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Author Topic: Custom Systainer inserts using 3D printing  (Read 9053 times)
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fritter63

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« on: March 26, 2011, 12:22 AM »

I've been doing a little research into the use of 3D printing to produce custom systainer inserts.

If you aren't familiar with 3D printing and what's been going on lately, you should be. Recent innovations and breakthroughs have placed us
on the verge of a 3D printing revolution that is poised to dwarf the impacts of the industrial revolution. If you don't keep up, you're going to
look like that blacksmith in 1900 saying "people will never go for this mass produced factory stuff"….
(Disclaimer: I currently hold a small "long" position in Stratasys, a supplier of 3D plastic print stock)

Stepping off the soapbox….

We've had discussions regarding foam inserts, and even the CaseCAD place for doing 3d design of foam cutouts, to a tutorial (on TalkFestool)
about making your own vacuum forms…. but I wanted to see if I could take it to the "next level" (buzzword alert!) and get something nice and efficient
like how the Festool inserts overlay all their parts, etc. Using 3D printing I would hope to get a better use of space without having to leave all that foam
thickness.

The promise of 3D printing is that it will be inexpensive to produce custom "things" for yourself on your desktop 3D printer.

So let's see what can be done:

First, using Sketchup, I drew a simple shape that should look familiar:



Then I placed a cutout in it for my special wrench that I want to put in a systainer (it's a very special wrench!):



Of course, we want this to be hollow similar to the vacuum molded inserts:



Here's the cool part, we can also put in overlays for efficient use of space. Here, I've cut in an overlay insert above the
wrench for storage of another part. The purpose of this cutout is actually just intended to generate lots of FOG threads discussing
what it could be intended for.



Certainly, it would be cumbersome to have to manually draw the shape of any tool you want to put in there. But another breakthrough that has been occurring
is 3D scanning. MakerBot actually sells a kit which let's you make a 3D scanner that you could use to get the shapes of any object into 3D space. Once in there,
you could "intersect" it with the inlay model to have a custom, perfect fit for any part you want in the tray.

Anyway, for completeness, here is an x-ray view of the insert:



Personally, what I envision is a set of stacking, custom inserts that let me efficiently put together a tool kit. Similar to what Seth has shown us with
his wood stackables, or like the centrotec kits. This would be a great way to get a lot of tools into a systainer 2 or 3, and be able to get easy access to them
once needed.

These would not need to be limited to systainers, of course. You could also make custom trays for the drawers of the traditional mechanics toolchests
that I use for a lot of my smaller tools.

So, now we've got this insert, we just need to find a way to print it. There are two options:

   - buy our own desktop 3D printer
   - outsource it to a 3D printing service

Let's try the second approach first, since I'm not really ready to get into the business of messing with printers:

First, I uploaded the model to ShapeWays.com, which is cool because they will automatically give you a price for printing it. Here are the
results of that:



Holy Smelly Cow! That must be one special wrench! Even though I made the walls all 2 mm thick (the minimum recommended), it's still a lot of material. They charge upwards of $2/ cubic cm, and that's where the cost comes from.

Let's try it at i.Materialize….



OK, well that's better, but still too steep to justify. Maybe I can remove some material from the sides:



That brought the price at ShapeWays down by about $30. Extrapolating that out to the rest of the surfaces, it would take about $180 off the cost.
That makes it a $450 insert. Of course, I could do a better job of removing material, that was just a quick hack job on the circles. Ideally you would use
hexagons and triangles to make it all more like a bridge, I'm sure I could cut that number down by half with a little work, but that's still $200+ dollars.

So the outsourced printing is still pretty expensive, and in reality I think they're geared more towards prototypes for traditional manufacturing. Still, it's cool
that if you had to do something like this, you could.

Let's look at option 1, getting your own desktop printer. The two that I've looked at briefly are the MakerBot ($1000) and the BotMill ($1300). Those are actually
very reasonable prices. Remember when the first IBM PC came out? It was $10,000 (without a hard drive!). But that price came down very quickly, and 3D printers
are expected to do the same. Once you've got your own printer, the actual materials cost is about 10 cents per cubic cm. That's 1/19th of the ShapeWays cost,
so printing that same insert would cost anwhere from $10 to $23!!!!

So there is hope, you just need a good excuse to buy a 3D printer!

At that point there is only one big problem, neither of these printers has a print area large enough to make a systainer insert in one pass. With the BotMill however, you could print it in quarters and then have them snap together (you can do that when you're designing and printing in 3D!

What else could you do with this technology? I've been wanting to build one of these,
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=131
 designed by Roger Savatteri. I've emailed him to see if he's selling them,
and got no response, so he seems to have abandoned it. Would be great to make it in ABS for accuracy rather than having to mill it myself.

I'm sure there are other jigs that could be done.
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PaulMarcel

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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2011, 02:22 AM »

Love the ideas!  3-D printing will definitely be going mainstream relatively quickly.  The civil engineering field loves it, architects, and even archeologists.  Capacity is the biggest cost issue.

Wonder what one of those printers will do if you walk up to it and say, "Earl Grey, hot"?
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fritter63

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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2011, 03:09 AM »


Wonder what one of those printers will do if you walk up to it and say, "Earl Grey, hot"?

"Working..."
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Mauri Motti

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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 04:53 AM »

For those that have no idea what this is all about, here a short introduction to the Makerbot 950 dollar cupcake CNC printer
Link
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Mauri Motti

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 04:57 AM »


Here's the cool part, we can also put in overlays for efficient use of space. Here, I've cut in an overlay insert above the
wrench for storage of another part. The purpose of this cutout is actually just intended to generate lots of FOG threads discussing
what it could be intended for.



LOL!  Thumbs Up
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Eli

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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 07:36 AM »

Very cool. I like where you're going with this.
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Brice Burrell

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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2011, 08:30 AM »

Very cool. I like where you're going with this.

Me too, I'll get back to this thread in 3-4 years when it's feasible cost effective. Big Grin
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GhostFist

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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 10:08 AM »

I have to say a grand isn't a lot to ask for something like this when you consider it's uses. I'll be keeping my eye on this tech
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 10:29 AM »

I have to say a grand isn't a lot to ask for something like this when you consider it's uses. I'll be keeping my eye on this tech

correct, cheaper than a Kapex.  Woo hoo    Cool
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SRSemenza
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 10:40 AM »

Hi,

This looks awesome !!! Shouldn't be all that long ( a year ? two? )before we see resonably priced services for this popping up.


Just for the record --- the stackable wood inserts are Frank Pellows not mine.

Seth
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Frank Pellow

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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 10:47 AM »

Thanks.  It's good to see where this technology might be achieving for us some day.
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ccarrolladams

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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 11:25 AM »

Equipment to produce protective inserts for shipping cases has been available since the late 1960s, several years before the establishment of ATA standards.

Even before that happened in late 1973 sample case manufacturers used foam inserts. Custom cutting was typically done using hot wire in the hands of skilled workers, not unlike using a bench jigsaw freehand.

Way back when longer runs of foam inserts were cut using steel rule dies, similar to those used to cut paper products, except the dies were deeper.

Eventually ways were found to control the hot wire using CNC technology.
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unityroad

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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 12:17 PM »

sounds like another sony beta recorder. so advanced it will go bye bye. The way inserts are now made is with presses and rollers and the humble razor blade. However I could be wrong........just ask my wife. Shocked
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 12:36 PM »

How does this differ from the rapid prototyping machines of a couple of decades ago? Is it the same technology using lasers and photosensitive materials?


Tom
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jonny round boy

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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 12:58 PM »

How does this differ from the rapid prototyping machines of a couple of decades ago? Is it the same technology using lasers and photosensitive materials?


Tom

Tom,

It's a different technology, at least for the smaller, cheaper home machines.

Basically, the raw material is a thermo-plastic in reels (a bit like fishing line) that's fed through a heated tip that moves, depositing molten plastic in fine layers that slowly build up into a 3D object.
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fritter63

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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 01:00 PM »

How does this differ from the rapid prototyping machines of a couple of decades ago? Is it the same technology using lasers and photosensitive materials?


Tom

There are also printers doing laser sintering, which I think is what you're referring to.
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fritter63

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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2011, 01:01 PM »

Forgot to mention, one of the material options at shapeways is stainless steel! Have a drink before you look at the price.
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2011, 01:21 PM »

Yes, laser sintering. It's been a long time since I even thought about that.


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fritter63

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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2011, 01:31 PM »

sounds like another sony beta recorder. so advanced it will go bye bye. The way inserts are now made is with presses and rollers and the humble razor blade. However I could be wrong........just ask my wife. Shocked

I just asked your wife and she said you're definitely wrong!  Big Grin

Yes, that works good for mass produced, large quantity similar items. But that's why you only get the generic type inserts like "tray for small bits". What we're talking about here is the ability to custom taylor inserts (or anything else for that matter) to exactly your needs. That can't be done in a cost effective way with current manufacturing techniques, and that is the promise that 3D printing holds.
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2011, 04:44 PM »

For those that have no idea what this is all about, here a short introduction to the Makerbot 950 dollar cupcake CNC printer

That was awesome... it even had a tag on it "Earl Grey, hot" Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2011, 05:14 PM »

i use 3d printing all the time, or additive manufacturing. i have also used the latest sintering processes. great stuff for certain ideas.it is great but i can not think of a much more expensive solution for the insert issue.  unless you are thinking about mold making to blow form these and even then there are better ways of getting there. do not get me wrong i love the tech but not for tool inserts
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2011, 05:30 PM »

When I finished doing my 3D solid modeling CAD course in 2000, our lecturer showed us a vidio of a 3D printer that sprayed material forming a 3 dimentional object. that had been designed using cad software. we all thought what great idea 11years ago.
I think it may take more than a couple of years before it's going to be in our local PC World.
Great idea though, I hope I am wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2011, 05:31 PM »

For those that have no idea what this is all about, here a short introduction to the Makerbot 950 dollar cupcake CNC printer

That was awesome... it even had a tag on it "Earl Grey, hot" Smiley

Paul, that's for a bit later when quantum physics will be combined  Big Grin
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fritter63

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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2011, 02:34 AM »

Someone on the ShapeWays forums had a different idea on how to remove material and "meshize" the print:



He says this one would print for about $30. I was pretty excited until I read that the size of this is 100 x 60, less and 1/4 the size of a systainer footprint (~390 x ~290).

Still, a promising approach I think.

Continuing the thought experiment....
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tallgrass

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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2011, 04:38 AM »

i feel your pain... Big Grin it is a great technology. as i have said before i use it all the time, it has it uses but this particular idea is a tough one.
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fritter63

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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2011, 02:21 PM »

Just a quick follow up to this regarding my idea of using 3D scanning to model the tools you want to make inserts for so they  can be custom "subtracted" from the insert model. It is now possible to do 3D scanning with a $1 iPhone app (with additional $5 in app purchase!):

iPhone 3D scanning app

This is getting pretty cool.
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2011, 09:42 AM »

Another choice that may be cheaper is www.casecad.com.  They do custom CNC foam routing.

You download the software, draw out your foam insert, and upload it.  You can print out a life-size preview to test the fit.  They CNC route it and mail it back to you.  I had a Pelican case done by them and it turned out very well.  Depending on the complexity, it can get a bit expensive too - such is the reality of custom work.
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2011, 01:52 PM »

I believe the price for 3D printers will drop substantially when they start using large 3D printers to build smaller 3D printers.  Tongue Out
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fritter63

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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 07:31 PM »

Just a bump/update on this topic.

I've been keeping an eye on the 3D printing industry. Makerbot has been making big waves in the news lately with their new "Replicator" and prices are coming down.

With the Replicator print area, it would now be possible to make Systainer inserts in 4 "snap  together" parts for a reasonable cost (if you're willing to spring for the printer itself.

And now it looks like the Germans are getting involved and bringing some great innovations to the accuracy of the prints:

Fabster launch

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Kev

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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2012, 04:13 AM »

Just a bump/update on this topic.

I've been keeping an eye on the 3D printing industry. Makerbot has been making big waves in the news lately with their new "Replicator" and prices are coming down.

With the Replicator print area, it would now be possible to make Systainer inserts in 4 "snap  together" parts for a reasonable cost (if you're willing to spring for the printer itself.

And now it looks like the Germans are getting involved and bringing some great innovations to the accuracy of the prints:

Fabster launch




Thanks for bumping this thread, I hadn't read it till now.

3D printing and other "personal manufacturing" technologies are going to create an interesting future for us all. There'll be a point where it'll sweep through both the small inventor and modeller space ... then expand, as technology permits, to places we can't today imagine.

The world of copyright is also going to get smashed.

Take a little example ... imagine the tiny plastic figures used on some of the strategy board games ... then imagine cheap bulk 3D print material from China with appropriate 3D print data to make them  Eek!

I can't wait for the technology to be cost viable - but I don't think any of us truly understand the changes it could bring about.

Consider a continuous length 3D printer, capable of producing decorative cornice or skirting ... all of a sudden your profiles can have complex multidimensional surfaces ... the can be customised for corners, etc. We're standing on the very tip of the iceberg!
 
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