Author Topic: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America  (Read 66267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2016, 10:40 AM »
Sounds like a decision you'd make after way to long smoking crack cocaine. Stupid to the point of hilarious. I'm so glad I live in Australia.

If this story isn't a joke, Festool US management certainly is a joke.

Be civil. You're on the line.

@Tyler OK then, I'll apologise for my crack.

So you're obviously on side with this master plan Tyler .. please explain how it's a good thing for your countrymen that have embraced Festool and the wider system that is based on the metric system. How does it make it easy when only the "volume core" of the product range is converted to imperial .. and shed some light on why both options are not to be offered .. or a dual scale is not possible.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2016, 10:41 AM »
  I almost bought a TS55 last week.

  I much rather have the imperial version. I wonder how long it will take for the average festool retailer to sell all current saws and start selling the new versions.

They include, or once included,  an imperial sticker to go over the metric one that indicates cut depth. All you need to do is peel and stick.

Did something else change that is making you wait? Are the detent depth stops also changing to better align with imperial?

 the blog says In the case of the TS saws (TSC, TS 55, TS 75) and HL 850, these require extensive teardown to replace the scales.

 makes me think they changed more than the markings on the front. If I can just add a sticker to go imperial, I will get the metric one.

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 311
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2016, 10:44 AM »
I thought this was a great idea, until I got to the part that metric would no longer be offered.  Festool products have pushed me to convert to metric- although not entirely yet (as someone mentioned in another post, I think imperial, then measure in metric)- and now I don't want to go back.  Yes- offer the imperial option, but please don't take the metric option away.

I'm hoping that, by the time I have the funds to fork out for a 850 planer, that there's still some metric ones around.

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2016, 10:52 AM »
@TylerC Will there be ways to retrofit with imperial measurements those tools that are switching over from metric, like what is available, for example, on the track saw?
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline erock

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2016, 10:55 AM »
Don't the guys who want imperial markings have stickers to place over the metric scale?

A simple sticker provided with the new tool could make everyone happy.

Eric

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2016, 10:56 AM »
@TylerC Will there be ways to retrofit with imperial measurements those tools that are switching over from metric, like what is available, for example, on the track saw?

Yes (assuming that I understand your question correctly). We will have options for you to retrofit your metric tools to imperial. Details on that will be coming in the near future.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 768
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 11:00 AM »
Who cares its just marks on a stick, never use them away. Nothing on the actual tool will change just the scale, like most conversions of this type. Its just marketing to a perceived group.

John

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01 AM »
And do we get to start calling the TS55 the TS2.16535?  And maybe some day, instead of the Rotex 150, I can show off my Rotex 5.90551 to my friends and colleagues?

I think overall it's a good move, particularly for the routers and the parallel guides.  As far as expanding the customer base -- Although I don't have any specific knowledge, it's hard for me to believe that there would be too many people of the sort who would be attracted to Festool in the first place (professionals, serious hobbyists, tool fetishists), who would go out of their way to seek out a dealer or do research online, and then, who would then, at the moment of making a decision, say to themselves, "ewwwww!  metric!" and opt for something else.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 729
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01 AM »
When I was in business school and we were studying the underlying causes for the success and failure of different firms, one of my professors said, "Some companies continue to make money despite themselves."

Personally, I think these tools should still be available with metric scales in the North American market but I'm sure Festool will be fine.

Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 371
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 11:10 AM »
 I don't think trying to convince blue collar workers into using metric because it's what the rest of world uses is a very logical argument.  Go to a typical job site in the states and ask these guys to switch to metric.  This is a no brainer if festool wants to sell more tools.  The world will use metric and America always will use imperial so get used to it.  I'm happy they are doing this and so is anyone else who never uses metric at work or on the jobsite

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8614
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 11:19 AM »
   

  I remember when I was getting ready to buy an ATF55 thinking about the fact that it had a metric scale. And actually considering it as part of the decision. After the fact it turned out to be no big deal. Once I moved on to the TS55 (not REQ) I did use an add on imperial sticker. Again no big deal but just more convenient for me. On my TSC55 I would prefer to have an imperial scale, but not a deal breaker. The thing I actually don't like on the TSC55 is the dual on rail off rail scale. I was always have to think about which one I should be using (haven't used it very many times yet though).

    I don't think I have ever used the scale on the 1400 router. I use gauge blocks to set depths. So it could probably not have any scale at all.

    I would prefer an imperial scale on the HL850. That is something that I find to be a real nuisance and generally something that I need to be exact. So converting 1/16" to whatever in mm is a place to introduce error.

    I think there are several metric or imperial usage methods at work in NA. Very user dependent. But in light of my first line, "I remember when I was getting ready to buy an ATF55 thinking about the fact that it had a metric scale", it probably makes sense for Festool to switch to imperial in NA. Simply so that buyers are not put off by thinking that the metric scales will be a big problem. The degree of whether or not the scale is a problem for the user will vary. But after someone starts using the tools, I think the scale problem starts to diminish in ones thinking. At least that was the case for me.

   Though I would prefer to work and have everything in metric I am just waaay to tuned in to thinking in imperial.

Seth

Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 11:20 AM »
Really hope Festool reconsiders after seeing the backlash in this forum.  If not, my future purchases will likely be Mafell as I am not interested in going back to imperial after seeing the benefits of metric. 

Offline cred

  • Posts: 9
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 11:27 AM »
I have to agree that it is incredibly disappointing to hear that the metric counterparts will no longer be sold in NA.  Some (many?) of us appreciate the fact that Festool tools are metric, and our workflows depend on that.  Sadly, if Festool is going to move to solely imperial standards, then going forward I'll no longer be buying Festool.
While adding support for imperial measurements does make some business sense and may increase the customer, removing metric support alienates the existing base. This is a significant gamble on the part of Festool, who may lose existing customers and fail to attract significant numbers of new ones.

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 11:35 AM »

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

Cheers
JC

 I started building my dream house 6 months ago. Clearly, I'm no expert. But I did go to a engineering school too.

 My House plans dimensions where imperial, center to center measures in inches

 Concrete thickness in inches (but strength in megapascals)
 
 LVLs and I-Joist specifier sheets where in inches. Same with the I-joists web hole cutting instructions.

 Plumbing: Imperial

Garage doors : imperial sizes, and so on.

 Not once did I order something using the metric system, except for the concrete. The fact that lumber is cut using the metric system is irrelevant, simply because 19mm plywood is made to replace the real 3/4 inch plywood and nobody cares for the .05 mm difference.(except engineers :P)

 A lot of lumber sold in Canada is still named after the old imperial sizes. Contractors and framers still refer to these sizes & lumber yards employees are familliar with them. So no, Canada is not metric at 100% yet.
 
 






 

 



 

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1747
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 11:41 AM »
May have set a new FOG record 46 posts in ~2.5 hours. Or 150 minutes.

At least we are all on the same time scale. 8)

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3039
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 11:47 AM »
I can't think of a situation when I look at the scale when using a saw, router or planer. With the router in particular, much more depends on the bit being used than anything else.

For the TS55, I just adjust the depth of the cut to the material.

Thankfully the domino is not included in this change. That really would be significant because the cutters are staying metric.

So for me this is all a storm in a teacup, even though it makes no sense to me why Festool would go down this road.

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 11:52 AM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

Offline SethThompson

  • Posts: 23
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 12:03 PM »
One tool that I think will be way less fun to use is the domino. When its in metric I hardly have to think about it because everything is is tens.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8614
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2016, 12:05 PM »
One tool that I think will be way less fun to use is the domino. When its in metric I hardly have to think about it because everything is is tens.

The Domino is not on the list of tools being changed.

Seth

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 871
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 12:08 PM »

Canada is metric. All stength testing and certification of lumber fabricated and sold in Canada is done using metric units. Try to find a 3/4" thick of plywood made in Canada. Impossible. They are fabricated using metric sizes.

I remember when I did my thesis for my Structural Engineering degree, 25+ years ago, that all lumber, trusses, gusset plates etc, were metric and all findings were published in metric.

Cheers
JC

 I started building my dream house 6 months ago. Clearly, I'm no expert. But I did go to a engineering school too.

 My House plans dimensions where imperial, center to center measures in inches

 Concrete thickness in inches (but strength in megapascals)
 
 LVLs and I-Joist specifier sheets where in inches. Same with the I-joists web hole cutting instructions.

 Plumbing: Imperial

Garage doors : imperial sizes, and so on.

 Not once did I order something using the metric system, except for the concrete. The fact that lumber is cut using the metric system is irrelevant, simply because 19mm plywood is made to replace the real 3/4 inch plywood and nobody cares for the .05 mm difference.(except engineers :P)

 A lot of lumber sold in Canada is still named after the old imperial sizes. Contractors and framers still refer to these sizes & lumber yards employees are familliar with them. So no, Canada is not metric at 100% yet.

Yes you are correct. In the construction industry old names are still being used as they are easier to say and remember. It's like asking for a Kleenex. Most people say Kleenex, which is a name brand, but we should say Facial Tissue.
For the LVL and IjJoist spec sheets, you are correct as well. If the parent company is american they will publish their specs in imperial but before selling anything up here they must adhere to all National, Provincial and Local codes and must get CSA approval, which are all metric.
If you take a look at Nordic.ca which makes LVL's you can choose if you want American or Canadian. The Canadian specs are all metric as per the National building code.
Canada is 100% metric. People in the construction industry are still using imperial names, but I can guarantee you, that eventhough we call it a 2x4 it's a 38x89.

Offline johninthecamper

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 284
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2016, 12:08 PM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.
nonfog response has been largely positive
Of course it has, you show metric to average American, what do you expect
People on here use them,the people who responded positively probly aren't. loss of system is not worth it to me.as much as I don't like to be converted,I would still buy metric

Offline fidelfs

  • Posts: 527
  • Houston, TX
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2016, 12:13 PM »
What will happen to the consumables for existent customers?

5mm bits for 32mm cabinet?
The 35mm bore bit for the hinge?
dominos (not the machine)?

I need to know so I can buy now, or move to another brand.
There is never a situation where it can't be done with the right hand tool - even though it may be a lot more work.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2016, 12:15 PM »
Who cares its just marks on a stick, never use them away. Nothing on the actual tool will change just the scale, like most conversions of this type. Its just marketing to a perceived group.

As usual John @kcufstoidi , I completely agree and a very reasoned response to this topic.
I am switching between metric and imperial all day, I am sorry I wasted Tyler's time.
I am sure one of the great third party Festool accessory manufacturing companies will sell me a nice metric sticker to replace the imperial one that will come on any new tools I buy.
I need to get a life.
Tim

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2016, 12:22 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

RMW

No, I think the conclusion was a 0.00254% increase
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 1051
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2016, 12:23 PM »
What will happen to the consumables for existent customers?

5mm bits for 32mm cabinet?
The 35mm bore bit for the hinge?
dominos (not the machine)?

I need to know so I can buy now, or move to another brand.

None of this changes. Cutting scales are the only things affected.

Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1143
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2016, 12:26 PM »
A simple sticker provided with the new tool could make everyone happy.

Eric
[/quote]

This is the best option in my opinion, plus it gives the consumer the choice.  In theory switching to imperial makes sense, but having some tools and accessories remain metric and some imperial makes it even more confusing. 
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2016, 12:31 PM »
I haven't read all the posts here, so sorry if any of these points have been made...

Sorry, but I am not on the "happy" bandwagon regarding Festool's announcement to ONLY offer their tools in the US as imperial only! This is just going to make it frustrating to add a new "imperial" tool for those of us that have a large investment in their current tools. Imagine having two routers with metric and a new one in imperial. Using an imperial TS55 with metric parallel guides...

If this was a marketing/sales problem for Festool in the US, they should have "added" imperial while retaining metric. Or. like the TS55 REBQ, offer a second scale as a sticker. Sadly, I don't think Festool thought this out!

One last thought - people who buy Festool tools know exactly what they are getting and "buy" into a system. Their tools are different - quality, engineered, precise - and German. Most of us are smart and sophisticated enough to use their tools - if they are trying to "bring" more customers into the fold, using imperial isn't the barrier for new sales, it's cost. But that's a whole other topic...

Offline RVHernandez

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2016, 12:35 PM »
Surely your marketing folks have not concluded that there is 0.00245% increase in sales potential by catering to the US Imperial prejudice?

Considering that imperial dominates North America, this move should make Festool more accessible to a much wider group of craftsmen.

Price is more a consideration, but that's another discussion...

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 871
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2016, 12:35 PM »
I must have way too much time on my hands. Been doing some research and found the following.

"The Metric Conversion Act of 1975, as amended by the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988, establishes the modern metric system (System International or SI) as the preferred system of measurement in the United States. It requires that, to the extent feasible, the metric system be used in all federal procurement, grants, and business-related activities by September 30, 1992."

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2016, 12:37 PM »
A couple of things here:

1. While Festool is growing very rapidly in North America, our market share is still really small. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Imperial is what is used by the vast majority of NA craftsmen. Metric has always been a barrier for people considering Festool. Converting our North American tools to North American standards isn't the craziest thing.

2. Providing two versions of the same tools simply doesn't make sense. It would be far too expensive and complicated to simultaneously provide both tools. Other power tool manufacturers don't offer both metric and imperial versions of their tools either. It's easy to say, "Just make both." It's much harder to actually pull off in a financially feasible way.

3. While the baseless speculation about our financial solvency is always entertaining, it's still baseless speculation.

4. It's interesting that many of the harshest responses have come from people outside of NA. Obviously, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but it will be interesting to see how the majority of craftsmen in imperial-dominant countries respond. The non-FOG response to this so far as been largely positive.

So .. what are these "imperial-dominant" countries - outside of North America?