Peter Halle
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Location: Powhatan, Virginia USA Member Since: Jul 2007
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2011, 07:01 PM » |
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As you can see, Festool users, especially those that are members here, are very loyal to the brand. Shame on anyone who would dare think that Festool products are not the best in their respective category. There have been numerous instances when a member has posted that his XYZ brand was better than Festool. Needless to say, they incurred the unbridled wrath of the FOG's membership, me included. I hope you're being tongue in cheek here. One of the things I'm enjoying about this forum is the general even handedness about the pros and cons of Festools and other tools. Just today I saw a comment about another brand of track saw being slightly better than Festool's model. No one jumped down his throat either. Rather, there was some mild agreement. I've also seen recent discussions of competing sanders, routers, and miter saws where Festool wasn't automatically assumed to be the best for all situations. Not to mention outright complaints about some things Festool. For example, Jacobs chucks. Personally, I would not have been offended if Bosch still came out "on top" if tested with the bags. CFM wasn't the only criteria I was going by when I chose the CT 26. Getting distorted conclusions from a review article does offend me. And my general impression of this forum is that I am not alone in this view. Ed, you picked up on one of the many great things about this forum (IMHO); you are allowed to speak your mind; pro or con. All that we ask is that it is done politely. There isn't any editing to kill off dissenting views if they are polite. That being said, in all fairness, this is a forum for Festool users and enthusiasts. As Neil mentioned it has occurred that someone will come here and post something that would not generally be "acceptable" to a group of enthusiasts, and members will post accordingly. Likewise, we do not moderate unless the posts violate the rules of the forum that are clearly posted. Also today there was a post about the lesser priced plunge saw. After checking out that individual to make sure that he / she wasn't affiliated with the manufacturer, that post stayed. If it had been the manufacturer posting here in order to advertise a competing product, then that thread might not be here - and I think everyone would understand the reasons why. Thank you for your post! Peter |
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« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 07:16 PM by Peter Halle »
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The tools in my truck were talking the other day. The Dewalts, PC's, Boschs, Makitas were not happy. They also were in the minority. Their complaint: They felt unused and unappreciated since the Festools moved in. I guess the truth hurts.
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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.
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Alan m
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Location: Ireland Member Since: Aug 2010
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« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2011, 07:10 PM » |
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iv tryed to stay out of this debate but.....
anyway i red the artical and have to agree with all the coments about it being biased and opinionated and almost to the point of having the winner before the testing was done. i think i shall not remew my FWW subscription .
all reviews of tools should be done in real world conditions and with most of the brands represented. why was there no fein, dewalt,etc etc. they should have leveled the playing field with the hoses
they should use the bags, or use the reusable bags.
in this review they are adding apples and oranges but getting bananas. there is no merrit to it at all.
it makes me question the validity of their other reviews
why would you spend 500 on a vac and be too mean to buy the bags.
they should offer a pre seperator as an alternitive to filling the bags up unnessiserally
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now
ts 55+2 1400 rails+ 1 lr32 1400 rail, domino+assortment systainer+ domiplate, ct 22 with boom arm+home made thien baffel, lr32 set, rotex 150, home made MFT,home made work center, 6 t locs for other tools, of2000 , ro 90, mft 800, trion , ls 130
wish list
of 1400, MFT 3,, even more t locs for other tools
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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alik
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Location: P.R, USA Member Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 16
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« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2011, 08:04 PM » |
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The health of a woodworker is more important than a $5.00 dollar bag,also im sure that Festool vacuums are the most beautiful,better enginered and reliable out threre  |
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Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2011, 10:51 PM » |
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Hi, all. I'm one of the authors of the article in question, and the editor of FWW. I think I can shed some light on our reasoning, etc. For starters I can assure you that advertising was not a consideration. We are well-known for our editorial integrity, and in fact lose advertising at times because of it. Our primary mission is to attract readers, and deliver the best magazine and website possible for passionate woodworkers.
I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive. So while the Festool works wonderfully with its bags installed and acting as a prefilter, keeping the HEPA filter unclogged and flowing freely, we made a judgement call that for most woodworkers, the bags would prove to be a nuisance and a constant drain on the wallet and ultimately be discarded. Or they would hesitate to use the vac for general cleanup for fear of running through their bag supply too quickly.
Aside from these tough judgement calls, the other tough thing about head-to-head tool tests is that there are usually only one or two winners, while many of the tools would work just fine for most people. In this case, if you don't mind the expense of the bags, rock on. Festools vacs work wonderfully. But the Bosch that ended up being the winner because it lets you ditch its bags, and yet the filter remains unclogged, due to the vac's built-in filter shaker. That gives you much more capacity and zero bag expense.
Hope this helps explain things.
I've been a long-time customer of Taunton Publishing and I've always held them in high regard, but after reading Asa's post, HOLY CRAP! What BS! "We made a judgement call". How about actually discussing things with other woodworkers, contractors, anyone who uses the products before blindly and stupidly coming up with test criteria to fit the masses AS YOU SEE IT. Stick with sorting screws and nails and leave the product testing to more qualified individuals. |
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Dan Clark
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Location: Bellevue, WA USA Member Since: Jul 2009
Posts: 387
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« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2011, 11:35 PM » |
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Hi, all. I'm one of the authors of the article in question, and the editor of FWW. I think I can shed some light on our reasoning, etc. For starters I can assure you that advertising was not a consideration. We are well-known for our editorial integrity, and in fact lose advertising at times because of it. Our primary mission is to attract readers, and deliver the best magazine and website possible for passionate woodworkers.
I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive. So while the Festool works wonderfully with its bags installed and acting as a prefilter, keeping the HEPA filter unclogged and flowing freely, we made a judgement call that for most woodworkers, the bags would prove to be a nuisance and a constant drain on the wallet and ultimately be discarded. Or they would hesitate to use the vac for general cleanup for fear of running through their bag supply too quickly.
Aside from these tough judgement calls, the other tough thing about head-to-head tool tests is that there are usually only one or two winners, while many of the tools would work just fine for most people. In this case, if you don't mind the expense of the bags, rock on. Festools vacs work wonderfully. But the Bosch that ended up being the winner because it lets you ditch its bags, and yet the filter remains unclogged, due to the vac's built-in filter shaker. That gives you much more capacity and zero bag expense.
Hope this helps explain things.
I've been a long-time customer of Taunton Publishing and I've always held them in high regard, but after reading Asa's post, HOLY CRAP! What BS! "We made a judgement call". How about actually discussing things with other woodworkers, contractors, anyone who uses the products before blindly and stupidly coming up with test criteria to fit the masses AS YOU SEE IT. Stick with sorting screws and nails and leave the product testing to more qualified individuals. Ken, Come on... Let it out. Tell us how you really feel!  Dan. |
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Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2011, 11:46 PM » |
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Dan,
I'm in a happy place right now. I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.
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Dan Clark
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Location: Bellevue, WA USA Member Since: Jul 2009
Posts: 387
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« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2011, 12:29 AM » |
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Dan,
I'm in a happy place right now. I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.
Ken, Me too. Those bags are so expensive... How expensive are they?!? They are so expsnsive that I bought the convenient 20 pack a couple months ago for my CT22. Of course that was just before I realized that I needed another CT and bought the CT26 (which doesn't used the CT22 bags). That's OK. I'll just go cuddle my CT22 bags too.  Dan. |
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bruegf
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Location: Michigan Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 729
Michigan
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2011, 09:01 AM » |
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Throw a dust deputy or thien baffle in front of the vac and the whole bag expense issue goes away. I haven't replaced a bag since I bought my dust deputy.
Fred
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Fred
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JSands
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« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2011, 12:08 PM » |
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While the UDD sitting atop the Festool vac sure does reduce the amount of Festool bags that get filled.... the suction level drops as fine dust particles clog the Festool bag.... its these fine particles the cyclone misses that clog the bags pores that restricts air flow... so I usually replace my Festool bags when they have barely a pint of dust in them, as the suction level drops too low for certain cuts. Much of this ultra fine dust comes from sanding. The UDD does catch 97% of the dust, but that 3% can add up fast and clog the bags skin...seems like a waste tossing out Festool bags that barely have any dust in them, but when I consider I changed-out the UDD bag $.79 each, about 2x on avg., that represents at least 3 - 4 Festool bags in dust volume. So there still is substantial dollar savings if you create a high volume of dust... If you make larger chips for dusts, the festool bag can last even longer...or if you don't need much suction, you will have a lesser desire to replace it. I notice the suction loss on tools like my TS75 when cutting 2 stacked sheets...not all cuts require max. suction.
I also notice it on floor sweeps, as with long hoses, handles, angles, etc. this further reduces suction, specially with the long floor nozzles....
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greg mann
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Location: Michigan Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 1130
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« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2011, 03:33 PM » |
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While the UDD sitting atop the Festool vac sure does reduce the amount of Festool bags that get filled.... the suction level drops as fine dust particles clog the Festool bag.... its these fine particles the cyclone misses that clog the bags pores that restricts air flow... so I usually replace my Festool bags when they have barely a pint of dust in them, as the suction level drops too low for certain cuts. Much of this ultra fine dust comes from sanding. The UDD does catch 97% of the dust, but that 3% can add up fast and clog the bags skin...seems like a waste tossing out Festool bags that barely have any dust in them, but when I consider I changed-out the UDD bag $.79 each, about 2x on avg., that represents at least 3 - 4 Festool bags in dust volume. So there still is substantial dollar savings if you create a high volume of dust... If you make larger chips for dusts, the festool bag can last even longer...or if you don't need much suction, you will have a lesser desire to replace it. I notice the suction loss on tools like my TS75 when cutting 2 stacked sheets...not all cuts require max. suction.
I also notice it on floor sweeps, as with long hoses, handles, angles, etc. this further reduces suction, specially with the long floor nozzles....
Wpuld the new self-cleaning bags help with this siuation? |
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Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan
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JSands
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« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2011, 03:58 PM » |
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Greg, dunno, I guess it would.... not sure how you clean them, or how often you would have to clean them....but it would prob. save the cost of replacing the Festool bags.... my guess is, the fine particles that make it past the cyclone will clog those bags just as fast.... how do you clean them? Water?
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Tom Bellemare
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Location: Austin, Texas - USA Member Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 3568
Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2011, 04:02 PM » |
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The idea with the self cleaning bags is that they inflate when the CT is running and deflate when it shuts off. That knocks the particles that are stuck to the bag off, at least in theory.
Tom
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greg mann
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« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2011, 04:15 PM » |
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The self-cleaning bags are now out for the CT22 so I will get a chance to find out myself. It does seem they should help. IIRC, someone commented positively about their effectiveness while sanding drywall.
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Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan
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Tom Bellemare
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Location: Austin, Texas - USA Member Since: Nov 2007
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Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2011, 04:43 PM » |
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The new bags for the CT 22 and CT 33 are different. They are tougher than the paper bags and are also made of fleece but they are not designed the same. They don't inflate/deflate because they are more rigid.
The self clean bags are seemingly superior when sanding drywall.
Both styles appear to be significantly tougher than the paper bags.
Tom
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Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2011, 05:51 PM » |
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In my experience while using the CT 36 for capturing drywall compound during sanding, turning off the CT, waiting maybe 10 seconds and turning it back on was enough to regain the suction to continue for many more hours. I was able to fill bags completely while retaining what I felt was excellent suction to the end. I've used other vacuums that required I either stopped during the job to take it outside, completely disassemble, empty out the contents and blow out the internal filter/motor housing with compressed air before going back to sanding or just slap the vac silly and try to put up with it to finish out the day.
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SRSemenza
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Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
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« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2011, 12:20 AM » |
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Dan,
I'm in a happy place right now. I'm cuddling with my CT's bags that are too expensive for most owners.
Ken, stop cuddling with your CT bags , and get back to cleaning your hole saws  Seth |
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Seth R. Semenza
S. R. Semenza Woodworking
Festool Service 800-554-8741
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JSands
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« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2011, 06:57 PM » |
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So Tom, how do you clean them?
How do you empty them? Just let dust spew out into trash can?
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Tom Bellemare
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Location: Austin, Texas - USA Member Since: Nov 2007
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Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2011, 09:44 PM » |
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You close them up and throw the whole thing away so the dust doesn't reenter the air.
They are a replacement for the paper bags, just made out of tougher material.
Tom
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KentonIwao
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« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2011, 10:01 PM » |
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From what I've read HEPA filter material is relatively delicate and will become more porous if it is bombarded with high speed particles and abraded during cleaning. So the Festool bags protect the much more expensive HEPA keeping the suction consistent and also the exhaust air 99.97 % free of particle down to .3 microns. It saves money, is more convenient, and protects your lungs from hazardous dust. So obviously most woodworkers would rather not bother with any of that... um , really? The ct 36 bags are $35.00 for a 5 pack($7 a piece) and they hold A LOT of material. It is far too easy to pass judgment on the bags as being a hassle without having actually used the ct vacs from Festool. They are stunning machines.
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JSands
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« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2011, 02:50 AM » |
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Sorry Tom, I thought the new bags were re-usable... thx for clarification.
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2011, 01:22 PM » |
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I seem to recall reading about reusable bags for the CT's. What about them?
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Ed "What the" Heckman
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NoBreyner
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« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2011, 01:26 PM » |
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The long life bag is for the CT 22 and larger. The one for the CT 22 is $192.00, at this price point I'd just get a dust deputy (which I did). The LL bags have a seam that's sealed by a black strip and that strip comes off to empty the bag. Dumping the bag will stir up dust so why not save $100+? Edit: LL bags are NOT recommended for fine dust as stated in the link below. Long Life Bags |
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 01:36 PM by NoBreyner »
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EWTHeckman
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« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2011, 02:08 PM » |
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The long life bag is for the CT 22 and larger. The one for the CT 22 is $192.00, at this price point I'd just get a dust deputy (which I did). The LL bags have a seam that's sealed by a black strip and that strip comes off to empty the bag. Dumping the bag will stir up dust so why not save $100+? Edit: LL bags are NOT recommended for fine dust as stated in the link below. Long Life BagsI'm also using a DD for the same reason. Thanks for pointing out that the LL bags are a bad idea for fine dust. That's good information to know. |
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Ed "What the" Heckman
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Alex
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« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2011, 02:13 PM » |
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Thanks for pointing out that the LL bags are a bad idea for fine dust. That's good information to know.
As someone who had the LL bag for the CT22, I have no idea why they say this. It works great. |
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NoBreyner
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« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2011, 02:48 PM » |
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Thanks for pointing out that the LL bags are a bad idea for fine dust. That's good information to know.
As someone who had the LL bag for the CT22, I have no idea why they say this. It works great. I've only pointed out what they said. That said, in your experience with the bag does the filter have any discoloration from fine dust? |
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Alex
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« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2011, 03:32 PM » |
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I've only pointed out what they said. That said, in your experience with the bag does the filter have any discoloration from fine dust?
None whatsoever. Well, actually it just dawned on my that I do know why Festool makes that recommendation. It is not because the bag somehow can't handle it, it is because they regard emptying the bag with fine dust as a health hazard. That's why they recommend you only use it with big chips like from a planer because your lungs might not like it when you empty the bag filled with fine dust. I just went ahead anyway and used the LL bag for everything I did, never once bought a normal bag. |
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meatman
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« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2011, 03:33 PM » |
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I bought my CT22 in 2007 my dealer at the time, sold me What he called a long life bucket (sorry I don't recall the product number). I used my CT22 every day in my factory with three guys using it mainly for extracting sanding dust. It filled up about 2-3 times a week.  As you can all imagine a very messy job for the apprentice (we all had to do the best jobs when we were the apprentice). He would open the extractor and shove the 4" hose from the main extraction system into the bucket of the CT and extract the dust. He would then take the filters out and extract the fine dust with the 4" hose. As I said earlier this must have been done more than 100 times.  Last year I realised I could buy a long life bag for my CT22 this I did so now no messy cleaning out jobs just empty the long life bag into a closed topped black bin liner let the fine dust settle for a few moments and then remove the long life bag. The long life bag works very well with fine dust from sanders by the way. My CT22 still has it's original filter and still sucks like a bad woman after all that abuse for many years, this just shows how good festool products are. Meatman |
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LR32 set with 2424 rail, parallel guild, T18+3 CXS. PSC400ED. TS55. TS75. Guide rails 3M 2x 1.4s .8m ROTEX RO90. 2x RO150. ETS150/3. DELTEX DX93. 2x sanding pad systainers DF500. DF700. 3 Domino systainer OF1400. OF2000. OF2200. OF2200 extras systainer, 2x router bit systainers, MFT/3. CMS. CMS-TS75. CMS-OF2000. HL850. HL65. CL22. CTL MINI. APS 900 MFS 700 MFS400."The Big Bag"
Every excecery possible, ps, don't show this to my wife !!!
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atomicmike
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« Reply #87 on: November 20, 2011, 05:54 PM » |
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I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive.
Interesting theory on the expense. I go through about 1 box of Festool bags every year, for a grand total of $33. Up until now, I had been spending $34.95 per year on my Fine Woodworking subscription. Since I'm also in the non-renewer club, my Festool bags for next year are effectively free! Thanks Asa! |
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wood pulp
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Each another's audience...
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« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2011, 11:06 PM » |
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AsaChristiana
I knew that leaving out the bags would be controversial, but here's why we did it (it's also explained in the article): They fill quickly, they are not really reusable (hard to empty), and they are relatively expensive. So while the Festool works wonderfully with its bags installed and acting as a prefilter, keeping the HEPA filter unclogged and flowing freely, we made a judgement call that for most woodworkers, the bags would prove to be a nuisance and a constant drain on the wallet and ultimately be discarded. Or they would hesitate to use the vac for general cleanup for fear of running through their bag supply too quickly.
What about the cost of replacing the HEPA filters a lot more often than would be needed if bags were used. You can buy 10 bags for the cost of replacing the HEPA filters 1 time.
Hope this helps explain things.
It sure does. It explains why I am no longer a subscriber to FWW after being one continuously since 1975.
I am shocked it took this long for someone to compare the cost of replacement filters to bags. FWW I purchased my CT22 for many reasons but mostly the fact that they are HEPA and utilize bags as pre-filters. My health is much better off for it (my wife too)! Also, in the new issue of FWW, letters section, there is a remark against the high noise output of the Bosch. |
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