Author Topic: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat  (Read 1968 times)

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Offline Kroban3

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Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« on: August 21, 2018, 12:10 AM »
Has anyone ever had the tables of their Kapex ground flat?  The tables on my Kapex are nowhere near coplanar/flat and those angles show up in cut material as gaps.  I can't see any other fix for this other than having a machine shop grind it flat.  I sent this saw in to Festool twice and they returned it twice without fixing it. 

I do realize this is something I should have checked before the 30-day trial expired but, this being a garage/shop tool and not my primary tool, I didn't get around to it.  It's still under warranty but apparently this is not covered under the Festool warranty.

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Offline glass1

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2018, 05:47 AM »
Just do a search on this topic. Known kapex issue. Why should Festool fix it when the apologists declare that it does not affect their cuts?

Offline Steve1

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2018, 07:47 AM »
Are the tables steel/iron or a light alloy?   Few aluminum alloys grind well, but a machine shop could take a light skim cut to clean-up the surface.     Unlikely they will want to take apart your expensive saw --- you would have to do that.   

One thing to check is how the mis-match changes as you change the angle.    If the rotation axis is not square to the table top, that won't be fixed by machining the surface, (but probably will be much improved).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 07:55 AM by Steve1 »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2018, 07:59 AM »
That doesn’t sound like Festool.  Did they refuse to fix it or did they say that it was within their tolerances but perhaps not yours?  Every tool manufacturer makes tools to their own tolerances.  Have you reached out to them since?

By the way I seem to remember that the base is a magnesium alloy.

Peter

Offline ear3

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2018, 08:25 AM »
Indeed.

 
One thing to check is how the mis-match changes as you change the angle.    If the rotation axis is not square to the table top, that won't be fixed by machining the surface, (but probably will be much improved).
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Offline Lettusbee

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2018, 08:44 AM »
There is a video on YouTube by insider carpentry, where he machines the base of his dewalt
Saw with a festool sanded, to solve this problem. 
My Dewalt saw has the same issue as well.  Very aggravating.

Online Cheese

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2018, 11:56 AM »

By the way I seem to remember that the base is a magnesium alloy.


Correct...magnesium it is, and that has its own issues.  [eek]  I found that out when I turned 15" diameter magnesium American Racing Wheels on a lathe.

https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/developing-a-safer-way-to-machine-magnesium

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2018, 12:20 PM »
Although I have not encountered any cutting issues with my Kapex, this post intrigued me about the flatness of the table. For the record, I have never measured the table flatness of any of my machines (tablesaw, drill press, planer, etc.). I go by the results of the cuts on the wood to determine if my machines are properly tuned or not. I am least concerned about compliance with machine specs. (I don't even pay attention to what the specs. are!)

So I took a BCTW straight edge to the Kapex, and here are the results:

The turntable (centre part) - flat: could not slip in a 0.0015" feeler gauge (Lee Valley) under it
The table on the right side - flat: could not slip in 0.0015" under it
The table on the left side - out of flatness (relative to the rest of the table) by two pieces of paper, or 0.008" as confirmed by the feeler gauge.

Is the out-of-flatness within tolerance? Anyone know?

If it is not, I am still happy with its cutting results (as confirmed by my previous three-mitre joint project).

I suspect that since the centre table is dead flat and I always (95%+ of the time) use the hold-down clamp (on the left side) holding the stock down on the centre portion, the out-of-flatness becomes less an issue.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 12:38 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2018, 12:56 PM »
Just do a search on this topic. Known kapex issue. Why should Festool fix it when the apologists declare that it does not affect their cuts?

I shared my findings in the above post. Is mine the same issue others have reported? If so, then indeed the "out-of-flatness" issue has not affected my Kapex's performance.

I do my share of handcut dovetails and most workpieces (cross cuts) are prepared on the Kapex. If square/plumb cuts (on the end grain) are an issue with the Kapex, they will show up when I put together the joint.

My Kapex was purchased in early 2015.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 01:00 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 02:29 PM »
Do you use the hold-down clamp?

Is your centre part flat? If so, use the hold-down clamp when you cut on the right side to see if it makes a difference.

If you have taken measurements of your table with a feeler gauge, how do they compare to mine? Mine seems to be out on the left (which is the side I put my stock), but not on the right and centre. I wonder if I cut with the stock placed on the right, will I see any cutting difference?

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 03:14 PM »
Besides, how would that change the angle?

As I stated in my post as a conjecture, if the stock is held tight down on the flat portion of the table (turntable in my case), the cut will be straight down and square on the workpiece, even if one side of the table is slightly off (0.008" in my case). That is just my suspicion as I have been able to cut dead square even though my latest measurement found the "issue" with the left side of my table. "Dead square" as defined by checking the stock with one of my Lee Valley precision squares.

By the way, I am not arguing about the use of the hold-down clamp or not as we all work differently and for different purposes. I use it most of the time, and I am wondering if that might be a factor in the cutting accuracy given the tolerance of the saw.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 03:17 PM by ChuckM »

Online Cheese

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 03:17 PM »
Well just for giggles, I decided to take feeler gauges to my Kapex like Chuck did. I wanted to find the ares of maximum deviation across the fence area. The straight edge does sit flat on the far LH side of the turntable, however after that point there is a gap everywhere along the straight edge.

Turntable, LH = .003”
Turntable, RH = .006”
LH side = .011”
RH side = .016”

Having made the measurements, I will say I’m surprised because these inconsistencies have NOT created one problem for me when using the Kapex. My mitres are spot on and the joints are perpendicular. This saw is still the most accurate and consistent mitre saw I’ve owned. Dunno 🤷‍♂️ just another data point I guess.  [smile]

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 03:19 PM »
What year is your saw? Not saying it is a factor, but being curious....

Hold on, I removed the ZCI before I took my measurements, because that was the factory setting, to be fair.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 03:21 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 03:40 PM »
My year question was directed at Cheese.

I have not done any cuts with a stock held vertically (I assume you are doing baseboard or moulding pieces).  I will try cuts like that at the next opportunity, for which the hold-down clamp is probably not of use.

For the third time? I can feel your frustrations.

Online Cheese

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 03:56 PM »
Hey Chuck my Kapex was manufactured 2/2015. I also measured my ZCI and it’s proud of the table by .005”-.007”.

Offline Birdhunter

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  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 03:58 PM »
I get a perfect (per a Woodpecker square) cut on my Kapex with the wood held against the left fence. I get almost perfect, but acceptable, cuts with the wood against the right fence. I’ve tried to align the Kapex to get perfect cuts on both sides and gave up in utter frustration. I’ve done all the testing without the zero clearance fences.

I am resigned to using the left fence. Anyway, it’s more comfortable for me to hold the wood with my left hand and push the saw head with my right hand.

If I want extremely accurate cuts, I’ll use my Industrial Sawstop tablesaw. With it, I get perfect cuts every time.
Birdhunter

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 04:11 PM »
It was manufactured in 2017.

Putting the feeler guage away, have you tried cutting a piece vertically?

"Cutting a 3/4" x 4 1/2" piece of poplar vertically to the left of the blade it is just about a perfect 90.  Making no adjustments on the saw and sliding that same piece of wood to the right of the blade it cuts at 89.7°."

The proof is in the pudding.  There is no possible way for me to get square cuts with this Kapex, short of disengaging the bevel detent a manually micro adjusting it.  Or I'll have to only cut on the left side.

I'm preparing to send it in a 3rd time.  If this saw needs to spend the rest of its warranty period on a UPS truck so be it.  Hopefully UPS will damage it so badly that they pay for a new properly functioning Kapex.

So, you start a thread about how to grind a table flat but then you are "preparing to send it in"?  Sorry to be crass here, but something just doesn't smell right and I suspect that the thread and posts here are just part of some pre-determined plan so to speak.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Peter

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 04:22 PM »
That smells great.

And now that this thread has come to a conclusion I will lock it.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2018, 03:34 PM »
 

    Regardless of the particular circumstances that this topic was locked under, it was locked for the basic reason that Kroban3 and Festool need to work this out. The saw is going back a third time.  We can hope there is a satisfactory resolution but until then there is not much to add beyond mudslinging.


Seth

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex - Grinding Tables Flat
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 12:15 AM »
Just for the record................ Kroban3 deleted all of his own posts from this topic, not the moderators.


Seth