Author Topic: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.  (Read 56262 times)

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Offline NWW_08

  • Posts: 12
I am definitely more of a lurker than anything.  I do have a lot invested in Festools already so I do have some of my own issues with Festool as well, which I will not go into here given where this thread is going.  I thought the original poster had a great idea that would be useful for anyone.  I certainly would have appreciated this type of information to help out as part of my purchasing decisions. Unfortunately, it appears that some people are so against any constructive criticism of the tools, it really amazes me. 

I would also say one would have to be very naive to think that those few who get free tools or are "invited" to Festool events and pretty much always/frequently talk about the tools in the most positive possible way are not part of the Festool marketing strategy.  I personally can see this very clearly.  As a sales and marketing consultant I can tell you a lot of other companies in all kinds of industries do this very same thing in one way or another.  This is an effective marketing technique because the line between "sales pitch" and  "honest user opinion" is very blurred. 

Unfortunately, this thread has mostly proved that most folks here are not interested seeing the negatives (even when they are intended to stimulate making the tools even better) along with the positives.  Which to me makes the forum far less useful to users as opposed to Festool, the company whose job it is to market the tools.

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Offline SRSemenza

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  • Posts: 8570
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The Festool jig saw has a fatal flaw:  I can't see the cut line.  Do any of you have a solution for this?  I'm thinking about selling it.  Biggest strong point is the dust collection


Hi,

         Someone on here had enlarged the opening in the front of the shroud. I can not remember who, and can not seem to do a search that will bring it up. Hopefully some one else can point you to it?   

Seth

Offline mhch

  • Posts: 371
  • Hobbyist, France
I am definitely more of a lurker than anything.  I do have a lot invested in Festools already so I do have some of my own issues with Festool as well, which I will not go into here given where this thread is going.  I thought the original poster had a great idea that would be useful for anyone.  I certainly would have appreciated this type of information to help out as part of my purchasing decisions. Unfortunately, it appears that some people are so against any constructive criticism of the tools, it really amazes me. 

I would also say one would have to be very naive to think that those few who get free tools or are "invited" to Festool events and pretty much always/frequently talk about the tools in the most positive possible way are not part of the Festool marketing strategy.  I personally can see this very clearly.  As a sales and marketing consultant I can tell you a lot of other companies in all kinds of industries do this very same thing in one way or another.  This is an effective marketing technique because the line between "sales pitch" and  "honest user opinion" is very blurred. 

Unfortunately, this thread has mostly proved that most folks here are not interested seeing the negatives (even when they are intended to stimulate making the tools even better) along with the positives.  Which to me makes the forum far less useful to users as opposed to Festool, the company whose job it is to market the tools.

Mmm, I honestly think this is a bit of an extreme and exagerated opinion
and I disagree with your statement about what most folks here are doing

If you take time to explore this site, you will, not you may, find a number of completely
Festool independent
posts from several users who came up with pretty good
solutions to problems frequently hit by other Festool users.

Among them, and this in not a complete list
- home made sysports and boom arms
- aligning and squaring the guide rails
- building miscellaneous jigs
- how to fix some tool failures or weaknesses

I would then suggest you look at these and correct your statement accordingly

Offline SRSemenza

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Hi,

       This thread  has not proved that people here are not interested in seeing the negatives. It has shown that people in disagreement can end up bickering. And that people often react poorly to another's opinions / findings when presented in a direct , blunt, to the point manner. That doesn't mean that the information is wrong.

        There is plenty of negative stuff about Festool products on this forum. It may not seem like it is negative simply because the thread discussing it is offering a solution. But the very fact that a solution is needed demonstrates that there is a problem.

               EX- threads discussing fixes to Trion visibility, fixes to the Angle Unit, work arounds for the kerf / splinter strip. All of these and  more are in fact pointing out problems, and negatives.

             Does anyone actually think that nickao is lying about his problems with Festool products?  If not then take a moment to reconsider before replying with an attack on the poster or a defense of the product.   It is fine to disagree, and maybe not everyone considers the same things to be problems in the same light, but turning the thread into a flame war is pointless.


Seth

Offline Daviddubya

  • Posts: 704
  • Arizona, USA
To borrow a word from Nick (which I criticized earlier in this thread) it is amazing to me the amount of crap that this discussion has generated.
David W. Falkenstein
in Cave Creek, AZ, USA

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
...Unfortunately, this thread has mostly proved that most folks here are not interested seeing the negatives (even when they are intended to stimulate making the tools even better) along with the positives.  Which to me makes the forum far less useful to users as opposed to Festool, the company whose job it is to market the tools.

I disagree strongly with these statements.  The fact that such a discussion happened, in full view, without moderation or censorship, proves just the opposite.  The negatives are out there for anyone to see, right along with the overwhelming positives.  I have, numerous times, made it clear that criticism is welcomed.  To be fully informed, members have to take the time to explore the forum.

For a contrast, I recently had legitimate problems with Apple products.  When I tried to post about those problems on the Apple support forum, the whole thing was deleted without comment.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline CharlesWilson

  • Posts: 458
It took 5 pages for the dust to settle, but I think this thread is finally going in the direction Nick originally intended.
Charles Wilson

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath

I bet everyone reaches for the jigsaw when making a sink cutout, why?  Let's say you have a counter installed (formica for example) with an integral backsplash.  For most over mount sinks the jigsaw won't even get close enough to the back for the cut.  I've sure seen people fight with it.  I can cut out a sink so fast and perfect using a 2" Hole saw and the TS55.  Anyone out there needs to give their rail and TS a try at this.  You can cut most of the way to the corners then I just finish the cut with a Jap saw.  If there's any fine tuning to do I use the belt sander.  It's funny that I try to even make something like this look nice even though no one else can see it.  It's just me and doesn't take but a few minutes to make it look great.

Chris...


An easy solution is to cut with the saw under the piece - then you can see exactly where the saw is cutting.  Takes about 5 minutes worth of practice.  Try it - you'll never go back. :)
that's a good idea,witch i have use before,for small pieces.
but what happen when you have to cut a sink out of a counter top?or the piece you are working with,can not be moved? or too big to turn upside down?
don't get me wrong,i like the jig saw,but i miss the dust blower like the bosch,and be able to see the line of cut. 

Offline Frank Pellow

  • Posts: 2748
  • Toronto, Ontario and Lake Pivabiska, Ontario
My biggest complaint is the incompetent Hafele monopoly that Festool has set up in Canada.

Next to that, it is making the electric connections and the vacuum connections on my Festool tools stay together.  See the thread http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=212.0 for details.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3529

I bet everyone reaches for the jigsaw when making a sink cutout, why?  Let's say you have a counter installed (formica for example) with an integral backsplash.  For most over mount sinks the jigsaw won't even get close enough to the back for the cut.  I've sure seen people fight with it.  I can cut out a sink so fast and perfect using a 2" Hole saw and the TS55.  Anyone out there needs to give their rail and TS a try at this.  You can cut most of the way to the corners then I just finish the cut with a Jap saw.  If there's any fine tuning to do I use the belt sander.  It's funny that I try to even make something like this look nice even though no one else can see it.  It's just me and doesn't take but a few minutes to make it look great.

Chris...


Chris, I'm sorry but this post is inappropriate for this thread  ;)

I suggest you re-edit it to point out the failure of the Trion jigsaw to make flush cuts to the side.

Otherwise, it is just right for the character of the FOG as it has been for most of it's existence.

Offline Brad Evans

  • Posts: 75
  • SF Bay Area
    • Urban PhotoBlog: Citysnaps
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2008, 09:39 AM »
To borrow a word from Nick (which I criticized earlier in this thread) it is amazing to me the amount of crap that this discussion has generated.

One word:  Usenet
Urban PhotoBlog:  www.citysnaps.net/blog

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2008, 10:03 AM »
Michael... That's too darn funny...  and by the way.  I'm sorry   :(

Chris...

Offline Qwas

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    • Qwas Products
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2008, 12:09 PM »
My problem is keeping the fence on the MFT square to the guide rail. After 10 cuts it is out of square. I am wasting time constantly having to check it because it can't be trusted.

My answer is to remove the fence and use bench dogs and/or a fence based on bench dogs. Use the holes and bench dogs to align the guide rail and then use the holes and bench dogs to guide the board. You can see my manual here.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 03:09 PM by Qwas »

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2008, 12:10 PM »
good luck this time.

Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2008, 02:50 PM »
My problem is keeping the fence on the MFT square to the guide rail. After 10 cuts it is out of square. I am wasting time constantly having to check it because it can't be trusted.

My answer is to remove the fence and use bench dogs and/or a fence based on bench dogs. Use the holes and bench dogs to align the guide rail and then use the holes and bench dogs to guide the board. You can see my manual here.

Your solution has popped up in several different threads so I suspect it's probably the best reliable fix.  Not a bad idea, but I think we were hoping for something better from the MFT fence (I don't own one myself, this is one reason why).  You could take the same idea and make a standard out of cabinet grade plywood, MDF or what ever grabs you to cut angles.  I realize you could then end up with a lot of plywood to manage  :-[ but it's better than not having the reliabilty for repeating cuts.

Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2008, 02:54 PM »
I have to really pick to come up with any complaints with my little sander.  When I bring it to school, the kids que up to get it first, they figured out it's better than out DeWalt or Hitachi ROS's.

I guess my only gripe is with the dust port and collection bag.  It's location is inconvenient and not east to hook up to, but this doesn't take away from the operation, quiet (OK, for a sander) low vibration, easy on the hands and really fast!

Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2008, 03:06 PM »
......Lets get off this Festool is greater then... idea. They are not........I guess I just demand more for the money.


I have to agree with Nick, for the money spent many of these issues should be non-existent.  The manuals are absolute garbage in any of the 6 languages presented.  The video demos are pretty thin when you can find them, they ought to look at what videos that "other guided saw guy" puts out on youtube.

I have always griped about the cost vs return of many festool accessories..... that's why I own so few Festools.  I love what I have though.  :-*

I never bought a festool vac because of the cost.  I use my big shop vac and bought a big drywall dust bag plus a HEPA cartridge filter to go with it.  OK, so it's probably not as quiet or convenient, but the vac was $50.00 and the filters are CHEAP when compared to festools AND I can sand indoors dust free.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2008, 03:49 PM »
I have to really pick to come up with any complaints with my little sander.  When I bring it to school, the kids que up to get it first, they figured out it's better than out DeWalt or Hitachi ROS's.

I guess my only gripe is with the dust port and collection bag.  It's location is inconvenient and not east to hook up to, but this doesn't take away from the operation, quiet (OK, for a sander) low vibration, easy on the hands and really fast!


I like how you put the ETS 125 in the heading  Steve, if everyone can change/ add to the heading  the tool they are referring to it may help.

It may be easier to see the different tools we are talking about in this thread as one scans through the find the tool they want info on in the future.

Nick



Hi,

       I am not trying to pull this thread into a discussion of its function. But I think the point about putting the product name in the subject line of the post is important.  It will make it easier to do searches . Because it is possible to search just the subjects, there by eliminating a lot of posts that just mention a tool with out really being about that tool.   It will make it easier to scan this thread in the future and find  only what concerns  your particular problem also.

Seth

Offline clintholeman

  • Posts: 301
  • Sonoma County, CA
    • Clint Holeman, Fine Furniture and Cabinets
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2008, 03:55 PM »
It's funny that I try to even make something like this look nice even though no one else can see it.  It's just me and doesn't take but a few minutes to make it look great.

Chris...

Ahh, but you know it is done right.  And that makes all the difference...

Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2008, 04:32 PM »
..... Its like a cheerleading team for Festool. .....

The FOG Blog  reminds me of the Easy Blog on SMC.  They'll try to convince you the product is so good it will do the work for you and clean up after itself. 

Not that there isn't good information on either site, but they can go over the top at times in their professed love and defence of the product.

An earlier poster said that threads like this were ignored by manufacturers and I have to disagree.  Threads like this can be a gold mine for real infomation on product issues. 

After all, it's hard to get good, constructive criticism from the choir.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2008, 04:38 PM »
..... Its like a cheerleading team for Festool. .....

The FOG Blog  reminds me of the Easy Blog on SMC.  They'll try to convince you the product is so good it will do the work for you and clean up after itself. 

Not that there isn't good information on either site, but they can go over the top at times in their professed love and defence of the product.

An earlier poster said that threads like this were ignored by manufacturers and I have to disagree.  Threads like this can be a gold mine for real infomation on product issues. 

After all, it's hard to get good, constructive criticism from the choir.

I'll step in again to say I disagree with any characterization of this forum as cheerleaders or a "choir."  There are certainly a lot of positive comments here, but I'm not sure what else you would expect from people who like these tools.

At the same time, there have been plenty of open discussions about how the tools could be better.  None of it has ever been off limits or controlled in the least.  In fact, I welcome it.  Even further, the CEO of Festool has come in here to answer members' (customers') criticism and questions.

If you have specific comments or suggestions that can be used to improve the tools, or the services behind the tools, by all means tell us what you think.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Online mastercabman

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  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2008, 05:00 PM »

I bet everyone reaches for the jigsaw when making a sink cutout, why?  Let's say you have a counter installed (formica for example) with an integral backsplash.  For most over mount sinks the jigsaw won't even get close enough to the back for the cut.  I've sure seen people fight with it.  I can cut out a sink so fast and perfect using a 2" Hole saw and the TS55.  Anyone out there needs to give their rail and TS a try at this.  You can cut most of the way to the corners then I just finish the cut with a Jap saw.  If there's any fine tuning to do I use the belt sander.  It's funny that I try to even make something like this look nice even though no one else can see it.  It's just me and doesn't take but a few minutes to make it look great.

Chris...


An easy solution is to cut with the saw under the piece - then you can see exactly where the saw is cutting.  Takes about 5 minutes worth of practice.  Try it - you'll never go back. :)
that's a good idea,witch i have use before,for small pieces.
but what happen when you have to cut a sink out of a counter top?or the piece you are working with,can not be moved? or too big to turn upside down?
don't get me wrong,i like the jig saw,but i miss the dust blower like the bosch,and be able to see the line of cut. 
very interesting!  sure when you deal with post form tops,the best way is to cut upside down,but i don't deal too much with post form.when i do,the sink is allready cut out.
i deal with self edge  laminated tops,and sometime those tops can be very long.not very smart to turn it upside down to cut the sink out.
i have seen people using circular saw,i also used a circular saw before,but i've run into some staples and corrugated fastener and it was not pretty!
i bet you i can cut a sink out faster with my jigsaw.
by the time you set up with your tools.you need your drill with hole saw,and then your ts 55 with the fence.   
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline jakiiski

  • Posts: 84
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #112 on: May 28, 2008, 05:25 PM »
TS75/55 - copy the anti-tilt feature from Makita's railsaw - the precious saws can easily drop off the rail if you loose your grip on them when saw is set at an angle.

- J

Offline Brad Evans

  • Posts: 75
  • SF Bay Area
    • Urban PhotoBlog: Citysnaps
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2008, 06:47 PM »
>>>   All I wanted was one place where someone can go and search the complaints, problems and suggested modifications for the entire line of Festools. From packaging to a finger switch being to tight.

Is this for the benefit of Festool for tool improvement?  If so, perhaps email is the best way to communicate complaints, problems and suggested modifications.

If it's for potential tool buyers and current owners, then...

I'm sorry, but it's difficult seeing this as being useful.  Putting this information in a single large thread, with the idea that it will grow with time and be all-inclusive for all tools, is not a good idea, IMO.  What you're proposing is best handled with specific tool FAQs.  But for that to be effective, FAQs need to be managed, edited and maintained with time so that only the essential is distilled.

Many people discover tool nits and work-arounds over time and start new threads with that relevant information - there are years of information here.  The search box is good for finding these.  A monster thread covering all tools and interspersed with comments about different tools appended at different times will not be very helpful - even if all the previous contributions could be encapsulated and assuming this thread did not disappear of the page due to inactivity.

Perhaps working with the moderator to develop a tool-specific structure and forum category that would truly be useful would yield better and more useful information.

Personally, when I'm researching a tool, the search function is my friend and I use it extensively. Over the years I've developed a feel for contributors whose judgement I trust and with which I weigh tool comments accordingly.




Urban PhotoBlog:  www.citysnaps.net/blog

Offline Steveo48

  • Posts: 305
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2008, 07:33 PM »
.....i bet you i can cut a sink out faster with my jigsaw by the time you set up with your tools.you need your drill with hole saw,and then your ts 55 with the fence.   

I do believe this falls into the catagory of less is better.  I must confess to using my sawzall for the last sink I cut out.

Online mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2008, 07:36 PM »
.....i bet you i can cut a sink out faster with my jigsaw by the time you set up with your tools.you need your drill with hole saw,and then your ts 55 with the fence.   

I do believe this falls into the catagory of less is better.  I must confess to using my sawzall for the last sink I cut out.
and pretty fast too!!!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline ryansmythe

  • Posts: 38
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2008, 07:47 PM »
ratcheting collet on the OF1010.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #117 on: May 29, 2008, 08:17 AM »
Everyone,
I found out this morning that Nick has chosen to delete his FOG account.
I'm posting this so people know not to address notes directly to him any more.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2008, 08:17 AM »
Everyone,
I found out this morning that Nick has chosen to delete his FOG account.
I'm posting this so people know not to address notes directly to him any more.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline d.epstein

  • Posts: 19
Re: Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.
« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2008, 08:36 AM »
..... Its like a cheerleading team for Festool. .....

The FOG Blog  reminds me of the Easy Blog on SMC.  They'll try to convince you the product is so good it will do the work for you and clean up after itself. 

Not that there isn't good information on either site, but they can go over the top at times in their professed love and defence of the product.

An earlier poster said that threads like this were ignored by manufacturers and I have to disagree.  Threads like this can be a gold mine for real infomation on product issues. 

After all, it's hard to get good, constructive criticism from the choir.

The ez forum is nothing like the FOG.