Author Topic: I am done  (Read 21025 times)

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Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4617
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
I am done
« on: September 24, 2017, 02:41 AM »
I have been an advocate for Festools for years. I first had to stop recommending the Kapex, then I had to stop recommending the Jig Saws, both the Carvex and the Triton. Finally I stopped recommending the MFT's and  my rusting loose, creaky OF 1400 and 1010 routers. Sold my RS 2, sold the linear sander, sold my TS 55 Track saw for a huge lack of power..

Now today I go to use my 6 month old RO 150, the dam plug it is fried, I have to hold it with 2 hands  to get it to work. Of course I have back ups, that's not the point. The point is my old RO lasted 8 years and the plug it never failed.

So I grab my ETc 150 to take over in a pinch, for the first time ever the dam sandpaper will NOT stay on the pad, this tool is 6 months old, the pad a brand new 90 day old hard pad. MY old pads last over 4 years!

I am on a deadline, this stuff need be done by Monday morning and now I have no Festool sander to get the job done other than my ETS 150 that is to light for the work.

So I have to pull out my backup Bosch, guess what the DEVS 1250 is just as good as the Rotex, I simply forget it has different feel, but it is every bit as powerful for less than half the cost. well Ill get used to it.

When I buy a tool I give a crap about the warranty if the tool doesn't last at least 3 years I am done with it. Look at my posts, I have been an advocate for over 8 years, longer really as I was on the forum when it was a yahoo group. I will never buy another Festool sander again.

That leaves the OF 2200, my only fear is my long a awaited upgrade I hope coming out in the next couple years I am not sure I can trust.

What the heck has happened to Festool over the last couple years, these tools are not lasting, they are not the same, something is amiss. From owning near every Festool sold in America I am now down to only recommending the OF 2200 router. I am so mad I am literally shaking.

New shop and making a move will not include Festool, how can it. it's a shame I loved this forum and the guys here, but with forum leaning toward not being able to talk about other tools and me not having anything nice to say about Festool  I just dont see me being here, I am not going to cause drama. The QC is out the window, reminds me of the Laguna fiasco of about 5 years ago, something its wrong.

I am done!


« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 02:48 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

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Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 320
Re: I am done
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 07:59 AM »
You may very well be onto something here.  Apart from my couple of cordless drills, which were rubbish, all my older Festo/ols have been great:  Rotex, Deltex, CT22, SR 5E, BS75E, BS105E, HL850E, RS1C, RS4E.

All my post-millennial purchases:  Trion, Duplex (x2), Kapex, RO 90 have been somewhere on the spectrum of disappointing to utter schaisse!  I tend to look elsewhere these days for replacements & updates too.  I simply cannot afford to continue throwing good money after bad.

I'm sure some new Festools are good, but I'm also sure that there's some truly excellent & in some cases significantly superior alternatives out there too.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Online Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2382
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: I am done
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 08:39 AM »
I'm at the other end of the reliability spectrum, but am sorry you have had this experience. All of my Festool products have been bullet proof and they get heavy use abet non-professional.

When I updated my shop a few years ago, I gave away almost all my older power tools which were mostly DeWalt and Porter Cable to a young friend who is just starting out in woodworking. To my knowledge, these old tools are still serving my friend and they served me over at least 15 years.

I think there are a few Festool products, like the Domino, that are totally unique. But, the big box drills make round holes just like my Festool drills.
Birdhunter

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 178
Re: I am done
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 09:18 AM »
I couldn't agree more I run an 8 man cabinet shop and we have had more problems/failures out of Festool's than all other brands combined. From a business standpoint I simply can't afford to invest any more money in any of them. To add insult to injury some of the reason's/excuse that I have received from Festool were just that insult's at best. Maybe Festool should spend more time fixing the core tools instead of making radios and lights. At this point they might as well lower there prices and sell them at the big box stores as there quality is no better than the rest!!!

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 971
Re: I am done
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 09:57 AM »
Interesting discussion. I have followed Dovetails posts for years and respect his views and experiences. I am a light hobby user so have not really stressed my Festool and they have worked well for me. I also own many other brands of portable tools and had no issues with my Bosch, Makita tools but some with a few other brands. It seemed to me that Festool started losing focus when they started relabeling and selling lower cost stuff as Festool. Lights, vacuum head, other accessory items.

I agree that the OF2200 is a most amazing power tool with incredible engineering and it truly epitomizes Festool’s abilities. I will be buried with mine. Just wish that Festool would continue to invest time and money developing tools of that quality.

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 900
Re: I am done
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 10:01 AM »
I'm not seeing such issues. The OF 1010 rusting and loose? not in my experience. The Kapex I see issues but there's just too many that buy it and use it, so I'm not wholly convinced that it's the big lemon it's been made out to be. The carvex 420 does well for what I use it for. The little brother to the RS 2 the RS EQ 300 is one solid sander. The RO 90 no complaints. The TS 75 cuts through the hardest beech wood without a hiccup. Maybe Festools are not as indestructable as some other brands, but for me the egronomics and the dust collection, the systainers and organisation are very attractive. MFT is a great aid for my portable mostly outdoor jobs.

Good luck with your other brands of choice.
RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline waho6o9

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Re: I am done
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 10:15 AM »
Interesting and valid points Dovetail, may you have good fortune going forward.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: I am done
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 10:40 AM »


New shop and making a move will not include Festool, how can it. it's a shame I loved this forum and the guys here, but with forum leaning toward not being able to talk about other tools and me not having anything nice to say about Festool  I just dont see me being here, I am not going to cause drama. The QC is out the window, reminds me of the Laguna fiasco of about 5 years ago, something its wrong.

I am done!


     We are trying and are planning to be trying a little harder to rejuvenate FOG. But times and things do change and forums like everything else evolve. We would very much like it to move up the scale rather than down.  As far as not being able to talk about other tool brands goes? Not sure where that is coming from other that the recent / current Mafell topic where it was suggested that more and better info could be found on the Mafell forum rather than on the Festool forum. I have always  felt that being able to talk about other tool brands on FOG was a hallmark considering that the FOG is owned and operated by Festool.

    @Dovetail65     I do think that this is a rather dramatic post considering that you don't want to cause drama.  But I can certainly understand your extreme frustration and blowing off a little steam.

     Good luck with your new shop move. Would be great to see a shop tour or the like posted here.

Seth

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2017, 11:04 AM »
But guys..."it's part of a system".   and 'dust collection is phenomenal'   [eek]

Except, IT"S NOT anymore.   

Increasingly the tools are not part of the system and the dust collection is a pain to use for the cordless lineup because it can't turn on remotely - and- the new idea - the locking connector is a downgrade in performance.  Rick's Maxsys notwithstanding.   But that's not part of the native "system" from festool, nor does it work on half of the vacuums.  One of the biggest markets ( N. America) doesn't even have access to the entire lineup of tools and accessories.  Not stocked is one thing, but no special order is a bit ridiculous.

Been told  " we don't have capacity for keeping track of or storing all our SKU's"    Really? But you have room for 22 different sanders , plus two entirely different types of abrasive lines to fit all the different sanders plus the pads to accompany ?   How much space do all those sku's take on the server or in the warehouse ? And let's not forget there's new battery sku's for the cordless sanders.  Then you miraculously found some floor space to set up a production line for rails.  It'd would seem it's not a "space" problem.

This reminds me of many expanding or maturing businesses.  They are focused on growth to satisfy shareholders desire. That's hard to do long term with your core tools (that made your reputation) because you've already sold your natural demographic, and they last a long time.  Plus, competition catches up.  We have track saws a plenty now, most routers have dust collection, and pretty much all drill drivers perform better. 

Incremental upgrades will help the bottom line ( plug -it, new guide rail, better/bigger batteries) and developing great new products helps. But it's hard to consistently hit home runs with the likes of Domino.  Re-constituted vacuum clamps and multi-tools, lites that don't work with industry standard mounts or all the other tools' batteries help keep the system closed and force one to use FT accessories.  But the only real way is through acquisition.

 


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2017, 12:35 PM »
Rick's Maxsys notwithstanding.   But that's not part of the native "system" from festool, nor does it work on half of the vacuums. 

Interestingly enough, when Rick inquired if Festool was interested in pursuing the idea...Festool turned him down.  [eek]

Had Festool been a bit more clairvoyant with their "what needs to be in the future tool" thought process, they could have marketed this item along with new circuit boards for the MINI & MIDI, and charged a bazillion $ for the option and boards. That failure to envision says a lot. [sad]

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2017, 12:51 PM »
This thread reminded me - > whatever happened to eRock?  (he made some really good videos)

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1560
Re: I am done
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2017, 01:14 PM »
This thread reminded me - > whatever happened to eRock?  (he made some really good videos)
There is a bunch of Bosch L-boxes in his last videos.

Offline Slider613

  • Posts: 38
Re: I am done
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2017, 01:43 PM »
Sorry to hear your frustrations. I've had pretty decent luck with all my Festool intems, barring the Carvex, which is not bad, just not any better than a $150 Jigsaw.

Please see my signature for my Festool items.
TS 75 EQ, Router 1400 OF, Carvex PS420 EQB, Rotex 90 and 125, ETS 150/3, Domino DF 500 + Kit, CXS Drill set, T18 Drill Set, MFT/3, Rails 75" and 2x 55" with Connector and Case, Compact Cleaning Kit, Sys 4 TLsort/3, CT 48 with 27mm and 36mm anti static hose, Sys MFT-FX set.

Plus a whole stack of accessories

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: I am done
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2017, 02:26 PM »
I'm not seeing such issues. The OF 1010 rusting and loose? not in my experience. The Kapex I see issues but there's just too many that buy it and use it, so I'm not wholly convinced that it's the big lemon it's been made out to be. The carvex 420 does well for what I use it for. The little brother to the RS 2 the RS EQ 300 is one solid sander. The RO 90 no complaints. The TS 75 cuts through the hardest beech wood without a hiccup. Maybe Festools are not as indestructable as some other brands, but for me the egronomics and the dust collection, the systainers and organisation are very attractive. MFT is a great aid for my portable mostly outdoor jobs.

Good luck with your other brands of choice.

The rusting of the routers is a know issue,  I did not mention the TS 75. I did own one and sold it only becasue it was too large for me, but yes as far as I know the TS 75 is still rock solid, the TS 55 of course it lacks power everyone knows that.

If you search this forum on the tools I listed  all these issues are known. The RS2 I sold only becasue I think the Bosch performs much better, at a lesser cost, really it eats the RS2 for breakfast. I wil agree the RS2 itself was nice so I will say I did not sell that becasue of an  issue with it per se, just that I preferred another brand in that category. The rest of what I said stands.

I am really frustrated. I am lucky enough to have back up tools and year ago I bought 3 of every plug it for all the Festools just for these cases, but I feel for the guys that dont have the funds like me to have back up of backups and parts in stock for repair. The biggest aggravation is I had two hard pads for that ETC and the first one did the same thing and I wrote it off as a bad unit, so I already had used my backup never dreaming another would not last 90 days. I read about this on the forum and thought heck my pads last years, nope the pads are not lasting. The pad appears brand new it just wont hold the paper, the pad on the RO 150 holds the paper like glue, it has to be a bad batch of hard pads
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 02:30 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 900
Re: I am done
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2017, 02:56 PM »
I'm not seeing such issues. The OF 1010 rusting and loose? not in my experience. The Kapex I see issues but there's just too many that buy it and use it, so I'm not wholly convinced that it's the big lemon it's been made out to be. The carvex 420 does well for what I use it for. The little brother to the RS 2 the RS EQ 300 is one solid sander. The RO 90 no complaints. The TS 75 cuts through the hardest beech wood without a hiccup. Maybe Festools are not as indestructable as some other brands, but for me the egronomics and the dust collection, the systainers and organisation are very attractive. MFT is a great aid for my portable mostly outdoor jobs.

Good luck with your other brands of choice.

The rusting of the routers is a know issue,  I did not mention the TS 75. I did own one and sold it only becasue it was too large for me, but yes as far as I know the TS 75 is still rock solid, the TS 55 of course it lacks power everyone knows that.

If you search this forum on the tools I listed  all these issues are known. The RS2 I sold only becasue I think the Bosch performs much better, at a lesser cost, really it eats the RS2 for breakfast. I wil agree the RS2 itself was nice so I will say I did not sell that becasue of an  issue with it per se, just that I preferred another brand in that category. The rest of what I said stands.

I am really frustrated. I am lucky enough to have back up tools and year ago I bought 3 of every plug it for all the Festools just for these cases, but I feel for the guys that dont have the funds like me to have back up of backups and parts in stock for repair. The biggest aggravation is I had two hard pads for that ETC and the first one did the same thing and I wrote it off as a bad unit, so I already had used my backup never dreaming another would not last 90 days. I read about this on the forum and thought heck my pads last years, nope the pads are not lasting. The pad appears brand new it just wont hold the paper, the pad on the RO 150 holds the paper like glue, it has to be a bad batch of hard pads

That frustration is something I understand. That's interesting about the RS2 versus the Bosch. I had considered at half sheet dimensioned sander, and thought the Metabo looked good but will Check the Bosch out. The hard pad on the metabo 80mm Eccentric sander i have  had the same issue and yes it's crazy having a tool you can't use because of the one small detail.
As to rusting routers, I store my tools at room temperature normal humidity so in other less optimal conditions I could see rust becoming an issue.

All the best to you and getting things optimised for your work
RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 03:00 PM »
Quote
Had Festool been a bit more clairvoyant with their "what needs to be in the future tool" thought process, they could have marketed this item along with new circuit boards for the MINI & MIDI, and charged a bazillion $ for the option and boards. That failure to envision says a lot. [sad]

Are you sure they didn't envision this and simply said " -W$(O%R^P)_ it" ?  Their cordless offerings were in the spitballing and design phases when Maxsys was conceived.  But, I guess it's just been decided that we NEED more sanders.   Even if we ourselves don't recognize it or want them.

Speaking to DT's quality comment - perhaps quality has in fact lessened. On purpose.  If my widget lasts for ever , I'm not likely to replace it.  That means no more revenue for ACME  when they can't convince me to buy an overpriced incompatible light, or wholesale replace my sandpaper inventory.

I'm in agreement, quality has gone downhill.  It's not to floodgate proportions like we've seen with Dewalt and PorterCable. 

Yet.


PWood - you don't see kapex issues because yours are 220volt models. 

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2514
Re: I am done
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 03:43 PM »
Frustrating when tools do not perform. My take - there are issues with most tool companies. It is just what it is - nothing is perfect. I had my Mafell jigsaw fail and had to get it replaced. I have had issues with a few Festool tools and I have had issues with Felder and Laguna in the past. It happens. I do not worry too much about issues as they are to be expected.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 790
Re: I am done
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 03:51 PM »
Aren't many of the tools made in the Czech Republic now?  When did that switch occur?

All toolmakers try to cut costs by moving manufacturing to cheaper countries...I wonder if that has really hurt Festool's quality?  Hard to know without hard data, but the anecdotal evidence suggests that may be the case.
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 178
Re: I am done
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 03:52 PM »
I'm in the same boat with sanding pads they simply don't last. We started writing the date on them and we average about 45 -60 days before the paper is flying. We have 6 ets sanders in the shop so that's about $300 every six weeks for new pads totally unacceptable and at the same time our pads on other sanders (Dynabrade & Surfprep) seem to last forever at a fraction of the cost. What really ticked me off what that Festool said it was my fault I was using the sander wrong I've been a professional woodworker for the past 30 years I think I know sand.

Offline ddr90036

  • Posts: 21
Re: I am done
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 03:57 PM »
As a newer Festool user without much prior experience I can understand what you're saying, but haven't had any of your experiences (that's not saying much).  In my opinion what is severely lacking, and the one thing that Festool needs to improve market share is accessibility to the system - meaning don't make people travel to only 3 locations to really learn how these things are used.  Don't get my wrong, my Festool instructor was phenomenal and continues to be a resource but I think that startup costs are already high they really need to improve on their online training access.

 
I have been an advocate for Festools for years. I first had to stop recommending the Kapex, then I had to stop recommending the Jig Saws, both the Carvex and the Triton. Finally I stopped recommending the MFT's and  my rusting loose, creaky OF 1400 and 1010 routers. Sold my RS 2, sold the linear sander, sold my TS 55 Track saw for a huge lack of power..

Now today I go to use my 6 month old RO 150, the dam plug it is fried, I have to hold it with 2 hands  to get it to work. Of course I have back ups, that's not the point. The point is my old RO lasted 8 years and the plug it never failed.

So I grab my ETc 150 to take over in a pinch, for the first time ever the dam sandpaper will NOT stay on the pad, this tool is 6 months old, the pad a brand new 90 day old hard pad. MY old pads last over 4 years!

I am on a deadline, this stuff need be done by Monday morning and now I have no Festool sander to get the job done other than my ETS 150 that is to light for the work.

So I have to pull out my backup Bosch, guess what the DEVS 1250 is just as good as the Rotex, I simply forget it has different feel, but it is every bit as powerful for less than half the cost. well Ill get used to it.

When I buy a tool I give a crap about the warranty if the tool doesn't last at least 3 years I am done with it. Look at my posts, I have been an advocate for over 8 years, longer really as I was on the forum when it was a yahoo group. I will never buy another Festool sander again.

That leaves the OF 2200, my only fear is my long a awaited upgrade I hope coming out in the next couple years I am not sure I can trust.

What the heck has happened to Festool over the last couple years, these tools are not lasting, they are not the same, something is amiss. From owning near every Festool sold in America I am now down to only recommending the OF 2200 router. I am so mad I am literally shaking.

New shop and making a move will not include Festool, how can it. it's a shame I loved this forum and the guys here, but with forum leaning toward not being able to talk about other tools and me not having anything nice to say about Festool  I just dont see me being here, I am not going to cause drama. The QC is out the window, reminds me of the Laguna fiasco of about 5 years ago, something its wrong.

I am done!

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 432
Re: I am done
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2017, 04:02 PM »
How I see it....  festool is following in the great footsteps of Hitachi. Hitachi used to make truly wonderful tools from the best nail guns, good basic routers, the best lunch box planer, and of course that little slider, built whole houses with it. Than Hitachi decided they could make more money selling to homeowners in the USA and became Lowes Brand. Hitachi may be on a bit of a comeback(maybe dewalt too). Festool has decided the best way to make money in the USA is to market to the sophisticated retired diy crowd who have money. They use this site and its resident experts to sell to this profitable crowd. Maybe it will backfire and festool will return to its higher quality days.  It's just my 2 cents.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Quote
What really ticked me off what that Festool said it was my fault I was using the sander wrong

Yup, that is straight out of the playbook for any German company I've ever worked for or currently deal with.  Having the pads wear out would fit into the grand conspiracy of having tools wear out faster so you'll by more or them and or maybe get so frustrated that you try the new product (mesh abrasives) and their new pads.  Same as the new vac connector.  But at least they give us the first hit for no money up front.

Glass - you can be pretty sure that Hitachi's quality will soon slide down. And by extension Metabo's because of the KKR acquisition. They have no earthly idea about tool customers' wants and needs.  But, they are masters at squeezing equity and profit out of businesses. That's not really practical while trying to make the very best widget and paying off the debt for the acquisition.

Probably time to search for the "next" small to medium , quality power tool maker if you're not comfortable or satisfied with the current evolution.   I can pretty much guarantee Festool isn't going back to the good ol days.

Who knows, maybe we"ll even see them in the BORGs before the end of the decade.  [unsure]


Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2017, 06:31 PM »
I will never forget the time that Festool denied a warranty repair because a guy was using a non Festool blade in his Festool jigsaw and hit a hidden screw while he was making a cut.  Trashed the jigsaw - cost more to repair than what it was worth

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: I am done
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2017, 07:05 PM »
I will never forget the time that Festool denied a warranty repair because a guy was using a non Festool blade in his Festool jigsaw and hit a hidden screw while he was making a cut.  Trashed the jigsaw - cost more to repair than what it was worth

I remember that too. Festool blade or not I am not so sure that running into a screw (most are hardened) with a wood cutting blade is Festool's build fault.

Seth

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: I am done
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2017, 07:27 PM »
Aren't many of the tools made in the Czech Republic now?  When did that switch occur?

Many tools have been made by Festool under the ProTool label in Poland and the Czech Republic since forever. Around three years ago the ProTool range became Festool branded. Examples include the Rail Chain Saw, the DSC Cutting System, QuadDrills and the PDC drill.
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: I am done
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2017, 07:35 PM »
I will never forget the time that Festool denied a warranty repair because a guy was using a non Festool blade in his Festool jigsaw and hit a hidden screw while he was making a cut.  Trashed the jigsaw - cost more to repair than what it was worth

I'm pretty sure it was stated that the non-Festool blade was not the reason that the warranty repair was denied.
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Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2017, 07:48 PM »
I will never forget the time that Festool denied a warranty repair because a guy was using a non Festool blade in his Festool jigsaw and hit a hidden screw while he was making a cut.  Trashed the jigsaw - cost more to repair than what it was worth

I'm pretty sure it was stated that the non-Festool blade was not the reason that the warranty repair was denied.

I am pretty sure that you are wrong - although it is hard to believe that a 'Premium' tool manufacturer would deny a warranty claim under those circumstances, isn't it?


« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 07:55 PM by J0hn »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2017, 08:09 PM »
...  In my opinion what is severely lacking, and the one thing that Festool needs to improve market share is accessibility to the system - meaning don't make people travel to only 3 locations to really learn how these things are used.  Don't get my wrong, my Festool instructor was phenomenal and continues to be a resource but I think that startup costs are already high they really need to improve on their online training access.
...

Increasing the market share is a problem if one wants to increase sales, however the topic of this thread is the dismal quality, and not in helping the company sell increasing numbers of second rate tools.

Festool is marketed as Uber tools, which make be true in some cases like the Kapex.
But the perception is that the quality is in free fall.

I suppose driving less distance to get fleeced is better for the environment. So there is an upside.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 08:11 PM »
I'm not seeing such issues. The OF 1010 rusting and loose? not in my experience. The Kapex I see issues but there's just too many that buy it and use it, so I'm not wholly convinced that it's the big lemon it's been made out to be. The carvex 420 does well for what I use it for. The little brother to the RS 2 the RS EQ 300 is one solid sander. The RO 90 no complaints. The TS 75 cuts through the hardest beech wood without a hiccup. Maybe Festools are not as indestructable as some other brands, but for me the egronomics and the dust collection, the systainers and organisation are very attractive. MFT is a great aid for my portable mostly outdoor jobs.

Good luck with your other brands of choice.

There are differences in voltage betten North America and Scandinavia ... The rest of the world

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: I am done
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2017, 08:17 PM »


I suppose driving less distance to get fleeced is better for the environment. So there is an upside.

Fleeced? Fleeced in what way?

  You mean   choosing   to attend a training class that you have to pay for? And in all probability is a good price for a training class?  No one is suckering anyone to make that choice. The free option is to go online for information and how to. Places like ummm,  FOG. Provided for all to read and ask questions  by Festool at no charge.

Seth
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 11:31 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2017, 09:20 PM »
Quote
But the perception is that the quality is in free fall.

I'm not sure that's quite accurate. 

Isn't it more like the quality is slipping at this point?  That's a far cry from abandon ship.

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Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4617
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: I am done
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2017, 09:38 PM »


New shop and making a move will not include Festool, how can it. it's a shame I loved this forum and the guys here, but with forum leaning toward not being able to talk about other tools and me not having anything nice to say about Festool  I just dont see me being here, I am not going to cause drama. The QC is out the window, reminds me of the Laguna fiasco of about 5 years ago, something its wrong.

I am done!


     We are trying and are planning to be trying a little harder to rejuvenate FOG. But times and things do change and forums like everything else evolve. We would very much like it to move up the scale rather than down.  As far as not being able to talk about other tool brands goes? Not sure where that is coming from other that the recent / current Mafell topic where it was suggested that more and better info could be found on the Mafell forum rather than on the Festool forum. I have always  felt that being able to talk about other tool brands on FOG was a hallmark considering that the FOG is owned and operated by Festool.

    @Dovetail65     I do think that this is a rather dramatic post considering that you don't want to cause drama.  But I can certainly understand your extreme frustration and blowing off a little steam.

     Good luck with your new shop move. Would be great to see a shop tour or the like posted here.

Seth

Wait a second, I said my piece, one post and a follow up or two. Was I to say nothing at all? So it's drama to post  my one experience?

Your statement:

"I do think that this is a rather dramatic post considering that you don't want to cause drama."

The drama I am referring to is if I became vindictive telling everyone who will listen that there are issues with these sanders, posting  25-100 posts here on out dissing the tool. Some here have literally posted 100 times dissing the Kapex and the motor at every turn making that topic into a fiasco over several months. That is the drama I am not going to get in to. I actually believe you knew that already. Had you not made the above statement I would not even be back in this thread.

Near 5000 posts advocating Festool with ONE THREAD EVER STARTED STARTING TOOL DISSATISFACTION IN 8 YEARS. The only thing from a Festool perspective I have ever done negative is simply state a facts and comparisons that some some Fetools might not be the right choice, today was the first time I ever actually dissed a tool in a thread topic and it was after giving the benefit of the doubt over a period of months.


If I am not a guy Festool would want on the forum I have no idea who would be. I think to myself am I crazy, I don't get paid, what am I doing advocating for a tool company, I must be nuts. I guess the kool aid wore off or something because reading your one sentence for some weird reason hurt me for a second.. And that's weird to me.


The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2017, 09:55 PM »
Quote
But the perception is that the quality is in free fall.

I'm not sure that's quite accurate. 

Isn't it more like the quality is slipping at this point?  That's a far cry from abandon ship.

Maybe you're right... I am thinking the Kapex motor issues, Carvex woes, various issues with plugIt connectors, the ProV promotion having lots of returns, and the posts about how the repair department cannot be reached without invocation of a Festool employee.

Maybe it is not "The perception", but it is what I am reading from the various rants and complaints. Granted that is likely from a small set of people, but it is enough to cause my eyebrow to raise.

Festool advertises that they have some of the highest quality tools. The onus to live up to that expectation, or protect that expectation, needs Q&A/QC to back up the marketing... Or the general perception may readjust itself.

Offline brentseay

  • Posts: 1
Re: I am done
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2017, 10:58 PM »
Hey guys/gals, first post. I've been dreaming of these tools and couldn't justify the cost. Hilton and Amazon worked out a deal to use your hhonors to shop and made my dreams come true. Used my stash of hhonors points to purchase the domino 500, systainer full of dominos and cutters, ct26 dust collector, and the ets ec 125 brushless sander.

I joined FOG today finally as a real festool owner and the first post I read is this one from a well respected FOG member and I'm thinking I should have taken a 3 week vacation with these points instead.

Am I good to go?

From my perspective, I'm really enjoying the domino. It is the only way I have currently to join a 45 degree mitered table apron to a 90 degree square table leg. The perfect joint in my mind would be to make the end of the mitered apron a dovetail and cut a dovetail slot into the square table leg on a 45 degree angle. However, I don't have a tilting router table. I did my first mitered apron to square table leg today with three 4x20 dominos and it's perfect. I feel like I could make some quality furniture finally.

Looking forward to seeing what else I can make.


Brent

Offline James Biddle

  • Posts: 146
Re: I am done
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2017, 11:01 PM »
I fully understand the OP's position.  He, like I, have been big Festool supporters over the last number of years.  I own 10 power tools, 4 cordless, 2 vacs, and I've considered myself a big Festool fan.  But, the relationship seems to be more one sided these days.

I sold my Kapex far cheaper than the 'Festool keeps its prices' mantra.

I sold my MFS because not only did I not use it, but Festool stopped selling it.

I sold my first two track saws because I not use them, and that's a lot of cash sitting in the too crib.

I have two vacs that have been absolute beasts, but why did they cheap out on the quality of the MIDI hose?

I can't argue with the quality of my OF1400 router...love it.

My Domino has more than paid for itself, but I wish the QC extended to sending the tool with everything aligned...I cur one slot small and the matching one large and ignore the alignment issue.

Sanders, where do I start?

My original Festool purchase was a lightly used ETS 150/3. I,be had to send it in once for repair, but it's also been a tool beast.  I bought the EC 150 replacement and although it has some nice features, it does not give me that same 'this is a great tool' feeling as the original.

Then I bought an RS2.  Jumpy for the first bunch of hours then it smoothed out.  Hate that the cord is attached an I can't use my hose/cord setup.  In what way is this part of a system?

Picked up a RO 90 and 150.  Haven't used the 150 much, but the 90 has been a solid performer on sanding face frames, albeit really fatiguing keeping it flat.

Bought the RTS 400 sander in hopes it will help me sand face frames and ease my joints/muscles...too early too tell.

I bought the vac-sys to help holding parts for sanding and Dominos.  Early returns are positive for parts that fit the modules, not so much on those that don"t.

Oh, I have the small cordless saw to help me at remote sits, but have not he'd occasion to test it yet.

I have the CXS and TI-18 drills and find them to be a great combo, love the battery life...own and find the Centronics crap and a money grab.  If you sell and market a tool for the US, sell the darn bits too.

Trion, meh. Why did you make a tool where you can't see the cut line.

Stop the 'system' crap.  You make cordless tools that have no more DC than Black and Decker, make tools that the only 'system' inference is that it hooks to your vacs, and you make tools that have no integration capability. I could go on.

You have to provide tools that last forever, without repair, to justify your prices in today's market, where other companies like Mafell are eating your lunch on craftsmanship and innovation and the lower end companies are competing head to head. 

I've been a Festool fanboy for years, but the bloom seems to be fading.  I don't want to hear about new cordless tools that replace my existing tools, I want to hear about the latest COOL tools you were known for introducing.



Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2017, 11:03 PM »
Hey guys/gals, first post. I've been dreaming of these tools and couldn't justify the cost. Hilton and Amazon worked out a deal to use your hhonors to shop and made my dreams come true. Used my stash of hhonors points to purchase the domino 500, systainer full of dominos and cutters, ct26 dust collector, and the ets ec 125 brushless sander.

I joined FOG today finally as a real festool owner and the first post I read is this one from a well respected FOG member and I'm thinking I should have taken a 3 week vacation with these points instead.

Am I good to go?

From my perspective, I'm really enjoying the domino. It is the only way I have currently to join a 45 degree mitered table apron to a 90 degree square table leg. The perfect joint in my mind would be to make the end of the mitered apron a dovetail and cut a dovetail slot into the square table leg on a 45 degree angle. However, I don't have a tilting router table. I did my first mitered apron to square table leg today with three 4x20 dominos and it's perfect. I feel like I could make some quality furniture finally.

Looking forward to seeing what else I can make.


Brent

The Domino is a tool you will never regret owning. It is a one of a kind and does what it does extremely well. For the record I have 2-500's and a 700. I'd give up one of my TS's before I'd ever give up a Domino.

Tom

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5291
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: I am done
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2017, 11:07 PM »
As far as training goes, Ive been to about 3-4 training classes loved them. FT is available to give tech advice as to how to use their tools to do a certain operation. There is festool TV, there is the FOG, most members are really helpful.
The festool dealers who asre worth a salt have people who are trained in and very good at using festools.

 The dealers have the festool rep periodically has reps come out to their businesses and demo the tools and when I show up answered all my questions and helped me with any issues Ive had.

The info is available.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2017, 11:07 PM »


New shop and making a move will not include Festool, how can it. it's a shame I loved this forum and the guys here, but with forum leaning toward not being able to talk about other tools and me not having anything nice to say about Festool  I just dont see me being here, I am not going to cause drama. The QC is out the window, reminds me of the Laguna fiasco of about 5 years ago, something its wrong.

I am done!


     We are trying and are planning to be trying a little harder to rejuvenate FOG. But times and things do change and forums like everything else evolve. We would very much like it to move up the scale rather than down.  As far as not being able to talk about other tool brands goes? Not sure where that is coming from other that the recent / current Mafell topic where it was suggested that more and better info could be found on the Mafell forum rather than on the Festool forum. I have always  felt that being able to talk about other tool brands on FOG was a hallmark considering that the FOG is owned and operated by Festool.

    @Dovetail65     I do think that this is a rather dramatic post considering that you don't want to cause drama.  But I can certainly understand your extreme frustration and blowing off a little steam.

     Good luck with your new shop move. Would be great to see a shop tour or the like posted here.

Seth

Wait a second, I said my piece, one post and a follow up or two. Was I to say nothing at all? So it's drama to post  my one experience?

Your statement:

"I do think that this is a rather dramatic post considering that you don't want to cause drama."

The drama I am referring to is if I became vindictive telling everyone who will listen that there are issues with these sanders, posting  25-100 posts here on out dissing the tool. Some here have literally posted 100 times dissing the Kapex and the motor at every turn making that topic into a fiasco over several months. That is the drama I am not going to get in to. I actually believe you knew that already. Had you not made the above statement I would not even be back in this thread.

Near 5000 posts advocating Festool with ONE THREAD EVER STARTED STARTING TOOL DISSATISFACTION IN 8 YEARS. The only thing from a Festool perspective I have ever done negative is simply state a facts and comparisons that some some Fetools might not be the right choice, today was the first time I ever actually dissed a tool in a thread topic and it was after giving the benefit of the doubt over a period of months.


If I am not a guy Festool would want on the forum I have no idea who would be. I think to myself am I crazy, I don't get paid, what am I doing advocating for a tool company, I must be nuts. I guess the kool aid wore off or something because reading your one sentence for some weird reason hurt me for a second.. And that's weird to me.


    Well, exactly,(the bold above). The topic post you made, coming from a forum supporting member with a history of saying both good and bad with first hand experience about Festool products, with the title "I am done"?  With  a listing of tool problems, and a few comments about the forum direction, etc. Followed by (paraphrasing) I am quitting FOG? (All fine to state by the way, no problem in that regard).

    Yeah, it is a pretty big change up topic coming from you. And a bit surprising in it's sudden abruptness. No problem with you starting the topic or saying what you have said. But there is a lot there that is bound to draw a pretty big reaction and possibly dramatic response.  I was not meaning to suggest that you were going to purposely cause drama going forward. I was just pointing out that the original topic starting post, due to the above, was in and of itself dramatic. Not necessarily in a bad way or a good way. But it just seemed to be dramatic and that it (the original post) may cause some drama.

   Also it was not intended to hurt you. I am sorry that you took it that way if even for a second.

Seth
   

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2017, 11:09 PM »
@James Biddle,

Regarding the Vac-Sys and parts size. Use a piece large enough to cover the "cup", with a hole drilled just off center, place this on the cup, place the smaller piece over the hole. You may have to crib up the smaller piece to use the Domino, but you'll figure that out.

Trion/Carxex---I use the jigsaw upside down 99.9% of the time, no problem seeing the cut line.

Tom

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2017, 11:42 PM »
Hey guys/gals, first post. I've been dreaming of these tools and couldn't justify the cost. Hilton and Amazon worked out a deal to use your hhonors to shop and made my dreams come true. Used my stash of hhonors points to purchase the domino 500, systainer full of dominos and cutters, ct26 dust collector, and the ets ec 125 brushless sander.

I joined FOG today finally as a real festool owner and the first post I read is this one from a well respected FOG member and I'm thinking I should have taken a 3 week vacation with these points instead.

Am I good to go?

From my perspective, I'm really enjoying the domino. It is the only way I have currently to join a 45 degree mitered table apron to a 90 degree square table leg. The perfect joint in my mind would be to make the end of the mitered apron a dovetail and cut a dovetail slot into the square table leg on a 45 degree angle. However, I don't have a tilting router table. I did my first mitered apron to square table leg today with three 4x20 dominos and it's perfect. I feel like I could make some quality furniture finally.

Looking forward to seeing what else I can make.


Brent

Use it and be happy. (I have a 700)

Whether it is better than a Lamello Zeta or DD40 depends on what you are making.
(I also have a Zeta).

Same deal with sanders... (Many good manufacturers available)

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 249
Re: I am done
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2017, 08:09 AM »
It's posts like these that give a new user like me pause buying into such an expensive tool brand. Hopefully things can turn around between Dovetail and erock (one of the brands biggest supporters) seemingly being fed up I'm second guessing things.

My reason for buying into the brand is to be able to work in a smaller more portable fashion and indoors if I need to. If I had a big workshop with all the bells and whistles I probably wouldn't be as motivated.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 806
Re: I am done
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2017, 09:47 AM »
Here's my take - leveraged heavily from a previous post:

There are several kinds of quality.  This thread is about reliability, which is one kind of quality.  For my part I have purchased ten Festool tools, none more than two years old, and have sent two of them in for repair.  Festool repair has been very quick to repair them, so downtime (yet another measure of quality) has been minimal for my work, and at virtually no cost.  However, as the three year warranty periods expire, future repairs will become more expensive.

It seems to me that where Festool excels is at yet another measure of quality - fitness for use.  The integrated design for dust collection and design for use at customer sites with minimal impact on the site and relatively easy transportability are all characteristics of this measure of quality.  So far I'm not impressed with Festool reliability, since both my Milwaukee and DeWalt tools have been more reliable over a much longer period.  However, the quality of the design for dust control is useful enough to me that I will continue to buy/use Festool - as long as the cost of reliability does not become too burdensome.  Having said that, I realize that other tool vendors are catching up.

As a counter example to my overall happiness with Festool fitness for use, I sold my C18 because (1) it broke under moderate use and had to be repaired, (2) it is not integrated into the Festool dust collection system, which is the primary fitness of use category for me, and (3) the fitness for use is limited by the lack of support for 1/4" ball detent bits.   I can do what I need to do perfectly well with my Milwaukee and DeWalt drills, at the same dust levels, without having to buy expensive new bits.  Given that, I did not have any trouble selling it - there are people out there who calculate value differently than I do.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 09:50 AM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 181
Re: I am done
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2017, 10:17 AM »
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?

As for erock, he is active on his YouTube channel and Instagram under thepopularshop.
In the last few days he has posts on Instagram containing the TS55, guide rail, parallel guides, mft3 and kapex. That doesn't seem like someone who is disillusioned or unhappy with Festool to me but I could be wrong.



Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2017, 10:32 AM »
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?
...

Clearly it means nothing.
The person may have already had that bag, or other reasons which can include that it is good.
The only thing it means is that he used that particular bag.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2017, 10:49 AM »
Stop the 'system' crap.  You make cordless tools that have no more DC than Black and Decker,...

Actually the TSC & HKC are extremely impressive in DC when using just the standard Festool bag. I've also used the ETS EC 125 with the new Long-Life bag, 201693, and the DC is also impressive.

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: I am done
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2017, 12:38 PM »
Wow, I just joined this forum today because my less then 2 yrs. old Kapex stopped working. Something wrong with the switch,(hit the handle it works a few times) and the motor housing after doing 16 repetitive cuts in white pine was too hot to touch. I'm semi-retired, this saw has never moved from my garage, I mean it's been babied. No abuse, use sharp 60t Festool blades and it has multiple problems. With blades over 2000$ into this and I have a saw that's not close to the reliability of a Home Depot special. I was a professional woodworker for 30yrs. and my Dewalt DW708 lasted 25 of those years. I've got to find out if it's even still under warranty. If I can get it fixed I'm going to sell it immediately.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2017, 12:54 PM »
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?
...

Clearly it means nothing.
The person may have already had that bag, or other reasons which can include that it is good.
The only thing it means is that he used that particular bag.

I wouldn't infer too much for it either.   I've had track saws as long as anyone around here , maybe longer.   I once attached a dust bag from a Dewalt biscuit jointer to a TS. And to miter saws.

Would you surmise that Dewalt had it right ?  Keep in mind this was before Festool thought to even offer a dust bag for a saw.

Vacuum is still the best option, at least for me.

Offline retfr8flyr

  • Posts: 18
Re: I am done
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2017, 01:05 PM »
I am new to Festool also and I would add my 2¢. I bought the MTF3 table and an Domino 500 with the systainer full of Domino's. The MFT table yop surface was warped ½ inch in the middle. Festool sent me another top after several photos and back and forth emails. My Domino 500 seems to have the same problem others have noted, it doesn't cut the slots large enough for the Domino's to fit. I have to sand the Domino's down to get them to fit. I haven't even tried to get this corrected, after seeing on the forum what others had to do to get it fixed, I will just sand them down. I have always listened to how great Festool is and that they are really worth the cost. So far I have not been impressed with the quality of their products and I doubt I will be getting any more of them. I wanted a new 6 inch sander and was planning on getting the ETS EC 150/3. After my experience with the MTF3 and Domino, I got the Bosch ROS65VC-6 instead and saved lots of money

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2017, 01:45 PM »
I haven't even tried to get this corrected, after seeing on the forum what others had to do to get it fixed, I will just sand them down.

After my experience with the MTF3 and Domino, I got the Bosch ROS65VC-6 instead and saved lots of money

I’m sorry but that just doesn’t make sense. Do yourself a favor and go to the Festool website. Under service, go to Festool repair service and submit a repair request. They’ll issue an authorization to return the DF 500 for service and will pay for shipping both ways. I’ll guarantee the item will be back in your hands within 7-10 days.

Now about the Bosch...saving money is a good thing.  [big grin]

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 01:51 PM »
...As for erock, he is active on his YouTube channel and Instagram under thepopularshop.
In the last few days he has posts on Instagram containing the TS55, guide rail, parallel guides, mft3 and kapex. That doesn't seem like someone who is disillusioned or unhappy with Festool to me but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the update on eRock - I subscribed to his channel, I always liked his videos.  I also found his Facebook page and it looks like he has sold off the majority of his Festools and has gone mainly to Bosch and Makita. 

I found this interesting comment he posted when someone asked what happened to all his Festools :
"I've decided not to promote Festool tools for personal reasons. Great tools, I'm just not happy the direction Festool USA is heading."

https://www.facebook.com/thepoplarshop/

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 299
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: I am done
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 01:57 PM »
Yup, Erock was pretty stern in his rebuke. His shop used to be a shrine to the green goddess.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 681
Re: I am done
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2017, 02:50 PM »
snipe
Thanks for the update on eRock - I subscribed to his channel, I always liked his videos.  I also found his Facebook page and it looks like he has sold off the majority of his Festools and has gone mainly to Bosch and Makita. 

I found this interesting comment he posted when someone asked what happened to all his Festools :
"I've decided not to promote Festool tools for personal reasons. Great tools, I'm just not happy the direction Festool USA is heading."

https://www.facebook.com/thepoplarshop/

Wait a minute. That's eRock? I have come across a few of his Festool videos and he sounded totally into Festool. I was surprised to hear about his separation from all his Festool goodies...for reasons unknown. I have not been paying attention to the direction Festool USA was heading and so I have no clues on what it was all about.

His leaving the Festool scene reminds me of another (former?) woodworker by the handle of Half-inch Shy who has disappeared from the woodworking community. I do know someone in person who recently told me that after his two or three decades of Japanese woodworking, he decided to call it quits and no longer has fire in his belly for any woodworking. I could one day wake up and go down that path without warning, too.

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 59
Re: I am done
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2017, 02:50 PM »
For me, Festool helped me out a great deal in organizing my shop.  Was I happy at the price of a long rail ? NOPE !!! was I happy at needing to buy the long LR32 holey rail ? REALLY NOPE ! but the long holey is just a few inches too short for the project I was working on, I understand the marketing reason for it...force you to buy 2 rails and it worked. 

I found the TS55 REQ to be quite nice, not great but it does its job quite well for me.  The 1400 router, is no better than other routers that are half the price but I do really like the ratcheting mechanism on the router collet.  I felt I needed the 1400 for the LR32, other routers can be made to work but I didn't want the hassle.  Using the 1400 router in non-LR32 mode, worked like any other router.  The C18 drill, is nice, but I hate that Centrotec crap, I want to use all my existing bits, so I use the C18 exclusively with the keyless chuck and when the C18 dies, I will go back to standard drill that uses industry standard parts.  The MFT/3 table serves its purpose in my shop nicely, nothing to brag about but I like it and would buy it again.  The LR32, now that is freaking AWESOME and the Domino, why did I wait so long to buy a Domino, why ? why ?

 But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes.  For the last few months its been daily plasma cutting, welding and metal fabrication work, primer is almost down and then it will engine/gearbox time, during this time, my Unisaw is a engine rebuilding bench, my workbench is a sheet metal bench for making patch panels (WAS a rusty car).  When my garage is in car mode, I usually can't do any woodworking of any kind, with Festool MFT/3 I can set it up and do a quick project for the wife/house and my Festools reside all neatly organized in their systainers where I can get to them.  In a few months when the car is done, I will be back into full woodworking mode (next car has a wood frame under the aluminum body).  Festool showed me how wonderful their organization system is and I am working it into sheet metal work as well.  Using the Domino and track saw I built a ugly but very functional drawer system to sit under the Metal lathe and Mill to keep all that junk organized, built that in one afternoon so its not pretty but I would never have done it before I got hooked on Festool organization.   But you know what ? the "system" is not their tools and I see my future with less Festool tools and more Festool type organization, systainer style stuff.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2017, 03:18 PM »

... But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes. 

I never saw the fascination of using systainers - other than to show off how many Festools you owned/collcted.  I guess I could see it if you were a professional and had to schlepp all your tools to a different job site each day, but for most of us enthusiasts working out of a 2 or 3 stall garage - it made more sense for me to just build drawers or cabinets.  For example, I can get my Trion Jigsaw and my DTS 400 in a single divided drawer

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Regarding the LS32 system - I have a dedicated router just for the LS32 system and it is permanently mounted

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I found this on eRocks's facebook page:

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 681
Re: I am done
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2017, 03:29 PM »
I won't spend money on a systainer for shop storage purposes, but the systainers that came with the tools are indispensable for me as I keep all the Festool machines inside the house (which is protected by a security alarm system) for added security reasons. They are stored in the hallway closet, directly from the garage entrance door.

Online leakyroof

  • Posts: 2199
Re: I am done
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2017, 03:39 PM »

... But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes. 

I never saw the fascination of using systainers - other than to show off how many Festools you owned/collcted.  I guess I could see it if you were a professional and had to schlepp all your tools to a different job site each day, but for most of us enthusiasts working out of a 2 or 3 stall garage - it made more sense for me to just build drawers or cabinets.  For example, I can get my Trion Jigsaw and my DTS 400 in a single divided drawer

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)


Regarding the LS32 system - I have a dedicated router just for the LS32 system and it is permanently mounted

(Attachment Link)

I found this on eRocks's facebook page:

(Attachment Link)
   No 'fascination' as you put it, but buying Tools or supplies in Systainers, or adding existing other tool lines into fitted Systainers allow me MUCH better access to everything, and since the systainers are highly portable via numerous ways, it's easier to get things moved from Point A to Point B.
 I use Sys Carts to store them on and to roll around my shop. No need to build dedicated storage, and if I sell off a tool, it's just one stack that got lower in height. The same for adding stuff, it fits an existing stack or I buy yet another Sys Cart and start a new stack..... [embarassed]
 Sys Roll to go to a Job Site, OR, putting Systainers on top of one of my Vacs.
 Other than a few oddball tool kits/boxes that don't lock to my Systainers, I'm set for tidy storage and portability.   I COULD finally move my Makita tools into Systainers, haven't done that yet... [scratch chin] [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 490
Re: I am done
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2017, 05:35 PM »
If i see one more post about how Festool drill are rubbish because "i want to use my own bits" i might be done with this forum  [big grin]

Im not telling anyone they should buy a festool drill, despite owning 4 of them and being basically in love with centrotec ... They can be viewed as an  un-necessarly expensive way of drilling holes and driving screws for sure...  But they come with a bloody keyless chuck people! Just like that other drill that takes all your bits!
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 432
Re: I am done
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2017, 05:47 PM »
Clearly festool must be doing something wrong if people are modifying tools to get festool accessories to work. 

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 59
Re: I am done
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2017, 06:38 PM »
I didnt say the drill was rubish :) I said it was nice and that when it breaks I look forward to going to a drill that uses industry standard bits, but I hope it does not break for a long time, its nice.

 For the systainers, I don't have a fascination with them but the tools came with them and I saw the beauty of drawers and organization. Before that, all my tools were thrown together in one big metal filing cabinet drawer or toolbox drawer and never organized.  I have since built "custom" drawers for my tools and also a cabinet with sys-az's for the systainers, got a few non-Festool systainers also.  What they showed me is how wonderful it is to be organized where I was not before. 

 But back to the tools, with few exceptions I no longer drink the green cool-aid but you wont ever see my Domino or LR32 for sale :)
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2017, 09:28 PM »
Clearly festool must be doing something wrong if people are modifying tools to get festool accessories to work.

Well , I modified my Festool to use dewalt accessories that weren't even available.  So they were doing something right in that instance?

Offline PreferrablyWood

  • Posts: 900
Re: I am done
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2017, 01:05 AM »
@mikeyr
I'm a big fan of the CXS, and also have the PDC 18. I think  the Centrotec system change the egronomics of using drills  there is no comparison of poping a bit in the centrotec bit holder as opposed to using a keyless chuck where that little twist on the skin of my already hard used skin seems unecessarily uncomfortable. Besides this its way quicker to change bits.
Another fine thing is the centrotec chuck is small and space saving.

So it's a superior system to a normal keyless chuck.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 01:08 AM by PreferrablyWood »
RO 150, 850 HL E Planer rustic head standard head angle fence, MFS 400x2, MFS extensions MFS VB 700 x 1 MFS VB 1000 x 2 . CMS GE, sliding fence, VB and 2x VL extension tables, OF 2200, Accessory Set ZS OF 2200 M,36mm 5m antistatik hose, CMS OF+ CMS TS 75 insert modules. SYS-MFT Fixing-Set,  3.5m sleeved hose, Syslite duo, Sys 4 sort 3 x3, Sys Roll, Sys 1 Box x2 , classic Sys 3-Sort 4, classic Sys 3 Sort 6 x2, Sys Cart x3 Systainer 4 x2  as toolbox with selfmade inserts Systainer 5 as toolbox with insert.
Festool 18V HKC 55 Li 5.2 EB Plus FSK 420,FSK 250, Extra blade for the HKC 55 W32.TI 15, CXS 2.6 Ah version, RO 90 DX, PDC 18/4 plus DC UNI FF depth stop chuck,AD 3/8 square socket holder FF chuck, Centrotec Bits; -->Bit holder and bit selection BHS 65 CE TL 24x, ,Bradpoint DB WOOD CE SET ,Zobo (Forstner) D 15-35 CE-Zobo SET ,Masonary/stone bits DB STONE CE Set,Extender BV 150 CE, Countersink QLS D2-8 CE Hook turner HD D18, end centrotec<--.  TS 75 EBQ, PSC 420, OF 1010, RS 300 EQ, CTL Midi, MFT 3, Parf dogs x2pair +Bench dogs x2pair, FS 1080, FS 1900 .  will get Domino DF 700 XL,  CMS insert BS 120 Belt sander.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2017, 03:41 AM »
@mikeyr
I'm a big fan of the CXS, and also have the PDC 18. I think  the Centrotec system change the egronomics of using drills  there is no comparison of poping a bit in the centrotec bit holder as opposed to using a keyless chuck where that little twist on the skin of my already hard used skin seems unecessarily uncomfortable. Besides this its way quicker to change bits.
Another fine thing is the centrotec chuck is small and space saving.

So it's a superior system to a normal keyless chuck.

Maybe there is a comparison to the A10M/A18M or Metabo bit holders, which takes the 1/4" sized standard bits?

Offline Shadytree

  • Posts: 24
Re: I am done
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2017, 06:56 AM »
What alternative is there in North America?
All the US companies have gone to overseas production and innovation went out the window.
Makita, Bosch & Fein are ok, but aren't exactly pushing the envelope in any area of development either.
The only 2 companies that are taking risk in product development that I have access to are Festool & Mafell.
I am happy that they exist, otherwise I would be using some cookie cutter drill / saw / router.


Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 237
Re: I am done
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2017, 08:24 AM »
What alternative is there in North America?
All the US companies have gone to overseas production and innovation went out the window.
Makita, Bosch & Fein are ok, but aren't exactly pushing the envelope in any area of development either.
The only 2 companies that are taking risk in product development that I have access to are Festool & Mafell.
I am happy that they exist, otherwise I would be using some cookie cutter drill / saw / router.

A couple comments/reactions:

1. Europe is overseas from the US
2. Apparently taking risks in product development means selling boutique tools at exorbitant pricing that also seem to display poorer reliability than the luddites at DeWalt/Makita.
3. I have a set of cookie cutter "20V L-I" Dewalts...2 drills, an impact driver, 5 basic batteries, 2-5AH batteries and 2 chargers.  They are comfortable to use, powerful, run long on a charge, I've used them hard, and they never miss a beat.  I've acquired the entire lot for about the ballpark price of a single Fe$tool cordless drill kit.
4. I agree that Festool does have some uniquely useful tools.  I have a Kapex on UG cart with extensions and if you need a SCMS that travels there is no other comparable option.  Fortunately mine is 8 years old bought used at 60% of list, I use it hard and it hasn't missed a beat.  The Dominoes seem similarly innovative although I have no personal experience with them.

For the most part I see Festool as playing the market like other well known German luxury goods products - there are islands of innovation but broadly the transaction is overpriced products where the main selling point is the brand logo and the "luxury status" it confers and the high cost of ownership is a bragging point!

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: I am done
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2017, 08:49 AM »
shadytree - you seem to dismiss Asian produced tools out of hand.   That's really shortsighted.

Sure , there's some absolute crap coming out if there.  But there is also some really good stuff from those who control or closely monitor their production facilities.  Milwaukee is a good example. Their drill drivers and impacts kick Festool's euro made ones up and down the jobsite all day , every day.

Dewalt has been bringing back tool production to the USA for a while now.  So that'd be an option for a domestic brand and produced tool.  Their battery/120v converting tools are pretty innovative. 

Makita is one of the leaders in battery tools ever since they brought out the first cordless drill.  Their lineup dwarfs Festool's.  Which, is innovating what exactly ?

Track saw - absolutely.  Domino? Sure. But that was a decade ago, and there have been alternatives for the professional.  Drywall sander ? - PC came out with one last century. Cordless sander ? Makita -18 months ago.  And the .XS drill were at least 6 years late to the party for small drills. And the battery platform supports 0 other tools. Jobsite HK saws were "borrowed" from someone else. Lights are hardly innovative.  Air cooled chargers ? I've been placing my chargers on a/c vent on jobs for decades, accomplishing much the same thing with no cost or effort. I sure don't consider that innovative, just practical experience.

As far as risk takers, how about Makita's battery powered shopvac? That's a risky venture. Milwaukee's cordless hedge clipper?  Not a lot of need for one of those on
jobsites I visit. Dewalt's battery powered routers are a bit risky in my view also.  Bosch's induction charging station is on the forefront too, but risky. They have to get people to buy in to different behavior. Not removing the battery from the tool to clip, slide or push into a charger. FT's airstream charger works like a normal charger in that regard.

So, lots of choice for quality tools here in the USA even from domestic brands, whether they are made here or in Asia.  Plenty of innovation to go around too, not just from Mafell and Festool.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:57 AM by antss »

Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: I am done
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2017, 11:14 AM »

Makita is one of the leaders in battery tools ever since they brought out the first cordless drill.  Their lineup dwarfs Festool's.  Which, is innovating what exactly?

I am very pleased with Makita.  I even have their hedge trimmer, 18v blower, 36v blower, mini-vac, along with their more traditional tools - drill, driver, led light, jigsaw, grinder, circular saw etc.  I just got their 18v router - and I really like it.  I thought Makita was a quality product when I bought their 'stick' cordless drills back in the 80's and here it is, over 30 years later and Makita has never let me down.  I can say the same thing for Bosch, actually - but hey, Makita and Bosch are for the more 'common people' - right?

Speaking of routers, I have 3 smaller/trim routers.  Dewalt, Bosch, & Makita.  All 3 were purchased (with accessories like plunge bases, etc) for less than the cost of one Festool 1400. And you know what - These other companies don't have yearly price increases!!!
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Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 124
Re: I am done
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2017, 12:45 PM »
All my cordless tools are Milwaukee M18 with the exception of the CXS. The CXS is my go to drill for hardware and pocket screw install. The new line of Milwaukee is excellent quality. Most of the ones I purchased was bare tools, and save me hundreds of dollars.
Who needs 8 chargers and 15 batteries?
I have invested a small fortune in Festool products to help increase production and quality in my work. Customers love the dust free experience and I continue to get more work because of it. Don't forget the 3 year warranty! This is what pushed me over the price barrier.
My Festool's consist of sanders, vac's, vac sys, domino, track saws and routers. These tools I believe are the best Festool has to offer for my business along with organizing products like the systainers.
Not everything Festool makes is the best. I believe a lot of people on this forum thinks it is. I think if you put all your eggs in one basket so to speek you are looking for disappointment.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8644
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2017, 12:50 PM »


I am very pleased with Makita.  I even have their hedge trimmer, 18v blower, 36v blower, mini-vac, along with their more traditional tools - drill, driver, led light, jigsaw, grinder, circular saw etc.  I just got their 18v router - and I really like it.  I thought Makita was a quality product when I bought their 'stick' cordless drills back in the 80's and here it is, over 30 years later and Makita has never let me down.  I can say the same thing for Bosch, actually - but hey, Makita and Bosch are for the more 'common people' - right?



Seriously?    This is the kind of pot stirring remark that puts people off from participating on the forum or creates discord in the middle of discussions. Please refrain and restrain in the future.  Just simply no need for it.


Seth

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 335
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: I am done
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2017, 02:46 PM »


I am very pleased with Makita.  I even have their hedge trimmer, 18v blower, 36v blower, mini-vac, along with their more traditional tools - drill, driver, led light, jigsaw, grinder, circular saw etc.  I just got their 18v router - and I really like it.  I thought Makita was a quality product when I bought their 'stick' cordless drills back in the 80's and here it is, over 30 years later and Makita has never let me down.  I can say the same thing for Bosch, actually - but hey, Makita and Bosch are for the more 'common people' - right?



Seriously?    This is the kind of pot stirring remark that puts people off from participating on the forum or creates discord in the middle of discussions. Please refrain and restrain in the future.  Just simply no need for it.


Seth

I thought it was just an attempt at humor possibly to lighten up the mood a bit? If it was I guess it failed.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 881
Re: I am done
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2017, 03:12 PM »


I am very pleased with Makita.  I even have their hedge trimmer, 18v blower, 36v blower, mini-vac, along with their more traditional tools - drill, driver, led light, jigsaw, grinder, circular saw etc.  I just got their 18v router - and I really like it.  I thought Makita was a quality product when I bought their 'stick' cordless drills back
in the 80's and here it is, over 30 years later and Makita has never let me down.  I can say the same thing for Bosch, actually - but hey, Makita and Bosch are for the more 'common people' - right?

@SRSemenza
You are right 100%

Mick



Seriously?    This is the kind of pot stirring remark that puts people off from participating on the forum or creates discord in the middle of discussions. Please refrain and restrain in the future.  Just simply no need for it.


Seth

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8644
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2017, 03:51 PM »
  @J0hn  If it was an attempt at humor ...... sorry if I mistook.

Seth

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 299
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: I am done
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2017, 04:49 PM »
Not to rile anyone up, but personally I never saw the use for the Festool drills. When I look at tools, price is a big concern. Then I look at the tool itself, and ask what does it offer me that any others don't, and I couldn't really come up with anything for the Festools. The Domino, the TS, absolutely. The routers? A little less so, but there they are. The sanders, absolutely. The jigsaw I bought on a lark. The MFT is good, but can be replicated and done better for cheaper.

I want to like the Kapex and it's dust collection, but I just can't spend that kind of money with the reliability reports I've seen. My Hitachi might throw dust everywhere, but it's reliable. I keep hoping there will be some public acknowledgement of an issue and a fix or upgrade, but there hasn't been one. Apologies and acknowledgement go a long way in the eyes of the consumer.

At this point, there's really no other Festools that are in my future, and that seems like a shame.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 237
Re: I am done
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2017, 07:10 PM »
Who needs 8 chargers and 15 batteries?

OK 2 is not equal to 8 and 7 is not equal to 15...you should have paid more attention in 4th grade math.  Oh and if you buy Fe$tool it does not matter if you need them, it would take a bag full of Bitcoins to buy them!

Online six-point socket II

  • Posts: 785
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: I am done
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2017, 08:16 PM »
Hi,

I'd like to take the chance and offer my opinion on Festool's cordless drills as I feel it's a subject I can actually speak from quite a bit of experience on. And also on some of the other issues.

Let me start by saying that:

I understand that certain Centrotec bits and drill bits are not readily available in the US, which is a problem if those are the ones you need most.

I understand that certain type bits and drill bits can't be placed directly into the Centrotec chuck.

I understand that both the short and long Centrotec magnetic bit holders are often not the preferred solution because they are non-locking.

I understand that placing bits and drill bits directly into the FastFix connector can be as cumbersome/problematic as using the non-locking magnetic bit holders.

I understand that for professionals with an enormous field of expertise the cordless range in both 10.8/12 and 18 V might not meet their demands when considering to live on a single or two types of batteries.

I understand that US customers, and some who have obviously stopped contributing here, weren't to happy about the "imperial announcement".

I understand when someone says I've had enough - for whatever reason - and moves on.

This is in no way directed at anyone, here or elsewhere, in particular. It's my humble opinion on a couple of topics.

What I don't understand:

- Claims that Festool drills lack torque. To sink a quality 4.5x60 screw into typical construction type wood you need approx. 5 Nm of torque. A DWC 18-4500 although not meant to do this can still do this all day long. A PDC/DRC is rated at 40 Nm of torque and can sink a 10x400 into the same type/grade wood. It has no issues drilling 30 mm holes with auger type drill bits in 3rd gear, or 50 mm holes with forstner type drill bits in 2nd gear (high quality drill bits, obviously). In 4th gear and in conjunction with either the Festool CE stone drill bits or other high quality drill bits it eats stone like a hot knife slices through butter. Additionally, and this has nothing to do with torque but it's still noteworthy, it has one of the highest RPM available in a cordless drill/driver.

What exactly is it, that it lacks when speaking about torque and in which professional environment? (That wouldn't probably require a completely different tool anyway in first place?)

This is a drill/driver and not an impact driver or impact wrench.

- Claims that it will not work with standard bits and drill bits. Yeah, I know, the Centrotec chuck - I'll give you that, as stated before. But still, even the basic variant comes with a keyless chuck that will accommodate most bit holders, bits, drill bits available. Of course you're missing out on the quick change chuck, it might be not as compact - but you could always insert a quick change bit holder as intermediate solution, while you're switching to Centrotec.

- Claims that Centrotec is too expensive and proprietary to some extent. Now i'll admit, as I stated before there seems to be an issue on the availability of certain, pretty much US specific, bits and imperial drill bits. If this is an issue for you, I get that and there's nothing I could say to make that go away. It's not that we in Germany don't know this problem as some drill bits from past installer's kits can't be bought separately here as well.

But then, one needs to compare apples with apples. Sure, Centrotec bits and drill bits aren't the cheapest on the market, and again, I get that in the US those are even a little more expensive. Which makes it even harder to "sell".

But I'd like to invite you to take a closer look at what you'll get if you buy Centrotec bits and drill bits. (Not counting the 25mm standard 1/4" hex bits) You get exceptional quality bits and drill bits. From the excellent self centering drill bit, to the 3,5 and 5 mm carbide drill bits with depth stop, the drill bits with counter sink, the counter sinks with cross hole and last but not least the really excellent and long living HSS and brad point drill bits - not to mention the stubby brad point drill bits. The HSS drill bits being exchangeable and most replacement drill bits can be bought in packages of three. For most of the afore mentioned "special" drill bits spares can be had too.

Now if you look for exactly the same type of functionality, is Centrotec still as prohibitory expensive as some claim?

I know I'm going to be met with rotten tomatoes at the town stocks of FOG-land but I'm going to say it anyway: Out of everything Festool offers, Centrotec really is a system. And a great one at that when you decide to go all in. If you don't, you will always find something to criticize and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

- The Kapex issue. Is it frustrating for those affected (some multiple times), I bet so! But what I don't understand about it is that: If I can't resolve the issues I'm having with 1st and 2nd level support - is it so hard to escalate your case by writing an old fashioned letter directly to Festools CEO, either in the US or directly to German HQ? Mark it personal (Individual name BEFORE Company), make sure it's going out "certified/registered mail" and wait what happens.

This will resolve any issue much quicker and more efficiently than any forum post. Additionally, the people dealing with your issue then, are the ones that can actually make decisions beyond what any 1st or 2nd level support employee can. And you actually have a real chance to get what you want. Stuff like this is not handled publicly, but in my experience many high-end brands and manufacturers will go a long way to satisfy their customers when certain trouble and problems are brought up in a non hostile way but firmly enough and directly.

- Claims that Festool isn't innovative enough or is way behind on current market offerings. Honestly, no matter who you ask and if that person is loyal/focussed on a single brand will tell you the same about his/her brand: they're behind on current market offerings. Maybe except for the Milwaukee guys. Ask a Bosch guy and he will tell you about TTI (Milwaukee and them using their synergies with Ryobi and AEG) Ask a Fein guy and he will tell you about Metabo. Ask a DeWalt guy and he will tell you about Hilti or whatever...

It doesn't matter. When you're in and know the manufacturers you will always find one that has a tool you'd wish you could get within your cordless platform or accessory line. It's life.

(I personally circumvent this by buying tools instead of a battery platform. In todays high Ah world and batteries costing significantly less then just a couple of years ago, most often you don't need (a) charger(s) for every tool anyway - so you'd still be able to maintain a small footprint when/if necessary.)

- The Pro 5 issue. Festool had an truly exceptional promotion, I have never seen one like it before and obviously underestimated the total demand for this limited time, promotional offer. This can happen. It shouldn't, and yes everyone at Festool probably knew how exceptional the offering was and they should have anticipated a bigger demand - and maybe they did. Maybe they increased the run of Pro 5 sanders by 100, 200 or even 300% we're never going to know - but we know it wasn't enough. We also know that offers like this almost always get exploited in one way or the other - it's what happens - it's not Festool's fault. I would have loved to read the complaints if buying the Pro 5 would have entailed to submit your ID, Passport or SSN to the dealer who would then have to forward these to Festool... For whatever reason this promo got out of hand, it was handled and I doubt we're going to see something like this all too soon again.

- Last but not least and highly important to me: Admins, Moderators, Festool-Staff and Festool-Fan's are NOT your enemy - no matter how you currently feel about the brand. And this one really strikes close the the heart. The hostility I have read more than just a couple of times especially towards this group of people has left me speechless time and time again. If you don't mean something, if you don't want to imply something - don't say it. I'm not going to name any names of either side here here but accusing people who contribute so much, with literally all their heart, mind, body and soul, to this place and the community of woodworkers, makers, diy'ers in general of being on Festool's payroll in some way was by far the worst that I have ever read on here. And I swear I have heard some hearts crack at the very moment it was brought up. There will always be people that carry the fire. Some lose it over time because of one or more incidents, some behold it, some spread it. The only way to spread it is to be enthusiastic about it. And just because enthusiasm is more often than not swatted away in todays world, it doesn't mean it isn't real but paid for or simply fake.

The hours it takes to create content, from the smallest review to 4k videos and live footage from events are enormous. While you can write a review, take and process some pictures rather quick you will still easily invest an hour or two, not to mentioning the time you loose while working on the actual project to take said pictures and how it slows you down overall. It sums up. And when we're talking videos, take that x5 or maybe x8. Enthusiasm is what keeps most of these people going. This can't be bought with a free tool, a free meal or some merchandise, that would be likewise an enormous insult.

Sure, there are commercial content creators throughout all parts of the internet that make a living from reviews, vlogs and project content and of course it most often involves sponsorship, platform/advertising revenue and more recently patronage. Why not? If there weren't enough consumers and patrons it would have been over before it even had really started.

But implying that every contributor is just looking to make a quick buck and get a free tool, it really, deeply hurt me to read that even though it was in no way directed at me (how could it, I'm just a guy doing his thing). But I thought of so many fine people and how they must have felt reading that, or being told about it.

The same goes for the fine people mainly responsible for running this place. They should be thanked and not accused or insulted. Without them, there would be no FOG. The hours they spent, the stuff and all the different issues they have to put up with on a daily basis are remarkable. And they are likewise as enormous that (Festool employee or not) they can't be compensated with a free tool or whatever you might think they eventually get (extra). I sure hope they do get something, but on the other hand, speaking from experience (NOT with Festool) I wouldn't be surprised if it's a clap on the shoulder.

Let's also not forget the Dealers who hang out here. Stepping up whenever they can to provide information and knowledge. Being easily identifiable and risking to be called out publicly for something that basically isn't their fault. The continuous negativity, some of it being highly trivial matters, makes their life harder too.

--

I would love to see and read less negativity all throughout the forum. I would love to see more projects being posted. I would love to see more positive and encouraging interaction throughout all threads but especially regarding projects. I would love to read more specific, straight to the point criticism free of sarcasm and cynicism whenever needed. I would love to see more comparing throughout any advice given instead of a single line: X is better.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:32 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: I am done
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2017, 08:38 PM »
Hi,

I'd like to take the chance and offer my opinion on Festool's cordless drills as I feel it's a subject I can actually speak from quite a bit of experience on. And also on some of the other issues.

Let me start by saying that:

I understand that certain Centrotec bits and drill bits are not readily available in the US, which is a problem if those are the ones you need most.

I understand that certain type bits and drill bits can't be placed directly into the Centrotec chuck.

I understand that both the short and long Centrotec magnetic bit holders are often not the preferred solution because they are non-locking.

I understand that placing bits and drill bits directly into the FastFix connector can be as cumbersome/problematic as using the non-locking magnetic bit holders.

I understand that for professionals with an enormous field of expertise the cordless range in both 10.8/12 and 18 V might not meet their demands when considering to live on a single or two types of batteries.

I understand that US customers, and some who have obviously stopped contributing here, weren't to happy about the "imperial announcement".

I understand when someone says I've had enough - for whatever reason - and moves on.

This is in no way directed at anyone, here or elsewhere, in particular. It's my humble opinion on a couple of topics.

What I don't understand:

- Claims that Festool drills lack torque. To sink a quality 4.5x60 screw into typical construction type wood you need approx. 5 Nm of torque. A DWC 18-4500 although not meant to do this can still do this all day long. A PDC/DRC is rated at 40 Nm of torque and can sink a 10x400 into the same type/grade wood. It has no issues drilling 30 mm holes with auger type drill bits in 3rd gear, or 50 mm holes with forstner type drill bits in 2nd gear (high quality drill bits, obviously). In 4th gear and in conjunction with either the Festool CE stone drill bits or other high quality drill bits it eats stone like a hot knife slices through butter. Additionally, and this has nothing to do with torque but it's still noteworthy, it has one of the highest RPM available in a cordless drill/driver.

What exactly is it, that it lacks when speaking about torque and in which professional environment? (That wouldn't probably require a completely different tool anyway in first place?)

This is a drill/driver and not an impact driver or impact wrench.

- Claims that it will not work with standard bits and drill bits. Yeah, I know, the Centrotec chuck - I'll give you that, as stated before. But still, even the basic variant comes with a keyless chuck that will accommodate most bit holders, bits, drill bits available. Of course you're missing out on the quick change chuck, it might be not as compact - but you could always insert a quick change bit holder as intermediate solution, while you're switching to Centrotec.

- Claims that Centrotec is too expensive and proprietary to some extent. Now i'll admit, as I stated before there seems to be an issue on the availability of certain, pretty much US specific, bits and imperial drill bits. If this is an issue for you, I get that and there's nothing I could say to make that go away. It's not that we in Germany don't know this problem as some drill bits from past installer's kits can't be bought separately here as well.

But then, one needs to compare apples with apples. Sure, Centrotec bits and drill bits aren't the cheapest on the market, and again, I get that in the US those are even a little more expensive. Which makes it even harder to "sell".

But I'd like to invite you to take a closer look at what you'll get if you buy Centrotec bits and drill bits. (Not counting the 25mm standard 1/4" hex bits) You get exceptional quality bits and drill bits. From the excellent self centering drill bit, to the 3,5 and 5 mm carbide drill bits with depth stop, the drill bits with counter sink, the counter sinks with cross hole and last but not least the really excellent and long living HSS and brad point drill bits - not to mention the stubby brad point drill bits. The HSS drill bits being exchangeable and most replacement drill bits can be bought in packages of three. For most of the afore mentioned "special" drill bits spares can be had too.

Now if you look for exactly the same type of functionality, is Centrotec still as prohibitory expensive as some claim?

I know I'm going to be met with rotten tomatoes at the town stocks of FOG-land but I'm going to say it anyway: Out of everything Festool offers, Centrotec really is a system. And a great one at that when you decide to go all in. If you don't, you will always find something to criticize and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

- The Kapex issue. Is it frustrating for those affected (some multiple times), I bet so! But what I don't understand about it is that: If I can't resolve the issues I'm having with 1st and 2nd level support - is it so hard to escalate your case by writing an old fashioned letter directly to Festools CEO, either in the US or directly to German HQ? Mark it personal (Individual name BEFORE Company), make sure it's going out "certified/registered mail" and wait what happens.

This will resolve any issue much quicker and more efficiently than any forum post. Additionally, the people dealing with your issue then, are the ones that can actually make decisions beyond what any 1st or 2nd level support employee can. And you actually have a real chance to get what you want. Stuff like this is not handled publicly, but in my experience many high-end brands and manufacturers will go a long way to satisfy their customers when certain trouble and problems are brought up in a non hostile way but firmly enough and directly.

- Claims that Festool isn't innovative enough or is way behind on current market offerings. Honestly, no matter who you ask and if that person is loyal/focussed on a single brand will tell you the same about his/her brand: they're behind on current market offerings. Maybe except for the Milwaukee guys. Ask a Bosch guy and he will tell you about TTI (Milwaukee and them using their synergies with Ryobi and AEG) Ask a Fein guy and he will tell you about Metabo. Ask a DeWalt guy and he will tell you about Hilti or whatever...

It doesn't matter. When you're in and know the manufacturers you will always find one that has a tool you'd wish you could get within your cordless platform or accessory line. It's life.

(I personally circumvent this by buying tools instead of a battery platform. In todays high Ah world and batteries costing significantly less then just a couple of years ago, most often you don't need (a) charger(s) for every tool anyway - so you'd still be able to maintain a small footprint when/if necessary.)

- The Pro 5 issue. Festool had an truly exceptional promotion, I have never seen one like it before and obviously underestimated the total demand for this limited time, promotional offer. This can happen. It shouldn't, and yes everyone at Festool probably knew how exceptional the offering was and they should have anticipated a bigger demand - and maybe they did. Maybe they increased the run of Pro 5 sanders by 100, 200 or even 300% we're never going to know - but we know it wasn't enough. We also know that offers like this almost always get exploited in one way or the other - it's what happens - it's not Festool's fault. I would have loved to read the complaints if buying the Pro 5 would have entailed to submit your ID, Passport or SSN to the dealer who would then have to forward these to Festool... For whatever reason this promo got out of hand, it was handled and I doubt we're going to see something like this all too soon again.

- Last but not least and highly important to me: Admins, Moderators, Festool-Staff and Festool-Fan's are NOT your enemy - no matter how you currently feel about the brand. And this one really strikes close the the heart. The hostility I have read more than just a couple of times especially towards this group of people has left me speechless time and time again. If you don't mean something, if you don't want to imply something - don't say it. I'm not going to name any names of either side here here but accusing people who contribute so much, with literally all their heart, mind, body and soul, to this place and the community of woodworkers, makers, diy'ers in general of being on Festool's payroll in some way was by far the worst that I have ever read on here. And I swear I have heard some hearts crack at the very moment it was brought up. There will always be people that carry the fire. Some lose it over time because of one or more incidents, some behold it, some spread it. The only way to spread it is to be enthusiastic about it. And just because enthusiasm is more often than not swatted away in todays world, it doesn't mean it isn't real but paid for or simply fake.

The hours it takes to create content, from the smallest review to 4k videos and live footage from events are enormous. While you can write a review, take and process some pictures rather quick you will still easily invest an hour or two, not to mentioning the time you loose while working on the actual project to take said pictures and how it slows you down overall. It sums up. And when we're talking videos, take that x5 or maybe x8. Enthusiasm is what keeps most of these people going. This can't be bought with a free tool, a free meal or some merchandise, that would be likewise an enormous insult.

Sure, there are commercial content creators throughout all parts of the internet that make a living from reviews, vlogs and project content and of course it most often involves sponsorship, platform/advertising revenue and more recently patronage. Why not? If there weren't enough consumers and patrons it would have been over before it even had really started.

But implying that every contributor is just looking to make a quick buck and get a free tool, tt really, deeply hurt me to read that even though it was in no way directed at me (how could it, I'm just a guy doing his thing). But I thought of so many fine people and how they must have felt reading that, or being told about it.

The same goes for the fine people mainly responsible for running this place. They should be thanked and not accused or insulted. Without them, there would be no FOG. The hours they spent, the stuff and all the different issues they have to put up with on a daily basis are remarkable. And they are likewise as enormous that (Festool employee or not) they can't be compensated with a free tool or whatever you might think they eventually get (extra). I sure hope they do get something, but on the other hand, speaking from experience (NOT with Festool) I wouldn't be surprised if it's a clap on the shoulder.

Let's also not forget the Dealers who hang out here. Stepping up whenever they can to provide information and knowledge. Being easily identifiable and risking to be called out publicly for something that basically isn't their fault. The continuous negativity, some of it being highly trivial matters, makes their life harder too.

--

I would love to see and read less negativity all throughout the forum. I would love to see more projects being posted. I would love to see more positive and encouraging interaction throughout all threads but especially regarding projects. I would love to read more specific, straight to the point criticism free of sarcasm and cynicism whenever needed. I would love to see more comparing throughout any advice given instead of a single line: X is better.

Kind regards,
Oliver

I completely agree Oliver. There are plenty of times I have stepped away from this forum because of the negativity. Lately I try not to be part of the complaining and venting and try to promote the projects section. I am also one of the few people I know who doesn’t rubberneck when I drive by an accident. I also hold the door for anyone, say please and thank you and show respect for my elders. It was the way I was raised.  In this age of Internet Trolling (from the Latin, Trollus Insensitivis) it is easy for someone’s words to come across as mean spirited, I try to move on from it when I can. I plan on leaving this world a better place when I am gone and instead of trying to do that in one foul swoop, I do as much as I can every single day.

Glad there are others here who feel the same. Now where did I put that draft of my MFT/CMS spline jig post???

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2037
Re: I am done
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2017, 09:06 PM »
6point and bkr   [big grin] Thanks guys!

Offline Trosey

  • Posts: 84
Re: I am done
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2017, 09:39 PM »
6 POINT......Your post is the best post that I have ever seen on this forum

bk..best reply to the best post possible.

thumbs up.......I ain't in yall's league

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5291
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: I am done
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2017, 10:06 PM »
Cant we all just get along???? [scared]
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 10:08 PM by jobsworth »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: I am done
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2017, 01:34 PM »
@Dovetail65 I very much enjoy your work and respect your frustration. With what you've described I would be done too. If there's another place online I can appreciate your work please PM me those details.
+1

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 881
Re: I am done
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2017, 02:36 PM »
I agree

I've only the domino Xl700 and the OF2200

AND IM DONE WITH FESTOOL

Mick

Offline Phil Beckley

  • Festool Employee
  • *
  • Posts: 1483
  • Ask the question, and get the discussion going...
    • youtube - Festool U.K
Re: I am done
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2017, 03:16 PM »


I would love to see and read less negativity all throughout the forum. I would love to see more projects being posted. I would love to see more positive and encouraging interaction throughout all threads but especially regarding projects. I would love to read more specific, straight to the point criticism free of sarcasm and cynicism whenever needed. I would love to see more comparing throughout any advice given instead of a single line: X is better.

Kind regards,
Oliver
[/quote]


...thank you for adding this Oliver
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 881
Re: I am done
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Ok

I was trying to be funny

I've worked on building sites/workshops for over 30 years and sarcasm/banta is the norm

Mick

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 232
Re: I am done
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2017, 03:39 PM »
@Dovetail65 I very much enjoy your work and respect your frustration. With what you've described I would be done too. If there's another place online I can appreciate your work please PM me those details.
I feel the same and hope to follow your work Dovetail.
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2017, 06:00 PM »


I would love to see and read less negativity all throughout the forum. I would love to see more projects being posted. I would love to see more positive and encouraging interaction throughout all threads but especially regarding projects. I would love to read more specific, straight to the point criticism free of sarcasm and cynicism whenever needed. I would love to see more comparing throughout any advice given instead of a single line: X is better.

Kind regards,
Oliver


...thank you for adding this Oliver
rg
Phil
[/quote]

In a perfect world of rainbows and unicorns we would all like that ideal of less negativity and more positives... But that does not mean that Dovetail's opinions are not valid.?

He has also contributed some stunning examples of inlay work.

If one does not like negativity then addressing causal mechanisms would be one way to ameliorate negativity.

Personally I decide to post more projects, as it is too easy to find non perfection faults in tools.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8644
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2017, 08:44 PM »


I would love to see and read less negativity all throughout the forum. I would love to see more projects being posted. I would love to see more positive and encouraging interaction throughout all threads but especially regarding projects. I would love to read more specific, straight to the point criticism free of sarcasm and cynicism whenever needed. I would love to see more comparing throughout any advice given instead of a single line: X is better.

Kind regards,
Oliver


...thank you for adding this Oliver
rg
Phil

In a perfect world of rainbows and unicorns we would all like that ideal of less negativity and more positives... But that does not mean that Dovetail's opinions are not valid.?

He has also contributed some stunning examples of inlay work.

If one does not like negativity then addressing causal mechanisms would be one way to ameliorate negativity.

Personally I decide to post more projects, as it is too easy to find non perfection faults in tools.
[/quote]


No it certainly does not mean dovetails opinions are not valid.  I think the topic has evolved a bit from the original post to be about the forum state in general.


Seth

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2017, 03:37 AM »
...
No it certainly does not mean dovetails opinions are not valid.  I think the topic has evolved a bit from the original post to be about the forum state in general.


Seth

Well the political state and social states both seem pretty dire.
So the question is whether the forum state is reflecting those general states, or if the forum state is borne out of the Festool 'tool state'.

Fest can only address the tool state, which seems applicable to DoveTail's thread theme.
And as I mentioned earlier... I am leaning towards posting more in the project category to do my part.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 432
Re: I am done
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2017, 05:28 AM »
I would post more projects ie open up if festool does the same. Work to fixing things like, the kapex motor, the bushing adapter issue on the of1400, lack of power for ts55, etc.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2017, 03:41 PM »
Every Festool I own has performed to the level I needed it; mostly better than others. We all buy the tools which work for us. If they don't work for you or don't last then by all means never buy them again. I have always found that when I properly maintain tools they last a long time. Rusty router? Never had one that rusted even a Ryobi. I don't use my tools to make a living so maybe my experience isn't important.
Randy

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 124
Re: I am done
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2017, 04:05 PM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: I am done
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2017, 09:41 PM »
WOW  [eek]

I decided to have a little chill and read a little FOG between connecting flights and BLAM [scared] [scared] [scared]

I wasn’t expecting this. Surely this is a case of a few people feeling that there’s a trace of quality issues possibly creeping into Festool and this didn’t need to collapse into an all in bagging and criticism of specific lines of Festool tools.

Regardless, with sadness, I’m going to go and read something else [sad]




Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2017, 10:37 PM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

I don't get it either, I have videos on my YouTube channel of me ripping hardwoods with the 48 tooth blade.

Tom

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5291
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: I am done
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2017, 11:00 PM »
that could be the issue with the TS55 for some folks not using the right blade. I have not had a issue ripping anything with my 55 Eq. I have a 75 but havent had to use it yet.

Offline RJNeal

  • Posts: 349
Re: I am done
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2017, 11:45 PM »
Thank you six point  you hit the nail on the head. I totally agree with you.
I also appreciate Seth and Peter for their moderation work. A HUGE thankless job
That many won't want.
Rick.
Have you walked your saw today?

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5729
Re: I am done
« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2017, 03:10 AM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

You expect a wood saw to cut everything woody you throw at it to cut it to its cutting depth.

Is that really too much too ask?

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 971
Re: I am done
« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2017, 09:09 AM »
Should we then expect a construction grade portable saw to then give us chip free splinter free absolutely straight perfect cuts? There has to be some allowance for intended usage in the design. Personally as long as I use the proper blade for the job my TS55 has cut everything I need it to without complaining.

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 124
Re: I am done
« Reply #95 on: September 29, 2017, 09:23 AM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

You expect a wood saw to cut everything woody you throw at it to cut it to its cutting depth.

Is that really too much too ask?

Wrong. My table saw will rip 3" thick material, even at 5hp its going to be a slow cut. There are plenty of 3hp table saws that would bog down trying to push 3" oak. Anytime you max out a saws capacity you are going to be putting a lot of strain on the motor, blade etc..I have straight line ripped 6/4 walnut with my TS 55 with the 12 tooth blade. Sure it didn't rip it as fast as if I was cutting 1/2" ply, but that was expected.
Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #96 on: September 29, 2017, 09:31 AM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

You expect a wood saw to cut everything woody you throw at it to cut it to its cutting depth.

Is that really too much too ask?

With the recommend blade the TS-55 will rip 8/4 lumber.

Tom

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2017, 09:45 AM »

Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.


I think you nailed it...I was ripping 5/4 Jatoba with my TS 55. It was very slow going and I noticed it was also burning the wood. I then checked the blade for pitch/resin and also for sharpness. It was sharp as far as I was concerned, however I had an extra new blade so I decided to swap it out anyways. Much to my surprise, all the previous issues disappeared.

So the real question is how can you tell when the blade needs to be sharpened? Are others also using what appears to be a sharp blade on the TS 55 but having poor results? Could be just a blade sharpness issue.  [unsure]

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3596
Re: I am done
« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2017, 10:04 AM »
In my experience, it's almost always a pitch/resin build-up issue.  I now make blade cleaning for all my saws a regular part of my routine, as opposed to just an occasional dreary task i put off.


Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.


I think you nailed it...I was ripping 5/4 Jatoba with my TS 55. It was very slow going and I noticed it was also burning the wood. I then checked the blade for pitch/resin and also for sharpness. It was sharp as far as I was concerned, however I had an extra new blade so I decided to swap it out anyways. Much to my surprise, all the previous issues disappeared.

So the real question is how can you tell when the blade needs to be sharpened? Are others also using what appears to be a sharp blade on the TS 55 but having poor results? Could be just a blade sharpness issue.  [unsure]
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 806
Re: I am done
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2017, 10:44 AM »

Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.


I think you nailed it...I was ripping 5/4 Jatoba with my TS 55. It was very slow going and I noticed it was also burning the wood. I then checked the blade for pitch/resin and also for sharpness. It was sharp as far as I was concerned, however I had an extra new blade so I decided to swap it out anyways. Much to my surprise, all the previous issues disappeared.

So the real question is how can you tell when the blade needs to be sharpened? Are others also using what appears to be a sharp blade on the TS 55 but having poor results? Could be just a blade sharpness issue.  [unsure]

Another potential factor in this case - Jatoba is one of several woods (including Ipe) that has a very high silica content.  It will dull blades, even carbide tipped blades, much more quickly than most woods.  I don't use Jatoba and Ipe unless they are particularly suited to my project, and I try to avoid using my hand planes and chisels with them at all.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 10:47 AM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2017, 11:10 AM »
Jatoba is one of several woods (including Ipe) that has a very high silica content.  It will dull blades, even carbide tipped blades, much more quickly than most woods. 

Thanks for the heads-up...I didn't know that.  [smile]

It makes sense, now that you've mentioned it, because I did a Jatoba border on a maple floor and never experienced so much burned wood in my life.  [huh]

I just thought it was the density of the wood that was causing all of the problems as it's twice as hard as hard maple.  [tongue]

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 806
Re: I am done
« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2017, 12:45 PM »
Jatoba is one of several woods (including Ipe) that has a very high silica content.  It will dull blades, even carbide tipped blades, much more quickly than most woods. 

Thanks for the heads-up...I didn't know that.  [smile]

It makes sense, now that you've mentioned it, because I did a Jatoba border on a maple floor and never experienced so much burned wood in my life.  [huh]

I just thought it was the density of the wood that was causing all of the problems as it's twice as hard as hard maple.  [tongue]

Yeah, the price/hardness combination of Jatoba is pretty impressive for floors.  I have engineered Jatoba flooring and it has performed really well.  As substitutes, Santos Mahogany and Granadillo do pretty well, but they are more expensive and not as readily available.  I used Granadillo for some floor trim and is has held up well.  Goncalo Alves is popular here, but it's another of the high silica woods.

I decided on Massaranduba for my deck rather than Ipe.  Ipe durability is based on chemical factors - high anti-fungal content.  Massaranduba durability is based on the fact that it has a gummy sap that dries in the wood's capillaries as the wood dries, and the dried sap protects the wood fibers from moisture and fungus.  The main problem I've had with it is that it's really hard to power wash it.  The nice thing is that it's so dense that power washing doesn't eat into the wood unless you really crank up the pressure.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5729
Re: I am done
« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2017, 12:55 PM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

You expect a wood saw to cut everything woody you throw at it to cut it to its cutting depth.

Is that really too much too ask?

Wrong. My table saw will rip 3" thick material, even at 5hp its going to be a slow cut. There are plenty of 3hp table saws that would bog down trying to push 3" oak. Anytime you max out a saws capacity you are going to be putting a lot of strain on the motor, blade etc..I have straight line ripped 6/4 walnut with my TS 55 with the 12 tooth blade. Sure it didn't rip it as fast as if I was cutting 1/2" ply, but that was expected.
Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.

Yeah, nice examples of taking it to the extreme, except that the TS55 saw can bog down on 18 mm plywood already. Softwood. Feed it 18 mm pure hardwood and you have to do a really slow cut. Thicker hardwood than that can easily become impossble because the saw just stops.

My Festool CS70 can cut 70 mm hardwood without problems. Of course you take it slow, but it never, ever stops.

I have a DeWalt 65 mm saw that has so much power it goes through anything, the toughest hardwood with nails, as if they weren't there.

And I had an opportunity to use a Mafel 55 mm saw this summer, god what a joy compared to my TS55. It just never lets you down.

Really, the TS55 leaves a lot of room for improvement.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1560
Re: I am done
« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2017, 01:11 PM »
We can discuss cutting techniques and blades ad nauseam here, but when people say TS55 is under powered they mean in relation to competition. The truth is it is the weakest of half a dozen or more 160 mm track saws on the market. Great saw nevertheless.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 01:17 PM by Svar »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2017, 02:04 PM »

Goncalo Alves is popular here, but it's another of the high silica woods.


That's what Smith & Wesson used to use for their hand gun grips, however it got too expensive. [sad]

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2017, 02:05 PM »
I see a lot of posts complaining about the lack of power on the TS55. I don't understand the issue. Its main purpose it to break down sheet goods and has plenty of power to do so. I think there is to much expectations out of this saw. This is not a framing saw, miter saw or a table saw. Sure it can do some of these tasks, but don't expect it to be the same.

You expect a wood saw to cut everything woody you throw at it to cut it to its cutting depth.

Is that really too much too ask?

Wrong. My table saw will rip 3" thick material, even at 5hp its going to be a slow cut. There are plenty of 3hp table saws that would bog down trying to push 3" oak. Anytime you max out a saws capacity you are going to be putting a lot of strain on the motor, blade etc..I have straight line ripped 6/4 walnut with my TS 55 with the 12 tooth blade. Sure it didn't rip it as fast as if I was cutting 1/2" ply, but that was expected.
Sharp and proper blades along with the right feed rate is key to using this saw.

Yeah, nice examples of taking it to the extreme, except that the TS55 saw can bog down on 18 mm plywood already. Softwood. Feed it 18 mm pure hardwood and you have to do a really slow cut. Thicker hardwood than that can easily become impossble because the saw just stops.

My Festool CS70 can cut 70 mm hardwood without problems. Of course you take it slow, but it never, ever stops.

I have a DeWalt 65 mm saw that has so much power it goes through anything, the toughest hardwood with nails, as if they weren't there.

And I had an opportunity to use a Mafel 55 mm saw this summer, god what a joy compared to my TS55. It just never lets you down.

Really, the TS55 leaves a lot of room for improvement.

I have yet to experience any of these issues. If you look at this site I've been told I'm nuts for cutting all the things I cut with it.

Tom

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 124
Re: I am done
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2017, 02:47 PM »
I haven't had these issues either. If you are having issues cutting 18mm ply there definitely is a problem somewhere.
Maybe not pulling enough amps, warped blade? Could just be a bad saw. Could also be user error. I'm willing to bet at least 50% of issues on this forum is related to user error.

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 299
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: I am done
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2017, 03:39 PM »
I can't imagine a normal situation where a TS would have issues cutting through plywood, unless it was somehow constructed of Superman's discarded skin cells.

User error or a bad saw. Not when I can cut through 2" of hard maple in a joining cut.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2017, 07:59 PM »
One can say, that their opinion is that the TS is a nice saw.
The earlier commentary was actually a statement of fact that the TS55 has the lowest power of 1/2 dozen track saws.
Blaming the users skill level is a good example of the "Festool apologist" showing a total denial of any factual evidence.

I thought identity politics was bad... but this is similar as some "identity tool" mental state, where any attack on Festool gear is perceived as an attack on ones person.

At some point the psychology of the situation becomes apparent, as was referenced in the opening post.

:sheep-emoticon:

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 299
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: I am done
« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2017, 09:50 PM »
One can say, that their opinion is that the TS is a nice saw.
The earlier commentary was actually a statement of fact that the TS55 has the lowest power of 1/2 dozen track saws.
Blaming the users skill level is a good example of the "Festool apologist" showing a total denial of any factual evidence.

I thought identity politics was bad... but this is similar as some "identity tool" mental state, where any attack on Festool gear is perceived as an attack on ones person.

At some point the psychology of the situation becomes apparent, as was referenced in the opening post.

:sheep-emoticon:

Factual evidence is that so many operators of the same saw can perform a simple task that it renders the inability to do said task an aberration. It may be underpowered compared to others, but cutting through sheet goods would be a basic function of the tool.

It's not being an apologist to deduce that something is very wrong with a track saw that struggles to perform the basic function of cutting a 19mm or 3/4" sheet of plywood. Something that very few others have been seen complaining about.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: I am done
« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2017, 10:08 PM »

Factual evidence is that so many operators of the same saw can perform a simple task that it renders the inability to do said task an aberration. It may be underpowered compared to others, but cutting through sheet goods would be a basic function of the tool.

It's not being an apologist to deduce that something is very wrong with a track saw that struggles to perform the basic function of cutting a 19mm or 3/4" sheet of plywood. Something that very few others have been seen complaining about.

I feel this thread is potentially going a fair way off track (pun intended) but I do feel a need to defend the TS55. With the correct (and sharp) blade I have had no issue with the TS55 and the TSC55. Getting a long even and clean cut from gently coaxing the saw along is  the saw's sweet spot. If you want a brutal saw for rough work with a multipurpose blade in it, buy something like a Hitachi/Dewalt/etc and save the blade in your TS55 for it's intended tasks ... over time this WILL be a cost effective approach!

Oz has some of the hardest timbers on the planet and there's a lot I'd never consider waving near the TS55 .. I look at the tool for it's intended purpose and appreciate the job it does in that space.

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 299
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: I am done
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2017, 10:19 PM »

Factual evidence is that so many operators of the same saw can perform a simple task that it renders the inability to do said task an aberration. It may be underpowered compared to others, but cutting through sheet goods would be a basic function of the tool.

It's not being an apologist to deduce that something is very wrong with a track saw that struggles to perform the basic function of cutting a 19mm or 3/4" sheet of plywood. Something that very few others have been seen complaining about.

I feel this thread is potentially going a fair way off track (pun intended) but I do feel a need to defend the TS55. With the correct (and sharp) blade I have had no issue with the TS55 and the TSC55. Getting a long even and clean cut from gently coaxing the saw along is  the saw's sweet spot. If you want a brutal saw for rough work with a multipurpose blade in it, buy something like a Hitachi/Dewalt/etc and save the blade in your TS55 for it's intended tasks ... over time this WILL be a cost effective approach!

Oz has some of the hardest timbers on the planet and there's a lot I'd never consider waving near the TS55 .. I look at the tool for it's intended purpose and appreciate the job it does in that space.

Indeed. I have a couple other regular circular saws I keep around for more rough work.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2017, 10:28 PM »
...
Oz has some of the hardest timbers on the planet and there's a lot I'd never consider waving near the TS55 .. I look at the tool for it's intended purpose and appreciate the job it does in that space.

I did not think that the woods were that hard/tough, but I defer to your expertise, which seems to be what I have found too.
They are not hard like maple is hard, but more 'tough'... like trying to cut kevlar after cutting fibreglass.
What is it the physical feature that makes these woods so bloody hard to cut?

---

Maybe that is why even with my stunningly good MT55 I have been surprised [eek] when I have stalled the saw in a few cuts?
...Then I just revert to feeding it a bit slower when that happens.

I imagine having only 2/3rds of the power would make this a bit of a more tricky feed-rate dance, or one gets a second saw in the form of a TS75?

So what I basically have is a TS75 level of torque in a '55 sized package.  8)

This is not a QC issue with the TS55 , but more of a design decision...
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 10:30 PM by Holmz »

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: I am done
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2017, 10:49 PM »
So what I basically have is a TS75 level of torque in a '55 sized package.  8)

This is not a QC issue with the TS55 , but more of a design decision...

I can imagine people getting a bit frustrated when their only option is their TS55 and they reach the limits of it's performance envelope. Too often the blade is the factor (correct blade, sharp, clean ...) and not the saw's power.

Of all the Festool hand held circular saws I could complain about from Festool (I do have most them all) it would be the power of the HKC55 .. it's barely more powerful than a cordless Hitachi that I either gave or threw away a few years ago. Thankfully the HK85 is NOT a disappointment and the 3 FSK rails are excellent.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2017, 12:03 AM »
...
I can imagine people getting a bit frustrated when their only option is their TS55 and they reach the limits of it's performance envelope. Too often the blade is the factor (correct blade, sharp, clean ...) and not the saw's power.
...

Well the Haus_Boss had some mosaics that were bonded onto cement board



They overhung the board on three sides (as per the tiling shop recomendation), and I cut them post facto.
So I set the saw on the lowest RPM and used an Olshun blade to score the tiles (at all different heights) most of the way through with the rail clamped to the mosaiced top.
Then used some nippers to finish them off, and a grinder to put a bevel on for a grout line.

The dust was billowing out as well as sparks and tremendous racket. The saw and blade were protesting like it was being sent through the gates of heck.
I did have the Festool concrete blade but did not want to use it as it was expensive [embarassed]
At least Jarrah does not throw out sparks when it is cut!

The Olshun blade looked a bit ragged, but when I took it off and really checked it, it seemed pretty sharp with my finger test.
I ordered another Olshun blade as well as one of their non-ferris blades.

(It was also the same blade I used to make scoring cuts in 1/4"(6-mm) copper tubing, so I suspect that blade does not like its lot in life.)

I ended up putting that same blade back onto the saw and cut some 4/4 Jarrah afterwards for speaker box edging.  [big grin]
The cuts seemed OK - and I basically did it out of curiosity.

I will change the blade out and put in my small stack of "Blades for sharpening".

So yeah - maybe one would have less frustration using the right blade, but the extra power seemed to be useful.
If the saw made me cups of coffee, then it would be just about perfect. [cool]

The rain is falling today... First time since Jan, and the Footy grand final (Aus Superbowl) happens in an hour or two...
(Plus I woke up this morning)
So it is not a bad day so far.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8644
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2017, 12:06 AM »
       

    Peoples personal experiences are factual information. And user error does not necessarily mean that a persons skill level is being challenged. Using the wrong blade is an example of simply not realizing what the blade was designed to cut. It doesn't mean the person does not have the needed skill or is stupid. It is simply something they did not know, for whatever reason, that the blade supplied with the saw is designed for sheet goods and cross cuts.

   There have been many, many posts on this forum from people asking about having trouble cutting whatever wood with the TS55. Very , very frequently it is because they are making a rip cut in solid wood with the 48 tooth blade that comes with the saw. So they come to FOG for help and information and to learn. And this forum has traditionally been a great source for that knowledge.

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   It needs to be kept in mind that there are a lot of variables and relative terms involved in this discussion...... type of wood, condition of wood, type of blade, sharpness of blade, depth of cut, type of cut, length of cut, bogging down, cutting slow, feed rate, number of cuts in how much time, blowing through the cut, etc, etc. That can all add up to a lot of differing perception.

   In light of all those variables ............

      My TS55 has no trouble cutting any type of 3/4 sheet good I have ever used. If a TS55 is having a problem with that, then there is something wrong with the tool.

Seth

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: I am done
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2017, 03:08 AM »
Re TS55 - yes the blade choice is significant. For ripping other than sheet goods, I use a panther blade.



In order - laminated Aust Hardwood, 19mm hardwood ply, pine flooring (but here as a door), and edge trimming a Merbu deck.

Not wanting to open another debate re 110 V, but this saw is 240V. But as in Nth America it is 1200 watt. Sure it could have more power but it does what I want from it.

_________

As to am 'I done'! No! But I certainly research the whole available   market before I purchase. This has more to do with Festool Aust, than necessarily the tools they distribute [See 'One for the Aussies'].

As an example of alternatives, I believe Makita, Milwaukee, AEG, Bosch Blue and Metabo all make drills equal or better than the Festool PDC. But I love my Festool CXS and C15 for cabinet type work.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 07:57 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 148
Re: I am done
« Reply #117 on: September 30, 2017, 07:17 AM »
Last year I replaced my Dewalt track saw with the 55 to go with a "system". The dewalt made excellent jointer grade cuts in anything I threw at it. It did so effortlessly without thinking.

I was instantly underwhelmed with the 55's power, and the length of time it took to make similar cuts. The dewalt is a larger saw with an excellent soft start motor, but not unwieldy at all. I haven't touched a festool 75, but I assume the dewalt is between the two festools in size and weight.

With that said I do love the system - with an mft setup in my shop I seldom use my Hammer sliding table saw for cross cuts, because of the setup time it takes to reinstall and square the crosscut fence on the Hammer. I can instantly do high quality crosscuts on the mft, as well as infinite cuts at any angle quickly and easily.

I haven't tried other brands 55mm saws, but it sounds like some have more power for their size.

Makita makes excellent motors, as does Dewalt. I generally have been unimpressed with Festool motors. My limited use of a Kapex gave me a poor impression (evrything about it feels flimsy), as does my 55. Even my cxs sounds and feels weak compared to a $139 dewalt 12 volt drill.

Every time my brother in law comes around with my dewalt in his truck I miss it. Because of kapexgate and all the fuss I have begun investigating mafell & metabo as alternatives to festool, and am intrigued.

Doubt that I will throw out the baby with the bathwater, and start all over again. I really love the system. Perhaps I'll sell the festool 55 for a 75, or even a mafell (because it will work with my festool tracks).

I guess I just got spoiled dropping the dewalt on the track and cutting without paying attention. It spoiled me. Now I have to concentrate on my feed rate to get similar quality cuts (EVEN WITH A NEW CORRECT BLADE).

Different brands of motors have differences in their power per size or weight. For whatever reason festool has chosen not to over spec or over engineer theirs to do a job. They seem to focus on features and cleverness instead of robust power output (except for the OF2200 which is a beast).

Let's try to stop blaming the user, and use a little common sense...............
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5291
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: I am done
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2017, 09:43 AM »
Ya know,

I keeping looking at the classified folder here, I dont see those TS55s being listed, same with the Kapex and other tools.

Im betting there are a lot of people like myself that will like to take them off yer hands if ya price them right

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5291
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: I am done
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2017, 09:59 AM »
Ya know,
There was a time about 20 years ago when I bought my delta 1.5 hp tilt arbor contractors saw. There were simular discussion about that saw not having enough power. Similar to this TS55 conversations were having.You need a 3hp saw they'd say. It cant rip 6/4 or 8/4 maple theyd say. I didnt have that problem and kept that saw till about 4 years ago when I realized I can do everything with a TS55.

Suggestion to youse. FT also makes a TS75 which has a lot more power and debth of cut.

I keeping looking at the classified folder here, I dont see those TS55s being listed, same with the Kapex and other tools.

Im betting there are a lot of people like myself that will like to take them off yer hands if ya price them right

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #120 on: September 30, 2017, 08:32 PM »
It's posts like these that give a new user like me pause buying into such an expensive tool brand. Hopefully things can turn around between Dovetail and erock (one of the brands biggest supporters) seemingly being fed up I'm second guessing things.

My reason for buying into the brand is to be able to work in a smaller more portable fashion and indoors if I need to. If I had a big workshop with all the bells and whistles I probably wouldn't be as motivated.

Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.

Not all Festool are the best tools on the market. Some, like the Domino, CT's, MFT, and Vacsys are high quality and either are or were unique (my opinion; others apparently disagree).

Before any new buyer of Festool takes this thread to heart, they should read all the other posts which support the high quality and great performance of these tools. Will some tools fail? Sure. All companies have some percentage of tools that fail. Is there a higher failure rate than in the past? While I don't know that, others apparently do, but I'm not sure where they obtained the stats to make this comment.

All I'm saying is that, for me, Festool is like any other company when buying tools. I buy and use their tools because they are high quality and, for me, they appear to perform well when I use them. If they stop performing well, I will stop buying their tools and, for now, I have all the tools I can use.

If you don't feel tools perform well for you, no matter what company makes them, don't buy their tools anymore. All I can say is my experience with Festool, whether the Domino, sanders, the TS55, MFT, VacSys, routers, CT, has been exceptional; much better than most other tool brands. Take it for what it's worth.
Randy

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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #121 on: September 30, 2017, 09:12 PM »
...
Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.
...

If you read his opening post, it is possible that it was more like frustration and venting.
It seems conceptually hard post the criticism on the topic in a positive way.

Usually the term for this is constructive criticism, if the feedback is "Taken on-board" and used to improve things.

If the message is not well received, then going for discrediting the messenger is a common strategy.
Why would you choose to step into that role?
(Even if it was the intent, it seems a of a risk as being perceived as judgemental)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:15 PM by Holmz »

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: I am done
« Reply #122 on: September 30, 2017, 09:55 PM »
Maybe Festool should make some giant light gray foam blocks, shaped like a systainer, with a giant Festool label in lime green printed on them, so frustrated customers can kick them around, to burn off some cortisol, for when Festool frustrates them.

At least this way you wouldn't risk damaging a plastic box that now costs $70 or more to replace.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2017, 10:22 AM »
...
Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.
...

If you read his opening post, it is possible that it was more like frustration and venting.
It seems conceptually hard post the criticism on the topic in a positive way.

Usually the term for this is constructive criticism, if the feedback is "Taken on-board" and used to improve things.

If the message is not well received, then going for discrediting the messenger is a common strategy.
Why would you choose to step into that role?
(Even if it was the intent, it seems a of a risk as being perceived as judgemental)
None of it seemed constructive nor was the ensuing posts by other constructive. My experience with Festool has be overwhelmingly positive. It seems others have not. OK. If your tools don't work have them fixed under warranty. If they don't get fixed or they are out of warranty then don't buy them anymore if you don't feel they performed as you expected. Very simple. Just don't make it seem as if it's the whole company or everyone's tools which are bad. They aren't. It's not what the FOG is supposed to be and why people are down on the FOG; at least one reason.
Randy

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5729
Re: I am done
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2017, 10:37 AM »
My experience with the tools is positive too.

I mean, sometimes there's a tool that's a bit less, but in general I find they are all very good performing and very durable. I like my Festools and will keep using them.

But ..... the plug-it cord is a complete failure, and it seems to be the final straw that triggered Dovetail to start this rant, and I must agree with him on this, the plug-it cord is simply too weak and not durable. They should really redesign this and make it better. I really dislike having to buy a new cord or socket over and over again.

And ..... I do dislike Festool's mentality as a company. The service? People here rave about it, but my experience with Festool here in Holland leaves me with a very foul taste in my mouth. Every single contact out of 5 was a negative experience.

I have spend many thousands of euros on Festools, accessories and consumables over the last 9 years, but I haven't bought anything Festool for the last 2 years. Except for some spare parts, and of course, the ever failing plug-it cords. I keep the tools going because they are made very well, but I prefer not to have to do anything with the company again or spend my money on them.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8644
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: I am done
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2017, 10:49 AM »
Recently in the USA, as is shown by posts on FOG, there have been some service issues . But prior to that the USA service has been stellar! I know that the service in other countries  is not necessarily the same as in the USA either currently or previously.

Seth

Offline BigfootBuilder

  • Posts: 74
    • California Sustainable Builders
Re: I am done
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2017, 12:51 PM »
Sure there have been some positive posts and some negative posts, and some neutral peacekeeping posts. I think this simply reflects both our personal experiences of festool use, and likely our personal approaches to life and inner psychological workings.

We all need to be able to feel however we want to feel about whatever we want to feel it about. Every post should not be positive! If they were I wouldn't participate in any discussions here (not that I do much but I wanna weigh in too here). The last issue I was having with the (absolutely deplorable) Carvex, I was venting my many frustrations and the last person to comment on the thread chastised me for being so disappointed and taking my disappointments to the FOG. Where else should I take them? Festool wouldn't answer or return my multiple messages about the issue I was having with the Carvex. Thread in question: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/carvex-psb-420-ebq-reviewthoughts-(not-impressed)/msg511972/#msg511972

Festool has changed my whole approach to woodworking. I'm pretty thankful for that. The DE system generally works so well (except what the eff is up with the new alien maze hose attachment detail? I want nothing to do with that, just let me slip it in, or over - with ribs - and we're good). I've quickly come to realize, however, that not everything they make is high quality, and that better options exist out there that you simply have to decide if the issues are worth the benefits. No? Find something else. Yes? Deal with the issues. I've been pretty disappointed with many things about festool in my short year and a half of ownership (I'm no stranger to woodworking/construction though), and will really be researching my best options before taking out my wallet. They will not be getting much more of my money either because I don't feel the quality deserves the price tag, I think some things are gimmicky (CARVEX!) and lacking the foundations for the flair, and I have not gotten any phone support when I've called. I think they largely are not contractor/professional grade especially for the high costs, with some exceptions.

It was said either in this thread or another that festool users are a picky bitchy bunch to satisfy. I wouldn't even argue with that, but I would say that we're allowed to be picky and expect full performance and support for the THOUSANDS of dollars many of us have invested. Again, I know some of you have had positive support, and many negative. Mine had been negative and so that is my perspective.

I thank the OP for opening this up because I for one get tired of some of the brand defensiveness that can show up around here, it's no attack on anyone's identity for someone having poor experiences with these tools. It I think is largely meant to be constructive feedback knowing that festool operates this forum, so we hope to be heard in our criticisms. But then we get no reciprocity back from them, and that might leave some with the feeling of yes, "I am done."

Offline Dan-

  • Posts: 32
Re: I am done
« Reply #127 on: October 04, 2017, 09:19 PM »
Let's address the erock thing.

But first, about me. At this point, I own the following: 1400 router (like), 1010 router (ok), ts55 (just ripped some 8/4 cherry), ct36 (great), mfs (makes dust collection actually work with ts55), cms router table thing (sometimes wish i'd gone incra route), cxs drill (the key here is the lowest torque setting, which most seem to miss), 2015 US installers kit (lol centrotec), df500 domino (awesome), carvex (waste of money), ets125 (better than you'd think for finishing), pro5 (some day i'll use this),  RTS (some days wish i'd bought the DTS, but mostly like it), cleaning thingy with metal broom (oddly enough, this is my most used festool), plus some extra systainers. I might be forgetting something, but I'm not going to walk outside to check. I also own a full set of Milwaukee M12 Fuel tools. If I needed 18v power, I'd go M18 Fuel. Whatever. (This is the way to go for cordless tools; it's a true system. I hate that my CXS battery is only useful for the CXS.) I have a Laguna bandsaw and Laguna PFlux3 dust collector. Also a bunch of Veritas/LV stuff.

Back to erock...
He made really great videos on the level of Bryce's (spelling?). His set of frameless cabinet videos are almost on the same level as Paul Sellers' workbench instructions. erock stopped posting right around the time that the Wood Whisperer moved over to more mass market tools. The reason the Wood Whisperer guy mentioned, quite politely, was that Festool had made a choice to not pay for "brand ambassadors." If you ever read about the business side of social media, you'd know that there are a ton of women (and probably men) who pretend to love certain products on instragram, etc, in return for "patronage." Hopefully you can connect the dots here.

In regard to the forum, it seems like contribution has dropped significantly, which is odd considering that Festool adoption is probably up over a year or two ago. Part of the problem is clearly Festool's neglect, as even Stickies mentioning North American launches remain up despite being years out of date. Leaving those outdated posts up shows that Festool does not care about "broken windows." Other questions go unanswered, even when they are not complaints about product quality. This neglect communicates quite clearly that Festool does not care. If this is not the case, then maybe it should change. The weird thing is that other forums are not picking up the slack. It's not like Sawmill Creek, where many members also post, has anything like FOG. There's clearly an opportunity and an upside to improving FOG, even to bringing it back to where it was a few years back. I probably wouldn't have bought so much stuff hadn't this forum existed then.

Dan

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: I am done
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2017, 04:41 PM »
If Dovetial is unhappy with his purchases, he has the right to be unhappy with them to to post his review.  As long as it’s a honest account from someone who owns the tools, it’s valuable information.

I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.
 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2017, 06:10 PM »
...
I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.

1) Buyer beware.
2) the warrenty has nothing to do with the price.

Even if a tool did have a 10 year warrenty and was expensive, would not make it a good tool. (Nor a bad tool.)
So while a warrenty may help, a warrenty does not make the tool's overall design better.

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 614
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: I am done
« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2017, 06:17 PM »
...
I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.

1) Buyer beware.
2) the warrenty has nothing to do with the price.

Even if a tool did have a 10 year warrenty and was expensive, would not make it a good tool. (Nor a bad tool.)
So while a warrenty may help, a warrenty does not make the tool's overall design better.

Real life example = KIA
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2017, 06:18 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.
Randy

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: I am done
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2017, 07:08 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!


Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: I am done
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2017, 07:31 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!




Yes some lower quality power tool brands do have good warranties. However that warranty relies upon the relatively lower use by the home owner when compared to enthusiasts and professionals.

'How often do you think you will use this drill Sir?' 'About once a month'. 'And what for?' ''Oh, hanging things, making flat packs, that sort of thing.' 'Then I suggest you look at the features of these two brands'. 'Let's look at this one for starters'.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:33 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2017, 07:31 PM »
I didn't throw home woodworkers into one category. You just took it that way. I said it "might" not be worth it to others. Might not. I know a number for whom that is true. And some of them are home woodworkers. Some are tradesmen. It's worth it to me. I have a lot of expensive tools; many Festool. I love all of them and the fact that, when I get into my shop and work, I can always rely on them, including the Festool. I have never had a problem with a Festool tool that wasn't related to something I didn't do quite right and have learned from that.

I was reacting to a 10-year warranty suggestion. . .

Plus, I see posts all the time from people in other countries who don't appear to have the same variety of choices in tools as well as other things. Not across the board, but I have many more choices than I need in the US.
Randy

Offline Zebt

  • Posts: 53
Re: I am done
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2017, 09:44 PM »
To address the main concern of the OP.
Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day :)

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2017, 11:20 PM »
While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception.

Here’s a photo of a Milwaukee drill purchased in 1948 by my father. He used it for over 45 years on a daily basis as he was a “tin bender” or rather in today’s vernacular an HVAC installer.

It’s had 5 sets of brushes installed over its lifetime. That’s it...no new armatures, bearings or field coils, it still works today as it should despite its anemic 2.6 amp power draw.
 
I have lots of Milwaukee tools that are 25-35 years old and they function flawlessly. Ten years of service should not be the maximum anticipated limit of usefulness, rather it should be the minimum anticipated limit of usefulness.

For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

Think about all these Kapex issues...if these were backed up with an 8 year warranty, the problems would all be background noise.

In this day and age when we expect 20 years of service from our refrigerator and central air conditioner that’s used 24/7, why is 3 years service life acceptable from a miter saw that’s used 8/5?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 12:02 AM by Cheese »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2017, 12:04 AM »
While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception.

Here’s a photo of a Milwaukee drill purchased in 1948 by my father. He used it for over 45 years on a daily basis as he was a “tin bender” or rather in today’s vernacular an HVAC installer.

It’s had 5 sets of brushes installed over its lifetime. That’s it...no new armatures, bearings or field coils, it still works today as it should despite its anemic 2.6 amp power draw.
 
I have lots of Milwaukee tools that are 25-35 years old and they function flawlessly. Ten years of service should not be the maximum anticipated limit of usefulness, rather it should be the minimum anticipated limit of usefulness.

For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

Think about all these Kapex issues...if these were backed up with an 8 year warranty, the problems would all be background noise.

In this day and age when we expect 20 years of service from our refrigerator and central air conditioner that’s used 24/7, why is 3 years service life acceptable from a miter saw that’s used 8/5?
Guess you haven't bought a refrigerator, washer, or dryer recently. None of those appliances is built to last 20 years. You can expect it, but you won't get it. We bought the number one rated washer and dryer brand. The belt on the dryer lasted 5 1/2 years and I was told that we were lucky since most only last 3 - 4 years. Then the washer is front loading and has "shock absorbers" supporting the drum on 4 corners. They also wore out after 5 1/2 years and again I was told most are replaced in less time than that. We don't use these appliances very heavily. When you buy a refrigerator these days, the usual expected life is around 8 - 10 years partly because the compressor kicks on and off more to keep the temp constant and use less energy. I'm not saying this is right. In fact, it's wrong in my mind. However, it is that way I've found out the hard way.

I had a Makita plunge router I bought in the 70's which was still working and mounted in an old router table. I sold it for the router table and replaced it with a non-Festool alternative because, while I already had an OF1400, I wouldn't even consider burying a high quality, dustless router like that in a table. So I buy what I think I need and there are definitely high quality, less expensive, non-Festool options out there for many tools. So, for me, Festool doesn't exclusively have me as a customer and never will.

I'm not sure why these threads about Festool quality and service go on and on. They are just a company who makes tools; generally speaking higher end, high quality tools with a good warranty and, in my experience, good service. However, some of their tools aren't innovative, the best on the market, and certainly not less expensive. No company will survive if their tools don't last, their service deteriorates, or they just don't innovate as well as other companies. Companies like Dewalt, Makita, and Bosch have gone in the direction of making more reasonably priced, generally solid tools with great battery systems. That endears them to the people in this world who use their tools everyday on the job. And it should. I wouldn't think of replacing my Dewalt cordless drill/drivers with a Festool. It doesn't make sense for me as the Dewalt are very usable, high performance, and much less expensive for my use in a home wood shop.

For me, it's about personal preference for whatever I feel I need. I did embark on a Festool buying spree over the past several years, but it started because of what I wanted to do with my shop; get rid of a table saw and use the TS55/MFT combo in place of it. Didn't work out that way, but in the process I found unique, high performing, essentially dustless tools from Festool that I felt, and still feel, are superior to any others out there; again for my use. I have no problems with their sanders, CT, TS55, MFT, VacSys, Dominos, and OF1400. I love their sanders but have at least 2 I could get along without right now. Yet I wouldn't trade any of these tools. They work well, perform well, make woodworking essentially dustless, and a couple are so unique I couldn't buy them from any other manufacturer. If I had the problems that appear in these posts and Festool didn't fix them as alleged in the posts, I wouldn't ever buy another and, in fact, would attempt to sell them and buy other brands.

Enough said, except Festool doesn't have a corner on the market for power tools, especially in the US. They will live or die based on their innovation, service, quality, warranties, availabiity, and usability just like any other company. They owe nothing to their user public, including information about performance and failure, except production of the high quality tools and availability of the great warranty and service that made them what they are today. If that disappears, they won't make it and their expansion will be for nothing. Let them do what they do and consumers will do what they do best; buy what products work and perform well for them.
Randy

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5768
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2017, 12:11 AM »
 [dead horse]

 [doh]

Looked for the bang head against wall emoji, couldn't find it.

Tom

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5158
Re: I am done
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2017, 12:49 AM »

Guess you haven't bought a refrigerator, washer, or dryer recently.


Wrong on both counts. The previous refrigerator we purchased was a Kitchenaid that we used for 25 years...then we purchased a new refrigerator and delivered the old one to a neighbors garage...that was 4 years ago and as of this evening it is still popping out ice cubes and dispensing cold water.

On the washer/dryer front it’s a well known fact that the average life expectancy is only 5-7 years. We just purchased another set 6 years after the other pair went toes-up.

I never said a washer/dryer would last 20 years...I said a central AC unit would be expected to last 20 years.

Think about it, if one were to take this same thought pattern further, it would then become normal to replace your furnace or your water heater every 3-4 years.

I’ll still stand by my previous statement, there’s no excuse for a mitre saw being used in a reasonable manner to not continue to function for at least 10-15 years.  [popcorn]

OR LONGER...and that’s without beating the [dead horse]
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:10 AM by Cheese »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5729
Re: I am done
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2017, 02:15 AM »
For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

When I just got into Festool in 2008 they would advertise everywhere that their tools were so expensive, compared to others, because they were built to last you 25 years. A few years later I noticed that slogan was quietly retired.

So they used to do a lot of boasting indeed. I wonder if they came to realise that though 25 years can be done it is hard to reach that with every tool in every circumstance, or if they changed their design goals towards longevity.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: I am done
« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2017, 04:47 AM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2017, 06:30 AM »
... That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

Maybe that was true back before... When America was great.

The whole of the "What should Festool make thread" is full of NAINA, and other manufacturers tools that are available in 230v worldwide.

We could start with cars... Other than maybe Telsa, Corvettes, and maybe some Dodges, most poepleeither have a Toyota, Subaru or Honda, or yearn for a European car.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: I am done
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2017, 09:10 AM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!

The home wood worker spends good money.  We have to be more practical about how we spend our money.  The Bosch Miter was that does 90% of what the Kapex does makes more sense for the home shop.  Not spending $2000 on Miter Saw means you have the $2000 to spend on the DF 700 Domino that will have a greater impact on what projects you can work on.

 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 971
Re: I am done
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2017, 09:33 AM »
Being an old duffer I can make these comments.  ;)
I feel sorry in some ways for the younger men getting started in life with tools. I think back to some of my original purchases when I was either lucky or made good decisions! Yea I bought some junk and learned but occasionally bought some outstanding tools. I think back to my original router - a Dewalt DW610 I believe. It is now 30 years old and still runs like a top. I still have my original Milwaukee hole saw - 30 years old, looks like crap, makes lots of gear noise since day one, incredible torque, runs perfect. My original Milwaukee Sawzall - built like a tank, about 25 years old, has been used in horrific dusty dirty areas and still works like new. I have several other old power tools like these. When I go to the store and fondle the new Chinese Milwaukee tools I just can’t bring myself to purchase them. I am sure there are some improvements but the physical quality is nothing like it used to be. Gone are the days of lifetime tools.

I now own several Festool products but not the Kapex. I am impressed with the design and engineering and they met my needs and seemed worthy of their price to me. This is a tough manufacturing world and competition is tough. Virtually all the tool makers have track saws now although their prices are very similar to Festool’s. Festool had some great sanders but Bosch and others make equivalent sanders now. I wish Festool could come out with other intelligent tools like they used to.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 633
Re: I am done
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2017, 12:26 PM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Agree on the power tools. Many of my stationary and portable tools are well north of 10 years old.

Spending to save is generally a terrible idea unless you just want to spend money to replace working items and justify it with whatever the savings are. I have never heard this reason with a washer and dryer, but have with cars, HVAC systems and windows.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: I am done
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2017, 01:32 PM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Agree on the power tools. Many of my stationary and portable tools are well north of 10 years old.

Spending to save is generally a terrible idea unless you just want to spend money to replace working items and justify it with whatever the savings are. I have never heard this reason with a washer and dryer, but have with cars, HVAC systems and windows.

A lot of these decsions are ego based rather than practical. It’s about bragging to your buddy or a colleague about this $2000 miter saw, $1400 jig or how you bought the best of the best.

I look at the quality of the projects people are making.  I don’t care how shinny your Tools are or how much money you spent buying Saw X and Tool Y.

Some people more enamoured with the logo on their tool than they are with the quality of the table they built.  Some of the most impressive furnite design were built 70 -300 years ago without the benefit of fancy logos and brand names.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1820
Re: I am done
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2017, 02:03 PM »
[dead horse]

 [doh]

Looked for the bang head against wall emoji, couldn't find it.

Tom

Agree completely. Is that cow? Never heard of beating a dead cow, but it works also.
Randy

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11600
Re: I am done
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2017, 02:34 PM »
It appears that after about three weeks of posts that have gotten further away from the original posters topic that there isn't much hope of it going back that way.

So, perhaps that means that it is a good time to lock this thread.

I am sure that Festool will glean (or has gleaned) for any valuable information and insights by this time.

Peter Halle - Moderator