the State Farm tune doesn't make a guy appear out of thin air to make things right.  (I've tried)

K-119 is an old school retail store from the 70s.  I guess people back then had less sticky fingers, but as the new guy at the store trying to bring things online, this is definitely the very slippery slope I am still learning to navigate, and the very reason why I have yet to launch K-119's online store -- I'm terrified of the potential for fraud.

We do keep a log of serial numbers for all tools leaving the store, and report to manufacture on stolen items.  I vaguely recall that we may have recovered a stolen OF1400 when it made its way back to Festool for repair. 

But yea, shipping cost and fraud prevention are the two areas that apparently even the best (Bob and Sean) still struggle with :-\
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Offline iamnothim

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2014, 02:10 PM »
I've done this with FedEx a couple times when I've had a couple missed delivery attempt tags on my door.
However the only option is to redirect to a FedEx store.

It's a great option and helps when I'm not going to be home.

The cost benefit of the UPS redirect service is way out of whack.
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Offline jimmylittle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 02:26 PM »


In this case, not so, the thieves use their own email address, not the card holders

B

That is a crazy loophole for UPS to leave in the system!  It seems that if you want the option of changing shipping, you should need to be a registered UPS customer and all correspondence goes through the registered email address that is anonymous to the public.  The email and tracking number should match before UPS changes anything! 

It takes more effort to change a Craigslist posting, which does require verification of email and does provide anonymous email forwarding so the public can't see your real email, which is usually your login.

I had no idea it was that open wide.  That being said, I still do like and use the option.  It should require more verification, though.
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Offline copcarcollector

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 02:54 PM »
Bob (or Sean or Phil), this is more of a retailers question - with the fraudulent orders received, was there an AVS match on the credit card? It would seem that if there was a match, you should have a little more evidence on your side when that dreaded chargeback comes through. Just curious.

For those not in the know, AVS is an Address Verification used when processing credit cards, it matches the address and zip code provided on the order against your billing information. Its supposed to be one more level of security, especially for the retailer. Some retailers / processing systems will not finalize an order with an AVS mismatch.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 02:59 PM »
Bob (or Sean or Phil), this is more of a retailers question - with the fraudulent orders received, was there an AVS match on the credit card? It would seem that if there was a match, you should have a little more evidence on your side when that dreaded chargeback comes through. Just curious.

For those not in the know, AVS is an Address Verification used when processing credit cards, it matches the address and zip code provided on the order against your billing information. Its supposed to be one more level of security, especially for the retailer. Some retailers / processing systems will not finalize an order with an AVS mismatch.

 Yes, their sure is AVS verification.  You can't place an order on my site without it.

Bob
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 03:07 PM »
For me there are options, a retailer does not have to use all or any of the checks. I use  3, some use none, some use more.

I use the (AVS)address, zip and 3 numbers on back of card, if ALL 3 don't pass then the buyer gets a message to try again.. I could also use phone number(to match card used on billing) if I wanted. BUT, my processor gives me the option to use ZERO checks, it's all up to me. XXX sites are required to use all checks, they have different rules for different businesses, at least my processor does.

I also have the option to ONLY ship to the address of the buyers card or the transaction gets denied, I don't use that option as many of my items go to job sites not the owners address.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:11 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline pyleg

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 03:35 PM »

  I would urge dealers here - and elsewhere, who use UPS, to ensure that they the shipper be notified if a package is being redirected or better yet, to not allow MY CHOICE as an option for their packages.

  Bob

I don't suppose it should influence your business decision, but I once had a circumstance where such a service would have been useful.  A high-end tool company had a problem with its internal database and had shipped an order to an old address I'd since changed on their website.  By the time I discovered this, it was the night before delivery, the company was closed for the night and no amount of begging UPS would get them to let me change the no signature delivery from my old address.  I ended up having to go to my old apartment and collect it from the street-facing stoop.  I potentially saved the company several hundred dollars but it was stressful.   

Offline Tinker

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 03:50 PM »
From my standpoint if a dealer elects to prohibit address changes and that is not made very obvious to me at time of purchase and it is a circumstance where address change is needed I would be a VERY unhappy customer and would likely never purchase from that dealer again. As dealers you are also painfully aware that 1 unhappy customer will tell 7 to 9 other people. Depending on my travel schedule if notified at time of purchase could not be used I would simply purchase elsewhere.

I share this because you guys (Bob and Sean) are outstanding dealers and think you should be aware that your reactions to one problem (depending on how many UPS Choice members purchase from you) might cause unintended consequences. 

Thanks for all you do!
  Jack

In all fairness, if you take that 'tude, it should work both ways.  If you suspect you might chose to make an address change, you should let the dealer know in advance of your own possible intentions. If you plan on further dealings, perhaps giving out a list of the possible addresses you know you might use would be of help. (I am not in the retail business, nor do I have any such intentions, but I can see their problems as presented with this conversation)

These dealers are sending dozens of orders out every day.  Every time they send an order, they are taking a risk, maybe even all of the risk.  A couple of misdirected $1000 items in a week could really mess up a man's day.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline copcarcollector

  • Posts: 1437
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 04:13 PM »
I ship with or without AVS verification, but I am not selling $1K Dominos, still it's a risk. I just asked my Fedex rep to turn off customer initiated redirects though. Honestly I had never considered this until this topic---

And you US based dealers may be "lucky" in a way, I ship worldwide, which opens up a whole new set of issues about delivery, damage, chargebacks---- fun!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:24 PM by copcarcollector »

Offline SoonerFan

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 08:39 PM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...

I don't ship much but when I do it goes FedEx.  Better, faster  and cheaper results at least for me.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2014, 09:18 PM »

Offline jtwood

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 11:40 PM »
I have been a UPS My Choice customer for several years, and it is valuable to me.  I live in a remote area where I don't get mail service.  I have a mail delivery box at a store that is 15 miles away from me that also accepts UPS and Fedex shipments for me.  Much of the merchandise I purchase, whether for woodworking or other, is delivered to me that way.  Products/merchandise that are large and/or heavy are delivered to my home.

My Choice lets me find out when I can go pick up the merchandise that is not delivered to my home, and to change delivery to or from my home.  I have never had a problem with something not being delivered to me.

One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.

Steve


Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 12:29 AM »
I have been a UPS My Choice customer for several years, and it is valuable to me.  I live in a remote area where I don't get mail service.  I have a mail delivery box at a store that is 15 miles away from me that also accepts UPS and Fedex shipments for me.  Much of the merchandise I purchase, whether for woodworking or other, is delivered to me that way.  Products/merchandise that are large and/or heavy are delivered to my home.

My Choice lets me find out when I can go pick up the merchandise that is not delivered to my home, and to change delivery to or from my home.  I have never had a problem with something not being delivered to me.

One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.

Steve



 The reports I'm getting are that the cards have been stolen. In every instance, these were not orders placed by any of my existing customers. When the card is stolen, they use that info, but use their own email address and phone number to redirect and get updated tracking info. Perhaps the most frustrating of all is that the credit card companies/banks don't lift a finger to help the shipper and report this to the authorities, actually they run like a  when asked to do so.

B
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Offline Paul G

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 01:01 AM »
I didn't know of this feature, there's plenty of times I wish I could change the shipping address midstream simply because often when placing the order I'm not sure where I'll be to receive it. So I typically default to my residence but UPS is in the bad habit of leaving stuff outside my door. To make matters worse our neighborhood has occasionally been hit by a package thief who simply follows big brown around and helps himself, neighbor even got the prick on camera. Regardless, it's absurd the seller isn't notified of a change of address, at that point UPS should be liable but no doubt they've covered themselves in the fine print.
+1

Offline GrinningShark

  • Posts: 51
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2014, 03:24 AM »
I use the service also, but not to redirect packages.  I like how their app allows notifies me of upcoming deliveries and also allows me to pick a delivery time window or tell the driver where to leave a package on my property.  Since I am legit, if someone else were to signup for this service and attempt to use my address to signup for the service themselves, I will be notified.  I find that to be a good thing.  Been on the program since it was introduced over a year ago.  Note that some of the features of the service do require a paid subscription or one time payments.

Honestly, if a business were to block a legit customer just because they use the service for the couple of things ai mentioned above, that would be a shame.  I have bought a few thousand bucks work of stuff from both Bob and Sean and it has been handy getting the delivery alerts and notificatioms without having to do anything at all.  And, being able to tell tne driver where to leave a package has been handy.  Until this program, our driver was lazy and would just dump a package in fromt of our garage and I missed a delivery one day and came home to a package soaked in the rain.  Now I have it set to leave om the porch if we are not there (although we are there for the pricey stuff).  Part of the problem too, is that half the time the drivers do not ring the bell, they just drop the box and run.  The only time I have been asked to sign is when a dealer has flagged a package as requiring a signature.

If a business were to block me just because I am on the service, they would lose my business.  Seems harsh, but I am an honest customer and it would be harsh to get punished because of other dishonest fraudsters.

Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2014, 03:44 AM »
So I typically default to my residence but UPS is in the bad habit of leaving stuff outside my door.

I've seen a fair bit of this in the UK as well with various carriers.

Several times I've come home to find expensive items on my front door with the added insult of the online delivery status showing 'my' signature. I usually find it's worse during holiday seasons when extra drivers are drafted in or when firms have short term driver contracts.

Should be liable but no doubt they've covered themselves in the fine print.

Yup, I've had to go through the fine print several times myself and it is shocking where a carriers liability ends.

A tip for the UK members on here, one thing to note with some UK carriers is that if the carrier doesn't have the exact delivery address (as given by you) in their system and needs to amend their records, even slightly then their insurance is null and void in the event of loss. 

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2014, 04:38 AM »
One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.
The croocks have a fledgind market of both card holder and PII data available on the black market after the massive data breaches that have hit us in recent years.

They basically purchase a dump of cards with address and cardholder name info and go shopping for high-value merchandise that is easy to sell and use the stolen, but correct cardholder information during the checkout process except putting in their own phone/email address and then redirect at the shipping company once they see that the package has left the merchant from tracking information. Depending on if organized crime is involved or not they redirect to either package mules (people who are recruited to act as packet logistics assistants for a small wage, typically dumb house wives, unemployed, etc.) or to empty houses on quiet streets where collection is safer.

Organized crime is very efficient in their logistics for example in this case where items were bought in Denmark and shipped to packet mules in Poland and forwarded to Lithuania / White Russia / Ukraine hitherto.
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Offline RKA

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2014, 07:44 AM »
So if I'm understanding this correctly, if the CC processors and companies kept approved email addresses and phone numbers on file and that was required and verified at checkout, that should minimize the issues?

I think retailers might be able to forbid the package redirection for the short term, but eventually legitimate use by customers may force a change in that policy.  I haven't signed up for My Choice yet.  I remember objecting to something in the terms (can't recall what that was), and since I didn't have an immediate need, I just dismissed it. Normally I plan my purchases so they arrive when someone is home that evening.  But the day will come where I will need to redirect to the office or my parents house.  It's just a matter of time.
-Raj

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 08:12 AM »
Well, collecting and keeping track of something like an email address or phone number @ issuer banks could theoretically be used for such things as well, but frankly that information is considered so volatile that it is not even collected most of the time. Also implementing Yet Another Verification Method requirement will push merchants to the brink of suicide...  [unsure]

I for example have several email addresses for online use only and also multiple phone numbers I can be reached. It would be a nightmare to try to remember which ones I have signed up with which card brand and webshop.

Fraudulent use of credit cards would be most efficiently mitigated by having everyone signed up for Verified by Visa and Mastercard Secure Code hardholder ID verification services. This way even if your details were stolen the crooks would get stuck @ VbV/McSC authentication in most cases and fail the authorization.

The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2014, 10:48 AM »
I use the service also, but not to redirect packages.  I like how their app allows notifies me of upcoming deliveries and also allows me to pick a delivery time window or tell the driver where to leave a package on my property.  Since I am legit, if someone else were to signup for this service and attempt to use my address to signup for the service themselves, I will be notified.  I find that to be a good thing.  Been on the program since it was introduced over a year ago.  Note that some of the features of the service do require a paid subscription or one time payments.

Honestly, if a business were to block a legit customer just because they use the service for the couple of things ai mentioned above, that would be a shame.  I have bought a few thousand bucks work of stuff from both Bob and Sean and it has been handy getting the delivery alerts and notificatioms without having to do anything at all.  And, being able to tell tne driver where to leave a package has been handy.  Until this program, our driver was lazy and would just dump a package in fromt of our garage and I missed a delivery one day and came home to a package soaked in the rain.  Now I have it set to leave om the porch if we are not there (although we are there for the pricey stuff).  Part of the problem too, is that half the time the drivers do not ring the bell, they just drop the box and run.  The only time I have been asked to sign is when a dealer has flagged a package as requiring a signature.

If a business were to block me just because I am on the service, they would lose my business.  Seems harsh, but I am an honest customer and it would be harsh to get punished because of other dishonest fraudsters.


  I so do hear you and other legit customers about the convenience derived from this program, but for the amount of fraud occurring and all of it high value items - XL's, the way MY CHOICE is currently configured, most importantly that the SELLER IS NOT NOTIFIED IF THERE IS A REDIRECT  is the glaring loophole that makes offering MY CHOICE literally unsustainable for my business to survive. Any and every dealer knows how may XL's you need to sell to make up for that loss AND paying shipping costs on top of  that.

 Two months ago, I got a call from a a man - not my customer, asking about a package that was delivered to him  - name and address were correct.  I asked him to open the box and sure enough it was an XL 700. I then checked and saw that he was charged for the item. I said thanks, notify your credit card company about the stolen card and we will issue a UPS pick up label for shipping back to my Ohio warehouse. Well, for whatever reason, we did not ship that label for another few days. He then called me and said that he was just notified by his credit card company and they informed him that his card was tried and declined when the thief was attempting to pay the UPS for the MY DIRECT program to redirect to another address. In this instance, I was lucky as it was a timing issue. In this instance, the thieves messed up, but again, UPS CHOICE was  the program that would have enabled him to steal the tool.
 
 Actually, if I had the time, money and patience - all of which I don't have, I would speak to a lawyer and file a class action suit against UPS for continuing to offer a program that so blatantly and easily enables fraud. I would like to see MY CHOICE continue, but please modify it so that the seller is informed when there is a redirect.
 And, again, as mentioned, if any of my customers need a redirect or hold, they can call or email me and I will (and have) make the changes, no problema.
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2014, 11:22 AM »
Bob, I doubt many of the supporters of the re-direct option realize you are the one who looses
when this happens as part of a fraudulent purchase.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2014, 11:30 AM »
Bob, I doubt many of the supporters of the re-direct option realize you are the one who looses
when this happens as part of a fraudulent purchase.

  Good point, Michael.

 Correct on fraudulent charges, the dealer is left holding the bag and is totally out of pocket for the items stolen. No recourse, currently.

 Bob
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Offline Wonderwino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2014, 11:41 AM »
Does UPS provide the shipper with the redirected address?  Or is this a "privacy issue?"   [sad]  If they do, it should be easy to get the FBI involved if it is interstate felony fraud.
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Offline billbunton

  • Posts: 5
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2014, 11:59 AM »
Just to throw in my two cents worth, as a My Choice customer I think this ability is great.  I've never used it, the last time I needed it it didn't exist, but would have saved me loss of some items, and would have saved a vendor from losing my business forever.

I ordered a couple items that were back-ordered.  When they hadn't arrived by the time I moved, I emailed the vendor my new address, and asked by be shipped to the new address.  After the move, I got notification from the vendor that the items had shipped, and to my previous address.  I again emailed the vendor, asking to have it redirected to the new address, and in the meantime ordered another set.  I was charged shipping (which was supposed to be free), plus expedited shipping (which I hadn't asked for), and never did get the original order (later I was told the emails were never received, and I should have called instead).

I also like very much being able to delay delivery.  If I'm going to be out of town, rather than having a pile of boxes left on my door, I can simply set a vacation period and nothing will be delivered until after I'm back.

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2014, 03:06 PM »
Due to the idiotic delivery schedules of the packet companies (no residential evening deliveries in Finland) I order all my stuff to the office where I have a reception 8-17 every day to sign for the packages and not have to worry about parcels left @ the door.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline GrinningShark

  • Posts: 51
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2014, 10:18 PM »
I so do hear you and other legit customers about the convenience derived from this program, but for the amount of fraud occurring and all of it high value items - XL's, the way MY CHOICE is currently configured, most importantly that the SELLER IS NOT NOTIFIED IF THERE IS A REDIRECT  is the glaring loophole that makes offering MY CHOICE literally unsustainable for my business to survive. Any and every dealer knows how may XL's you need to sell to make up for that loss AND paying shipping costs on top of  that.

 Two months ago, I got a call from a a man - not my customer, asking about a package that was delivered to him  - name and address were correct.  I asked him to open the box and sure enough it was an XL 700. I then checked and saw that he was charged for the item. I said thanks, notify your credit card company about the stolen card and we will issue a UPS pick up label for shipping back to my Ohio warehouse. Well, for whatever reason, we did not ship that label for another few days. He then called me and said that he was just notified by his credit card company and they informed him that his card was tried and declined when the thief was attempting to pay the UPS for the MY DIRECT program to redirect to another address. In this instance, I was lucky as it was a timing issue. In this instance, the thieves messed up, but again, UPS CHOICE was  the program that would have enabled him to steal the tool.
 
 Actually, if I had the time, money and patience - all of which I don't have, I would speak to a lawyer and file a class action suit against UPS for continuing to offer a program that so blatantly and easily enables fraud. I would like to see MY CHOICE continue, but please modify it so that the seller is informed when there is a redirect.
 And, again, as mentioned, if any of my customers need a redirect or hold, they can call or email me and I will (and have) make the changes, no problema.


UPS could change a few things to reduce or eliminate the fraud.  They could just check the credit card address against the address being registered for My Choice.  Also, a card could be sent with a code to the address that is being registered and require that before the service is activated.  Or, although this could be annoying... require a new signup to go to a UPS store amd present a valid ID with the right address on it to complete activation of the service.  Many ways to fix this... 

I do not use the redirect feature and feel for the businesses that lose money on this kind of fraud.  It is crazy that businesses are left holding the bag.

Offline icecactus

  • Posts: 61
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2014, 07:34 AM »
Bob, I am curious as to what good notifying the seller would do?
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Offline JD2720

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2014, 08:22 AM »
Well, the dealers that are getting ripped off by the UPS system & doing nothing are getting what you deserve.
One dealer even stated that he did not have the time to fight it.
WOW, must be making gobs of money.

UPS is an accesssory to interstate theft. That is a Federal Crime.
File a complaint with the US attorney's office.
Also it is not hard to find an attorney to file a class action lawsuit against a large corporation.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2014, 08:42 AM »
Well, the dealers that are getting ripped off by the UPS system & doing nothing are getting what you deserve.
One dealer even stated that he did not have the time to fight it.
WOW, must be making gobs of money.

UPS is an accesssory to interstate theft. That is a Federal Crime.
File a complaint with the US attorney's office.
Also it is not hard to find an attorney to file a class action lawsuit against a large corporation.

 Well, that would be me and no not making gobs of money.  And, as mentioned, you have to sell quite a few XL's to make up for one that is stolen; that's painful.
The credit card companies offer zilch help and tracing the phony one time use emails and phone numbers are impossible, especially since you are usually informed months after the fact.  However, on the last stolen XL, we have tracking from UPS to a condo complex and filing a report to the state's AG is exactly what is in progress. Why the credit card companies and UPS/FedEx are not in the lead in fighting this battle - they have huge data bases at their finger tips, is beyond me. Again, in the last case where we have some definite information, we are persuing it, but again, the cc companies really need to take the lead here.

Bob
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Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2014, 08:52 AM »


In Australia Tap and Go has recently been introduced for electronic card transactions up to (in most cases) A$100.00.

The state Commissioner for the Victorian Police force last week reported a significant increase in credit card thefts from homes, vehicles and letter boxes (new cards are posted). He was very critical of the banks who although they accept liability for customers, appear not to report fraudulent use to the police unless it is of a significant amount. Hence a lot of fraud and theft is going on under the radar.

Now I know $100A will not buy much in the way of Festool tools but it will buy some accessories!    [smile]
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 08:56 AM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Stoli

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2014, 09:03 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.

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Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2014, 09:15 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month
Mistakes happen and any carrier is prone to them.  I wouldn't say that's the norm with Fedex, but we also don't ship Fedex per SOP.  I do recall an old shipment that got delayed with the status of "Train Fire & Derailment - Package Delayed".
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Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2014, 09:19 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.
Stoli, you got it.  That's the point here.  The dealer, who is on the hook, needs to be given a notification and a heads up that the sale has been modified before the product has reached the end user.  The dealer then has time to reach out to the customer, which would result in contacting either the actual card holder (and subsequent cancellation of the order... we get product back and lose shipping) or contract with the thief.  I can tell you form multiple experiences, within seconds of being on the phone with a crook, it's clear as day.  A simple hello is almost enough to tell.

It's interesting to hear some of you talk about class action lawsuits.  I have no experience there, but I wonder if it's something to shine light on for a firm and see if they see it as a worthy project to investigate.

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Offline jonny round boy

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2014, 09:28 AM »
Surely if you (the dealer) pay FedEx (or whoever) to deliver a package to a specific address, and they fail to deliver it to the address you specified, that's a breach of contract?

A customer shouldn't be able to re-direct a shipment, as the contract of delivery is between the dealer and the carrier. That contract has nothing whatsoever to do with the end recipient.

I'm probably (definitely) over-simplifying the problem, but it seems perfectly obvious and straightforward to me...



Oh, and on a related note - maybe things are different in the UK. I always thought that if something similar happened over here, the CC company was ultimately liable?
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2014, 09:33 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month
Mistakes happen and any carrier is prone to them.  I wouldn't say that's the norm with Fedex, but we also don't ship Fedex per SOP.  I do recall an old shipment that got delayed with the status of "Train Fire & Derailment - Package Delayed".

What does SOP mean?

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2014, 09:35 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.



Well done Stoli  [thumbs up]

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2014, 09:38 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.



Well done Stoli  [thumbs up]


 Agree with all of the above, BUT at the least, the shipper must be notified. As Sean mentioned, one call to the thief and you van tell that this guy - USUALLY with a very heavy accent is not John Smith from Main St Ohio.

B
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2014, 09:51 AM »
Surely if you (the dealer) pay FedEx (or whoever) to deliver a package to a specific address, and they fail to deliver it to the address you specified, that's a breach of contract?

A customer shouldn't be able to re-direct a shipment, as the contract of delivery is between the dealer and the carrier. That contract has nothing whatsoever to do with the end recipient.

I'm probably (definitely) over-simplifying the problem, but it seems perfectly obvious and straightforward to me...



Oh, and on a related note - maybe things are different in the UK. I always thought that if something similar happened over here, the CC company was ultimately liable?

You'd think...

On the other hand, I've ordered stuff from suppliers who think their responsibility ends with turning the goods over to the shipper.

I used the FedEx version of re-direct years ago when the shipper put the wrong Zip code on the package and delivery failed. It was about to go back to the shipper when I found out and got the re-route sorted. I'm not sure now but it's possible I had to get the shipper involved in the re-direct. I did have to talk with them to figure out what went wrong.

Those were time sensitive supplies and if it had been UPS (at that time UPS reported package status only at the end of the day) instead of FedEx the project would have failed. Also, if I had depended on the supplier to sort it out the project would have failed.

So, I see both sides here. The re-direct protects me from lackadaisical venders but it puts good venders at risk.

Offline John_

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2014, 10:28 AM »
Bob - what did UPS say when you mentioned your concerns to them?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2014, 11:11 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.


Actually, #4 is a completed sale. The buyer (victim of stolen CC) could not claim the loss to his CC company if the goods were shown to be delivered to his address. Even though the CC victim wasn't originally a legitimate buyer at the beginning, he became the equivalent when he accepted the product.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2014, 11:40 AM »
Bob - what did UPS say when you mentioned your concerns to them?

  My warehouse manager spoke to the UPS rep in charge of the fulfillment center and essentially other than implementing the things we are now doing - matching area codes to zip codes, possibly calling a suspect order's phone and holding off on MY CHOICE. They were able to suppy us with the delivered address of the last stolen XL, but then the onus is on me tp persue further - which I will.


Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Online Peter Halle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2014, 11:53 AM »
Michael.

SOP= Standard Operating Procedures

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2014, 02:48 PM »

4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.


Actually, #4 is a completed sale. The buyer (victim of stolen CC) could not claim the loss to his CC company if the goods were shown to be delivered to his address. Even though the CC victim wasn't originally a legitimate buyer at the beginning, he became the equivalent when he accepted the product.

From the consumer end, how can we tell the difference between fraud and unsolicited goods?  If a package ends up at my doorstep that I did not order, I am under no obligation to purchase or even return the package.

"Acceptance" is also pretty loose here -- UPS may just leave the package at the house when no one is present.  Does that count as "acceptance"?

Either way, my point was really that vendors really need more than just notification.  I think they need to be able to recall when they suspect fraud.
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Tinker

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2014, 02:06 PM »
This whole problem seems to be very complicated.  There are many opinions about how to solve.  Some i understand and some leave me more confused.

The one solution that aggravates me is (from some, but not all replies) the attitude that if something goes wrong, the customer will discontinue doing business with the supplier.  A very dogmatic position to say the least.  It was not the suppliers fault.  The supplier is the loser all around.  Would it be a better solution to stop doing business with the shipper, and maybe even the CC who will not help out in any way. 

I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2014, 02:39 PM »
I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

Tinker


My bank (USAA) has been wonderful when I have been hit with fraudulent charges.  They even called me one afternoon and asked where I was.  I told them, "Sitting in my living room."  "You're not in the UK?" "No, I'm in Virginia."  The bottom line is that my card was cancelled and replaced immediately and no fraudulent charges have ever hit my pocket.  I can't say enough good about their services.  It appears to me that the shipping companies that allow this to occur without permission from the vendor are the problem. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2014, 02:57 PM »
My bank (USAA) has been wonderful when I have been hit with fraudulent charges.  They even called me one afternoon and asked where I was.  I told them, "Sitting in my living room."  "You're not in the UK?" "No, I'm in Virginia."  The bottom line is that my card was cancelled and replaced immediately and no fraudulent charges have ever hit my pocket.  I can't say enough good about their services.  It appears to me that the shipping companies that allow this to occur without permission from the vendor are the problem.

That is actually quite common for a lot of banks, the problem is that they are not addressing why they need that service in the first place.

Offline Stoli

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2014, 03:39 PM »
Note that Bob (a dealer) intended this to be a warning to other dealers.

If it was your card used in this type of fraud, the bank would likely cancel the charge. However, the XL has still been shipped to the thief, and I seriously doubt that the bank is going to pay the dealer anything.  So the dealer loses.  This was Bob's warning.
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2014, 04:34 PM »
Note that Bob (a dealer) intended this to be a warning to other dealers.

If it was your card used in this type of fraud, the bank would likely cancel the charge. However, the XL has still been shipped to the thief, and I seriously doubt that the bank is going to pay the dealer anything.  So the dealer loses.  This was Bob's warning.

I think most of us understood that Stoli [smile], however this isn't always a victimless crime from a customer perspective, hence the related comments.


Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2014, 02:36 AM »
I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

It depends on the issuing bank how they set up their fraud control rules. In Finland we do very proactive card closures and re-issuance on the slightest indication of the card number or mag.stripe image being exposed to criminals.

We receive these indications both from the authorities and card brands as well as through our own heuristic and behavioral monitoring systems and act accordingly. Some banks have higher risk acceptance limits and especially in large card holder data leakage cases the renewals need to be planned and risk assessed thoroughly due to logistics and related costs involved in manufacturing massive amounts of new cards.

What you describe is a typical example of proactive monitoring kicking in when a non-conforming transaction has tripped the behavioral monitoring system alert and the CC rep called you before the second attempt even came through. In these cases there are really no other options than cancel the current card and re-issue a new card when active exploitation is underway.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2014, 10:15 AM »
 

 Here is a PM I sent to a customer about a week ago -  he gave me permission to share with Forum members.

 I wanted to PM  you about the MY CHOICE thing before I write another response on the FOG. I very much appreciate a customer wanting to have this option and I take very, very seriously anything that limits or negatively affects their buying experience from me. And of  course, the overwhelming amount of customers, like yourself are honest people, who would never think of using this program fraudulently. However, it seems there are a tiny amount of people who have discovered this program and this has enabled them to blatantly and successfully steal from dealers. We have discussed this with our rep at UPS and for now, having that huge loophole of not even informing or getting the dealer's permission, needs to be closed, so in affect, we decided - with some hesitation to block that program.

 The rate of stolen tools, in this case  XL's, at this point is literally unsustainable. It's somewhat akin to having a major renovation to your house with a half dozen people having your keys and months after having finished up, you find something stolen and the next month another item stolen and so on. After making a report to the police, you'd change the keys. Right now, some people have that key in hand and I must change the key.

   Best Regards,

 Bob


 As an aside, about a week ago, I received a phone call from another Festool dealer whom I have known for many years. Of all things, he asked if I were having an issue with credit card fraud! Nope, he did not read the posts here on the FOG, this was totally out of the blue.  In almost every one of the  (6) instances he mentioned, the item stolen was the XL. He has since tightened up some security (holding orders over a certain amount, calling for some verification, etc.) and has not had a problem since. He uses FedEx, but was also unaware  - of the customer redirect program. He's checking with his FedEx rep to see if that was the vehicle used to enable the fraud and will get back to me on that. He thanked me for that heads up.

 As mentioned here by myself and others, the dealer was left on the hook for the XL's and had zero help from the credit card companies. This lack of assistance in reporting to the authorities fraud and criminality is in my opinion and should be a criminal offense in itself. At the very least, they have (along with programs like MY CHOICE) enabled the thieves and helped to make credit card fraud the problem it is. Sometimes, its the simplest of things (reporting the details - where the stolen item was delivered to, IP address, phone numbers, etc.) that can have the most dramatic of effects.

Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
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                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3668
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2014, 11:57 AM »
Quote from Bob Marino >>> As mentioned here by myself and others, the dealer was left on the hook for the XL's and had zero help from the credit card companies. This lack of assistance in reporting to the authorities fraud and criminality is in my opinion and should be a criminal offense in itself. At the very least, they have (along with programs like MY CHOICE) enabled the thieves and helped to make credit card fraud the problem it is.  <<<

I agree to that.
The Cc's can come down on us very hard if a mistook is made.  I learned something many moons ago (way back when I was only 38) that if my accounts are in the same bank as my credit card, the CC can raid my checking account.  I was pretty angry when I told them to raid my savings account instead of the checking.  That way, the problem gets sorted between two of us instead a whole group when checks start bouncing like rubber balls.  "Oh, we can't do that." 

"Well then give me a call to let me know there is a problem."

"We can't do that either."

"How much do I have in each of my accounts?"

"Why?"

"I am withdrawing EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW."

End of problem.  For the last 100 years or so since, I have made certain to NOT have any credit card with the same bank as my checking account.  For good measure, I don't have my savings account with the same bank as my credit cards either.  Every now and then, thru the years, a couple of my credit card banks have merged.  If I have any of my savings or checking with either of the merged banks, some changes are made IMMEDIATELY. It has happened.
Tinker

Wayne H. Tinker