Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 66289 times)

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Offline Throwback7r

  • Posts: 294
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #240 on: June 24, 2016, 10:50 AM »
I am with the guy that asked about service? Also, I work with my festools every day so I use metric every day.  With that being said ,creating a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently, does not really work well when some your tools are Metric and one or two of them are imperial. Since you will be offering to convert metric tools to imperial will you offer to change the imperial tools to metric, and if not why not? Please help me understand how this will create a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently if we have to switch between 2 measuring systems?

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Offline QuailRider43

  • Posts: 83
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #241 on: June 24, 2016, 01:12 PM »
Jebus H. Tap-dancing Christo!  [eek]  Canadian here.  I've invested thousands in Festool, and will likely spend thousands more in the future... and I will NOT purchase an imperial-only Festool product.  EVER!  Imperial is a horrible throw-back that I've happily abandoned wherever possible.  I understand the desire to crack the US market, but please give your users a choice.  Just include a dual scale, or a swap-able imperial scale or dial as an option.  How hard can it be to allow both units?  If you really want to crack the US market, how about just lowering your prices and improving availability?   [mad]

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 359
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #242 on: June 24, 2016, 01:14 PM »
If only the sticker is changing, it should be easy and cost effective to offer both imperial and metric.  That is something a premium tool manufacturer would do.
Each dealer could order whatever he felt that he could sell.

@TylerC I agree with this.  Please consider.
Vijay Kumar

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #243 on: June 24, 2016, 01:26 PM »
Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #244 on: June 24, 2016, 01:51 PM »
Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

But still a very cheap and interchangeable part, nonetheless?

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #245 on: June 24, 2016, 02:21 PM »

To be honest, I knew that there would be some negative reactions on the FOG. You all are our most passionate and long-time customers, and you're more likely to be committed to metric than other craftsmen. I completely understand that some of you aren't happy about this, and you're entitled to that.

Perhaps this was a worse reaction than you anticipated? I don't see many happy folks here at all. I haven't seen the positive reactions in the wider industry, but I wonder do they know that this is a change of labeling only and things like the track saw depth clicks are still metric along with other tools that won't be changing resulting in a necesary metric/imperial hodgepodge.

I don't mind criticism. It makes Festool better. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean that you have to like this decision, but please appreciate that we're trying -- sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, sometimes TBD -- to do what's in the best interest of a wide variety of people (current customers, new/potential customers, dealers, and ourselves to name a few). It's a tricky balancing act, and I'm sure that you can relate to that in your own work or personal lives. This decision was made because SO many people over the years have asked us to do so. We can't please everyone.

How about this for a plan:
If you have a specific question, please ask by the end of tomorrow (Friday). If it's a question that you've already asked that hasn't been (thoroughly) answered, feel free to ask again. I'll be traveling all next week with several other people involved in this decision and transition. During the trip, I'll try to get as many answers and clarifications that I can.

We'll be traveling to Germany, so please be patient if I'm slow to post answers. Due to the combination of jetlag and a jam-packed itinerary, I can almost guarantee that I won't be on the FOG much.

We don't necessarily need to shut this thread down after tomorrow night, but let's try to generally wrap it up then -- at least until I return with your answers. Sound fair?

I doubt my questions will be answered substantively but here goes:

-Why didn't Festool pursue a dual scale strategy where ever possible?
-If no dual scales are offered, what actually makes it so insurmountable to offer both the metric and imperial versions for sale?

'It's just too hard' isn't a substantive answer. Places like Woodpecker do it all the time.
+1

Offline Hunter

  • Posts: 27
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #246 on: June 24, 2016, 02:51 PM »
In the hopes that this decision can still be changed: I think this is a short sighted mistake.

Objectively, Metric is simply a better system.  A system of measurement where all units are divisible by 10 is simply more rational and less error prone.  The rest of the world didn't switch to metric over time because it was fun, it switched because it's better. Even in the US, precision and scientific fields have moved or been moving to metric for a while now.  I know there are plenty who either legitimately haven't been touched by this trend or have managed to ignore it, but the trend is there.  Every year more stuff is done in metric, not less.

Personally, I was raised using the imperial system.  Good old feet and inches... But my woodworking has improved since/because I switched.  It's so much easier to operate in mm.  Quick, what's half of 53" 7/32.... Heck the fraction part alone is annoying and 53.21875 would be easier to work with. But I can divide 1352mm in half without even using fingers (or toes).  Even when people give me initial measurements in inches, I just convert and round to the nearest even millimeter (and I do mean "even", as in "ends with an even number").  That works great, and the slight loss in initial measurement accuracy never matters because people who give imperial measurements never expect better than 1/8" accuracy anyhow. Heck, even my sheet goods in the US are normally metric despite the labeling... 3/4" ply never measures exactly 3/4" but for giggles check it with a metric tape and you'll see why (19mm).

Please keep Festool precise, uniformly standard, and metric.  Please keep supplying, or being willing to supply, the imperial overlay stickers for people who want it.

I simply will not buy another woodworking tool that is imperial.  I purposely chose every tape, stick, rule, and square in metric and will not go back. If Festool doesn't support this here in NA then I will possibly import, but more likely will find another brand that will. I do love my Festools, and am so very glad that I already have most of the tools mentioned, otherwise I would right now be contemplating how to move immediately away from Festool. What I would not do is buy an imperial Festool, so if you want to cater to me or anyone like me then you should expand the current TS55REQ system (optional labels) to the other tools and not force a backwards step on people who don't want it.

Hopeful regards,
  Hunter
TS-55R, D-500, OF-1400, LR-32, CSX, MFT/3, CT-36, 3000 rail

Offline epicxt

  • Posts: 424
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #247 on: June 24, 2016, 03:00 PM »
Count me as another person in opposition to this move by Festool. Being in the US basically meant that to use the tools offered by Festool effectively one had to embrace the metric system in our work. I'm disappointed that Festool has taken this stance to not offer continued availability of certain tools in metric, and the ones that are being changed to Imperial are actually a mish-mash of the two systems, or "Imperi-metric". ;)
I support their desire to make offerings that can have a broader market appeal in the US, but am dead set against doing that by abandoning the users that established their foothold here.
Personally, I think that the better step is to offer both, as has been stated before, and also put more effort into making the tools that we need available here. Also, expanding Imperial sized router accessories or importing more metric router bits would go a long way. I do a lot of mortising using the mfs system and am often frustrated by the lack of metric spiral bits or imperial copy rings for the 1400. I know that the copy rings are offered in Imperial sizing for the 2200, but can't seem to locate them for the 1400.

Anyway, hats off to you, @TylerC for weathering the storm. It seems a lot of this uproar could have been avoided by polling the user base before moving ahead with such a broad policy.
n = number of Festools I've got.  (n + 1) = Festools I want

Offline Master Carpenter

  • Posts: 90
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2016, 03:38 PM »
I've only scanned half of this thread so I apologize if this is off.

Which scale used doesn't matter much to me because I can work in both equally well. It's not that hard and don't see it as a big deal. I can understand wanting to keep all tools on the same system thou, when I build cabinets its metric day and the tape I use only has metric on it, the rest of the time I work in imperial.

 What I want for scales on my tools is a digital readout like my calipers. If festool is as great as there marketing tells us, I think that level of precision is missing. I don't use calipers all the time, but when precision matters, it's the best way.  I'd be able to quickly measure my material and set my tool to exactly what I want. And most calipers have a button to go from metric to imperial fractions to imperial decimal.
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Offline neilc

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #249 on: June 24, 2016, 05:11 PM »
@1951CorrectCraft - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric.   

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking. 
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:13 PM by neilc »

Offline Keifer

  • Posts: 3
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #250 on: June 24, 2016, 08:02 PM »
So, after this change to Imperial fails to generate substantial additional sales in NA, how long will it be until I can purchase my Metric tools again?

Offline JimD

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #251 on: June 24, 2016, 08:55 PM »
I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part. 

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 437
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #252 on: June 24, 2016, 09:05 PM »
The idea of the metric scales being a bigger impediment to sales than the price reminds me of the joke about someone thinking that scented toilet paper would be the answer to bathroom odors.

Actually I am sure that Festool will probably have many more additional customers than customers lost. I want an HKC and I prefer to use batteries I already have as spares. I do not think that depth setting will be as important in cut off uses. Setting the depth well past the board thickness is easy to do in imperial or metric.

Offline Ajax

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #253 on: June 24, 2016, 09:37 PM »
I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part.

I'm with you.  I do everything in imperial.  I could do metric but I choose not to.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Mike B

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #254 on: June 24, 2016, 09:46 PM »
The parallels between this move by Festool USA and the Brexit situation are interesting; Both could be seen as capitulation to simplistic/nationalistic desires rather than continuing the pursuit of integrated excellence (in some way).

Sad to see Festool USA abandoning those brave metric journeymen who made Festool USA what it is...

Personally, the solution of offering to convert tools (for more profit) to imperial tools is so alien to me, it feels like offering to send in a tool to have it broken. Which it kinda is if you believe in the Festool system. ;-)

Offline McNally Family

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #255 on: June 25, 2016, 03:22 AM »
@1951CorrectCraft - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric.   

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ELMRIZI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&p;smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER;sc=1&

https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-SM412WMERL-Adhesive-Graduation-Interval/dp/B00ELMR2OK/ref=pd_sim_328_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=513hKER5XzL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=RMVJT4RSD1C85K1Q3QCB
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:27 AM by McNally Family »
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #256 on: June 25, 2016, 03:33 AM »
Well the European dress sizes are also different from the US. If you get a chance to hug someone in an Eu size 8 you just about slap yourself on the back, whereas a US size 8 is says "8" but it is different.

I am not sure it applies 100%, to woodworking tools... but most fellas seem to do fine with either, once they understand the system. ;)

Offline SoonerFan

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #257 on: June 25, 2016, 09:01 AM »
This thread has mentioned the New Coke analogy a couple of times.  I for for one hope Festool Leadership read that case study in business school and like Coke reverses a decision which angered the faithful.

Imagine the joy among the loyal FOG users if Festool said:

1.  We heard you loud and clear --- metric will continue to be an option in NA
2.  We are sorry and did not realize the move would solicit this much concern
3.  In additional to all current tools being available in metric we will begin providing NA access to all tools currently available in the UK

I can dream can't I?  Seriously even If I had to special order and wait longer so Festool USA does not have to inventory both tools that would be fine with me.  Like many others I now have lots invested in metric tools, tape measures, rules and squares.  My forthcoming Incra table is also going to be metric.  With the exception of a TS75 which I want cannot justify at this time I will have what I need.  However when something new and game changing like the Domino comes along I am sure I will want metric with the warranty.

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 177
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #258 on: June 25, 2016, 09:11 AM »
I've got a pretty good idea instead of wasting there time on this leave the tools the way they are and get of there  and figure out what's going on with all the burned up kapex's.

Offline slalom

  • Posts: 37
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #259 on: June 25, 2016, 09:25 AM »
Interesting thread- I am sorry to hear about the change as the movement to SI makes sense. At least in Canada where metric is a legal measure the continuation of two systems is an unnecessary expense. As some have said, many products (plywood) are imperial in all dimensions except the most important - thickness. We really have messed this up. Seriously, my car tires are metric in width but the wheels are imperial.  This is almost as crazy as Brexit.

Speaking of which following Brexit will England go back to imperial lumber? Perhaps shillings too.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #260 on: June 25, 2016, 09:28 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #261 on: June 25, 2016, 09:31 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

However "Imperial" came from the origional imperialists...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5063
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #262 on: June 25, 2016, 09:38 AM »
I am not sure it applies 100%, to woodworking tools...but most fellas seem to do fine with either, once they understand the system. ;)

 [thumbs up]    Funny     [thumbs up]
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 10:35 AM by Cheese »

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #263 on: June 25, 2016, 10:27 AM »
The outcry either for or against the change is somewhat surprising to me.  I did not buy Festool because of the metric system.  I actually converted to metric long after my first Festool purchases and my change was driven by using the 32mm system for cabinets.  After several years of just using it for cabinets, I switched everything to metric.  Changing these tools to US customary units will not drive away but the dual scale option does make a lot more sense.  It is clear to me that Festool is making this change to have more appeal to the general US market.

This is a bit tongue in cheek but; what's next? - public demand to change the model numbers from TS55 to TS2-3/16 and the TS75 to TS3?


Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #264 on: June 25, 2016, 10:38 AM »
This thread has mentioned the New Coke analogy a couple of times.  I for for one hope Festool Leadership read that case study in business school and like Coke reverses a decision which angered the faithful.

Imagine the joy among the loyal FOG users if Festool said:

1.  We heard you loud and clear --- metric will continue to be an option in NA
2.  We are sorry and did not realize the move would solicit this much concern
3.  In additional to all current tools being available in metric we will begin providing NA access to all tools currently available in the UK

I can dream can't I?  Seriously even If I had to special order and wait longer so Festool USA does not have to inventory both tools that would be fine with me.  Like many others I now have lots invested in metric tools, tape measures, rules and squares.  My forthcoming Incra table is also going to be metric.  With the exception of a TS75 which I want cannot justify at this time I will have what I need.  However when something new and game changing like the Domino comes along I am sure I will want metric with the warranty.

I currently have an incra fence in imperial and recently found out it can be converted to metric.

I will be converting it to metric so it works in compliment to the parallel guides and everything else I'm doing.

Imagine that,  incra and woodpeckers and other USA manufacturers make imperial and metric tools while FESTOOL makes metric tools but won't let us have them because they know we really only wanted imperial scales on metric tools.

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #265 on: June 25, 2016, 11:34 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Your right.  It's a Metrainer thread, unless your Festool and then it's a Metrexit thread.

P.S.  In another thread, long long ago, you recommended Jen Brand foam brushes.  I tried them and they were great.  Thanks.  The cheap ones are floppy and come off the handle.  The Jen brand have better quality foam, a better interior support and better attachment to the handle.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 12:15 PM by Hurricane Whisperer »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #266 on: June 25, 2016, 11:53 AM »
Lets not make this into a Brexit topic.

Thanks,

Seth

Your right.  It's a Metrainer thread, unless your Festool and then it's a Metrexit thread.

Metrexit...now that there is funny  [thumbs up]
+1

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #267 on: June 25, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Methinks someone at Festool has "gone tappy", as my dear, sweet, bald-headed dad used to say (as in "got tapioca for brains").  I, for one, went metric with no regrets, and now Festool has taken a step into the dark ages.  I'm delighted that I already own all the requisite metric Festool goodies, but sympathize with those remaining to conquer the divide. 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3571
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #268 on: June 25, 2016, 09:11 PM »
Methinks someone at Festool has "gone tappy", as my dear, sweet, bald-headed dad used to say (as in "got tapioca for brains").  I, for one, went metric with no regrets, and now Festool has taken a step into the dark ages.  I'm delighted that I already own all the requisite metric Festool goodies, but sympathize with those remaining to conquer the divide.

It is hard to believe Germans would think it's okay to slap an Imperial scale on a metric tool, so maybe they did go tappy.

I'll just go ahead and apologize for stereotyping Germans.

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 272
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #269 on: June 26, 2016, 12:03 PM »
 I was impressed with Festool's  uphill marketing strategy challenge when I looked over the latest WOOD magazine supplement on shops. There was virtually no evidence of track saws, or MFT items. Festool is for the elite and there is little evidence this will change. I acknowledge the use of Festool on This Old House but this is a rarified level of exposure that is not seeping into the shops of Mr. and Mrs America.

In the latest Wood Magazine, there is an article on sanders. Festool took "Top TooL" honors with the ETS EC 125/3EQ, However, reading left to right the prices tell the story: Craftsman $80, DeWalt $80, Festool=$385,Hitachi $80, Makita, $85, Makita $100.

To paraphrase from the political olden days, it is not the unit of measure.... metric or imperial...

It's the pricing, stupid!

Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

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"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum