Author Topic: BS 75 or RO 150  (Read 1232 times)

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Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
BS 75 or RO 150
« on: November 29, 2017, 10:01 AM »
Need some advice guys.

Note - no tablesaw, no thicknesser and no jointer so not an option for me otherwise I would have tried these methods before assembly and not have posted this.

Sit rep:

Purchased pressure treated pine 69x69x2m to be used in outdoor box joint planter box.
It was wet when purchased due to it being towards end of winter/spring here at the time and I left it indoors to dry.
As the wood dried some of the lumber twisted on both ends in opposite directions and warped in the process. - my fault, should have used when wet and/or changed how I stored it

I used the best pieces from the bottom up but now I've run into the worst pieces.
I worked around the issue with clamps, spreader clamps and spax screws.
I tried using my Rotex 90 on some of the twists but got nowhere fast so changed to my EH 65 planer instead to get rid of the worst of it and to sort of level the tops off for the next level.

I'm still contemplating cutting it up for firewood and starting again with different wood - been very, very close a few times but stuck at it.

On the sides of the planter (I will upload pics later) it is very uneven  and will get worse as wood is added and will need to be blended in/flattened out.

I have a Rotex90 and ETS 150/5 EC but they are not going to handle this.

Rotex 150:
Is it aggressive enough for flattening uneven timber and even twister timber in a pinch?

BS 75:
Or is it better to rather throw money at something like the BS 75 since it comes with the ability to clamp it to the workbench and bring wood to the tool?
The sanding plate assists with keeping things straight, would it work on something narrower than the actual belt?
The guide attachment/stopper/fence how well does it work and would it help in my situation for the unattached pieces?

Or is it sometimes worth throwing in the towel and starting again with different wood species?
If I go with untreated dry pine, the replacement wood will cost me +/- 50% of a Rotex 150 or BS 75 but the wood will not last as long down the road.
If I go with Meranti, will cost me the same as buying a brand new Rotex/BS75. Wood is expensive here.
(And it will be the wrong colour, my wife will not be happy [embarassed])


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Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 4553
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Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 12:08 PM »
When I was in Europe, I was looking at getting a BS 75. What stopped me from getting one was that that the BS 75 only comes in 240V. In Europe thats fine here in the USA were are 110V you have to have 240 in your shop or a tranny.

I opted not to get it.

I do have the RO150. I will say it is a amazing tool. If you look at my How to post, I sprayed a head board screwed up the finish and stain twice and used the 150 w 40 grit rubin to sand it dowen to bare wood twice.

 It was no problem for the 150 to do that.

I dont know of any other tools other than a belt sander that could of done it.

You may have to pick up another pad. I have the hard pad (blue one) on my 150 for flattening glue ups etc

Rereading your post I see that you are in S. Africa. You prolly are already using 240V.

So if you decide to get the BS 75 you may have to get the frame with it to sand panels flat the rst of my comments well are info only since I reread what you wrote. But the 150 still is a amazing tool as is had a Random orbital function as well as rotex

as Sedge says I hope this helps
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 12:14 PM by jobsworth »
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 02:11 PM »
Thanks for the feedback @jobsworth. I'm on 230v here in SA.

I have the hard pad for my ETS and RO90, both of which can be aggressive but have their limitations.
I looked at the RO150 today again but as I said to the salesman if I buy it and it doesn't work then I'm not in a position to get the bs75 (we don't have the 30 day return policy here) but on the other hand generally I don't use a belt sander that often. Catch 22

I looked at Makita's offerings and they are solid tanks. Too large and feel like they are going to run away with me.
The Bosch felt cheap in my opinion, I'm sure others love it though.

Part of me knows I can solve this with new wood (quick win) but part of me wants to salvage this project and learn from it/practice on it etc.

Asked my salesman to find pricing on a Ryobi jointer/thicknesser combo machine since it is relatively small and can fit on top of a work bench. - compromise solution. Not sure on the quality though since it isn't something they stock.

Offline tbeaulieu

  • Posts: 1
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 03:08 PM »
I have the 150 with the hard pad and I've used it to flatten end-grain maple, walnut and purple heart cutting boards, starting with 24 Saphire pads. I love the sander.

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 4553
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Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 03:28 PM »
hmmmmm sapphire ..... Im gonna have to look into them. At 24 grit it would of made my sand to bare wood go alot faster....
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 167
BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 04:33 PM »
I refurbished my Moms garden shed this summer. Also only had the RO90 and ETS EC 150. [emoji6]

I just purchased a used RO150 and can not wait to use it on the last stretch of that refurb next spring.
As @tbeaulieu said, I would also suggest to take a deep look into Sapphire. I only had a couple of sheets, but they rock! I used Abranet ACE afterwards, which is not available in the really corse grains, but still held up quite well.

In my eyes the RO150 is the more versatile tool. And if you really need a belt sander sometime, you might be able to get away with a cheap one.

But as always, the tool is only half the story. You need the right Bit/Blade/Sandpaper for whatever you are facing and it will make all the difference...

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 199
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 04:45 PM »
I have an older RO150E (gen. II), a BS75E (a Metabo clone, BaE1075) & a BS105E.  In descending order, the previously mentioned sanders are ranked in accordance with their relative versatility.  Similarly, their "abrasiveness" or speed of operation (sanding to relatively flat) are likewise ranked.  But this time in ascending order. 

The Rotex's versatility is predicated upon its dichotomy of operation: ROTary & EXzenter modes & the variety of abrasives available.  Additionally, there's a basic unidirectional rotary action that allows an almost infinite variety of angles of "attack" for the task.  Belt sanders, by contrast, only abrade aggressively if they're packing coarse abrasive belts & used perpendicularly to the run of wood fibres, ideally about 45 degrees or so.  This limits their "access" to compound surfaces, particular concavities, but makes flattening the same to a uniform plane much, much faster.

A Rotex is an extremely versatile sander, but slower in comparison, whereas a belt sander is limited to, but extraordinarily rapid & effective in flattening larger compound surfaces.

As an aside, an initial plane with a power planer is easily the most rapid initial flattening method for narrower stock.  Additionally, I might add that the Swiss-made PBS 75/E & GBS 75E belt sanders from Bosch were darn fine tools.  Until it was stolen, I had one that worked tirelessly for some 30 years with only the most basic "consumable" maintenance (brushes, platens, tension spring) required despite intensive, heavy duty work requirements.  I reiterate that this was a Swiss tool:  contemporary versions of East Asian origin are nowhere near as good.  Also be aware that newer Rotex sanders use potentially problematic bayonet sanding pad & power cord mountings rather than the more reliable & versatile usual M8 screw mounting & continuous power cable that almost all other better-quality ROS use.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 05:02 PM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 03:43 AM »
I would take a cheap power planer to it, and then either take a belt sander or a good hand plane.
While I have a good belt sander, I did get it used.
Both the hand plane and belt sander should be easier to have it end up flatter than using a smaller rotary sander like an RO or a flap wheel.

If budget was an issue, then a cheap plane, cheap belt sander and finish with a decent plane.

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 05:58 AM »
Hope these photos show the issue, made some head way.

Saphir 24/36 with the ets ec might be a starting point that didn't cross my mind

Edit - only have access to Grant, Rubin and Brilliant for the RO90
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 06:12 AM by Jmacpherson »

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2017, 08:11 AM »
@Holmz - if I recall you once mentioned to me that the vibrations in a belt sander would be far less than the ro150?
I assume the BS even less so being a festool machine and their attention to that sort of thing?

Then from left field, what about a ras 115?

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 08:32 AM »
Just watched this video of the RO150 again.

At 06:44 is where 120gr is used for 4-5secs to show how aggressive the RO150 can be.

Maybe I should just get the RO150 and be done with it? (In the video he is sanding wood much harder than pressure treated pine)
Then consider selling the RO90 to cover some of the costs.

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 167
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 12:53 PM »
Can’t speak for you, but I would keep the RO90. ;)
It is just so versatile especially for the places that are tough to reach with the bigger pads..

Offline BJM9818

  • Posts: 160
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 01:40 PM »
I bought my first Rotex150 in 2006. I have subjected it to abuses it was not designed to take. Grinding fiberglass for days and “sanding” wood while pressing my full 220lbs of body weight on it.   Festool has rebuilt it twice over the past ten years and two years ago I purchased a extra one.

I view a belt sander as a one hit wonder. You will get so much more use out of the 150 I wouldn’t even think twice.

Those 4x4’s look aweful but the Rotex will flatten them no problem.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1971
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 03:05 PM »
One other note, don't beat yourself up about that Pine twisting on you, here in the US it's a bit notorious for doing that at times, so , many of us have been where you are now with this material
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 03:52 PM »
@Holmz - if I recall you once mentioned to me that the vibrations in a belt sander would be far less than the ro150?
I assume the BS even less so being a festool machine and their attention to that sort of thing?

Then from left field, what about a ras 115?

Howzit.
I am no expert in all the tools, but personally I would get a RAS before an RO... really a RAS and an ETS/EC.
Vibration is not exactly the right word... but the RAS will be consistent in the force, whereas the the RO seemed to be possessed by spirits competing for left and right, and forwards and backwards.

I had some woeful looking cypress pine that was twisted. Brought it to the shop... and they said to joint and plane the 6-pieces would be $30... I thought, "a wise man (or last one) would pay the $30"...

The belt sander is relatively smooth, but it is more than it goes forwards like hounds of 'L, rather than possessed and with a mind of its own. You certainly have to hold only it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 04:22 PM by Holmz »

Offline Kevin Stricker

  • Posts: 482
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 11:17 PM »
Hi,

First off I would not recommend sanding or burning PT pine, it is really toxic stuff.  It is also still probably 15%+ rH if you bought it at a big box as that wood is generally 30% + when you buy it.  Sanding wet wood is never very effective.  If you are attempting any joinery in the wood you want to find a lumber yard that stocks KDAT (Kiln Dried after treatment) Yellow Pine.  Heavy sanding is going to negate most of the protection that you get with pressure treatment so make sure you treat the wood with a wood preservative.

If I was in your shoes I would scrap the warped pieces and pick up some new KDAT.  If thats not an option then as others have said pick up a planer and some simple green to clean the blades and sole.  Good Luck.

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2017, 07:12 AM »
Hi,

First off I would not recommend sanding or burning PT pine, it is really toxic stuff.  It is also still probably 15%+ rH if you bought it at a big box as that wood is generally 30% + when you buy it.  Sanding wet wood is never very effective.  If you are attempting any joinery in the wood you want to find a lumber yard that stocks KDAT (Kiln Dried after treatment) Yellow Pine.  Heavy sanding is going to negate most of the protection that you get with pressure treatment so make sure you treat the wood with a wood preservative.

If I was in your shoes I would scrap the warped pieces and pick up some new KDAT.  If thats not an option then as others have said pick up a planer and some simple green to clean the blades and sole.  Good Luck.

The wood was purchased from dedicated retailer who specialise in cca treated wood products, pine decking and balau decking which is kiln dried, sleepers and various other garden related wood items.

The planter will not be raised but on the ground so regular pine even well sealed pine will not last as long. The posts are H4 so can go into the ground without needing additional treament but I will seal anyway
If I could do it all over again I would just go with Meranti and use a dark stain/sealer even though the cost would be higher - would be less movement and better lifespan but I don't make the colour choices in the garden  [big grin]

I don't suppose anyone has a trick up their sleeve that would allow me to stain Meranti into an Oak colour?
Like this

My week just gets better, no Saphir in the country so that has to come from Germany. At this time of the year will take 3wks+
BS75 can be brought down from the main Festool distributor and they have RAS 115s left over too even though they are no longer in the catalogue.

My only concern with the RAS is control and the BS75 is weight even though its on the material.
With both of them will they turn into white elephants vs the RO150 which will be more useful even though I have the ets ec150 which has the same 5mm stroke.
I don't see myself using the RO150 for the finer sanding when the ec is more comfortable but I have done direct comparissons between the 2 of some wood where the ec struggled and the 150 flew through it. Have lots of that wood left over so there is a use for it - did I just answer my own question?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:14 AM by Jmacpherson »

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 08:26 AM »
Guys going to go a little off-topic here but since I'm looking at sanders I'm taking a step back and taking a long-term down the road look and a "what pairs with what" view at the same time.
Most of you own quite a few sanders and have better insight than I do.

If I go the ro150 route I don't see the benefit of having 2 rotex machines. Would it make more sense to replace the ro90 with the ro150 and dts400 since I would lose the delta option of the ro90?
Can the dts400 provide the same sanding that the rts400 would provide?

Leaving me with the ets ec/ro150/dts combo.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1971
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 09:08 PM »
Guys going to go a little off-topic here but since I'm looking at sanders I'm taking a step back and taking a long-term down the road look and a "what pairs with what" view at the same time.
Most of you own quite a few sanders and have better insight than I do.

If I go the ro150 route I don't see the benefit of having 2 rotex machines. Would it make more sense to replace the ro90 with the ro150 and dts400 since I would lose the delta option of the ro90?
Can the dts400 provide the same sanding that the rts400 would provide?

Leaving me with the ets ec/ro150/dts combo.

RO90 and DTS 400 are so different that there’s not much overlap except to say they both can sand with a Delta Pad.  DTS400 is much larger of a Delta Pad than the RO90/DX93, and is a fine sander on its own merits, esp with the newer bodied version that allows a Pad guard like a Rotex sander does around the sander.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 399
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 12:53 AM »
If your goal is just appearance and not dead nuts flat nor perfect 90 degrees,
I would reach for the RAS over the Rotex in this situation without a doubt.

Now for the RAS vs the belt sander, that I cannot answer.   My presumption is that
the belt sander may be the best choice, and follow up with a planer (just be aware that your blades are hitting embedded aluminum oxide) either way.

Is this your personal planter or is it a job for a customer?
If it's the former, I'd choose to just live with it and move on.

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 131
Re: BS 75 or RO 150
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2017, 04:45 AM »
If your goal is just appearance and not dead nuts flat nor perfect 90 degrees,
I would reach for the RAS over the Rotex in this situation without a doubt.

Now for the RAS vs the belt sander, that I cannot answer.   My presumption is that
the belt sander may be the best choice, and follow up with a planer (just be aware that your blades are hitting embedded aluminum oxide) either way.

Is this your personal planter or is it a job for a customer?
If it's the former, I'd choose to just live with it and move on.

It is for personal use.
Like you my wife said it is for the garden don't stress too much about it, don't spend too much money on it.
I've just been frustrated since box joint look requires that nice 100% square look to look nice but I made the mistake of using the wrong wood there - lesson learnt
I had a certain vision in my head and I didn't achieve it.

I've decided to try some flap discs on my small 115mm angle grinder for the worst parts and then cleanup with the ets/ro90.
It will be messy but so what, will wear a proper respirator with filters.
Tackle it with what I already own and live with the outcome.

If I choose wood wisely down the road then I shouldn't need the ro150/bs75/ras considering what I already own.
A rts/dts might be a better idea or even a 1/4 sander from bosch or makita for really narrow stock.

A big thank you to all of you for your time, insight and encouragement. Appreciate it.