Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 66324 times)

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Online RobBob

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #210 on: June 23, 2016, 05:56 PM »
If only the sticker is changing, it should be easy and cost effective to offer both imperial and metric.  That is something a premium tool manufacturer would do.
Each dealer could order whatever he felt that he could sell.

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #211 on: June 23, 2016, 05:57 PM »
Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy crap I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

No one is forcing you to retrofit their metric tools.

People have been asking us for years to switch to imperial. For all of the people who bought a metric tool and would prefer it in imperial, we're giving them the opportunity to get it in imperial without having to buy a new tool.

You aren't listening.  Your existing customers are mad because your new tools will only come in imperial.  They have invested in existing tools, they have converted to metric for their own reasons, and they want future access to metric tools.  Your tools are very expensive and yet you won't even consider supplying an inexpensive metric sticker with your future tools.

Do you really think millions of harbor freight buyers are going to buy your tools because of imperial depth settings?

I guarantee you that aftermarketers who currently make imperial scales for your tools will now start making metric scales for your tools.

Kinda silly.

His post was complaining about offering to convert existing metric tools. Not liking that we're switching to imperial is fine. (And, yes, I am listening.) Not liking that we're including an additional optional service is something else.

Again, you are not listening.  His post said. "Oh your forcing imperial on the U.S. customers AND you'll even switch it over for a fee? Im not trying to start trouble but holy crap I feel like I'm being trolled right now."

He can clarify for himself, but I think it highly more likely that his statement, "forcing imperial on U.S. customers" is a reference to the fact that you stated the tools in question would be offered in Imperial ONLY despite the fact it's a sticker change.

I think it makes a lot more sense that he is upset that he will not be able to buy metric scaled metric tools in the future then your interpretation that he thinks he would be forced to send in tools for conversion.  He is most likely pointing out the absurdity that Festool offers a service to rescale metric scaled metric tools already purchased to imperial scaled metric tools for a fee but won't include a simple sticker to keep a metric tool metric.  I also believe he is flabergasted (trolled in his words) that Festool is so tone deaf that existing customers who purchased expensive tools as part of a system really never wanted metric in the first place when they bought their tools and they really don't want metric now.

Even if that's not what he thinks, it is what several other's have stated and it's exactly what I think.  We are expressing our opinion.  You may ignore that opinion.  But I will make sure that you correctly understand what that opinion is rather than assuming we have some other opinion to be ignored.

Offline Eoj

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #212 on: June 23, 2016, 06:07 PM »
@TylerC  , The Kapex UG extensions are currently sold with metric scale . Will we see a change over to imperial ?

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 585
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #213 on: June 23, 2016, 06:28 PM »
Im not going to quote it because it's s long post but hurricane whisperer just nailed exactly what I meant by my post to a letter. It's just wrong that you are forcing a change to metric on us and them have the balls to offer to switch tools over to imperial for a fee.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #214 on: June 23, 2016, 06:43 PM »
Lets make sure we are focusing on the topic and not getting into arguments with each other.

Seth

Offline Ajax

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #215 on: June 23, 2016, 07:04 PM »
Since Tyler supplied photos we now know Festool has dumbed down the tools for the American market. Instead of mm increments (~1/25") new tool buyers will only get 1/16" increments.

So changing a sticker from metric to imperial is "dumbing down"?

What if the sticker had both units?

I have tools with both.  Are they dumbed down for Americans?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:07 PM by Ajax »
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Offline Ajax

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #216 on: June 23, 2016, 07:06 PM »
Some of you have asked about what increments and markings will be on the scales. I thought it might be easier to show than to tell. Here images of some of the new scales. Hopefully this will answer some questions. (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Very nice.  I might now consider a Festool router.  Adding the imperial scale makes it even more attractive for me.
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #217 on: June 23, 2016, 07:19 PM »
Ajax, the saw depth adjusts in mm and will continue to do so after the metric scale is replaced with 1/16" markings. That is just wrong.

The solution you suggest does sound good to me. I have added marks for standard material thicknesses to my saws so if Festool changed the saws to such a dual scale I wouldn't complain.

Some of the tools don't have enough room to legibly host dual scales. For those Festool should supply both scales and instructions on how to switch.

The scale on the router is so relative (depends on the bit and how it is inserted into the collet) so the scale could be attached in such a way that it is easy to remove and replace.

Offline Paul G

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #218 on: June 23, 2016, 07:23 PM »
Yes, dual scales would be ideal where possible, kinda like my trucks spedo.
+1

Offline Mismarked

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #219 on: June 23, 2016, 07:37 PM »
  I for some reason am more comfortable with depth adjustments in Imperial, but after having used Festool products for a while, I now prefer length measurements in millimeters for accuracy even though I still think better (without a calculator) in inches.
   I might never have purchased my first Festool (TS 55) if the dealer hadn’t told me I could easily change it to Imperial with a sticker, as I had never used metric before.  Before the first use, I put the Imperial sticker on it.
   I later bought the parallel guides, the LR32, and a few sets of the AZ drawers, which have plans in metric and precise holes specified in millimeters.  My first projects were homemade Sysports and some wall cabinets, and as a result I started using metric when drawing stuff in Sketchup, so all of these components worked better as a system.
   Even then, I never removed the Imperial sticker from the TS 55.  It is easier for me to do a rough depth estimate with the Imperial sticker and fine tune it by sight.
   My guess is that if a beginning woodworker in the US sees a Festool TS for the first time and it has Imperial measurements, he/she would be more inclined to give it a close look.  If it can be changed to metric in less than a minute with a sticker, that seems like a fairly minor issue.
   I have the OF 1400 and would probably prefer depth adjustments in Imperial, but metric has worked just fine to date.
   As for the planer, I probably wouldn’t get the HL 850, but my Dewalt planer has Imperial thickness measurements.  Would not want to change that to metric even if I could.
   On the parallel guides, though, it does seem surprising not to continue to offer metric as an option, or at least let the NA dealers decide whether to stock both.  If as a new woodworker I decided to make my first project a couple of shop cabinets fitted with AZ drawers, it would be extremely confusing to download Festool’s plans with cabinet dimensions in metric, drawer slides with holes spaced in millimeters and holes spaced in 32 millimeters, and then pull out the parallel guides with Imperial measurements.  I guess you could purchase a metric set from overseas and not really care about a warranty on that particular product, but what a pain, and maybe no 30 day return policy.

Online JimH2

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #220 on: June 23, 2016, 08:08 PM »
Ajax, the saw depth adjusts in mm and will continue to do so after the metric scale is replaced with 1/16" markings. That is just wrong.

The solution you suggest does sound good to me. I have added marks for standard material thicknesses to my saws so if Festool changed the saws to such a dual scale I wouldn't complain.

Some of the tools don't have enough room to legibly host dual scales. For those Festool should supply both scales and instructions on how to switch.

The scale on the router is so relative (depends on the bit and how it is inserted into the collet) so the scale could be attached in such a way that it is easy to remove and replace.

Did not think about the indents not lining up, which is probably why the TS switch is described as being more difficult. For through cuts being a little 1/16" (or even 1/8") makes no difference. There probably are uses that require an exact depth.

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #221 on: June 23, 2016, 08:47 PM »
Since Tyler supplied photos we now know Festool has dumbed down the tools for the American market. Instead of mm increments (~1/25") new tool buyers will only get 1/16" increments.

So changing a sticker from metric to imperial is "dumbing down"?

What if the sticker had both units?

I have tools with both.  Are they dumbed down for Americans?

Metric Festool routers are marked in 1 mm increments, then the micrometers are marked in 1/10 of a mm increment.  Imperial marked Festools will be marked in 1/16" increments (.063" vs .039" for a 1 mm increment) and the micrometers will still be marked in 1/10 mm increment since the screw pitch is the same.  So, you won't have a real idea of where you are in a consistent measurement system.  I consider this dumbing down.

My Woodpecker lift has 32 TPI lifting lead screw.  It is calibrated in with marks in parts of an inch and in thousandth.  One full revolution is a 1/32".  I can set zero, then dial in a depth and nail it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 08:50 PM by Hurricane Whisperer »

Offline shaun.mcc

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #222 on: June 23, 2016, 09:09 PM »
I agree with hurricane...and I'm still not convinced nor am I happy.

See this post a few years ago from another forum...the last post is poignant.

http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/miscellaneous/1553-has-festool-caused-you-switch-metric.html

We customers are passionate about these tools and therefore we are speaking up before a mistake is made that is more difficult to undo or alter...we do pay a premium and I would expect festool to take care of their customers demand. I get not wanting two sets of inventory...perhaps figure a better way or forget this nonsense. My opinion is that this really dumbs the tools down that were designed for mm. Surely the Germans don't like this.
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Offline robertgreen94

  • Posts: 24
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #223 on: June 23, 2016, 09:11 PM »
Ok Tyler, here is a question.  I buy a router, currently in metric.   It breaks, and is required to be sent back for repair.   One of the repair items is the scale.  Will be fixed with a metric scale, or converted to metric?
Also thank you for what you are doing, glad it's you and not me :)
If the uk gets out of Europe, do you plan to offer imperial there also?

Offline jbasen

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #224 on: June 23, 2016, 11:01 PM »
Wow.  Get sidetracked on other things for a day or two and look what happens to the fog.

Personally, I am stodgy and work in inches.  When stick on imperial scales were offered on eBay for a few tools I happily bought them.  That being said I understand that some have made the conversion and this is an issue for them.  I would add my vote to those that have suggested dual imperial/metric scales.

Having lived through the new coke debacle one of the issues was that it was a revolutionary change.  People, for the most part, are set in their ways.  While Coke's marketing studies told them that people liked the taste of new coke better the change went against their loyal customer base.  An evolutionary approach of offering new coke under another name wouldn't have created backlash and new coke might have taken over "coke classic" in the long term. 

Dual scales is the evolutionary approach. 

My $.02

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #225 on: June 23, 2016, 11:03 PM »
I fully understand that Festool has done their marketing research and they have determined that a lot of chips are being left on the table because they don't offer imperial scales on some of their tools. This point was shared with me several months ago while talking with a Festool employee. However my response to him was "Does Corporate really think that a simple imperial scale on a TS will convince the outliers that spend $100-$150 for a circ saw to cough up $660-$780 for a saw with an imperial scale? Especially a $700 saw (average) that still is adjusted in increments of a millimeter. I think that's the major disconnect in this conversation.

I think it behooves Festool to re-circle the wagons and ask these many requesters what their position would be if an imperial scale was added to the tool while the adjustment mechanism remained in millimeters. If these potential purchasers are so dependent on an imperial scale...they are also probably that dependent on an imperial adjustment method, otherwise they would be willing to adapt.
 

Offline erock

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #226 on: June 23, 2016, 11:38 PM »

If Festool Germany knew that North America primarily used imperial measurements, then why didn't they use imperial scales from the beginning of introducing Festool to the North American market?    All this crap could have been avoided years ago.

I'm not happy with this move or a couple of Festool USA pervious decisions.    Like others, I've  changed the way I measured my projects when I started using the Festool system.  I've invested a good amount of money in woodpecker and other  tools so I could measure in millimeters.   I've thought about adding an OF1010 or OF2200 to my line up.  I'm not going to fall for the pressure to buy a tool just so I have  a millimeter scale.  My OF1400 and TS55 are out of warranty.  If they should fail on me, I'm taking a good long look at other tool manufactures.     Changing the scale to imperial to potentially sell a few more tools to new customers while forgetting about the system you have in place just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

So you sell a new TS55 with the imperial scale to a new Festool customer.  He likes the saw.  Wants to buy a Domino, which will have a millimeter scale....he now has to work with both measurements or is forced to convert his measurements or wing it.    I'm sure that will lead to some interesting future FOG threads.   

Seneca has provided guys with imperial gauges for the Domino.  Someone has printed imperial scales for the routers and track saw.  Was this move really necessary?    Really?   

Eric

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 272
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #227 on: June 23, 2016, 11:58 PM »
Question/Suggestion for Tyler:

All the equipment noted as being available in Imperial bear a suffix: "IMP" with the exception of:

495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension

These items do not have moving machine parts;, they have only scales:

The LR32 system is not being changed. The Parallel Side Fence and the Parallel Guide Extension is mostly used in the field with the LR32 system. Therefore, during your busy schedule in Germany, it seems to me that you could make an appeal to practical Yankee logic and coax the company to offer:

495717   201182      Parallel Side Fence-IMP
495718   201183      Parallel Guide Extension-IMP

495718   201183      Parallel Side Fence-MET
495719   201184      Parallel Guide Extension-MET

While you are at it, you might suggest they offer the same 10% discount as they do on dust-systems on buying the LR32 system and the Fence and Guide extension as one unit. Sales tracking is likely to show these being bought together.

Second Question:

Are the adjustments in 1mm increments being maintained as you described? The math escapes me.

Third Question

Discuss fee and shipping costs for company conversion of existing equipment. Who pays for return shipping and what are the fees and how long will a conversion take? Where will it be done?

Fourth Question:

Imperial drill bits and Imperial router bits?

Thanks,

Have a nice trip. Torches and pitchforks likely await your return from Dr. Festool's castle....
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:31 AM by clark_fork »
Clark Fork

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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2016, 12:30 AM »
Well ... Here you go ... When someone in the US as pro Festool as @erock voices a negative Festool NA should really take a big deep breath and re-examine their thinking. Eric's pro Festool videos have driven up Festool sales around the world and now he's questioning buying more Festool tools.

Congratulations on a major screw up Festool, hope you have the intelligence to admit your mistakes and fix it. Sticking your head in the sand and carrying on down this path will not be very clever.

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 449
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2016, 12:46 AM »
Wow, lots of emotion in this one.
I also have adopted the metric system ,and so far so good.

 I think the move is not a great one ,but I also don't have think festool is stupid.
 My only concern is the router adjustments , in my small understanding of metric ,
the "new" router will have less fine adjustment .

Good luck Festool.
It certainly won't keep me from new tools , but it is a strang move.
Most folks seem to be against it , perhaps they will listen.
Charlie

Offline richk

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #230 on: June 24, 2016, 12:54 AM »
+1 to erock's comments. My sentiments exactly.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #231 on: June 24, 2016, 01:27 AM »
@TylerC

The solution out of this mess for Festool USA  is -

. Leave all current NA products Metric.
. When the HK55 and 85 reach NA release them in both Metric and Imperial.

This will provide the framers and carpenters with the Festool Imperial/Metric products they need and want, and provide the finish carpenters, cabinet and furniture makers and experienced hobbiests with their Metric tools. Tools which, if this Thread is any guide, they apparently want now and in the future.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:32 AM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Kev

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #232 on: June 24, 2016, 01:38 AM »
Funny thing is to me that Festool NA were in a perfect situation to drive adoption of the Metric system and use the pitch as another driver for selling their tools. I'd be very curious about recent senior Festool roles changes ...  [eek]

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 802
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #233 on: June 24, 2016, 01:40 AM »
What is this world coming to?  [bite tongue]

This seems very odd to me and I agree with most of the negative post about this change, not that my opinion matters to Festool. I doubt that by adding an imperial scale to a $700 metric tracksaw is going to generate a huge jump in sales.

This new decision along with the annual price increases have really changed my perception of Festool. At first I thought that I was buying into a system of high quality tools that should last for many years as a want-to-be hobbyist, but I'm not too sure anymore.

I also don't understand how it would be too expensive to offer both metric and imperial. They obviously already make and import the metric tools and they are planning on importing new imperial tools, so how would a shipment of 100 metric and 100 imperial tracksaws cost more to import and sell than 200 imperial tracksaws?

If anything I think that offering some tools metric only and others imperial only would cause confusion and frustration. I'm glad that I have already purchased more tools than I probably would ever need. I feel sorry for those just getting started with their Festool collection and will now have to buy imperial tools if they decide to continue investing in the "system".

At the end of the day these are just tools and there are plenty of options when looking to purchase a woodworking tool.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 09:16 AM by Runhard »
Daniel

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #234 on: June 24, 2016, 02:08 AM »
High drama thread of the year!

  [crying]
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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2016, 03:47 AM »
Closing this thread I don't think is necessary, but if questions come up, I think we should give @TylerC the opportunity and time to get the answers, not speculate.  I just want to say that Tyler is getting slammed for doing his job and presenting announcements to this group.  Tyler in my opinion you are doing a good job, keep it up.

So the general rule of thumb was to add 5 or 6 mm to compensate for the rail, what is the new recommendation?  5 mm is equal to .19 inches.

It is 6-mm (1/4), and the Bosch is 5-mm.

If they offered the saw with the ability to fit on the Bosch rail, it would be an improvement (IMO).

Offline FishyD

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2016, 05:07 AM »
As a recent adopter of the Festool system (just drills and jigsaw for now), this change seems completely out of line with what seems to me to be a pillar of the Festool system: consistency. To summarize (based on current information): only some of the lineup will offer imperial scales and those that do will actually only be half imperial because detents and thread pitches of micro-adjustments and presets will still be in mm which at 1/25" doesn't line up with the imperial system. As an engineer who works to establish standards with companies outside the U.S., I am comfortable working with either system but pick one! When you think about it, these new imperial tools are a perfect analogy for the status of the U.S.'s defacto unit system: a completely disjointed mess that is far less effective than either of the unit systems by themselves.

I have been saving up for a big Festool purchase to include the TS55, CT-36 and OF-1400 to jump feet first into the entire system. I guess I'll have to either purchase them now (unlikely) or perhaps not at all. I will not have one of the most expensive saws on the market that has two unit systems on the same adjustment, while at the same time partially justifying my purchase because of the consistency and simplicity this system offers. I hope either good news comes back that Festool has fully committed to Imperial in NA or that metric tools will still be available; for those of use that prefer metric or think having a combination imperial and metric on the same tool and across the line in absolutely insane from an consistency standpoint.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:29 AM by FishyD »

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #237 on: June 24, 2016, 09:23 AM »
In the vein of purchase decision making in light of the change. I had planned on purchasing a Carvex kit and a OF1010 in August.
I had also planned on finally get a Kapex and the UG cart in January.
The Festool Blog mentioned that the UG measurements will switch to imperial. I would not like that.
I am 45 minutes from a dealer, can anyone tell me if the UG markings are easily replaceable? I never took the time to notice.
If not I will probably forgo the Carvex and get the UG extensions only, sans cart, getting the cart with the Kapex in January.
Any information would be appreciated.

I concur with erock. I made a $4000 initial purchase about 4 years ago, and never looked back. I am an advanced DYIer, as a former remodeling contractor, and moderately skilled furniture maker. Made the switch to metric and am glad I did.
Thanks in advance for the information on the UG markings.
M__

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 802
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2016, 09:50 AM »
In the vein of purchase decision making in light of the change. I had planned on purchasing a Carvex kit and a OF1010 in August.
I had also planned on finally get a Kapex and the UG cart in January.
The Festool Blog mentioned that the UG measurements will switch to imperial. I would not like that.
I am 45 minutes from a dealer, can anyone tell me if the UG markings are easily replaceable? I never took the time to notice.
If not I will probably forgo the Carvex and get the UG extensions only, sans cart, getting the cart with the Kapex in January.
Any information would be appreciated.

I concur with erock. I made a $4000 initial purchase about 4 years ago, and never looked back. I am an advanced DYIer, as a former remodeling contractor, and moderately skilled furniture maker. Made the switch to metric and am glad I did.
Thanks in advance for the information on the UG markings.
M__

246585-0

My scale doesn't seem to be able to be removed easily but what you could do is add a scale to the adjacent edge of the profile. I'm pretty sure that I've seen a picture on here of someone doing that.

Daniel

Offline Rustys

  • Posts: 39
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2016, 10:25 AM »
As a recent adopter of the Festool system (just drills and jigsaw for now), this change seems completely out of line with what seems to me to be a pillar of the Festool system: consistency. To summarize (based on current information): only some of the lineup will offer imperial scales and those that do will actually only be half imperial because detents and thread pitches of micro-adjustments and presets will still be in mm which at 1/25" doesn't line up with the imperial base 12 system. As an engineer who works to establish standards with companies outside the U.S., I am comfortable working with either system but pick one! When you think about it, these new imperial tools are a perfect analogy for the status of the U.S.'s defacto unit system: a completely disjointed mess that is far less effective than either of the unit systems by themselves.

I have been saving up for a big Festool purchase to include the TS55, CT-36 and OF-1400 to jump feet first into the entire system. I guess I'll have to either purchase them now (unlikely) or perhaps not at all. I will not have one of the most expensive saws on the market that has two unit systems on the same adjustment, while at the same time partially justifying my purchase because of the consistency and simplicity this system offers. I hope either good news comes back that Festool has fully committed to Imperial in NA or that metric tools will still be available; for those of use that prefer metric or think having a combination imperial and metric on the same tool and across the line in absolutely insane from an consistency standpoint.

I agree, I just made my initial purchase and planned on jumping into Metric with more purchases. Now I'm hesitant and may just purchase another brand. Metric is much better and I like how everything in Festool line integrates. Now it will be a mess with some being imperial and some metric. I would like the ability to choose. Just one input from a new customer that may not stay. Luckily I'm still in my 30 days.

Russ