Author Topic: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?  (Read 2706 times)

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Offline DeformedTree

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Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« on: June 10, 2018, 01:53 PM »
I touched on this on my question about metric tools returning, but I wanted to ask this as a stand alone question to dealers.

Since Festool won't currently sell tools with proper metric scales in North America, and thinks it is acceptable to require buyers to send brand new tools in for repair and pay for it (and presumably have to register along the way), maybe there is a stop gap solution.

Have any dealers considered working with Festool to have batches of tools shipped to them pre-converted? This may not be a practical option for smaller shops, but for those who get tools in decent size batches, if they are being shipped from Festool USA to you, have you considered having Festool USA pre-convert some of them before shipping them out?  Then offering these up at regular price.  This saves shipping and hassle and reduces the general anger of the situation.  Maybe as part of this report back to Festool on how they sell.

There certainly is room for 1 or 2 shops to do this.  It would also make for a quick way to show Festool that thinking all North Americans are inch only is a awful stereotype.  I'm sure Festool tool owners who have a lot of pre-inch tools would like a straightforward path to continue with metric only tools verses shipping tools back and forth, or just giving up on Festool in anger.

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Offline denovo

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 02:14 PM »
Festool would still be incurring the cost of converting the tools after they have been shipping from Germany.  Therefore expecting them to sell them for the same price as non-converted tools would be unrealistic.  Would dealers be able to sell a new metric TS-55 for $100 over the current retail price is probably something they wouldn't be willing to risk.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 03:05 PM »
I doubt you will find any dealers willing to do this whereas it would cost them out of pocket.

While the whole metric vs imperial debate /situation seems to be important to some - and I was one of those initially, I found that myself , who has all metric versions, rarely use the scale on the tools (TS-55, OF 1400).  I use the Fastfix to set my depth for plywood and adjust by eye the other saw cuts depth-wise.  For routing I adjust by eye or other means.

Peter

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 03:45 PM »
I doubt you will find any dealers willing to do this whereas it would cost them out of pocket.

While the whole metric vs imperial debate /situation seems to be important to some - and I was one of those initially, I found that myself , who has all metric versions, rarely use the scale on the tools (TS-55, OF 1400).  I use the Fastfix to set my depth for plywood and adjust by eye the other saw cuts depth-wise.  For routing I adjust by eye or other means.

Peter

While I'm sure most folks most the time are not relying on them, it's nice to have them there, but it's also about not seeing inches on a tool. If Festool just removed all markings on the tools, that would have probably been fine. Picking up a tool and having the manufacture insulting you every time you see and and knowing you paid for it is not desirable situation.  Just like anything else, if it has inches on it, don't buy it.  But in the case of power tools there are not many options and this was one of the things they had going for them.  There is still plenty to like with what Festool has, this is just wrong on many levels.  There is really one one other option in the US right now, and that company sells a nice saw, but really nothing else.

If the dealers charged extra for them, that would be ok, it still saves folks a lot of hassle.  Of course in the end if Festool just allowed folks to special order the tools that would fix it too.

I would be really curious if a Dealer would go for this.  I doubt the first dealer to try would have an issue moving the inventory.  The biggest issue is the natural one that they are selling a tool that says it's one thing but is now something else and has been repaired before even being sold.  But under the circumstances I think most folks would understand.

Did Festool when making this change explicitly tell dealers they would not support such an initiative?

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2018, 04:40 PM »
Festool would still be incurring the cost of converting the tools after they have been shipping from Germany.  Therefore expecting them to sell them for the same price as non-converted tools would be unrealistic.  Would dealers be able to sell a new metric TS-55 for $100 over the current retail price is probably something they wouldn't be willing to risk.

You can order them from directly from Europe . Axminster ships to the USA

https://www.axminster.co.uk

Here’s a 3rd party not to bad pricing

https://www.parcelmonkey.com/quick-shipping-calculator/results
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 04:57 PM by jobsworth »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2018, 05:24 PM »

You can order them from directly from Europe .


Correct and something I have considered (I'm new to trying to find how/where to buy things outside of the US).  It's a solution, but sadly since Festool doesn't sell tools direct in the US, it means a US based dealer is loosing a sale because of something Festool did.  I'd much prefer reserve such paths for NAINA type stuff.  Also it means buying a US cord separately and is probably even harder to resell used in the US as now it's not even a North American PN.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2018, 05:45 PM »

You can order them from directly from Europe .


Correct and something I have considered (I'm new to trying to find how/where to buy things outside of the US).  It's a solution, but sadly since Festool doesn't sell tools direct in the US, it means a US based dealer is loosing a sale because of something Festool did.  I'd much prefer reserve such paths for NAINA type stuff.  Also it means buying a US cord separately and is probably even harder to resell used in the US as now it's not even a North American PN.

...And there won't be warranty coverage.


Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 12:13 AM »

...And there won't be warranty coverage.

Correct, but in the end

1) Looking at their warranty there is any number of reason they could decide not to honor the warranty even if US bought.

2) Tools shouldn't be failing in the first place, if it dies, it's going to be much more unlikely I buy another one, under warranty or not.  I own many power tools, never have I did a warranty claim on any of them. I've only broke 1 power tool, and that tool ~5 years of hard abuse and the death blow was my fault doing something with it I shouldn't have (impact drivers are not drills :P)

3) If a tool had an issue, what matters isn't the warranty, but that I can get the part and repair it myself.

4) I'm pretty sure Festool would void my warranty anyways since I maintain my tools, which means they get regular heavy tear downs, cleaning, inspect if anything is suspect, etc.  Reading their warranty rules, it looks like I'd be foul of them from the get go. Of course, any lawyer would hit them up with Magnuson Moss warranty act  violations if they wanted to go that route.

5) If something breaks, I'm going to figure out what went wrong and fix it, which very well could mean modifications or replacing parts with better components.


Warrenties are nice and all, but they don't really matter, and for most people once the sale is over they forget about the warranty anyways, they are sales gimmicks, there is a reason high quality stuff generally has almost no warranty and junk offers extreme warranties (lifetime warranty all new Chryslers a few years back).    Being able to buy replacement parts if needed, and the tools being of serviceable designs are far more important than loss of a warrenty.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 09:56 AM »
When I was in the UK I had a issue with my RO150. It was out of warranty anyway, so i just sent it in to Festool Service and they repaired it. Sure I had to pay for the repair. But it wasnt that much considering the cost of a new one.

As I said once before on a simular thread, when we were only getting metric tools there were a lot of complaints from NA why can't we get Imperial tools. Now we get imperial tools and folks are complaining why cant we get metric ones.

To me it doesnt matter. Just measure mark and cut.

No biggie
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:59 AM by jobsworth »

Offline grbmds

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 01:24 PM »
@DeformedTree There may be a number of reasons listed in the warranty for not covering repairs, but I personally haven't ever had a warranty repair not covered. I suspect abuse is probably the main reason a repair would be excluded from the warranty. I will admit that my experience with warranty coverage has been limited because I have had very few problems  with the tools within or outside the warranty period.

I also kind of resented the turn-around by Festool after they pushed their metric tools in the US. However, Peter is right when he says that the scales aren't all that important. I may use them a bit more on the Dominos since the Domino tenons are metric. With most tools, just use some kind of gauge to suit the particular work; either made myself, the Dominos themselves, or a gauge I own. Using an actual piece of wood from the project to gauge the depth is more accurate. The only time I use the gauge on the TS55 is when I'm cutting on the MFT and want to be close to the thickness of the wood so I make a through cut without cutting through the table.

Just my opinion but, my point is, getting a metric gauge on the tool is certainly not worth losing the warranty.
Randy

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 09:56 PM »

Just my opinion but, my point is, getting a metric gauge on the tool is certainly not worth losing the warranty.

A lot of it has to do with how you view it, if you just see it as one thing verses the other, etc. Then yes.

But if you see it as an ethical issue, and view putting inch marks on something as an act along the same vein as racial stereotyping,  derogatory acts towards people,  and in general supporting the holding back of society, then things change a lot.

If dodge went and painted confederate flags on the roof of all Dodge Chargers with no option not to have it on the basis that there are a lot of people who love the General Lee, that wouldn't go over well. The argument that it doesn't matter to the function of the car so it doesn't matter wouldn't work. And if when you said ok, time to head to a different brand, just to find out they either don't offer similar cars, or those who did decided to paint confederate flags on the roofs too for no reason other than thinking thats apparently what people want, you would start to get really annoyed.

It's not about the hassle of using inch tools (though that is an issue), it's about ethics and seeing a company that had it right and was doing good in this country by not falling into the trappings of others and doing the right thing, and then decided that they would go backwards and tell everyone in North America that they are not like the rest of the world, that North Americans are lesser people, and will force everyone to go backwards.  I think Festool is a good company and makes nice products, which is what adds to the problem of this action.  The whole reason I discovered them was trying to find metric tools, and as a bonus they had some very nice tools. It showed they were ahead of the curve to the traditional brands in the US, but they blew it. 

Having inch based stuff forced on us because old people don't like change got old long ago mixed with indifference is not acceptable.  Not being able to bring in to country in a practical sense a lot of global products simply because the some industries forced inch stuff onto the US and refused to change deny's people in this country of a lot of stuff.  Just look at plumbing, PEX was introduced in the height of metric conversion in the US, but some how the trades convinced companies to modify it all to match US inch based stuff, even though it was all new.  End result plumbing parts from around the world can't be used in the US easily.  US buyers get stuck with a limited number of products.   Generating excuses or letting inch based stuff live has serious consequences from jobs, to economics to allowing people choice in what they buy.  It's a responsibility of everyone to eliminate usage of inch based measurement and products.  And of course so much around us is in fact metric, people just don't realize it because it gets relabeled and such.  So people think the conversion would be hard.  In reality they US could become fully metric in maybe a day with a little bit of prep.

Offline Corwin

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 11:17 PM »
It's an Imperial scale where there had been a metric scale. No ethics were injured during the switch.  [dead horse] [dead horse] [dead horse]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Coen

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 01:48 AM »
I can't believe Festool let this rot for so long.  [eek]

Their whole system is based around ease of use... except for NA customers apparently who have to put up with some medieval measurement system!?  [huh]

All in all that lock of that ridiculous system on their land is costing the Americans... year by year. Note that many college textbooks are sold in a US version with imperial units (+$$$$) and a cheaper "international edition [not for sale in the US!]".

Selling them European tools with metric scale, then switching to imperial... I consider it an act of cruelty.

I doubt you will find any dealers willing to do this whereas it would cost them out of pocket.

While the whole metric vs imperial debate /situation seems to be important to some - and I was one of those initially, I found that myself , who has all metric versions, rarely use the scale on the tools (TS-55, OF 1400).  I use the Fastfix to set my depth for plywood and adjust by eye the other saw cuts depth-wise.  For routing I adjust by eye or other means.

Peter

If it's so non-important... why does Festool bother to stick on a different -wrong- scale by default for the Americans? Let those that insist on sticking to a dying standard pay additional $ for their nonsense.

Imperial is completely ridiculous, especially since they all pegged it to metric anyway. Inch; fixed at 25.4mm. The English have now 100 Pence in the pound, no longer 240. Etc. So all it really boils down to is an additional completely useless layer complicating everyday life  [huh]. Just think about how many hours are wasted by people all around the world converting to that death standard and the amount of errors that inherently results in. Black and Decker couldn't even get it's conversion table right on it's European workmate...

Here, let me throw in a few things where that useless layer turned out to be rather costly;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
(Boeing 767 loaded with X lbs of fuel instead of kg... resulting in a a dangerous emergency glide landing)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
("software supplied by Lockheed Martin produced results in a United States customary unit, contrary to its Software Interface Specification")

The steam locomotive was turned over to the museum... because we found better ways that were cheaper, faster, cleaner, safer. The imperial system belongs there too, in a display case, for children to make fun of the silly things grandpa had to deal with.

While we're at it; "Daylight Saving Time" belongs there too, but that's not something Festool is holding back.  [big grin]

Just put on the metric scale by default and include a $0.05 sticker for those that fancy a medieval system. Sticking it off by a few 1/64th of an inch fits perfectly with medieval accuracy and completes that ecosystem nicely. Or tape it over the metric scale as part of some protection foil.. "remove before use".

Now, the good thing; there is no such thing as imperial Torx  [laughing]


You can order them from directly from Europe .


Correct and something I have considered (I'm new to trying to find how/where to buy things outside of the US).  It's a solution, but sadly since Festool doesn't sell tools direct in the US, it means a US based dealer is loosing a sale because of something Festool did.  I'd much prefer reserve such paths for NAINA type stuff.  Also it means buying a US cord separately and is probably even harder to resell used in the US as now it's not even a North American PN.

Just send a whole bunch of dealers an email and ask them for metric scale. If enough people do that Festool will get the message.

If you have a valid complaint and repeat it often enough, sometimes even big organizations will listen.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 02:23 AM by Coen »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 02:15 PM »
I can't believe Festool let this rot for so long.  [eek]

All in all that lock of that ridiculous system on their land is costing the Americans... year by year. Note that many college textbooks are sold in a US version with imperial units (+$$$$) and a cheaper "international edition [not for sale in the US!]".


So imperial units in US text books is becoming un-common.  Even as a kid, they barely touched on imperial units because they were going away.  This is in part why once you get to people under 50 years old in the US, imperial units (and their often partner in crime fractions) become very confusing and annoying for the population.  I have no idea what quarts/pints etc are and how they all roll up into gallons.  I don't understand tablespoons/teaspoons etc either.  I understand Liters,  grams, etc because that's what we were taught.   Go to college in the US, you are taught in metric/SI.  Older textbooks often have both, but newer ones are generally 100% SI.  Almost all my engineering classes forbid the use of Imperial units, and if their were problems in the book using them, they were all skipped.  One of the common things was to start the first day of a class off with an example problem using imperial units. It was done to show how bad using imperial units were and in some instances to show where mistakes that could lead to disaster/death could happen that could basically be fully explained from using obsolete imperial units.   You got X Btu's of heat and Y tons of cooling the system is going to need Z horsepower to run.   ???

The next big thing in universities is getting paper changed.  Conversion to ISO216 (A series) paper  is going worse than getting rid of inches.  Most folks have no idea what those marks of A4, A5 etc are on the copier.   Just buying a Package of A4 in the US is hard.  But universities have stepped up, many only putting A4 in the lab printers,  requiring hard copies of stuff be on A4.  Since any research paper has to be on ISO216 paper formatted, they have expanded it out to everything to push the change.   You also see more companies when it comes to manuals for things no longer making special North American versions and instead just leaving it up to the user to print it on the right size paper.  Still, I've worked government contracts that explicitly stated drawings must be ISO216 paper sizes, those driving the boat just ignored it.  Which is the case for a lot of stuff, by law it is to be metric and people just ignore it and no one is punished.  My industry by law is suppose to be metric, it just gets ignored, and people make the same excuses as you will see many here say.

In the end, we are fighting a generational issue.  Those calling the shots don't want change, they are dying off, but they still keep making decisions with long term results.  The younger you are, the more you either want the US to be metric everywhere, or you at least are fine either way.  Anyone in any form of technical field hates imperial units and most never use them at work.  Even fields that people mention here for reason to stay with inches you see this.  I've had contractors at my house and this has come up, universal they want to get rid of inches and they work in metric when thats an option (products make metric units clear). But you get an old guy, yeah, they only want inches.  I have family members who were part of construction trades, once they used metric stuff on some jobs, they never wanted to go back and saw how dumb using inch based stuff was.



Global markets/reality keep chipping away at inches in the US. Fairly recently industry was finally allowed to drop imperial units from packaging, so they could make their packaging SI only. As economies around the world grow, the US economy becomes a smaller part of it. This makes doing things specific the US market less economically feasible.  This is where Festool had it right, and the change to inches just makes zero sense.  They went backwards, where other tool companies just haven't made that last step to not put Inch labels on their tools even though the tools are metric design.  Their competitors haven't made that one last step forwards, where Festool decided to take a step backwards.  While it may look like they should be seen the same was as other brands are, it's how they go there that makes a key difference.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:48 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline Coen

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2018, 09:01 PM »
Interesting. The university textbook for mechanics (Hibbeler, from Pearson) used here (the SI version) is bloated with appearances of imperial units, where they seem to have translated only half an example.

One level lower they use an even more expensive Dutch language version of the same... where Pearson stacked the translation errors on top of that  [blink]
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:49 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 10:02 PM »
I have no idea what quarts/pints etc are and how they all roll up into gallons.  I don't understand tablespoons/teaspoons etc either.

Actually liquid measures are really very easy.
1 pinch = 1/8 tsp
1 dash = 1/4 tsp
1 tsp = 1/3 Tbl
3 tsp = 1 Tbl = 1/2 oz =  1/16 cup
6 tsp = 2 Tbl = 1 oz = 1/8 cup
2 tsp + 2 Tbl = 1 1/3 oz = 1/6 cup
12 tsp = 4 Tbl = 2 oz = 1/4 cup
1 tsp + 5 Tbl = 2 2/3 oz = 1/3 cup
24 tsp = 8 Tbl = 4 oz =1/2 cup

Quarts, pints and gallons are equally straightforward.   [cool]

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2018, 11:28 PM »


Thing is we stopped listing engine displacements in cubic inches in the early 80s,  we list them in Liters. Everything about cars in the US is purely metric.  Only real thing that isn't metric in them is the speedo, since the conversion there stalled in the late 70s.  We had dual unit road signs going up for a period of time.  Some of them are still out there listing distances to places in km.  There is even 1 US highway that is metric Interstate 19.   This whole thing is the grind, almost all the US runs on metric system. Our industries/tech/etc.  But at the very surface we still slap inches over stuff.   If you want fun in cars, you get into emissions, which measures in grams per mile. Nice "lovely" hybrid unit.  Pretty much the result of having instrumentation, engineering, etc work in metric but then having it get tied back to customary stuff. 

The irony on defeating the brits and then clinging the imperial measurements is not lost on a lot of the population.   But also it goes back to a lot of people forgetting the US has been a metric country since pretty much the beginning.  Thomas Jefferson tried, and later we signed the treaty of the metre.

Wiki gives a pretty good summary. US Metric

Basically, like I mentioned, the US is metric but we have these random hold outs on it in certain places, and the general congress person who resist change or allows a deadline for conversion to pass.

I think the biggest issue I have heard from the big push in the 70s was that the program in places was heavy on teaching conversion, instead of just saying "this is X meters" or "the temp is X Celsius" they pushed conversion tables and teaching people how to convert everything, so people would do "Ok so it's X meters which then equals Y inches", instead of just going with X meters.  This is in part why dual dimensioned stuff is so bad, people don't adjust to the new units.  Once you get a person to stop converting units and just run with the new and get a feel for them, they have no issue. But if you teach conversion methods, they never get it, or get confused or just don't see the point.   Where I live they will give the weather in both F and C, but if they just gave it in C, people would adjust a lot quicker.

Like any place, not all imperial units will go away.  People are still going to call them 2x4's . It's not like the units match as is. People will still call sheets 4x8 even when they aren't.  What matters though is when you are using them, they are what they are.

Where you get the real silliness of the situation is things like  miles vs km, and the related speeds.  People will say kms are confusing or they don't have a feel for it, yet the reality is we have terrible sense of distance, and bulk of people accuracy on eyeballing a mile is probably plus/minus 3/4 of a mile.  Which is why if we converted all the roads/cars tomorrow, almost everyone would go about things just fine.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:51 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2018, 11:48 PM »
Which is why if we converted all the roads/cars tomorrow, almost everyone would go about things just fine.

You really think so...I’d beg to differ. If it was really that easy...it’d already be done.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2018, 11:53 PM »
Political and nationalistic comments have been removed from this topic.

Please keep it that way.

Seth

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2018, 12:29 AM »
Which is why if we converted all the roads/cars tomorrow, almost everyone would go about things just fine.

You really think so...I’d beg to differ. If it was really that easy...it’d already be done.

We have been close before.  But the best example for this sort of thing is Dagen H Day. If an entire country can switch what side of the road the drive on in an hour, then other conversions can be done. Also it shows that near instantaneous conversion is typically the best way.

Cars get tricky due the you have a long term purchase that now may have issues with the change, and also it takes time to put signs up.  Thing is, road signs get replaced fairly routinely, so you would might  make them dual signed for a while, with a hard date for all new signs to be single unit down the road.  As digital dashes in cars have become more normal, some of the hardest issues of the change go away, as people can just push a button, or maybe have to go to the dealer for a firmware update to do the switch.  The faster the switch the better.  As cars go electric, the fueling side of it goes away too.  But even there, gas stations today can make their pumps be in liters by the flick of switch/button.

Road signs could take some time, but it would also be the perfect time to get the US to use international signage,  update signage to be consistent from state to state (everyone goes to km (mile) based exit numbers for example).  Which is actually a good example.  Many states did the conversion from sequential exit numbers to distance based numbers and basically did it overnight, people adjusted fast. Some states haven't made the change yet, so this could push that further. Or in the case of states like California that for the most part don't have exit numbers, they could finally have them.  Speed signs are also an example of large scale rollouts that happen fast. States will change all the signs on an interstate in a day when they raise limits.  Print out a bunch of overlay stickers for the signs, pay contractors by the sign, you will have a bunch of people out there racing to each sign to slap the conversion sticker on it.  All the signs would get updated very fast.   Do it in the summer, have hundreds/thousands of High Schoolers running around making 1 buck a sign,  the whole process would take just a few days.  Then, over time the converted signs get replaced as part of normal process.    Hardest things would be states like Pennsylvania with markers along the highway at 0.1mile distances.  Those might not get replaced very fast or would just stay till the next road rebuild.

Offline Coen

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2018, 01:31 AM »

Like any place, not all imperial units will go away.  People are still going to call them 2x4's . It's not like the units match as is. People will still call sheets 4x8 even when they aren't.  What matters though is when you are using them, they are what they are.

We know those sheets as 1,22 x 2,44 [m] over here.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2018, 10:04 PM »
A store near me was listing the finish plywood in the mm thicknesses (which was nice to see), but gave the other length and width in inches and had a note proclaiming they extra material to be cut off material incase it gets damaged  ;D .  Which sure, it's good to have extra for that, but that wasn't why it wasn't 4x8.  Some time later they removed the mm markings and put fraction of inches back up,  material was the same.

Major chain store in the US has tried to do things right, but fails in a spectacular way.  The will call something out saying 3/4", then under that give the even closer fractional number. 23/32. But then they actually put on the decimal value, they convert the 23/32 = .719. so they have that on the label.  Then they list it in metric too, so they convert both and show 19.05 (nominal) and 18.256 (actual).  Problem is, the plywood is 18mm plywood.   They get so wrapped up going to nominal and conventional dimensions then trying to convert they loose the plot on just calling it what it is.

I'm not sure when they made this change or how long it will last.  I think it might have been in response to a Lawsuit,  someone sued over 4x4s not being 4x4" but actually 3.5x3.5".  Suite pointed out the false advertising.  May have been legit, but I think they were largely just trying to make the point that things need to be called out by what they are, not nominal/trade sizes.  Not everyone knows the difference and even those who are aware of them don't always expect the places they might pop up (landscape pavers/retaining wall blocks are one where people don't see it coming). 

This is why I like ISO specs on stuff, as they are almost always explicit, something is  labeled what it is.  US specs use a lot of trade size stuff, and even in people who work with it every day it trips people up.  "- (dash) 8" being a size for a fitting verses just calling it .5". (because it's 8/16ths of an inch), or gauges for thickness of sheetmetal, but they aren't the same for steel or aluminum.  Wire going from Gauge to AWG to MCM as it gets bigger.  Small screws going from being in inches to "numbers".  14, 12, 10, etc.  Drill sizes becoming letters verses their size.   This stuff confuses those who use it every day, for those who only end up dealing with it as a rarity are just going to be completely confused.  Having multiple engineers asking "how big is a #10 screw" is a common thing.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 12:06 AM »
A store near me was listing the finish plywood in the mm thicknesses (which was nice to see), but gave the other length and width in inches and had a note proclaiming they extra material to be cut off material incase it gets damaged  ;D .  Which sure, it's good to have extra for that, but that wasn't why it wasn't 4x8.  Some time later they removed the mm markings and put fraction of inches back up,  material was the same.

   Not sure about the particular plywood that you encountered. But there is such a thing as over sized plywood 1/2" each way (48 1/2" x 96 1/2") And it certainly seems to be for the reason of being able to cut fresh, clean, square edges and still maintain the 48" x 96" final. I order it intentionally from my supplier. Also the factory edge on these sheets is usually not in good shape. Not from being banged around but because some of the plies are not even fully adhered along the edge and voids are visible. Now it could be that the size is something exact in mm, but the factory is making no attempt to produce good edges on these sheets.

Seth

Offline yetihunter

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 12:47 AM »
Maybe we should do away with the quarter notes and tap our feet to a base ten metronome?  [smile]




Offline grbmds

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 03:19 PM »
Seems like this post has gotten off-topic. It appears the OP's original question and point was dealt with in the first few posts.
Randy

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Dealers selling pre-converted tools?
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 03:40 PM »
Seems like this post has gotten off-topic. It appears the OP's original question and point was dealt with in the first few posts.

Randy,

I would agree.  It appears that this thread has run its course and based on the similarity to another thread that was locked, so will be this one.

Peter