Author Topic: Folks Hate The Metric System  (Read 32570 times)

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Offline Joe Jensen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2007, 05:13 PM »
joe     no i don't have any metric router bits or drill bits,but what is metric have to do with using your table saw?or your radial arm saw?
My Saw has a biesemeyer style fence with a tape marked in imperial to set the rip width.  My blades are 1/8" wide and I do use that 1/8" at times for kerfs.  My radial arm saw has a biesemeyer cutoff system with a tape and hairline pointer system.  This too is set in imperial.  I could replace the tapes on both saws with metric tapes, but then they would be wrong for the rest of my shop.  These two are the biggest problem.  Maybe I can find tapes for them with both.

i know it's not that easy to have to use 2 different system,but you just have to deal with it.  when i work on my nissan truck i have to get my metric set,on the other,when i m putting together an american product i reach for the other.   should i call nissan and ask them to convert all the bolts and nuts to imperial? (hey at least they did put an imperial speedometer!!!! )
One system on one truck is better than two systems all the time for every project.  In the early years of globalization, (late 70s, some GM products had both metric and imperial, and some of my tools came with bolts that had metic size threads and imperial heads.  That was really  something.

Again, I love the metric system, hate having to use both at one time.  PS: when you drive south from Tucson on the interstate, all the distances are marked in metric only.  Guess they just want to make it easy for the illegals (I'm sorry, the "undocumented workers") to know how far it is to Tucson...joe

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Offline Per Swenson

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2007, 07:01 PM »
Well if ya want...chuck it all and use the Bob.

No ,really.

http://www.bobsrule.com/index_frame.htm


Truthfully I don't think it matters at all.

Marks, storysticks, gauge blocks.

These are the units I work in.

Any time I must remember a number,that's time I should be thinking

about something else.

Or how about when ya burn a inch on the tape.

Tell me that works out all the time.

My two cents.

Per

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Offline mastercabman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2007, 09:34 PM »
joe   i don't think you need to retro any of your tools so that you can convert to metric.i would keep what you have.i had a hard time when i came here,inches?feets? yards? what the @#$%?   but i learn!    i still (sometime)have to think twice when i have to calculate in imperial  it's hard for people to go metric when all they know is imperial,but i think that it is harder for those who learn the metric first and then work with imperial. maybe i'm wrong,but i can tell you it took me a long time to get use to it.  but for you joe ,just stick with what you know best and when you use your festool,just do the best you can. i know it can be a pain to have to use both system at time.that's why i use a chart all the time,not just for lumber but other thing like accessories,and other stuff.maybe lumber yard could label their products with imperial/metric.so that some of us can get use to what we working with.i mean that, if you see 1x material that say 3/4"/19mm  than we will start to register the conversion.   after all, when i walk in lowes or home depot everything is label with english/spanish. a lots of products out there have english/spanish description. everything is now english/spanish, so how hard could it be to have metric information on the lumber?                                             p.s. does mexico use the metric system?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline clintholeman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2007, 10:24 PM »
Well if ya want...chuck it all and use the Bob.

No ,really.

http://www.bobsrule.com/index_frame.htm


Truthfully I don't think it matters at all.

Marks, storysticks, gauge blocks.

These are the units I work in.

Any time I must remember a number,that's time I should be thinking

about something else.

Or how about when ya burn a inch on the tape.

Tell me that works out all the time.

My two cents.

Per



With story sticks and a few marks and gauge blocks, you don't even need the "Bob".  I figure anytime you measure, you have a huge likelihood of making a mistake.  Though I prefer the metric system, I rarely use my measuring equipment after I determine the length, height, etc. on cabinets and furniture that must fit a specific place/dimension.  Story sticks work great for anything less than 6' for me. 

I hate measuring -imperial or metric - it just makes errors.

Just my opinion ----

Offline Overtime

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2007, 10:54 PM »
  When considering my first Festool purchase I was concerned about the metric thing. Had no desire , need , or thought of learning the metric system. But after reading up a bit and blowing the dust off of some brain cells not used since the early years, I found a quick solution. A Fastcap millimeter/inch tape along with a good digital caliper - metric/imperial. These two tools are just the ticket to give even the most hardcore anti metric craftsman the skill to mark, measure and cut in minutes. This is a fast way to bridge the gap for those of us that are metrically challenged. Learn as you go kinda thing. Easy as 1 2 3  ;D
Patrick

Offline Joe Jensen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2007, 08:16 PM »
joe   i don't think you need to retro any of your tools so that you can convert to metric.i would keep what you have.i had a hard time when i came here,inches?feets? yards? what the @#$%?   but i learn!    i still (sometime)have to think twice when i have to calculate in imperial  it's hard for people to go metric when all they know is imperial,but i think that it is harder for those who learn the metric first and then work with imperial. maybe i'm wrong,but i can tell you it took me a long time to get use to it.  but for you joe ,just stick with what you know best and when you use your festool,just do the best you can. i know it can be a pain to have to use both system at time.that's why i use a chart all the time,not just for lumber but other thing like accessories,and other stuff.maybe lumber yard could label their products with imperial/metric.so that some of us can get use to what we working with.i mean that, if you see 1x material that say 3/4"/19mm  than we will start to register the conversion.   after all, when i walk in lowes or home depot everything is label with english/spanish. a lots of products out there have english/spanish description. everything is now english/spanish, so how hard could it be to have metric information on the lumber?                                             p.s. does mexico use the metric system?


WOW, I must not be communicating clearly;
1) I love the metric system
2) I think the metric system is easy, and I fully understand it.
3) I think the metric system is superior to the imperial system
4) I think the rest of the world is much smarter to be using the metric system
5) I wish the US used the metric system
6) Unfortunately most of my tools and tooling are imperial
7) Living with both is harder than living with one or the other (I think it would be hard to argue otherwise)
8) Yes, you can use charts, but heck, if I only had to live with one system or the other, I would even need a chart.  Which is harder, no chart, or chart?  Which is faster?

Does this make sense, or will I get even more posts telling my how much easier metric is?  One more time.  Metric is easier, using both on every project is not easier than just using one or just using the other.

To convert to metric, I would need to do the following;
1) Find an adhesive metric tape for the Biesemeyer type fence on my Sawstop saw.
2) Find left hand and right hand adhesive tapes for my Biesemeyer Radial Arm Saw cutoff system which is no longer produced.
3) Find or fabricate a metric scale for my Powermatic Model 100 planer
4) Find some way to fit a metric scale on my Rockwell 6" Stroke drill press.  This will be hard since the imperial scale is etched into the depth stop which is a rod which is treaded with an acme thread.
5) Replace about 5 expensive precision stainless steel rulers with metric versions
6) Stop using all the nice bridge city tools squares with imperial scales.  I don't think they make metric versions.

Router bits would still require conversion tables, and I doubt that measuring 1/8" in metric as (3.175mm) will be hard.  3/8" is easier at 9.525mm, but I don't think I'd get as tight a fit as if I measured to 3/8".

Or, I could use a conversion chart for every single cut I make.  Lets see, I need to rip 21 3/32" wide.  Isn't that conversion table quick?

Now, after all this ranting, I have purchased and enjoy the Festool TS75 and I won a Domino.  I will deal with the metric thing, but it is not as easy or simple for me as if I could stay entirely in one system...joe

Offline ScooterX

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2007, 09:02 PM »
I'm going to make a marked sticker to apply over the plunge scale... but really, couldn't Festool have put BOTH measurement systems on the case?

Offline Frans

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2007, 03:53 AM »
If they had put both scales on their tools, none of you Imperials would ever see the light  :D  And I'm sure nobody at Festool would mind if you bought all of their metric router and drill bits...

I personally never look at the scale on my saw, I just put the saw on the edge of the material and set it to the depth I need. When working with wood there's hardly ever such a thing as a precise measurement. Our 18mm plywood isn't always 18mm, just as your 3/4" ply isn't always 3/4". To be honest, using your imperial system is as much of a chore to me as using metric is to you. Linear measurements aren't too big a problem, but I always dread calculating surfaces or volumes. Chore to the third power indeed.

Perhaps you should all mobilize your grandmothers and send them to your manufacturers to request a complete change to the metric system. Now who could refuse a request from those lovely elderly ladies?





   I should be able to reach for a tool, set the depth almost without thinking(I think in inches) and cut.

I strongly suggest you never ever use a tool like a circular saw without thinking.

Offline Jim Becker

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2007, 09:58 AM »
I likely could convert to woodworking in metric relatively easily given the majority of my machinery is marked in metric...Mini Max and Festool. I've actually been considering it, but will likely try a project or two first before I make up my mind. Conversion wouldn't me monumental outside of replacing some measuring tools and changing the scale on my miter station. It's getting into it mentally that would take some time given I've been doing so-called "Imperial" for 50 years less the first few when I didn't know a measurement from a spoon of carrots.  ;D
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Offline Ted Miller

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2007, 11:12 AM »
I use a stick with most cabinet work and layout, and so far the only time metric came into play is when using the Domino and finding the center of the stock...

Miller's Wood Works

Offline Jim Becker

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2007, 08:45 PM »
Ted, I also lay out with story sticks, etc...it sure does help things line up!
“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

Offline Ted Miller

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2007, 12:34 AM »
Jim, My pops taught me about using sticks when I was first helping him on finish jobs when I was young and I thought he was crazy for using a stick instead of his tapes. But now everytime I talk with my pops I always remind him of the screw ups I have had using tapes and he then has to tell me, "use the sticks dummy, they ain't never wrong"...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Mike Chrest

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2007, 04:28 PM »







   I should be able to reach for a tool, set the depth almost without thinking(I think in inches) and cut.

I strongly suggest you never ever use a tool like a circular saw without thinking.

[/quote]

Thinking is overrated

Offline Frans

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2007, 03:53 AM »
Very true  ;D

But a colleague of mine just cut his thumb on a table saw last weekend. Most of it is still there, luckily. I know I'll be paying more attention to safety in the coming weeks for certain...


Offline lynnsr

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2007, 05:21 PM »
Hey guys, all of these systems are easy if you just think about.  Personally I wish I'd grown up with the metric, however that's not the case.

So for all the rest of us out here just go to chips fly.com and buy a $30 indicator.

At the push of a button you go from inches, to millimeters, to fractions.

It's just that simple;D

Offline Ati2ude

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2011, 11:10 AM »
Ok I am certainly not opposed to the metric system. Thanks for the chart! I am sure this will find a home on my wall in the shop. Now for my question on this, I see on the chart that 1/2 in = 12.70 mm. I made a cut last night that need to be 1/2 in depth and ended up playing with the saw on some scrap pieces until I found my correct depth. Then put the saw on the guide and made the cut only to find out that it was short, duh did not take into account the thickness of the guide. After several more trials found that 1/2 in was 19mm on my saw / guide combination. So if I my math does not fail me that makes the thickness of the guide lets say 6 mm. Am I thinking this through correctly?

Or if anyone else has a better method please share, I just picked up the system and absolutely love it, just trying to find my way with it...

Brian

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2011, 11:24 AM »
Brian,
 [welcome] to the FOG.  I have not measured my rail, but if my memory serves me correctly the general rule of thumb is to add 5 mm for the thickness of the rail.  If I get a chance later I will measure mine.

Peter

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2011, 11:31 AM »
You want to add 5mm for the rail, as Peter stated. You also want the blade to extend below the work piece a bit. If you assume 13mm (rounding up) plus 5mm for the rail, your blade is only protruding 1mm at a depth of 19mm.


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Offline Ati2ude

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2011, 11:42 AM »
Thanks for the info! I am glad I found this forum. So many little nuggets available! Just so little time.

Thanks again,

Brian

Offline Festoolian

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2011, 12:01 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Offline Alex

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2011, 12:13 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Ati2ude is the person who revived this old thread. leadpipe58 started it 4 years ago. So it'a Ati2ude who deserves the  [welcome]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2011, 12:16 PM »
I would like to know how the OP who started this thread could be a member for 4 years before posting this, his first post.

By the way leadpipe58, welcome   [welcome]

Actually the OP became a member in March 2007, posted this one time in April 2007, and was last active as a member in June 2007.  He might visit without signing in.

And in case you were not properly welcomed -  [welcome] Festoolian to the FOG!

Peter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2011, 01:09 PM »
Being an ME i use it all the time. it is an easy system, that meant to be easy. this could turn into a which is better arrangement. which it should not...people seem to like to think that it is better and that it reflects well on them, and that the rest of the world uses it so we should too. unless you you need a global standard in your shop,please.

my advice is to pick one and stick to it. converting back and forth will cause problems..you do not need to bring the issues of significant rounding error into your shop.as long as the mm is a small enough unit of measurement for you there is really no issue..if you want smaller units it will be a problem.


Offline Alan m

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2011, 02:06 PM »
 [welcome] [welcome] [welcome] to all three

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2011, 03:00 PM »
Being an ME i use it all the time. it is an easy system, that meant to be easy. this could turn into a which is better arrangement. which it should not...people seem to like to think that it is better and that it reflects well on them, and that the rest of the world uses it so we should too. unless you you need a global standard in your shop,please.

my advice is to pick one and stick to it. converting back and forth will cause problems..you do not need to bring the issues of significant rounding error into your shop.as long as the mm is a small enough unit of measurement for you there is really no issue..if you want smaller units it will be a problem.

Sound wisdom tallgrass.

 A company that I worked for was under pressure to convert it's manufactured products to the global standard (metric).  It also had pressure from U.S. customers to have their custom machines built with imperial dimensions.  The decision was made to continue with imperial and to also build the export machines in metric.  I spent over a quarter million dollars for precision measuring tools alone.  Most all of the machine tools were CNC so they could handle both systems.  A huge early mistake was to "dual dimension" the mfg. drawings -- this caused countless mistakes misreading the drawings and in turn scrapping parts.  We found a number of old school machinists that would sit at their bench converting metric drawings to imperial & writing the dimensions on the drawings - more mistakes!  I could go on & on with problems the company had but I wholly agree with tallgrass -- pick a system and stick with it as much as possible.    The metric system really is very simple however most mistake occur when converting and switching back & forth.   

Offline Mavrik

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2011, 03:08 PM »
I grew up with metric.
I think Imperial is hard !!
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Offline kdzito

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2011, 04:42 PM »
Slowly I have taken to metric and now am very comfortable in using it.  Festool has forced and now has helped me work and convert to metric.  Now I've started to use measuring tools with metric scales.  I do convert between Imperial and Metric when working; however, it's hard for me to picture a Metric size and this is the only reason why I still use Imperial.

I still use imperial at work; however, on some of the U.S. Federal Construction Projects I've worked on the dimensions were in Metric.
Building one day at a time.

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2011, 04:45 PM »
I grew up with metric.
I think Imperial is hard !!
It's not hard,just retarded! [laughing]
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2011, 05:25 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

Offline RonWen

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Re: Folks Hate The Metric System
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2011, 06:05 PM »
i do find it frustrating that the metric system being a 10 base system has issues when measuring geometry where ratios are so easy and i can decide when and how much rounding error i am will do deal with. for example if i have an object that happens to be 1 meter and i simply want to turn into three pieces i am screwed simply because of the ten base system .or opposite, i want to make 3 units that add up to one meter. i am glad the Greeks did not have it ...i wonder what their beautiful ratios would look like if it all had to be units of ten limited to what they could resolve?i can not imagine how hard it was before the digital age.

They used the Golden Ratio almost religiously, I have begun applying it to the proportions of my projects and haven't yet been disappointed.