Author Topic: Folks Hate The Metric System  (Read 32426 times)

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Offline leadpipe58

  • Posts: 1
Folks Hate The Metric System
« on: April 20, 2007, 07:19 AM »
 Greeting Fellow Festool Fans

  I show the festools and I get "I hate metric".Maybe just to set it there ways to change.
We all know it  is simple,easer in most all cases. 
 My question is would A custom print out or sticker to go over the scales in fractional be a help to any one?
 I ask because the question was asked of me. 80% of the time I will just eye it up and don't use the scale on A TS55 or depth on a 1400.
  Just though I might get some feedback.
       thank you
        John

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Offline fcraven

  • Posts: 68
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007, 09:07 AM »
I like the metric stystem, but the materials I use, and everything else around me is imperial, so I think in inches.

I actually did exactly what you mentioned. Using some white low stick tape (I used it because it was white and smooth), I scaled up where inches were. so now, If I need to cut a 1x board I simple look on the Inch side and select...3/4"   :).

I also have my inch marks indexed down about 5mm, or the height of the guide.

Offline Dan Clark

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007, 09:24 AM »
Attached is a document in MS Word (2003 and before) format that contains the measurements from 1/16" to 6" in 1/16" increments, decimal inches, fractions, and millimeters.   Also attached is a screen shot so see what it looks like.

I created this so that I could convert back and forth quickly.

Regards,

Dan.

Offline Dan Uhlir

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007, 09:33 AM »
Good morning

          i've been servicing downhill and nordic ski's for 30 years, so i'm well acquauinted with the metric system and i really prefer the system no fractions, and over those thirty years things are becoming more global.So if I am using European tools and working on European stuff well as the song say's gonna have to get used to it. peace out, I have some sanding to do, as in a house. ciao

Offline Lou Miller

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007, 09:51 AM »
Anyone that is going to use these tools should take the time to learn the metric system. It doesn't take long at all. Its just one of those things that drives people nuts because its different. I still use Imperial measurments far more than I do metric, but I'm comfortable with either. Start out with a chart like the one Dan just posted, and go from there. Eventually, it will be clear as day to you. If we can learn imperial measurements, we can all surely learn metirc. Metric is much much easier. You can learn the metric system in a fraction of the time it took to learn the imperial system.

Offline Dave Rudy

  • Posts: 771
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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 10:02 AM »
Good morning

          i've been servicing downhill and nordic ski's for 30 years, so i'm well acquauinted with the metric system and i really prefer the system no fractions, and over those thirty years things are becoming more global.So if I am using European tools and working on European stuff well as the song say's gonna have to get used to it. peace out, I have some sanding to do, as in a house. ciao
Anyone that is going to use these tools should take the time to learn the metric system. It doesn't take long at all. Its just one of those things that drives people nuts because its different. I still use Imperial measurments far more than I do metric, but I'm comfortable with either. Start out with a chart like the one Dan just posted, and go from there. Eventually, it will be clear as day to you. If we can learn imperial measurements, we can all surely learn metirc. Metric is much much easier. You can learn the metric system in a fraction of the time it took to learn the imperial system.


I have read and pondered many posts (and avoided getting into the discussion) on several forums expressing extreme opposition to the metric system.  For my part, it is irrational.  I have made the decision to go metric, not just with Festools.  Measuring and calculating in whole numbers is way easier than fractions or -- perish the thought -- decimal conversions.  The resistance seems to me to be irrational.  There is a learning curve (really slight) but the ease of use of metric easily justifies it.


Think of the time and energy we are willing to spend learning how to use tools, jigs, techniques, etc.  Converting to metric is a drop in the bucket by comparison to learning to use a Leigh dovetail jig.

I'm for metric.

Dave

Online VictorL

  • Posts: 576
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 10:09 AM »
Metric system is much more convenient than Imperial. You’ll work with decimal numbers only. Hundredth and tenth of millimeter are not significant in woodworking. You can easily round it to the near whole millimeter.

Regards,
Victor

Offline Dan Clark

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 10:57 AM »
I'm a big fan of metric.  It's obvious, easy to calculate, and the world-wide standard.  To me, it's dead simple.

IMO, most people who hate metric just don't like change.   They are used to imperial and it feels comfortable, so therefore it's "right".   It's like language.  They learned English (or whatever their native language) and therefore that language is the "best".  It called ethnocentricity.   (Several years ago, during a hot debate about teaching "foreign" languages in schools, one woman wrote to the Orlando Sentinel newspaper, "If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me!" ::) )   Unfortunately, we're not going to change these people.   

That said, I think there's another issue here - ubiquity.  Ubiquity means it's everywhere and the defacto standard.   The problem with switching to metric is that we are swimming upstream.   I agree that it's MUCH easier to measure and work with in our own shops, but what about the outside world?   Router bits are typically measured in inches.   2X4's are two inches by four inches (sort of).   Plywood is 3/4" by 4' by 8' feet.   Our plywood sheet might be a smidge over 18mm, but you wander into your local score and ask for 3/4 ply.  Most places which carry 18mm Baltic Birch label it as 3/4".   Or take something as simple as the FastCap FlatBack tape measure (I love mine).  Did you know that the imperial version has marks to the edge of the tape (for accuracy) and metric version does not!

It's fairly easy to learn a "foreign" language if everyone else speaks it.    It's much more difficult when you greet your next door neighbor with a cheery, "Bon Jour!" and he responds with "Huh?".  I'd love to walk in to my local Home Despot and ask, "Parle vous millimeter" and get the response, "Oui".   ;D

Regards,

Dan.

Offline Brent b

  • Posts: 89
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 11:45 AM »
I find two measuring tools very useful for metric/ imperial conversions to avoid consulting a chart or the calculator.  One is a fastcap tape with the metric (millimeter demarcation) and imperial scales on either side.  Other company's make this tape but I think fastcap is a great company and I purchase their tools whenever it's feasible (and they send me a toaster whenever I plug).  The other measuring tool is a small combintion square (from Rockler) that has the same dual scaling.  Working with these two tools have allowed me to become semiautomatic in conversion, which I think is the biggest barrier for most tradesman picking up metric.  Metric rescales  a judgement of space that takes years to develop and become automatic with.  If your trying to feed your kid this can be intimidating.
That said, I find metric superior to anything cabinet sized, and awkward (at least in millimeters which is what I've been training in, I know it's base 10) for anything over.  I think and order sheet goods and millwork in imperial and thus think in those terms for products that sized.  If I went into a lumber supplier and ordered a dozen 3 meter sticks of crown I'd get that 'who the heck are you look'
Also a great way that I've found to use the scale on the TS saw is to take that combination square and square it up against the top side of the guide, past the material being cut, bottoming out on the substrate and add 2mm.  A couple more steps than I'm used to but has kept me cutting through my MFT rails.
Good day,
Brent
i bought in
it's paid off
i'm going home

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 12:26 PM »
Well I have been using the fraction system all my life, so of course the metric is different than what you are raised with. I would not say I hate it, its just a new thing to learn and since I am using the Festools more and more metric will become second nature. Of course its simple to use, 10s are a piece of cake to use but trying to figure out 11/32 into mm is not as simple as it sounds off the top of my head just yet...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline EdL

  • Posts: 106
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 01:13 PM »
I work with both sysyems, back and forth everyday. It really doesn't matter to me what is on the tool.

Ed

Offline Lou Miller

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    • Some of my work
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 02:40 PM »
Guys, trust me, its much easier to convert than some of you think. I've been in construction for over 23 years now. Almost my whole life its been square feet, cubic yards, feet, inches, etc. Those things will probably never change in the US within the construction business. Nor should they, because everything works well the way it is. However, if a knucklehead nail banger like myself can learn the metric system and incorporate it into my daily life, anyone can.

I was installing cabinets 20 years or so ago. They were all European boxes (32mm system). I had no choice but do things in metric on that job. I had 200 kitchens to install in an apartment complex, so I went out and bought a metirc tape. Not one that was both imperial and metric, but just metric only. I put the imperial tape away and just went with it. By around the time I had the fifth or sixth kitchen installed (I was installing 2 a day in the beginning, 3 a day by the end of the job), I had everything down pat. All it takes is a willingness to learn, that's all. Sounds overly simplistic, but that's all there is to it.

Now I gotta get back to work and figure out how many yards of crete are needed on an addition I'm bidding...  ;D

Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 03:36 PM »
I am old and would be very slow to convert to metric if it weren't so rational a system. Mrs Carnes my fourth ("4th" metric) grade teacher would be having me stay after and writing fractions on the board for hours if she could. But, while I am old, she is dead. Like Beethoven when he passed on, she is decomposing.
   Now to the subject. What I hate worse than one system or the other is the terrible mixes we get into all the time.
   Right now, today ("20th" metric) I am reviewing a new dado set. It makes beautiful dado's and that should be the entire review. But NO!  The outside blades are marked on their body as 1/8th.  The chippers are 1/8 and 1/16th - no big deal so far.  The chippers have 1/8" body (at the shaft) but a 1/4" kerf. So the old way of assembling a dado set has been changed slightly. So they give you in the set a great assortment of metal shims clearly marked in fractions - great, right but there table that they have printed to help you assemble the real set shows the shims in metric. Houston, we have a problem.
   So I have just completed making a gage block of each and every combination. It is cut out of thick plastic sign material so that I wont have to deal with metric or imps. Just use the guide to measure the plywood to be used and follow the assembly package of chippers - oh and I have labeled them as "A" and "B" widths. Where does it say that setup aids have to help. I will hang it right next to my first 15 free Handyman screw/drill size selectors (13 in white,4 in black.)
   As to Festool, with the earlier ATF55 having a harder to read plunge depth scale (old eyes), I developed a setting system that avoided numbers. (i.e., put 1/4" ply under rail and to top of workpiece and plunge to worksurface under workpiece and set the plunge stop there. It could be Celsius for all I care. With the new TS55 and TS75, the scales are so very readable, I might have to return to metric.
   As an old girlfriend would be saying about now "enough about me, how do you like my dress?"
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 04:38 PM »
i grew up with the metric,so this is nothing new to me.i just don't understand how can anyone say that they hate it. it is far more easier than using inches,witch doesn't make any sense to me.i keep a conversion chart with me all the time, and i put marks on my saw for the most common size.                         " metric system,so easy, a cave man can do it!" :)
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3394
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2007, 10:39 PM »
I find two measuring tools very useful for metric/ imperial conversions to avoid consulting a chart or the calculator.  One is a fastcap tape with the metric (millimeter demarcation) and imperial scales on either side.  Other company's make this tape but I think fastcap is a great company and I purchase their tools whenever it's feasible (and they send me a toaster whenever I plug).  The other measuring tool is a small combintion square (from Rockler) that has the same dual scaling.  Working with these two tools have allowed me to become semiautomatic in conversion, which I think is the biggest barrier for most tradesman picking up metric.  Metric rescales  a judgement of space that takes years to develop and become automatic with.  If your trying to feed your kid this can be intimidating.
That said, I find metric superior to anything cabinet sized, and awkward (at least in millimeters which is what I've been training in, I know it's base 10) for anything over.  I think and order sheet goods and millwork in imperial and thus think in those terms for products that sized.  If I went into a lumber supplier and ordered a dozen 3 meter sticks of crown I'd get that 'who the heck are you look'
Also a great way that I've found to use the scale on the TS saw is to take that combination square and square it up against the top side of the guide, past the material being cut, bottoming out on the substrate and add 2mm.  A couple more steps than I'm used to but has kept me cutting through my MFT rails.
Good day,
Brent


I agree Fastcap has a lot of good tools and I really appreciate their innovative solutions to common installation problems but I have a problem with their tape measures. I have three or four different Fastcap tape measure with different useful features but the only one worth owning IMO is the storypole tape because I can put the increments whee I need them.

The first problem I found with the Fastcap measures is increment creep. The increments cycle between  being beyond their proper position or short of the mark. But the worst part is the tongue, they are all way off for both inside and outside measurements so the only  Fastcap tape I use at all is the storypole version and I have to remember whether my mark was an inside or outside measurement.

For the past couple weeks I've been using a cheap tape from Home Creepo that costs about $4 and is very accurate in all respects and the increment marks are nice and thin. It is starting to get cranky when retracting so I hope the replacement is as accurate. I think it is Colortools brand (I removed the label) and, you can get it in a black and green color combination. It's only available in imperial increments.

I work in whatever system is better for the project or even a particular operation. I keep a conversion calculator with me where ever I'm working, either an old Radio Shack version or a Construction Master IV which allow you to easilly and clearly work in fractions, decimals, or metric.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3394
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2007, 10:51 PM »
Greeting Fellow Festool Fans

  I show the festools and I get "I hate metric".Maybe just to set it there ways to change.
We all know it  is simple,easer in most all cases. 
 My question is would A custom print out or sticker to go over the scales in fractional be a help to any one?
 I ask because the question was asked of me. 80% of the time I will just eye it up and don't use the scale on A TS55 or depth on a 1400.
  Just though I might get some feedback.
       thank you
        John

I have the ATF 55 and I simply put a piece of white tape on the housing next to the moving depth indicator and I mark on the tape best setting for the common material thickness' as I discover them by trial. While the scale is in metric the increments do not correspond (except roughly) to the actual cutting depth and the correspondence gets farther off as the depth is increased. This a (minor) problem with the TS 55 as well so, if someone where to take on the task of making a stick-on depth guide in fractional increments they should be sure to use actual cutting depths rather than simply convert the increments from metric to Imperial.


Offline Jim Marsh

  • Posts: 29
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2007, 11:55 PM »
I took a white pencil and ran it across the marks on my ATF 55 so they would show up. So far it seems to work fine. My eye's are not what they once were either.

Offline Joe Jensen

  • Posts: 149
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2007, 02:35 AM »
Anyone that is going to use these tools should take the time to learn the metric system. It doesn't take long at all. Its just one of those things that drives people nuts because its different. I still use Imperial measurments far more than I do metric, but I'm comfortable with either. Start out with a chart like the one Dan just posted, and go from there. Eventually, it will be clear as day to you. If we can learn imperial measurements, we can all surely learn metirc. Metric is much much easier. You can learn the metric system in a fraction of the time it took to learn the imperial system.

Metric is great, but nearly everything but plyood is in inches.  All of my blades and bits are imperial.  All of one or the other is what is needed.  I wish we lived in a metric world, but in the US we don't.  For the price, Festool should sell imperial versions where that's the standard measurement.

Sure I can look up on a chart every time I need to convert, WOW, that sounds fun.  Why not offer a second scale that would cost less than a buck with the new $660 Domino?...joe

Offline Joe Jensen

  • Posts: 149
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2007, 02:39 AM »
i grew up with the metric,so this is nothing new to me.i just don't understand how can anyone say that they hate it. it is far more easier than using inches,witch doesn't make any sense to me.i keep a conversion chart with me all the time, and i put marks on my saw for the most common size.                         " metric system,so easy, a cave man can do it!" :)

Yep, way better when using only metric.  Do you have metric drill bits?  How about metric router bits?  Yes you can convert, but not usually to nice round numbers.  I really wish my entire shop and all my tooling were metric, but they aren't.  I'm used to quickly setting the TS and Radial saw fences that are equipped with imperial tapes.  Looking up some conversion factor very time I want to make a cut is a pain in the arse.  If all metric, great, sadly not all metric.

I for one hate having both.  Metric is better but not both at the same time..joe

Offline Joe Jensen

  • Posts: 149
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2007, 02:48 AM »
Good morning

          i've been servicing downhill and nordic ski's for 30 years, so i'm well acquauinted with the metric system and i really prefer the system no fractions, and over those thirty years things are becoming more global.So if I am using European tools and working on European stuff well as the song say's gonna have to get used to it. peace out, I have some sanding to do, as in a house. ciao
Anyone that is going to use these tools should take the time to learn the metric system. It doesn't take long at all. Its just one of those things that drives people nuts because its different. I still use Imperial measurments far more than I do metric, but I'm comfortable with either. Start out with a chart like the one Dan just posted, and go from there. Eventually, it will be clear as day to you. If we can learn imperial measurements, we can all surely learn metirc. Metric is much much easier. You can learn the metric system in a fraction of the time it took to learn the imperial system.


I have read and pondered many posts (and avoided getting into the discussion) on several forums expressing extreme opposition to the metric system.  For my part, it is irrational.  I have made the decision to go metric, not just with Festools.  Measuring and calculating in whole numbers is way easier than fractions or -- perish the thought -- decimal conversions.  The resistance seems to me to be irrational.  There is a learning curve (really slight) but the ease of use of metric easily justifies it.


Think of the time and energy we are willing to spend learning how to use tools, jigs, techniques, etc.  Converting to metric is a drop in the bucket by comparison to learning to use a Leigh dovetail jig.

I'm for metric.

Dave

Learning the metric system is not hard.  Converting completely to it seems from my vantage point to be pretty hard.  I can seem switching the scales on the Biesemeyer TS fence and the Biesemeyer radial saw fence system, but having to work in partial mm to plan around my imperial sized shaper cutter sets for rail and style doors, and every router bit seems like a major hassle.  Also, I have a lot of Porter cable router equipment and Leigh dovetail stuff that is all imperial.  Having to work conversions all the time for that is a hassle.  I wish it were all one or all the other.

What is amazing is that Festool seems to have a healthy market in the US and they are investing pretty heavily in marketing here.  How much would it really cost them to do the US tools in imperial, or offer scales for either.  They already have to do 110v versions that pass UL listing for this market.  These are premium tools at a premium price.  Meet the market's desire...joe

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 08:41 AM »
joe     no i don't have any metric router bits or drill bits,but what is metric have to do with using your table saw?or your radial arm saw? i know it's not that easy to have to use 2 different system,but you just have to deal with it.  when i work on my nissan truck i have to get my metric set,on the other,when i m putting together an american product i reach for the other.   should i call nissan and ask them to convert all the bolts and nuts to imperial? (hey at least they did put an imperial speedometer!!!! )  BTW:nissan is made in the usa. i don't think making a special tool for the usa is that easy to do. think of the domino.if you change the metric scale to imperial than you would have to change the stop gauge,the plunge stop.and the fence.that means that you would have to change the size of the dominos. all of them!  everything that festool designe is based on metric.all of their calibrations is done with metric.  it will cost a lot more than you think to have tool redesigne just for the u.s.a.   maybe a sticker would do the job,but i just put marks for the most common size and it works great!!                                   p.s.  shouldn't a speedometer be in metric anyway?  speed-o-METER!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 09:16 AM »
I actually like the metric system, and have had projects that are almost completely constructed within that system.  Of course, I was in grade school in the mid-1970s when there was a push in this country to convert, and I suppose that memory has always stayed with me!

But seriously, I do like doing things with the metric system.  The problem of course is when you have to introduce non-metric tools into the mix.

Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 10:05 AM »
 Here's my take on this thread, don't think "convert", think "adapt" to the metric system.
Brice
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Keedy

  • Posts: 29
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2007, 10:57 AM »

  I will adapt but not convert. I own Festool vacuum and sander....no need to convert or adapt. Do you really need to convert for Festool routers and domino?
    As a machinist, I convert all fractions to decimal in my head ( 1/2" = .500 etc.)  In my mind it is really easy to convert ALL fractions to decimal and use ALL my machinists measuring increments.
      Gary K.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1836
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2007, 11:39 AM »
Gary is on the mark here. The first step to working in either system easily is to abandon fractions. It is a well known fact that three out of two people have trouble with fractions. :D
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Lou Miller

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2007, 11:51 AM »
For those that struggle with converting metric to imperial and vice versa, why not just get something like this: http://www.amazon.com/NESCO-NM-9560-DIGITAL-CALIPER/dp/B000E227K0/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1583024-7287109?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1177170319&sr=8-1

I have a Starrett version that I really like, but the one above is pretty affordable. With just one push of a button, you can automatically convert mm into inches and back again.

Offline Tom Ryan

  • Posts: 88
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2007, 11:56 AM »
My mother was born in 1908.  When she was in grade school, they taught the metric system to the kids because this country was going to convert "soon."  Are we slow or what?

Offline Corwin

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2007, 02:13 PM »
I'm converting more and more to metric.  And I like it -- metric, not changing over.  But I sure do not want to see Festool have both Imperial and metric scales on their tools.  And optional add-on is fine, but I really prefer not to have both.  I do have a tape measure with both -- don't really like it, but it was all I could get in metric in this one lumber store town -- but it will work okay for now.

Corwin
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Mike Chrest

  • Posts: 386
  • N.W. New York State
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2007, 04:37 PM »
   I don't get it. Festool is willing to change the tooling for all the motors built for the US market(that's expensive retooling) but not the markings on the plastic cases? >:(
   That is bad ergonomics. I should be able to reach for a tool, set the depth almost without thinking(I think in inches) and cut. Every time I have to convert from one system to another it introduces the chance of error. I have to work in Imperial. Architects give their drawings in Imperial units. I build what they draw. I don't want to work in two systems on one job (think Space probe crashes).
   How about a digital depth scale on the routers similar to what Lou posted. Then we could push a button and get a readout in our favorite system. I like fractions :D. How about an optional accessory($$$$$)
   For the plunge saw I hang the blade over the edge and add a smidge. I like the white tape idea but it seems like holding the mirror on a Porsche with duct tape.
  Can you tell this really annoys me? ::)

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2007, 04:43 PM »
yes!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Joe Jensen

  • Posts: 149
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2007, 05:13 PM »
joe     no i don't have any metric router bits or drill bits,but what is metric have to do with using your table saw?or your radial arm saw?
My Saw has a biesemeyer style fence with a tape marked in imperial to set the rip width.  My blades are 1/8" wide and I do use that 1/8" at times for kerfs.  My radial arm saw has a biesemeyer cutoff system with a tape and hairline pointer system.  This too is set in imperial.  I could replace the tapes on both saws with metric tapes, but then they would be wrong for the rest of my shop.  These two are the biggest problem.  Maybe I can find tapes for them with both.

i know it's not that easy to have to use 2 different system,but you just have to deal with it.  when i work on my nissan truck i have to get my metric set,on the other,when i m putting together an american product i reach for the other.   should i call nissan and ask them to convert all the bolts and nuts to imperial? (hey at least they did put an imperial speedometer!!!! )
One system on one truck is better than two systems all the time for every project.  In the early years of globalization, (late 70s, some GM products had both metric and imperial, and some of my tools came with bolts that had metic size threads and imperial heads.  That was really  something.

Again, I love the metric system, hate having to use both at one time.  PS: when you drive south from Tucson on the interstate, all the distances are marked in metric only.  Guess they just want to make it easy for the illegals (I'm sorry, the "undocumented workers") to know how far it is to Tucson...joe

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Per Swenson

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2007, 07:01 PM »
Well if ya want...chuck it all and use the Bob.

No ,really.

http://www.bobsrule.com/index_frame.htm


Truthfully I don't think it matters at all.

Marks, storysticks, gauge blocks.

These are the units I work in.

Any time I must remember a number,that's time I should be thinking

about something else.

Or how about when ya burn a inch on the tape.

Tell me that works out all the time.

My two cents.

Per

Party like its 1929. It's the American way.


There outta be a law banning sesquipedalianism on

internet forums.

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Offline mastercabman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2007, 09:34 PM »
joe   i don't think you need to retro any of your tools so that you can convert to metric.i would keep what you have.i had a hard time when i came here,inches?feets? yards? what the @#$%?   but i learn!    i still (sometime)have to think twice when i have to calculate in imperial  it's hard for people to go metric when all they know is imperial,but i think that it is harder for those who learn the metric first and then work with imperial. maybe i'm wrong,but i can tell you it took me a long time to get use to it.  but for you joe ,just stick with what you know best and when you use your festool,just do the best you can. i know it can be a pain to have to use both system at time.that's why i use a chart all the time,not just for lumber but other thing like accessories,and other stuff.maybe lumber yard could label their products with imperial/metric.so that some of us can get use to what we working with.i mean that, if you see 1x material that say 3/4"/19mm  than we will start to register the conversion.   after all, when i walk in lowes or home depot everything is label with english/spanish. a lots of products out there have english/spanish description. everything is now english/spanish, so how hard could it be to have metric information on the lumber?                                             p.s. does mexico use the metric system?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline clintholeman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2007, 10:24 PM »
Well if ya want...chuck it all and use the Bob.

No ,really.

http://www.bobsrule.com/index_frame.htm


Truthfully I don't think it matters at all.

Marks, storysticks, gauge blocks.

These are the units I work in.

Any time I must remember a number,that's time I should be thinking

about something else.

Or how about when ya burn a inch on the tape.

Tell me that works out all the time.

My two cents.

Per



With story sticks and a few marks and gauge blocks, you don't even need the "Bob".  I figure anytime you measure, you have a huge likelihood of making a mistake.  Though I prefer the metric system, I rarely use my measuring equipment after I determine the length, height, etc. on cabinets and furniture that must fit a specific place/dimension.  Story sticks work great for anything less than 6' for me. 

I hate measuring -imperial or metric - it just makes errors.

Just my opinion ----

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2007, 10:54 PM »
  When considering my first Festool purchase I was concerned about the metric thing. Had no desire , need , or thought of learning the metric system. But after reading up a bit and blowing the dust off of some brain cells not used since the early years, I found a quick solution. A Fastcap millimeter/inch tape along with a good digital caliper - metric/imperial. These two tools are just the ticket to give even the most hardcore anti metric craftsman the skill to mark, measure and cut in minutes. This is a fast way to bridge the gap for those of us that are metrically challenged. Learn as you go kinda thing. Easy as 1 2 3  ;D
Patrick

Offline Joe Jensen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2007, 08:16 PM »
joe   i don't think you need to retro any of your tools so that you can convert to metric.i would keep what you have.i had a hard time when i came here,inches?feets? yards? what the @#$%?   but i learn!    i still (sometime)have to think twice when i have to calculate in imperial  it's hard for people to go metric when all they know is imperial,but i think that it is harder for those who learn the metric first and then work with imperial. maybe i'm wrong,but i can tell you it took me a long time to get use to it.  but for you joe ,just stick with what you know best and when you use your festool,just do the best you can. i know it can be a pain to have to use both system at time.that's why i use a chart all the time,not just for lumber but other thing like accessories,and other stuff.maybe lumber yard could label their products with imperial/metric.so that some of us can get use to what we working with.i mean that, if you see 1x material that say 3/4"/19mm  than we will start to register the conversion.   after all, when i walk in lowes or home depot everything is label with english/spanish. a lots of products out there have english/spanish description. everything is now english/spanish, so how hard could it be to have metric information on the lumber?                                             p.s. does mexico use the metric system?


WOW, I must not be communicating clearly;
1) I love the metric system
2) I think the metric system is easy, and I fully understand it.
3) I think the metric system is superior to the imperial system
4) I think the rest of the world is much smarter to be using the metric system
5) I wish the US used the metric system
6) Unfortunately most of my tools and tooling are imperial
7) Living with both is harder than living with one or the other (I think it would be hard to argue otherwise)
8) Yes, you can use charts, but heck, if I only had to live with one system or the other, I would even need a chart.  Which is harder, no chart, or chart?  Which is faster?

Does this make sense, or will I get even more posts telling my how much easier metric is?  One more time.  Metric is easier, using both on every project is not easier than just using one or just using the other.

To convert to metric, I would need to do the following;
1) Find an adhesive metric tape for the Biesemeyer type fence on my Sawstop saw.
2) Find left hand and right hand adhesive tapes for my Biesemeyer Radial Arm Saw cutoff system which is no longer produced.
3) Find or fabricate a metric scale for my Powermatic Model 100 planer
4) Find some way to fit a metric scale on my Rockwell 6" Stroke drill press.  This will be hard since the imperial scale is etched into the depth stop which is a rod which is treaded with an acme thread.
5) Replace about 5 expensive precision stainless steel rulers with metric versions
6) Stop using all the nice bridge city tools squares with imperial scales.  I don't think they make metric versions.

Router bits would still require conversion tables, and I doubt that measuring 1/8" in metric as (3.175mm) will be hard.  3/8" is easier at 9.525mm, but I don't think I'd get as tight a fit as if I measured to 3/8".

Or, I could use a conversion chart for every single cut I make.  Lets see, I need to rip 21 3/32" wide.  Isn't that conversion table quick?

Now, after all this ranting, I have purchased and enjoy the Festool TS75 and I won a Domino.  I will deal with the metric thing, but it is not as easy or simple for me as if I could stay entirely in one system...joe

Offline ScooterX

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2007, 09:02 PM »
I'm going to make a marked sticker to apply over the plunge scale... but really, couldn't Festool have put BOTH measurement systems on the case?

Offline Frans

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2007, 03:53 AM »
If they had put both scales on their tools, none of you Imperials would ever see the light  :D  And I'm sure nobody at Festool would mind if you bought all of their metric router and drill bits...

I personally never look at the scale on my saw, I just put the saw on the edge of the material and set it to the depth I need. When working with wood there's hardly ever such a thing as a precise measurement. Our 18mm plywood isn't always 18mm, just as your 3/4" ply isn't always 3/4". To be honest, using your imperial system is as much of a chore to me as using metric is to you. Linear measurements aren't too big a problem, but I always dread calculating surfaces or volumes. Chore to the third power indeed.

Perhaps you should all mobilize your grandmothers and send them to your manufacturers to request a complete change to the metric system. Now who could refuse a request from those lovely elderly ladies?





   I should be able to reach for a tool, set the depth almost without thinking(I think in inches) and cut.

I strongly suggest you never ever use a tool like a circular saw without thinking.

Offline Jim Becker

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2007, 09:58 AM »
I likely could convert to woodworking in metric relatively easily given the majority of my machinery is marked in metric...Mini Max and Festool. I've actually been considering it, but will likely try a project or two first before I make up my mind. Conversion wouldn't me monumental outside of replacing some measuring tools and changing the scale on my miter station. It's getting into it mentally that would take some time given I've been doing so-called "Imperial" for 50 years less the first few when I didn't know a measurement from a spoon of carrots.  ;D
“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2007, 11:12 AM »
I use a stick with most cabinet work and layout, and so far the only time metric came into play is when using the Domino and finding the center of the stock...

Miller's Wood Works

Offline Jim Becker

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2007, 08:45 PM »
Ted, I also lay out with story sticks, etc...it sure does help things line up!
“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2007, 12:34 AM »
Jim, My pops taught me about using sticks when I was first helping him on finish jobs when I was young and I thought he was crazy for using a stick instead of his tapes. But now everytime I talk with my pops I always remind him of the screw ups I have had using tapes and he then has to tell me, "use the sticks dummy, they ain't never wrong"...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Mike Chrest

  • Posts: 386
  • N.W. New York State
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2007, 04:28 PM »







   I should be able to reach for a tool, set the depth almost without thinking(I think in inches) and cut.

I strongly suggest you never ever use a tool like a circular saw without thinking.

[/quote]

Thinking is overrated

Offline Frans

  • Posts: 113
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2007, 03:53 AM »
Very true  ;D

But a colleague of mine just cut his thumb on a table saw last weekend. Most of it is still there, luckily. I know I'll be paying more attention to safety in the coming weeks for certain...


Offline lynnsr

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2007, 05:21 PM »
Hey guys, all of these systems are easy if you just think about.  Personally I wish I'd grown up with the metric, however that's not the case.

So for all the rest of us out here just go to chips fly.com and buy a $30 indicator.

At the push of a button you go from inches, to millimeters, to fractions.

It's just that simple;D

Offline Ati2ude

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2011, 11:10 AM »
Ok I am certainly not opposed to the metric system. Thanks for the chart! I am sure this will find a home on my wall in the shop. Now for my question on this, I see on the chart that 1/2 in = 12.70 mm. I made a cut last night that need to be 1/2 in depth and ended up playing with the saw on some scrap pieces until I found my correct depth. Then put the saw on the guide and made the cut only to find out that it was short, duh did not take into account the thickness of the guide. After several more trials found that 1/2 in was 19mm on my saw / guide combination. So if I my math does not fail me that makes the thickness of the guide lets say 6 mm. Am I thinking this through correctly?

Or if anyone else has a better method please share, I just picked up the system and absolutely love it, just trying to find my way with it...

Brian

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2011, 11:24 AM »
Brian,
 [welcome] to the FOG.  I have not measured my rail, but if my memory serves me correctly the general rule of thumb is to add 5 mm for the thickness of the rail.  If I get a chance later I will measure mine.

Peter

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2011, 11:31 AM »
You want to add 5mm for the rail, as Peter stated. You also want the blade to extend below the work piece a bit. If you assume 13mm (rounding up) plus 5mm for the rail, your blade is only protruding 1mm at a depth of 19mm.


Tom
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Offline Ati2ude

  • Posts: 2
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2011, 11:42 AM »
Thanks for the info! I am glad I found this forum. So many little nuggets available! Just so little time.

Thanks again,

Brian

Offline Festoolian

  • Posts: 12
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2011, 12:01 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Offline Alex

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2011, 12:13 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Ati2ude is the person who revived this old thread. leadpipe58 started it 4 years ago. So it'a Ati2ude who deserves the  [welcome]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2011, 12:16 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Actually the OP became a member in March 2007, posted this one time in April 2007, and was last active as a member in June 2007.  He might visit without signing in.

And in case you were not properly welcomed -  [welcome] Festoolian to the FOG!

Peter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2011, 01:09 PM »
Being an ME i use it all the time. it is an easy system, that meant to be easy. this could turn into a which is better arrangement. which it should not...people seem to like to think that it is better and that it reflects well on them, and that the rest of the world uses it so we should too. unless you you need a global standard in your shop,please.

my advice is to pick one and stick to it. converting back and forth will cause problems..you do not need to bring the issues of significant rounding error into your shop.as long as the mm is a small enough unit of measurement for you there is really no issue..if you want smaller units it will be a problem.


Offline Alan m

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2011, 02:06 PM »
 [welcome] [welcome] [welcome] to all three

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2011, 03:00 PM »
Being an ME i use it all the time. it is an easy system, that meant to be easy. this could turn into a which is better arrangement. which it should not...people seem to like to think that it is better and that it reflects well on them, and that the rest of the world uses it so we should too. unless you you need a global standard in your shop,please.

my advice is to pick one and stick to it. converting back and forth will cause problems..you do not need to bring the issues of significant rounding error into your shop.as long as the mm is a small enough unit of measurement for you there is really no issue..if you want smaller units it will be a problem.

Sound wisdom tallgrass.

 A company that I worked for was under pressure to convert it's manufactured products to the global standard (metric).  It also had pressure from U.S. customers to have their custom machines built with imperial dimensions.  The decision was made to continue with imperial and to also build the export machines in metric.  I spent over a quarter million dollars for precision measuring tools alone.  Most all of the machine tools were CNC so they could handle both systems.  A huge early mistake was to "dual dimension" the mfg. drawings -- this caused countless mistakes misreading the drawings and in turn scrapping parts.  We found a number of old school machinists that would sit at their bench converting metric drawings to imperial & writing the dimensions on the drawings - more mistakes!  I could go on & on with problems the company had but I wholly agree with tallgrass -- pick a system and stick with it as much as possible.    The metric system really is very simple however most mistake occur when converting and switching back & forth.   

Offline Mavrik

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2011, 03:08 PM »
I grew up with metric.
I think Imperial is hard !!
TS55, MFT 1080, PS300, EHL 65, Domino, OF 1010, CTL 22, RO 125, BS75

Offline kdzito

  • Posts: 322
Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2011, 04:42 PM »
Slowly I have taken to metric and now am very comfortable in using it.  Festool has forced and now has helped me work and convert to metric.  Now I've started to use measuring tools with metric scales.  I do convert between Imperial and Metric when working; however, it's hard for me to picture a Metric size and this is the only reason why I still use Imperial.

I still use imperial at work; however, on some of the U.S. Federal Construction Projects I've worked on the dimensions were in Metric.
Building one day at a time.

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2011, 04:45 PM »
I grew up with metric.
I think Imperial is hard !!
It's not hard,just retarded! [laughing]
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2011, 05:25 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2011, 06:05 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

They used the Golden Ratio almost religiously, I have begun applying it to the proportions of my projects and haven't yet been disappointed.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2011, 06:06 PM »
How difficult would it be to calculate three equal parts of 1 meter using Imperial measurements?

If I were designing something that was 100" using the Imperial measurement system and I wanted 3 equal parts with standard machining tolerance, I would likely describe them as 33.333" +/- .015".

I don't see mechanical engineering functions as supporting the Imperial system. I see greed as supporting it.


Tom
Tom Bellemare
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Tool Home LLC
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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2011, 06:47 PM »
in a machine shop before the digital revaluation of measurement you would use calipers and gauge blocks and sine bars. in fact i have seen wire frequencies used to measure distances. in the metric system you are stuck with a system of units of ten. in the standard system you can decide what units you wish. 64th ,32nd, what ever, not only that you can stay in the ratio and not convert to decimal and keep it all fractions. also there are more factors of 12 than ten. not only that if you want you can use an engineers rule which is broken into tens . to me it is just a tool. not better or worse, just different.

i actually find them both useful.

but i think you are asking for trouble if you combine the systems. as i said i use both but i do not combine them in a project and i never convert them back and forth.

if using one system makes one feel special and better than someone using another system than than fantastic, may you find great happiness:)

Online VictorL

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2011, 08:35 PM »

Sound wisdom tallgrass.

 A company that I worked for was under pressure to convert it's manufactured products to the global standard (metric).  It also had pressure from U.S. customers to have their custom machines built with imperial dimensions.  The decision was made to continue with imperial and to also build the export machines in metric.  I spent over a quarter million dollars for precision measuring tools alone.  Most all of the machine tools were CNC so they could handle both systems.  A huge early mistake was to "dual dimension" the mfg. drawings -- this caused countless mistakes misreading the drawings and in turn scrapping parts.  We found a number of old school machinists that would sit at their bench converting metric drawings to imperial & writing the dimensions on the drawings - more mistakes!  I could go on & on with problems the company had but I wholly agree with tallgrass -- pick a system and stick with it as much as possible.    The metric system really is very simple however most mistake occur when converting and switching back & forth.   

Hmm. I don't know what kind of equipment you producing, but why you don't build it in metric only, and have imperial dimensions in the documentation only?  
Nobody will puzzled with 'mounting holes distance  29 13/64" ' As I understand you need precise measurement only when installing equipment on site. Modern electronic scales can show distances in any units such as millimeters, foots, fingers, name your own.  



Online VictorL

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2011, 08:41 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

If you divide 1 meter, you'll get 333.33 mm. Why should you divide one meter only?  999 mm is better number for dividing by 3 or 1200mm or 1500mm or 300mm.

Here is sample how to measure everything in anything.


:)

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2011, 09:25 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

If you divide 1 meter, you'll get 333.33 mm. Why should you divide one meter only?  999 mm is better number for dividing by 3 or 1200mm or 1500mm or 300mm.


Couldn't agree more :)
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2011, 09:40 PM »

Sound wisdom tallgrass.

 A company that I worked for was under pressure to convert it's manufactured products to the global standard (metric).  It also had pressure from U.S. customers to have their custom machines built with imperial dimensions.  The decision was made to continue with imperial and to also build the export machines in metric.  I spent over a quarter million dollars for precision measuring tools alone.  Most all of the machine tools were CNC so they could handle both systems.  A huge early mistake was to "dual dimension" the mfg. drawings -- this caused countless mistakes misreading the drawings and in turn scrapping parts.  We found a number of old school machinists that would sit at their bench converting metric drawings to imperial & writing the dimensions on the drawings - more mistakes!  I could go on & on with problems the company had but I wholly agree with tallgrass -- pick a system and stick with it as much as possible.    The metric system really is very simple however most mistake occur when converting and switching back & forth.   

Hmm. I don't know what kind of equipment you producing, but why you don't build it in metric only, and have imperial dimensions in the documentation only?  
Nobody will puzzled with 'mounting holes distance  29 13/64" ' As I understand you need precise measurement only when installing equipment on site. Modern electronic scales can show distances in any units such as millimeters, foots, fingers, name your own.  

If only life were that simple...  [smile]  The machines were extremely complex electro/mechanical/hydraulic systems.  The customer documentation would include manuals of repair parts, etc. but certainly no dimensioned drawings.  Customers typically stock a large inventory of all sorts of repair parts -- as an example (imperial) fasteners, pins, hoses, etc.  Obviously they wouldn't be happy to hear with the purchase of a metric machine (~$2M) they would also have to double the repair parts inventory to support both old and new machines that have a typical life cycle of 15 to 20 years.  
Some companies choose to go the route of "soft" metrification where ~99% of the product stays imperial but documentation, etc. is metric -- as an example a 1.000" diameter shaft is listed as 25.4mm.  Most European companies want no part of that nonsense.  

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2011, 09:55 PM »
Using a CNC machine, it doesn't matter what the dimensions are or what the units are. The incredibly vast majority of metal machining and production style (or big shop) woodworking is done on CNC machines. What matters in metal machining to achieve results within tolerance, is the process. The same is true when machining wood.

If you're designing something that you are going to make using non-CNC machining methods, as the previous posts pointed out, it only makes sense to make it work out to even numbers. There is no inherent advantage to having multiples of 3 or 4 in the equation.

We are taught from 1st grade to think in base ten systems. In my elementary education, I wasn't taught to use fractions until later. I'm good at it but it's more difficult than just using decimal based calc's.


Ron posted while I was writing this so I'll address his post here...

I completely agree with you, Ron. There is a huge legacy machine and spare parts issue. The only way to break the stranglehold of such things is to agree as a nation. We can't agree on anything even if it cripples us to not agree.


Tom


EDIT: I own a nice Pickett slide rule that I bought as a sophomore in High School. It is base ten and was my first "calculator". I used to be REALLY fast and would spend significant time fine tuning it for speed. All of the precision measuring instruments I've used are in decimal equivalents.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 10:20 PM by Tom Bellemare »
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Offline Joe Jensen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2011, 02:22 AM »
I don't hate metric, I actually like it better.  I hate having mixed systems.  Sucks, some tools imperial, some metric. I have like 200 router bits, all imperial.  My Felder Slider has both, the shaper cutters are Italian and metric.  Most sheet goods are now actually metric and not imperial.  Lets just shoot the imperial system and get on with life.  Heck, most everything we buy in the US is now made in Asia, where the baseline is metric.

The worst example of cross systems was a Powermatic tool I bought new in 1990.  Complete crazy fasteners.  Most were metric threads with heads that were intended to be imperial, but they were basically the closest they could get in their metric world.  No wrench really fit.  Swapped them all for true metric heads and life was ok.  I think the Taiwanese factory was confused and Powermatic must have specified imperial bolts. That became imperial heads on metic bolts.

Offline andy5405

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2011, 03:01 PM »
I have always been amazed that the country that put a man on the moon over 40 years ago is still using imperial so much. It just doesn't make sense to a Brit. That said there are some things we will never change. We will always drink beer in pints, anything else would be unthinkable. We still think in miles as well but other than a few things it's a metric world here. Oh and it is obviously silly to drive on anything other than the left!

Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2011, 03:38 PM »
I have always been amazed that the country that put a man on the moon over 40 years ago is still using imperial so much. It just doesn't make sense to a Brit. That said there are some things we will never change. We will always drink beer in pints, anything else would be unthinkable. We still think in miles as well but other than a few things it's a metric world here. Oh and it is obviously silly to drive on anything other than the left!

I've been to the UK several times and usually ask why the roads are driven on the left -- I've gotten about as may different answers as times asked.  It does seem to go back to the around 1300 A.D at the request of the Pope. 
I admire the efficiency of the clockwise roundabouts in England, a much better way to move busy traffic.  I suppose it would be possible for the U.S. to create counter-clockwise roundabouts instead of our silly 4-way stop intersections -- that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

Offline jonny round boy

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2011, 03:45 PM »
that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

You see - you got rid of us, but you obviously regret it and are desperate to hang on to some vestige of your British heritage....

That's why you still use imperial! [poke]
Festoolian since February 2006

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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2011, 04:02 PM »
I have always been amazed that the country that put a man on the moon over 40 years ago is still using imperial so much. It just doesn't make sense to a Brit. That said there are some things we will never change. We will always drink beer in pints, anything else would be unthinkable. We still think in miles as well but other than a few things it's a metric world here. Oh and it is obviously silly to drive on anything other than the left!

I've been to the UK several times and usually ask why the roads are driven on the left -- I've gotten about as may different answers as times asked.  It does seem to go back to the around 1300 A.D at the request of the Pope. 
I admire the efficiency of the clockwise roundabouts in England, a much better way to move busy traffic.  I suppose it would be possible for the U.S. to create counter-clockwise roundabouts instead of our silly 4-way stop intersections -- that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

Funny, in New Jersey, all they've been doing is getting rid of "circles" or round-a-bouts and replacing them with large multi-lane intersections due to the traffic.

Offline Steve R

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2011, 04:05 PM »
that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

You see - you got rid of us, but you obviously regret it and are desperate to hang on to some vestige of your British heritage....

That's why you still use imperial! [poke]

JRB,

Actually we have messed it up even more.....   Go to a conversion site..... and you will see US gallons...and Imperial gallons....  [doh]  When living in Ireland for a year.... I found that out when a guy told me their gas would cost so much US$ a gallone and told him no.... that's imperical.... we have US gallons... and it got ugly from there... could have been the 8 Guinness he had.... [eek]

Cheers,
Steve
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Offline Alan m

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2011, 04:11 PM »
that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

You see - you got rid of us, but you obviously regret it and are desperate to hang on to some vestige of your British heritage....

That's why you still use imperial! [poke]

JRB,

Actually we have messed it up even more.....   Go to a conversion site..... and you will see US gallons...and Imperial gallons....  [doh]  When living in Ireland for a year.... I found that out when a guy told me their gas would cost so much US$ a gallone and told him no.... that's imperical.... we have US gallons... and it got ugly from there... could have been the 8 Guinness he had.... [eek]

Cheers,
Steve
whats all that about. make up yer mind/ if ye want one pick one and not make up an in between.
what is the reason for the difference
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline Steve R

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2011, 04:19 PM »
I have always been amazed that the country that put a man on the moon over 40 years ago is still using imperial so much. It just doesn't make sense to a Brit. That said there are some things we will never change. We will always drink beer in pints, anything else would be unthinkable. We still think in miles as well but other than a few things it's a metric world here. Oh and it is obviously silly to drive on anything other than the left!

I've been to the UK several times and usually ask why the roads are driven on the left -- I've gotten about as may different answers as times asked.  It does seem to go back to the around 1300 A.D at the request of the Pope. 
I admire the efficiency of the clockwise roundabouts in England, a much better way to move busy traffic.  I suppose it would be possible for the U.S. to create counter-clockwise roundabouts instead of our silly 4-way stop intersections -- that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

Funny, in New Jersey, all they've been doing is getting rid of "circles" or round-a-bouts and replacing them with large multi-lane intersections due to the traffic.

It was Napoleon that changed things to having on coming traffic on the left.... Why.... because he was left handed!  Which meant he was more able to defend himself... under the normal have oncoming traffic  on your right he lost. He wanted it changed so he could draw his sword from your his right side and use his strong arm to fight off an attack. Righties lost....

We don't have to go into the whole English and French.... love/hate thing....

Cheers,
Steve
"A Festool is a tool, Marian; much better than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A Festool is still only as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” ~ Ode to Shane (the movie)

Offline Steve R

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2011, 04:33 PM »
that will probably happen in about the same century that we finally get rid of imperial units (thank you very much British Empire!).  [wink]

You see - you got rid of us, but you obviously regret it and are desperate to hang on to some vestige of your British heritage....

That's why you still use imperial! [poke]

JRB,

Actually we have messed it up even more.....   Go to a conversion site..... and you will see US gallons...and Imperial gallons....  [doh]  When living in Ireland for a year.... I found that out when a guy told me their gas would cost so much US$ a gallone and told him no.... that's imperical.... we have US gallons... and it got ugly from there... could have been the 8 Guinness he had.... [eek]

Cheers,
Steve
whats all that about. make up yer mind/ if ye want one pick one and not make up an in between.
what is the reason for the difference

Alen

go to http://www.csgnetwork.com/fuelvolumeconverter.html

and you will see one US Gallon is 0.8327 Imperial gallons or 3.785411784 Liters...

Why?.....  Sorry don't know......

Just like Churchill said two countries separated by a common language. 

Cheers,
Steve
"A Festool is a tool, Marian; much better than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A Festool is still only as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” ~ Ode to Shane (the movie)

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2011, 10:17 PM »
got to the moon with standard....

so who here uses the mm as the smallest unit and if so how do you accurately measure and mark a smaller unit. in your shop,repeatably.

Offline jonny round boy

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2011, 02:16 AM »
got to the moon with standard....

so who here uses the mm as the smallest unit and if so how do you accurately measure and mark a smaller unit. in your shop,repeatably.

Most metric steel rules are marked in 1/2mm increments. Most tapes are just marked in 1mm increments, but it's easy to place your mark to a 1/2mm by simply placing your mark half-way between the 1mm marks. It's also quite easy to 'guesstimate' to 1/4mm, but who really needs that level of accuracy?

TBH, very little I do really needs to be more accurate than a mm. There's no real point trying to mark to 1/2 or 1/4mm when a tape measure might be that far out anyway.

Anything that really needs a high level of accuracy would be marked directly from one piece to another, rather than measured & marked (if you know what I mean).
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Online VictorL

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2011, 11:26 AM »

so who here uses the mm as the smallest unit and if so how do you accurately measure and mark a smaller unit. in your shop,repeatably.

Could you please give example? How do you mark with 1/64 and 1/128 accuracy in your shop?

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2011, 11:47 AM »
I can't think of a reason to do so. Can someone please describe a reason why one would need to define any aspect of a project in smaller increments than 1mm?

I'm not asking for shims, foil, or other such stuff either.


Thanks in advance,

Tom
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2011, 12:01 PM »
I can't think of a reason to do so. Can someone please describe a reason why one would need to define any aspect of a project in smaller increments than 1mm?

I'm not asking for shims, foil, or other such stuff either.


Thanks in advance,

Tom

Furniture for the space shuttle, like some Adirondack chairs for the pilot and co-pilot.

Online VictorL

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2011, 12:27 PM »
I can't think of a reason to do so. Can someone please describe a reason why one would need to define any aspect of a project in smaller increments than 1mm?

I'm not asking for shims, foil, or other such stuff either.


Thanks in advance,

Tom

Furniture for the space shuttle, like some Adirondack chairs for the pilot and co-pilot.

got to the moon with standard....



Space shuttle program is closed. There is no more MANNED non-metric space vehicles.  ISS is only metric  now.

Offline Deansocial

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2011, 01:03 PM »

so who here uses the mm as the smallest unit and if so how do you accurately measure and mark a smaller unit. in your shop,repeatably.

Could you please give example? How do you mark with 1/64 and 1/128 accuracy in your shop?

it makes me laugh when people talk of how accurate they measure and mark on here, Really is laughable. Also festool talk of precision etc yet the guide bush on a of1400 clearly moves 1/2mm or so(no i havent measured i just guessed because i dont really give a rats) Really this is wood we are working with not metal

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2011, 02:19 PM »
I can't think of a reason to do so. Can someone please describe a reason why one would need to define any aspect of a project in smaller increments than 1mm?

I'm not asking for shims, foil, or other such stuff either.


Thanks in advance,

Tom

Furniture for the space shuttle, like some Adirondack chairs for the pilot and co-pilot.


Future Manned Space furniture will likely come from Rent-A-Center, as Victor suggested.


Tom
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Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2011, 06:12 PM »
yes you can easily get finer resolution scales if you like, or you can use caliper to get there.1/2 a mm???i like that should you not be using micro meters at that pint... [embarassed].....i mean it is a better system right????? you should not be defiling it with fractions....do you not get sick if you want a 1/3 of a mm?? [tongue]

Online VictorL

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2011, 07:51 PM »
yes you can easily get finer resolution scales if you like, or you can use caliper to get there.1/2 a mm???i like that should you not be using micro meters at that pint... [embarassed].....i mean it is a better system right????? you should not be defiling it with fractions....do you not get sick if you want a 1/3 of a mm?? [tongue]

I can't get your question. We are talking about woodworking, correct?
What are you trying to build? Table, apron, cabinet, wardrobe? 1:200 scale ship?
Where do you need precision better than 1/32" (1mm is 1/25")

Regular caliper has scale up to 0.1mm, Better caliper has 0.05mm marks.

Metric system don't use fractions, only whole numbers

it would be 0.3 mm, if it still not enough, 0.33 mm, 0.333 mm and so on.  If I need divide 1 meter into 3 equal pieces I'll divide it 333mm 333mm and 334 mm  (assume that I have to drill holes). But If I have to cut it with Festool TS-55 saw I have to pay attention to kerf width. So it will be 1000 - 2*(2.2) or 995.6mm or 996mm divide by 3 I'll get three planks 332mm each. I did it without calculator.  Try to do the same for 40" board.

Please note:
Thickness of human hair Varies from 50 (0.05mm)  to 120  microns (0.12 mm). On average a human hair is usually around 100 microns or 0.1 mm






Offline Alex

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2011, 09:09 PM »
yes you can easily get finer resolution scales if you like, or you can use caliper to get there.1/2 a mm???i like that should you not be using micro meters at that pint... [embarassed].....i mean it is a better system right????? you should not be defiling it with fractions....do you not get sick if you want a 1/3 of a mm?? [tongue]

tallgrass, why is it either the one thing or the other? That's a pretty dumb way of thinking. Fractions are a normal part of our general maths capabilities and we can use them wherever we want and/or need. Stop acting silly. You'd think a mechanical engeneer is somewhat of an educated person but your objections to the metric system are the silliest of all.

Btw, ever heard of the shift key?

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2011, 09:23 PM »
I've had enough of this.  My fractional/metric/decimalized head is spinning.  From now on, on measuring everything in hexadecimal.  I need that board cut to E3BC please!  Chop Chop!

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2011, 10:02 PM »
Quote from: tallgrass on Today at 05:12 PM
yes you can easily get finer resolution scales if you like, or you can use caliper to get there.1/2 a mm???i like that should you not be using micro meters at that pint... Embarassed.....i mean it is a better system right?Huh?? you should not be defiling it with fractions....do you not get sick if you want a 1/3 of a mm?? Tongue Out

tallgrass, why is it either the one thing or the other? That's a pretty dumb way of thinking. Fractions are a normal part of our general maths capabilities and we can use them wherever we want and/or need. Stop acting silly. You'd think a mechanical engeneer is somewhat of an educated person but your objections to the metric system are the silliest of all.

Btw, ever heard of the shift key?


nothing like the high minded thinking of the personal attack.

the whole point of the metric system is to get rid of fractions, of this i am sure you know.

as for the shift key, i am responding to these post on my phone "shift key is a pain" , i would think that a person who can't spell engineer would let the the lack of shift key slide. [embarassed]

If you think that i am arguing this seriously ,you are sadly mistaken. I assume you read my earlier posts in which i said i use both, my only real objection is the combination of the systems,using both is not a smart idea. I think i said pick one.

As for the educated crack, grad school at a place we call CAL TECH and am currently at a place called JPL. I hope you find the use of SHIFT key enjoyable and that it makes all the difference.

I find the ad homonym  stuff just sandbox B.S.

I would rather just talk about the topics and hear what people have to say.....i love the metric - standard debates that crop up every so often. I find them fun and lighthearted debates, unfortunately sometimes people get emotionally bent.

On occasion using both systems i find that i ask for advice on a problem that crops up and i am surprised by the answers. For example i do find the mm a little course. so i have asked how all of you guys handle it. The responses range from you do not need to measure anything finer than that to why would you ever need anything smaller than a mm. I find this confusing considering that i find that most people that are working in wood are actually dealing with much smaller tolerances  mm using their eyes and hands.



Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2011, 10:35 PM »
hexadecimal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes sir.

I would never stop laughing to see a ruler with a,b,c ect ...it would also make me scared....have you decided what the unit size will be ?:)

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2011, 11:15 PM »
hexadecimal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes sir.

I would never stop laughing to see a ruler with a,b,c ect ...it would also make me scared....have you decided what the unit size will be ?:)

In honor of one of our members, how about the "Kreg"?  Then there's minikreg and microkreg and megakreg...too many Kreg's.  Let's just open it up for debate in a new thread.

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Offline Mavrik

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2011, 02:48 AM »
I played with telescopes for a while.
They are in the middle of the mixup.
An eyepiece will be described as having a 1.25" barrel and a 40mm focal length  [big grin]
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Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2011, 03:54 AM »
do you know why that it. i deal with that in the world of cameras.

Offline GaryB

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2011, 05:06 AM »
Nearly everyone in the world uses a metric system everyday, it's called currency.

Metric measurements are no different and no harder, whether it's speed, weight, distance, temperature or volume. Most things in photography are metric, Watts are metric as are many everyday things that most don't seem to even realize are metric. Everyone knows about and recognizes things like super 8, 16mm and 35mm film, any lens you can find and the power rating of tools without even thinking about it. People are already very familiar, and comfortable, with the system unconsciously, it's not that big a jump.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:09 AM by GaryB »

Offline MrMac

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2011, 09:31 AM »
Well I do work in imperial, as that's what I have used from when I was a kid. I am now slowly converting to being able to use metric- where I can. It's a bit disorienting to not be able to eyeball a 1/2", or 8' in metric, but what the heck, it's fun to learn new stuff.

My son was taught metric is school, and he's now on a (7 month) waiting list at the local technical college to go into welding. While he's waiting, he's attending a couple of classes to learn how to use imperial! LOL it's the way of the world, I think that imperial will die out with our generation. In Canada here all the "official" measurements are in metric, speed signs, weights etc. You get used to it, no big deal.

In generations to come they will probably use the length of a light sabre as a standard! or a martians big toe, who cares as long as we get it close and the check clears :)
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Offline waynelang2001

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2011, 01:33 PM »
I don't use metric or imperial, I use english to measure. Like, just a smidge or a little bit more or ohhhh just a hair off...............
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Offline GaryB

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2011, 03:16 PM »
I don't use metric or imperial, I use english to measure. Like, just a smidge or a little bit more or ohhhh just a hair off...............

Hehe, it is the most versatile system in the world  [big grin]

Offline Alan m

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2011, 04:55 PM »
that is the system  my father uses. especially when a neighbour (frank thinks 400 mm is exactly 400 not 399.9 or 400.1) thats ok when its needed but not when stodding a wall. we drive him mad(he usually cuts while we fit) we call out 14 and 1/2 inchs and a touch , or a slack 14, hair over, strong 14 etc. it drives him mad [tongue]
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2011, 05:11 PM »
yea but what colored hair?:)

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2011, 05:17 PM »
That's why carpenters go bald.  They should just stick with the tape measure.

Offline Jesse Cloud

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2011, 05:51 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

If you divide 1 meter, you'll get 333.33 mm. Why should you divide one meter only?  999 mm is better number for dividing by 3 or 1200mm or 1500mm or 300mm.

Here is sample how to measure everything in anything.


:)


Great Video VictorL!!
From now on, all my projects will be in parrots.  Wonder if Lee Valley has a parrot ruler?

Offline adubeau

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2011, 11:13 AM »
I don't like metric measurements but since buying the Domino I am slowly learnig to adapt....  I find wasier to visualize 1/2 inch than 12.5 mm...
Festool weapons: ETS125, RO90, RO125, Dominio 500, Kepex, CT mini, CXS... and the list grows....

Offline pugilato

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #102 on: July 31, 2011, 12:01 PM »
I know and understand the metric system, but I have no feel for it... I'm sure that I wil get it in due time, but for practical reasons (I know and understand it) I prefer inches and feet.  I can visualize them.  I can visualize metric only after making a mental calculation.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #103 on: July 31, 2011, 01:29 PM »
I know and understand the metric system, but I have no feel for it... I'm sure that I wil get it in due time, but for practical reasons (I know and understand it) I prefer inches and feet.  I can visualize them.  I can visualize metric only after making a mental calculation.


Ditto


Seth

Offline Tinker

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #104 on: July 31, 2011, 02:40 PM »
When I was a mason and using all sorts of materials, I used a 100 foot tape for laying out wall lengths.
For coursing of blockwork, I used a stick with a mark every 8"s for the coursing.
With stone work, I used my eye to measure each stone.  you would be surprised how accurate you could become.
For brick coursing, i had a folding rule with markings of 1,2,3,4,5,6, etc up to 12.  I have no idea what the height of each marking meant.  I just layed out so the courses of brick worked out to be even within the height of wall I had to work with.
now i am working with wood, I have rules and tapes the show both metric and imperial.  When i get plans that call for imperial, i can visulize.  If plans call for metric, my vision gets all clouded up.  I measure the space in imperial and then take a metric tape to get an idea of what it looks like in metric.  and then, i get all screwed up mentally and can no longer picture anything.  [huh]

time to go get a cold one. [wink]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2011, 06:56 PM »
The twelve unit foot came from the utility a twelve unit rope. with it you can draw arcs and right angles and triangles.  the size of the unit did not matter..you simply made the unit fit the scale of the work. This is how the cathedrals of Europe were made. with rope and calipers, very impressive.