Author Topic: Festool by the pound?  (Read 4170 times)

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Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Festool by the pound?
« on: February 21, 2007, 12:06 PM »
In a recent post, I saw this comment:
Quote
Does anyone plan to buy this thing?
At $88 you can buy a complete good quality drywall gun for the same or less cost. Why does such a small amount of plastic and aluminum cost so much? [Emphasis Ned's]
...However, if the price of this chuck was around $35 I'd simply buy it with no complaint.

I've seen comments like the quote above way too frequently, given the makeup of this group.

A large percentage of us have a background in software.  What is it exactly that you deliver and that people pay you for?  "Well, I can buy a ream of paper for $2.98.  Why should I pay megabucks for paper you've only put marks on?"

For those whose experience is in the real world:  How about making a chair?  Customer says--"Why should I pay you $750?  I've seen how much sticks of wood cost at the home center!"

The only required relationship between the selling price of something and the cost of production is this:  If the selling price is below the cost of production, over the long term, the seller will go out of business.

Beyond that, the selling price is simply a matter of agreement between buyer and seller.  I'll go further--a fair selling price is simply a matter of agreement between buyer and seller.

Festool has decided on a business model that balances, to their satisfaction, the price, the actual warranty performance, the level of pre-and post-sale support.  So they offer their goods within their business model, and (enough of us) agree with them that the price for what's offered is acceptable.  None of us were or are compelled to pay that price except by our own interests, whether productivity or pleasure.  All of us are free to outfit our shops with Black & Decker Firestorm if we judge that the Festool products are not worth the premium.

Of course I'd like to pay less, and Festool would like to charge more.  Resolving the tension between the two points of view is the job done by the free market.

I'd like to pressure Festool to lower prices more, but I will never use the argument of how much I imagine their cost of production to be.  Festool owners, of all people, should understand that their valued tools are valued most for the aspects that weigh nothing.

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Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 12:55 PM »

Quote: At $88 you can buy a complete good quality drywall gun for the same or less cost.

 I believe that buying a drywall gun for the same price as the Festool part is not the point here, the point I see is, you can buy Festool's drywall attachment that will fit in your pocket and work as well as any drywall gun on the market, saying that, I feel, Festool should'nt have to lower the cost of somthing because they have enginered it to be small and compact.
 That part is a drywall gun so the price should reflect that.
My 2 cents

Mirko
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 01:00 PM by Mirko »

Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 01:00 PM »
Mirko,

I think we just agreed.

Ned

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 01:05 PM »
Ned,
I do'nt want to carry 3-4 drills that do the job of one.
And everything fits in the Systainer!!

Mirko

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3611
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2007, 01:35 PM »
I'm sure you guys got my point but I'll add a little more. I'm don't intending to argue this point and I'm not mad a Festool. This item is just one that seems to be  incorrectly priced, to me.

My comparison to an existing drywall gun was due to the similarity of the technology and the relative cost. There isn't much more to the Festool Depth Stop Chuck than there is to the nose piece of any drywall gun. They didn't have to reinvent the wheel. The primary distintion of the Festool Depth Stop Chuck from any $20 replacement nose for a drywall gun is the FastFix connection and they didn't have too go far down the hall to discover that technology. The bit holder is also integral to the Depth Stop Chuck but that doesn't seem so difficult to engineer either.

My point may have been more clear though if I'd only compared the Depth Stop Chuck to the other FastFix chucks. It seems to me there is way less involved in manufacturing the Depth Stop Chuck than in the Right Angle or Eccentric chucks. I own both of those chucks and I'm considering buying another standard chuck. The Depth Stop Chuck seems more equivalent to the standard BF-FX 13 chuck (in terms of manufacturing difficulty) which only costs $41, so I'm curious how they justify the $88 price.

I'd certainly like to have the Depth Stop Chuck in my kit too, but I won't at $88. Will you buy it?


Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2007, 01:40 PM »
Now I understand your point, Michael.

I think Mirko illustrates my point very well.  He looks at the Depth Stop Chuck and sees convenience over a separate tool, and that's worth $88 (US) in his view.  While he can get a corded drywall driver for about the same price, it wouldn't have the convenience of his cordless Festool.

It's similar to the reusable vac bag.  Festool's pricing is clearly based on guessing what it's worth to you, and they figure a 6-month payback after you switch from disposables will be good enough for you to buy.

There may be some room for fine tuning the Depth Stop Chuck's pricing.  Would every Festool drill owner buy one if it were $59?  $69?  Would Festool make a higher profit at the lower price/higher volume?  The answer, whatever it is, isn't obvious.  Which is why good marketing people can charge so much for the paper they sell  :) .

Ned
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 01:59 PM by Ned Young »

Offline Christian Oltzscher

  • Festool Employee.
  • Posts: 157
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2007, 07:26 PM »
Hello,

I couldn't help to comment on this thread.

Manufacturing cost for the DD-DC depth-stop chuck are basically the same as for the right-angle chuck
and the eccentric chuck. This is why the selling price is the same. The DD-DC has an integral clutch and
the Fastfix interface, both which are not easy and cheap to manufacture. It takes a lot more to manufacture this chuck than it takes to manufacture a standard chuck. In addition to this: You expect
the chuck to last for years down the road and to fit even after you put it on and off the drill a
hundred thousand times. All this adds to the cost.

We know that we could sell significantly more chucks if we sold them for $35. In order to be able to
sell this chuck for $35, we had to compromise the quality. And this is something that does not fit
to the Festool philosophy at all.

I completely understand if not everybody wants to spend $88 on the depth-stop chuck. I hope you
understand that we will not compromise quality for higher sales.

Regards,

Christian

P.S. Here is a link to the product information sheet for the DD-DC:
http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/depth_stop_chuck.pdf

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 08:13 PM »
Thanks for posting Christian,
 I like you to know, that I admire that you take time to participate in this forum, keep up the good work!
Quality befor quantity always!!
Festool has changed the way I look at everything, (thats a good thing)
And I wanted to add, Festool is one of the main reasons I started my own company.
Thanks

Mirko

Offline Gary E

  • Posts: 100
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2007, 09:21 PM »
I's also like to thank Christian and not only for posting, but for making no compromises in building Festools. I wish we had more companies around today that worked like this. Maybe there would not be as much crap filling our landfills.

Gary
Gary

Still learning the easy stuff.

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 545
    • talkFestool
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2007, 10:01 PM »
Christian,

Quality first!   

I have a strict rule about tools - I wait until I have a defined need.  When that happens, I try to get the best.   I no longer have the time, energy or patience for poor quality tools!  When Festool starts competing with the BORG tools, where do I get the good stuff?!? 

Dan.

Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2007, 10:07 PM »
... we will not compromise quality for higher sales.

I am grateful that we who value quality have the choice that Festool offers.  I don't know how much it costs to make any particular item, and I don't care.  I do know that Festool products are worth the asking price to me.

I wish Festool continued success and prosperity.

Ned

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2007, 11:57 PM »
I wish Festool continued success and prosperity.

Ned

  Me too.  ;D ;) ;D

 Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3611
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 08:41 AM »
Thanks for responding Christian. Although I am surprised to learn that the Depth Stop chuck is as costly to manufacture as the other FastFix chucks I too appreciate the Festool philosophy. I'd rather pay $88 for an accessory that worked well and kept on working well than half the price for one that almost worked as well or failed too soon. I've got drawers full of those "almost good enough" things.

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1723
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 10:29 AM »
OK, I can't resist....

Bob, I'll take half a pound of domino and a quarter pound of Rotex.    :D ;D ::)

Offline Barry

  • Posts: 55
Re: Festool by the pound?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 03:23 PM »
I understand that a quality product commands top dollar but I still have to wonder a little about what type of margins Festool makes on their products.  To illustrate I own a TS 55, MFT 1080, and CT33 primarily because no one else makes anthing that works as well, not even close.

But instead of buying a RO150 I'll buy the bosch 1250devs and instead of purchasing a CD12 I'll just pick up some new batteries for my dewalt.  Granted I really want both of the above products, but I don't think they are that much better that they command a 100% premium.  Just my 2c.
Central NJ