Author Topic: Festool and mafell  (Read 54910 times)

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Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2017, 06:04 PM »
Well I used the belt sander yesterday.
It is good, and for my tastes I like it better than the RO ones I tried (which chose direction like divining rods before Noah's trip.)

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Offline yetihunter

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2017, 12:17 AM »
(which chose direction like divining rods before Noah's trip.)

I love you, Holmz.

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2017, 01:26 AM »
The most intriguing tool for me in Mafell’s line-up would the the Mafell Doweller.  Mafell has really thought out the process of quickly jointing multiple plywood pieces quickly and accurately with their system.

Their template system makes plywood jointing look effortless and much easier than the Domino. I still plan to buy the DF 700 first.  I’d buy a doweller before I’d buy the DF 500.

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Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2017, 01:46 AM »
Their template system makes plywood jointing look effortless and much easier than the Domino.

Just curious...have you used a Domino before?

Make a mark...choose a bit...plunge. Biscuits, Domino’s or dowels. The process is the same, however the outcome may be different.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2017, 11:24 AM »
The most intriguing tool for me in Mafell’s line-up would the the Mafell Doweller.  Mafell has really thought out the process of quickly jointing multiple plywood pieces quickly and accurately with their system.

Their template system makes plywood jointing look effortless and much easier than the Domino. I still plan to buy the DF 700 first.  I’d buy a doweller before I’d buy the DF 500.

Did Mafell buy Hoffmann? Looks like the old Hoffmann PDS 32.

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2017, 12:11 PM »
Did Mafell buy Hoffmann? Looks like the old Hoffmann PDS 32.
Freud used to make FDW710, which is the same thing. Then there are Felisatti RF 12710 (a copy of Freud or vice versa), DWL850 from an obscure company called 909, and of course Triton TDJ600. So, six different manufacturers. I don't know who came first.

Offline McNally Family

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2017, 01:31 PM »
Did Mafell buy Hoffmann? Looks like the old Hoffmann PDS 32.
Freud used to make FDW710, which is the same thing. Then there are Felisatti RF 12710 (a copy of Freud or vice versa), DWL850 from an obscure company called 909, and of course Triton TDJ600. So, six different manufacturers. I don't know who came first.

Here is a link for an old auction, for the Hoffmann PDS32.  It certainly looks like the current Mafell product.

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/capital-recovery-group/catalogue-id-cap10089/lot-7f40ac60-8d89-4b5e-893d-a46d00e09dc9

Here is a picture and article for the Freud dowler, which sold for around $350.00.  It does also resemble the Mafell product:

http://www.rockler.com/how-to/the-freud-dowel-joiner-a-new-take-on-an-old-technique/
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 01:36 PM by McNally Family »
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

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Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2017, 01:35 PM »
Their template system makes plywood jointing look effortless and much easier than the Domino.

Just curious...have you used a Domino before?

Make a mark...choose a bit...plunge. Biscuits, Domino’s or dowels. The process is the same, however the outcome may be different.

I will be buying the DF 700 when I get my taxes back next year.  I’ll have an opportunity to use the Domino first.  I’ve been using a router and a Dado on a Table Saw for loose tenons.  The router table saw approach works if you have nothing but time on your hands.

I’m hoping the domino will allow me to double the number of furniture pieces I make every year.

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Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2017, 01:50 PM »

I’m hoping the domino will allow me to double the number of furniture pieces I make every year.


You'll be pleasantly surprised with the speed of project execution.  [cool]

Offline Timtool

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2017, 02:01 PM »
@Steven Owen
I find their doweller magnificent, but in the same time I hate dowels. Gluing them is time consuming and messy when compared to dominos.
Plus the domino is more versatile, I use mine for solid wood nearly exclusively but can always use it when needed on plywood, where I generally prefer dado joints. The doweller is really only useful on sheet goods, and even then it's not really a production tool. So I don't really know what to think of it, I'd like to have one just to admire it, but wouldn't know what the heck to do with it.
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Offline JimH2

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2017, 05:50 PM »
@Steven Owen
I find their doweller magnificent, but in the same time I hate dowels. Gluing them is time consuming and messy when compared to dominos.
Plus the domino is more versatile, I use mine for solid wood nearly exclusively but can always use it when needed on plywood, where I generally prefer dado joints. The doweller is really only useful on sheet goods, and even then it's not really a production tool. So I don't really know what to think of it, I'd like to have one just to admire it, but wouldn't know what the heck to do with it.

Have you ever used one? I seriously doubt it. The Duo Doweler does everything the Domino plus some and works perfectly as a production tool with or without the template system. I have used both extensively having had a Domino for many years before buying a Duo Doweler. The dowels work just fine and gluing is easy with the provided glue bottle. BTW it also works on non-sheet goods including composite materials. You might try looking at view of the videos that are readily available on youTube.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 610
Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #101 on: October 20, 2017, 05:53 PM »
Their template system makes plywood jointing look effortless and much easier than the Domino.

Just curious...have you used a Domino before?

Make a mark...choose a bit...plunge. Biscuits, Domino’s or dowels. The process is the same, however the outcome may be different.

No reason to get into the comparison process of the different joining techniques and their strengths. It's a dead end road with no clear winner.

Offline grobkuschelig

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2017, 06:03 PM »
I have not used a „dual doweler“ yet, but have used round dowels for years. The one thing that makes the Domino a winner for me is that, having only one „dowel“ (minimal space required) you already get a rotation free connection. Not achievable with a single round dowel...

YMMV.

Offline antss

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2017, 06:12 PM »
I believe Hoffmann to still be an independent concern.


Offline amt

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2017, 06:22 PM »
What's the smallest diameter dowel the dual doweller uses?  I used the Domino to strengthen a miter in my kitchen bench seat, 10 feet long.  With the domino, it was easy.  With dowels, I am not even sure there's dowels small enough diameter to do the job (the material was 18mm), and it would take at least 2x the dowels to do it.  The rectangular cross section of the domino was perfect for this.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2017, 06:46 PM »
I believe Hoffmann to still be an independent concern.

Yep. https://hoffmann-usa.com

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4944
Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2017, 06:48 PM »
No reason to get into the comparison process of the different joining techniques and their strengths. It's a dead end road with no clear winner.

That’s the reason I didn’t go there. It all depends upon what you want for a final solution.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2017, 07:10 PM »
@Steven Owen
I find their doweller magnificent, but in the same time I hate dowels. Gluing them is time consuming and messy when compared to dominos.
Plus the domino is more versatile, I use mine for solid wood nearly exclusively but can always use it when needed on plywood, where I generally prefer dado joints. The doweller is really only useful on sheet goods, and even then it's not really a production tool. So I don't really know what to think of it, I'd like to have one just to admire it, but wouldn't know what the heck to do with it.

Have you ever used one? I seriously doubt it. The Duo Doweler does everything the Domino plus some and works perfectly as a production tool with or without the template system. I have used both extensively having had a Domino for many years before buying a Duo Doweler. The dowels work just fine and gluing is easy with the provided glue bottle. BTW it also works on non-sheet goods including composite materials. You might try looking at view of the videos that are readily available on youTube.

No, Mafell’s aren’t readily available in Canada unless you know some one who owns one.

I’ve used the Triton doweller during some weekend and night classes at NAIT.  I have a good idea how the doweller can work.  Granted the Triton was largely inferior to the Mafell and Freud.

The projects dictate the tool.  Chairs and benches require jointing stock that isn’t wide enough for the doweller.  The DF 700 is a better fit for narrow stock.

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Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #108 on: October 20, 2017, 07:24 PM »
Not sure how the tuition is inferior. After using both, can you elaborate?

The domino 500 may be even better for narrower stock than the 700?

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #109 on: October 20, 2017, 07:30 PM »
I will weigh in on the Domino and Mafell Duo-doweler since I have them and use them all. 
1) Doweling is much faster and much more precise than the domino.  Plunging of doweler works best when done as fast as possible where the domino is a slow and steady plunge for best results.
2) Gluing dowels is much less time intensive than gluing dominos and there are actually commercially available dowel glue dispensers that don't exist for the domino.
3) Dowels are much less expensive than dominos until the size gets beyond 12mm. 
4) The doweler is better suited for sheet goods than the domino. 
5) The doweler also works well on furniture as long as the width of the workpiece is 2" or wider. 
6) For narrower, stock the domino is the better choice. 
7) The doweler is limited to 40mm depth, the domino 500 is limited to 28mm deep while the domino 700 is limited to 70mm. 
8) For large and deep connections, the domino 700 is the better choice.
9) You can get away with using larger dowels than you can dominos in the same thickness stock.

The Hoffman PDS32 doweler is no longer available and was re-badged and manufactured by Mafell.  Too bad it is no longer marketed since it was much less expensive than the Mafell offerings for the identical machine. 

I recently did a series of videos on duo dowelers.  To get an idea of speed, this is demonstrated in the following video starting shortly after the 12 minute mark. 

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 08:46 AM by Steve Rowe »

Offline antss

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #110 on: October 20, 2017, 08:03 PM »
Quote
What's the smallest diameter dowel the dual doweller uses?

I believe it's 3mm.

Perhaps Steve can confirm ?

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2017, 09:02 PM »
Not sure how the tuition is inferior.
This is how:
   there are 4 parts.
Build quality basically

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2017, 09:18 PM »
What's the smallest diameter dowel the dual doweller uses?  I used the Domino to strengthen a miter in my kitchen bench seat, 10 feet long.  With the domino, it was easy.  With dowels, I am not even sure there's dowels small enough diameter to do the job (the material was 18mm), and it would take at least 2x the dowels to do it.  The rectangular cross section of the domino was perfect for this.
There are two models. 700W with 3 to 12 mm cutters, and 1000W with 5 to 16 mm.  Although you can fit 3 mm on a 1000W model (same thread). So yes, greater range than Domino.
Regardless, Doweler vs Domino is a spoon vs fork argument.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 09:21 PM by Svar »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2017, 09:42 PM »
Regardless, Doweler vs Domino is a spoon vs fork argument.

I prefer to eat peas with a fork...you?   [popcorn] [popcorn]

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2017, 10:07 PM »
I prefer to eat peas with a fork...you?   [popcorn] [popcorn]
Spoon, just out of spite.

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2017, 10:08 PM »
The smallest size is 3mm but Mafell does not recommend with the DD40P as the speed is too slow.  The 3mm bit is suitable for the DD40G. The smallest I have used is 5mm and it works great.  The largest I have used is 12mm.  I will not go to 16mm dowels as the bits are over $100 each and that size dowel is very expensive (more expensive than 14mm dominos).

On the Triton; my only advice is caveat emptor.  The Triton could not do accurate joinery.  For me, the Triton is absolutely the worst power tool purchase I have made in the past 45 years and that includes a lot of tools. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2017, 10:50 PM »
Spoon, just out of spite.

Good come back...

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2017, 11:06 PM »
Not sure how the tuition is inferior.
This is how:
...

Build quality basically

That is more along the line of testimony, which is not as good as evidence, but it is better than a statement of fact without any supporting stuff.

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2017, 11:49 PM »
Not sure how the tuition is inferior. After using both, can you elaborate?

The domino 500 may be even better for narrower stock than the 700?

The Triton was not very accurate.  You would always do a test cut and use a shim to center it.  The Triton had terrible alignment.  I brought my Jessem Dowel Jig to class the next day because it was that bad.
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Offline Timtool

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Re: Festool and mafell
« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2017, 04:48 AM »

Have you ever used one? I seriously doubt it. The Duo Doweler does everything the Domino plus some and works perfectly as a production tool with or without the template system. I have used both extensively having had a Domino for many years before buying a Duo Doweler. The dowels work just fine and gluing is easy with the provided glue bottle. BTW it also works on non-sheet goods including composite materials. You might try looking at view of the videos that are readily available on youTube.

I work with solid wood mostly so the vast majority of joints I make fall outside of the DD's possibilities, mainly due to the stock not being wide enough. And when it's wide enough then I would never use dowels any way, but an actual custom width mortice made with either domino. Because solid wood rails that are wide enough for the DD usually have to support great tensions.

What I mean with it not being a production tool, is that a business cannot seriously rely on the DD as the main means of joining panels. I can see it being used for the smaller scale project, or for a starting business. But for those I would still advise the much more versatile domino. But I join all my production cabinets with dado type joints, I seriously can't afford to spend a crazy amount of time joining each part with a hand tool. To on top of that end up with a result that can support far lesser stress. That makes no economical sense.
Now if I'd make particle board kitchen cabinets all day, then I'd love to have one just in case. But again, never as a main production tool.

As I said it's a great tool, but with non negligible application limits. For that price I would rather invest in a Lamello zeta.
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