Author Topic: Festool CMS discontinued  (Read 27250 times)

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Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2019, 08:47 AM »
There may be new saws on the way?
I have an email giving info about upcoming Festool roadshows, and it’s mentioned something like new products will be shown, including a saw with the Saw Stop safety technology etc.
So possibly CS50, CS70 and CMS upgrades or replacements, who knows?

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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2019, 11:10 AM »
@Jiggy Joiner


A English friend of mine sent me that flyer via email a couple of days ago.

 Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.

Looking at it from a NA perspective, adding the saw stop techology might just be festools attempt to be able to get it through the UL and get their approval to be able to sell it here in NA.

fingers crossed.

 though it would be quite pricey here. i think you could buy a saw stop cabinet saw for the price of the CS70 over here.


Offline Svar

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2019, 11:32 AM »
Still, I can't see I've seen anything like a CMS for routers.   You have the basic "table" deal you buy at the big box store that doesn't do much but hold a router.  Or you get into big DIY assembly of random parts that people build.  I would be curious if anyone can point to something that is the same as a CMS router setup, not a "buy this", "add this companies lift", etc.  The turn key aspect of it is a winner, and the addition that you could swap it with a saw and such is what put it over the top. 
Triton WorkCentre is a modular system similar to CMS. Work table / router / table saw / cross cut saw, all in one. Bunch of reviews on YouTube.
Wolfcraft has a modular system too (low budget, low quality), not available in the US.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 11:50 AM by Svar »

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2019, 12:46 PM »
Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.
Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2019, 12:49 PM »
@jobsworth Hi Ron, yes what you say makes sense, I hope Festool's plans work out good for you, and also hopefully, we'll get to be able to buy the safety technology here.
I'm actually looking for a decent mobile table saw, I've hankered for an Erika 85e for quite some time but, I think I'll wait and see if Festool can pull something out of the bag  [thumbs up]

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2019, 12:50 PM »
Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.
Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.

Hi Svar, is that because the technology would only work on a fixed head set up?

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2019, 01:12 PM »
Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.
Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.
Hi Svar, is that because the technology would only work on a fixed head set up?
I think it is possible to mount it on moving carriage as well. Perhaps it gets too complicated or bulky. You'd probably have to immobilize the carriage when the SawStop mechanism fires up.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:18 PM by Svar »

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2019, 01:14 PM »
@Jiggy Joiner

Ive been lusting after a Erica 85 myself. Im interested to see what the cost is of the new CS 70 if it gets over here. It better be pretty darned good and I mean over and above the Saw Stop Technology if they are going to ask the same as a Erica 85.

Thats about $4000 when ya add in some of the accessories.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2019, 01:16 PM »
One thing about the saw stop is that when the thing goes off it destroys the blade and the cost of replacement for the mechanism isnt exactly cheap. I imagine in true festool fashion the replacement mechanism will cost a fortune

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2019, 01:20 PM »
@Svar Thanks, yes, makes sense.

@jobsworth Yes, part of me thinks the Erika might be overkill but, I just love the saw, even taking into account it's hefty price tag. I have chased after a couple of really nice used examples but, they sell in the blink of an eye and I was just too late both times.
A CS70 would do for a lot of our needs but, there are time when I'd need to take advantage of the 85mm cut. Perhaps Festool will do a 90mm machine?  [blink] ;)

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2019, 01:23 PM »
One thing about the saw stop is that when the thing goes off it destroys the blade and the cost of replacement for the mechanism isnt exactly cheap. I imagine in true festool fashion the replacement mechanism will cost a fortune

That's something I've thought about too.
Doesn't another company have a similar safety tech but, one that is re settable without damage, Felder maybe? Can't remember.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 356
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2019, 01:31 PM »
I suppose the small form factor is a fair point in favor of the CMS. I guess it would be smaller than a DW745 tablesaw and a generic decent router table, but perhaps not by much. I don't have any hands on experience with the CMS router option but part of the reason for that is that just the plate unit costs like 600 euros. That's without a (Festool plunge) router or a CMS ground unit. Altogether that would be somewhere nearing 2k, just to be able to save some space and have a handheld router. With all due respect to those who use it, with a price like that and a very limited market, I can't imagine it was a huge seller.

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2019, 01:42 PM »
Doesn't another company have a similar safety tech but, one that is re settable without damage, Felder maybe? Can't remember.
Yes, two so far. Bosch requires a new cartridge but does not affect the blade. Felder resets with a push of a button, no consumables.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2019, 03:03 PM »
Thanks Svar, I wonder if Felder started from scratch with their design, or copied/improved on the SawStop design?

Either way, a very clever package.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:00 PM by Jiggy Joiner »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2019, 09:49 PM »
Yes its a revamped CS 70 with saw stop technology.
Unlike CS70 the new one with Sawstop tech is not a pull saw. At least the prototype was not.
Hi Svar, is that because the technology would only work on a fixed head set up?
I think it is possible to mount it on moving carriage as well. Perhaps it gets too complicated or bulky. You'd probably have to immobilize the carriage when the SawStop mechanism fires up.

I would say it's the complexity factor and loads into the carriage, cost and weight start going up.  I'm still not fully getting the purpose of pull saws, but I would think they would cause your hands to not be near the blade so less of a need for the saw stop function.  Having an interlock where it only works when in conventional mode could make sense.   Still it might come back down to not trying to do too many things at one time.  They may simply want to get a Gen 1 product out, and if that goes well, they can address pull saw function for Gen 2.

Do people want a saw stop CS sooner than later?  Add functions like pull saw ability just means it's more later than sooner.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2019, 10:03 PM »
Still, I can't see I've seen anything like a CMS for routers.   You have the basic "table" deal you buy at the big box store that doesn't do much but hold a router.  Or you get into big DIY assembly of random parts that people build.  I would be curious if anyone can point to something that is the same as a CMS router setup, not a "buy this", "add this companies lift", etc.  The turn key aspect of it is a winner, and the addition that you could swap it with a saw and such is what put it over the top. 
Triton WorkCentre is a modular system similar to CMS. Work table / router / table saw / cross cut saw, all in one. Bunch of reviews on YouTube.
Wolfcraft has a modular system too (low budget, low quality), not available in the US.

Thanks

Yeah, it is similar, and funny it's a lot like what some of us have mentioned, that being merge of the CS/CMS line.  The dedicated saw module verses adapt a TS is a nice way to do it, though I would still want to see both offered as I'm sure many folks would like to just leave their TS 75 in the plate, and only pull it out when they have a job their TS55 isn't up to.

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2019, 02:57 AM »
Seems to a little confusion and some missed information from previous posts in this thread.

The revised CS 70 doesn't incorporate SawStop technology.

The new TKS 80 *does* include the SawStop technology, but is not a pull saw. The TKS 80 prototype is the saw that has been seen doing the rounds of a few shows recently. It will also be on the UK Festool Truck tour for those that want to catch a glimpse of it.

The new CS 70 did not have US part numbers in the list from last year, but the TKS 80 did. I assume this means the US will get the TKS 80, but I don't have any information regarding timing of release in Europe or elsewhere.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2019, 02:32 PM »
I'm still not fully getting the purpose of pull saws

The idea behind the push/pull saws, is to add a little safety when ripping smaller stock, as the stck can be clamped, the saw blade pulled through, which eliminates the cause of many accidents with table saws. The other thinking behind them, is mitres, especially compound mitres are achievable in a safer, and slightly easier way, instead of a sled set up. Plus a few other things that are made easier with the push/pull.

The first time I ever used one, it felt a bit awkward until I got the hang of it, and with further use, I seemed to work more efficiently, and I think a bit safer.

They are not for everybody though, I’ve used a Mafell Erika 85 often, as a friend has one. They are a really superb machine, even if possibly over priced. I’ve been after one for a long time but, I’m struggling with the £3000 price, as all said and done, it’s a portable table saw, albeit a very nice one.
I will look at the TKS 80 though, as it may be a contender.

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2019, 03:18 PM »
Why would a pull saw not be for everyone? It's a great concept, everything's safer and easier. And you can just as easily use it as a standard saw. On my CS70 I'm switching all the time between the two modes. I really hope they put the SawStop technology in it soon.

Sad to see the CMS go, I was planning on getting one one day, though I'm not sure I'd really need it. My sawing needs are already covered, and I think there are better options for a router table.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2019, 11:21 PM »
I will say this got me looking back at the Erika again.  What I hadn't seen before is they do have a router add on setup for it.  So I would say you can get to a similar place, but the router setup is just an add on off the side.  So not great.  Also the Maffell is a lot more money for their stuff.  Not so crazy about only having one US legit source.  But considering how flaky Festool is with things it might not be a bad option. Of course for LR32 stuff I'd still find myself looking for a router as I don't see Maffell having a good option there. Of course their friends as Bosch have a solution.

It is very frustrating that the whole reason I found Festool was a search for metric tools, and before I got to buying tools, they took metric away from the N.A. market.  Then I start plotting things I would buy and things go away,  the MFS,  now the CMS, and who knows how many other things I've considered over time.  Being able to leverage the saw in a CMS in the future was one of the reasons I bought the TS55 over the Maffel, with CMS gone, that would take a big hit.  The L32 was still in play in the choice, but then that connected back to the routers which connect back to the CMS.  So then it might have just come down to plug-it, which is a very nice thing, but not an impossible change to be made to other tools.

I'm happy with my Festool sanders, and CT, and those work nice on their own, probably will still buy a Domino.  But this is a trend that makes it ever harder to even consider waiting around for them to get their act back together.  What is someone to buy from a company if everything that made them interesting goes away and the products one is interested in buying go away.  Since buying the CT26, some of my non-festool stuff got new life as it's dust collection now could be used (having hoses that fit, autostart), they have all been put in systainers so the work flow with them is very nice now. 

I don't think I'm going to go throwing my TS55 and tracks away, but I think it's definitely time to re-consider things.  Festool needs to show what they are going to do to fill the void and do so quick.  I'd like to replace my compact Bosch table saw which aggravates me to no end.  I don't think I will sit around for 2 years with the hope that Festool brings out something I would want.

I just don't know what they expect to sell if they discontinue everything.  This is more so in N.America were the don't sell a whole lot of different products in the first place.

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2019, 05:56 PM »
Of course for LR32 stuff I'd still find myself looking for a router as I don't see Maffell having a good option there.
There is: Mafell DD40 and Template Guide Rail.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2019, 10:12 PM »
Of course for LR32 stuff I'd still find myself looking for a router as I don't see Maffell having a good option there.
There is: Mafell DD40 and Template Guide Rail.

Mind blown!   Why the heck do they call it the DD40 and not DD32.   I never made the connection that they drilled 32mm apart and had this as an option. I thought just drilled for dowels 40mm apart, and was overall a not very versatile machine.  This is definitely interesting.   Have to think about what is easier when trying to do cabinets, this or the LR32 setup from Festool.   Granted you get LR32 and domino replacement in one machine.  Of course gone are the option for the nifty knock down hardware Festool made for dominos.    This brings up the obvious question of why Festool made the domino in the first place, aside from just to be different.  First glance I think they both probably still have a place.

Think if Maffell called it the dual holer 32  DH32 it would have drawn more attention.

I will say some of this is the issue of having just one sales portal (and it being a 3rd party) for the US market.  Nothing against TW, but they don't exactly provide a lot of info on the tools.

Of course if I were to start buying maffell, they would probably launch a US division, offer tools in inch and discontinue stuff too :)

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 500
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2019, 01:44 AM »
I'm still not fully getting the purpose of pull saws

The idea behind the push/pull saws, is to add a little safety when ripping smaller stock, as the stck can be clamped, the saw blade pulled through, which eliminates the cause of many accidents with table saws. The other thinking behind them, is mitres, especially compound mitres are achievable in a safer, and slightly easier way, instead of a sled set up. Plus a few other things that are made easier with the push/pull.

The first time I ever used one, it felt a bit awkward until I got the hang of it, and with further use, I seemed to work more efficiently, and I think a bit safer.

They are not for everybody though, I’ve used a Mafell Erika 85 often, as a friend has one. They are a really superb machine, even if possibly over priced. I’ve been after one for a long time but, I’m struggling with the £3000 price, as all said and done, it’s a portable table saw, albeit a very nice one.
I will look at the TKS 80 though, as it may be a contender.

So looking at them more, videos and such and thinking about this more I came to the realization they get us back to good old radial arm saws.  The more I thought about it, I would think you could in many ways replace a compound miter box with one if used in the right ways.  Grew up with table saw and radial arm saw.  Never used a chop saw,  compound or slider until I owned one.   Depending on shop layout and what someone does, maybe one could skip the Kapex and put that money at a saw like an Erika.   May not be a great setup, but probably workable.  Sliding compounds are nice, but I would say they are far from a perfect tool.  I see the pull function on a 85 is nearly 18".  Pretty sure that's getting thru more wood than my 12" slider.

Still, the price is a very really thing.  4 grand for a saw.  And the 85 is only a little more than the 70, but the 85 is 230V only, so that would be an issue for auto start with vacuum.... the cycle begins again.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2019, 06:46 AM »
Why would a pull saw not be for everyone? It's a great concept, everything's safer and easier. And you can just as easily use it as a standard saw. On my CS70 I'm switching all the time between the two modes. I really hope they put the SawStop technology in it soon.

Sad to see the CMS go, I was planning on getting one one day, though I'm not sure I'd really need it. My sawing needs are already covered, and I think there are better options for a router table.

I love push/pull saws Alex, and my preference if buying a new table saw would be to have the push/pull facility. However, like many things in life, strawberries and cream, tea, coffee, cigars etc etc, they're are not for everybody. some like a table saw where the stock is pushed towards a spinning blade, some prefer to pull the spinning blade toward the stock. All down to preference.

I saw the TSK 80 being demo'd with the superb SawStop safety technology, a lovely and very safe saw with an 80mm cut, 10mm deeper than the CS70. What more could you ask for? Well according to some of the comments, and my own preference, a push/pull facility would make this saw a contender.
From what I understand, the SawStop tech cannot be implemented with a push/pull design? Shame really.
The saw is said to go on European release very late 2020 but, Festool as we know, can be late at times  ;)

The saw was well received by onlookers, many whom said they aren't bothered it isn't push/pull.
I would like the option of a CS85 if it ever materialised, even without SawStop tech but, not sure it will happen? For me, in the portable table saw category, the Mafell Erika 85 is still king, not the price though.  [blink]

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2019, 05:02 PM »
I'm still not fully getting the purpose of pull saws

The idea behind the push/pull saws, is to add a little safety when ripping smaller stock, as the stck can be clamped, the saw blade pulled through, which eliminates the cause of many accidents with table saws. The other thinking behind them, is mitres, especially compound mitres are achievable in a safer, and slightly easier way, instead of a sled set up. Plus a few other things that are made easier with the push/pull.

The first time I ever used one, it felt a bit awkward until I got the hang of it, and with further use, I seemed to work more efficiently, and I think a bit safer.

They are not for everybody though, I’ve used a Mafell Erika 85 often, as a friend has one. They are a really superb machine, even if possibly over priced. I’ve been after one for a long time but, I’m struggling with the £3000 price, as all said and done, it’s a portable table saw, albeit a very nice one.
I will look at the TKS 80 though, as it may be a contender.

So looking at them more, videos and such and thinking about this more I came to the realization they get us back to good old radial arm saws.  The more I thought about it, I would think you could in many ways replace a compound miter box with one if used in the right ways.  Grew up with table saw and radial arm saw.  Never used a chop saw,  compound or slider until I owned one.   Depending on shop layout and what someone does, maybe one could skip the Kapex and put that money at a saw like an Erika.   May not be a great setup, but probably workable.  Sliding compounds are nice, but I would say they are far from a perfect tool.  I see the pull function on a 85 is nearly 18".  Pretty sure that's getting thru more wood than my 12" slider.

Still, the price is a very really thing.  4 grand for a saw.  And the 85 is only a little more than the 70, but the 85 is 230V only, so that would be an issue for auto start with vacuum.... the cycle begins again.

Yes, I often compare push/pull saws to radial arm saws. I had a very big radial arm saw in a workshop years ago, that machine was in constant use every day, and more than earned it’s keep. We eventually replaced it with another tables saw, and a large mitre saw. I don’t know why we never kept it, it was so versatile, and never any trouble.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 500
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2019, 11:52 AM »
So a bit more back on subject.  Discontinuing the CMS non-north American places isn't as impactful on the saw front, as the CS saws exist, and in north America we never had saw inserts.  So putting the saws to the side for now.  About router tabling.  While north America got a slightly limited version, in the end everyone had the CMS for the festool routers globally.  With CMS discontinued, what does Festool offer folks anyplace for router table functions?

If the CMS concept is gone, I would think they would still find a need for some sort of router table function.   

I'm trying to understand if this is a hint to new routers.  It looks like in the past, new routers/cms were co-launched.  This makes sense since if you alter the base of the router you need new CMS insert.  Could they have new routers on the way?  Maybe Festool is going to revolutionize routers and add a light  [wink]   .  Maybe the old CMS would need updates for this, so it was deemed to just discontinue.

What happened on previous launch?  I assume there was OF1000, OF2000 and plate for the Basis system, and then they want OF1010, OF2200, CMS  all as one change.   Did the Basis system get discontinued and then CMS came along after new router launch?

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2019, 06:02 PM »
@DeformedTree ,  I am not that much about dialog these days, but the common facts in life is that any manufacturer will discontinue products for their own internal reasons.  Think Saturn and even Pontiac.

Festool hasn't said that the CMS is going to discontinued here but any sensible person would see the writing on the wall.  We were the last country to get it after all.

So, respectfully, if you want a CMS then step away from the keyboard and buy one.  If you want other stuff to add on to it, go grey market before all that stuff disappears and set yourself up.  Then do what you want in your shop.

But just typing and typing about it isn't going to alter the path that corporate has decided (and I have no idea what that is).

I offer this politely as practical advice.

Peter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 500
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2019, 07:58 PM »
@DeformedTree ,  I am not that much about dialog these days, but the common facts in life is that any manufacturer will discontinue products for their own internal reasons.  Think Saturn and even Pontiac.

Festool hasn't said that the CMS is going to discontinued here but any sensible person would see the writing on the wall.  We were the last country to get it after all.

So, respectfully, if you want a CMS then step away from the keyboard and buy one.  If you want other stuff to add on to it, go grey market before all that stuff disappears and set yourself up.  Then do what you want in your shop.

But just typing and typing about it isn't going to alter the path that corporate has decided (and I have no idea what that is).

I offer this politely as practical advice.

Peter

I think you mis-understand my comments,  I agree with you, it's discontinued and that is their decision.  Since it's discontinued, I have no interest in buying it.  My question now is if this is a hint of new things coming or not, since it would seam to leave a hole in their lineup that they would want to fill.

I'm bummed it goes away, but we never had the full system here anyway.  It just means re-thinking things.  I think if I was someone who was part way in setting up a CMS setup or just bought one I'd be less happy right now.  Stuff comes and goes, it just gets much more complex when products interconnect with each other.  I don't know how Festool handles things when they break compatibility from one generation to the next.  Do they just change. Do they discontinue, purge inventory, then bring new out.  Do they have overlap where folks can decide if they pick up the old stuff or work on shifting to the new.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5987
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2019, 03:33 AM »
I'm trying to understand if this is a hint to new routers.  It looks like in the past, new routers/cms were co-launched.  This makes sense since if you alter the base of the router you need new CMS insert.  Could they have new routers on the way?  Maybe Festool is going to revolutionize routers and add a light  [wink]   .  Maybe the old CMS would need updates for this, so it was deemed to just discontinue.

This is really the type of speculation you should only keep to yourself. No base here whatsoever, there are so many steps in there building on each other and that kind of fantasy is simply not going to happen.

Routers will stay the same, and CMS will go away. That's how it works.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 483
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2019, 04:30 AM »
I think from an upgrade point of view, if a company does discontinue a product and it’s accessories from their saleable catalogue. They should continue to manufacture and makes spares available for quite some time. Otherwise somebody who recently has invested heavily in a set up, and told very soon after that it’s to be discontinued, would be rightly upset?

I am still able to buy parts from some very old tools that I still have in use, all of these tools have been discontinued for many years but, the fact that the parts are still available, means I can continue to use them when needed.

I didn’t know that the full system CMS was never available in some countries, this is a bit strange as the CMS is a modular system, offering lots of possibilities in a compact set up, if you invest in the accessories but, if you are not offered the accessories to buy, what is the point? [scratch chin]

Hopefully any new or replacement systems, will be available to any countries where dealers are based, especially the countries that have heavily invested in the brand.
It’s obvious that European countries get the products when first released, but surely this could be amended so that the products are available globally on release.
The voltage differences have been around long enough now, for companies to know what is required from a legal and safety point of view. So they could get everything in place before a product is launched. That way, everything is available, and can be offered to anybody with dealer outlets, regardless of their location?

Festool currently have a few things in the pipeline, so maybe a replacement or re designed CMS type set up will be available?
If so, I hope it’s available in it’s entirety to all  ;)