Author Topic: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?  (Read 60017 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rmoursund

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 09:23 PM »
My saw arrived with difficult miter movement and the scraping sound, and remained that way for several hours.  At first I was concerned that I might be damaging the saw because of the sound and difficulity of movement, however after several hours of use, it improved to the point that it was completely normal.  It made this return in stages.  It became easier to operate in the area from +/- 30 degrees, then from 50 to 45 degrees and finally throughout the whole range: 50 -60 degrees.  It worked perfectly the remainder of the day, only to partially return the next day.  When it started acting up again it was for the most part on the outside of the scale, primarily on the far right side of the scale.  Also, it quickly corrected itself again after moving the miter three or four times and as of now is again working correctly.
I live in the Houston area and yes it is hot and humid.  After delivery it sat outside in 97 degree heat and was brought into my air conditioned shop.  As mentioned above, after several hours of use it started working normally.  The next day (today), the problem momentarily return, but it had be in use several hours in this same air conditioned enviorment.  I personally don't think the weather is affecting the saw, but if it is, I think we have a very bad design problem that must be addressed.  I think its' fair to say we should expect equipment of this caliber to operate in 100 degree weather.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 09:25 PM »
Hello Brice,


   For what it is worth, I just went out in my garage and checked the "condition" of my miter saw...  The temperature in there is about 80+-...  At first, the miter angle moved very freely...  I swung it all the way from the leftmost position (50 degrees) to the rightmost position (60 degrees) maybe ten times...  After about the 6th or 7th time, it started to bind again...  I looked at the "spring plate" and other than the fact that it rest on the miter scale, I do not see any obvious signs of it burring into the metal...

   One thing I wanted to point out is that the scraping/grinding on both my machine and the one at Woodcraft was most audible at the leftmost end of the travel (i.e., 50 degrees)...  I am being shipped a new spring plate and hope to have it by Friday...  One thing I do not understand is if it is the spring plate, why is it not binding more-or-less uniformly across the entire length of the miter scale.  It clearly seems to bind the most at the extreme ends of the travel...

   I will install and report back what the results are...



Matt

What about the humidity guys?


The spring plate clamps to the miter scale which is bolted to the tops of three posts in the base.
Apparently the posts at the ends of your miter scale are slightly shorter, or have less paint on them, than the center post.
Also, if there is any vertical bend in the miter plate the clearance between the spring plate and miter scale will change.




Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 07:53 AM »
The scraping got worse the more I attempted to swing the saw.

This is the same thing I am experiencing. At first I thought I was getting the grinding on the top of the miter scale but it is on the bottom after taking a closer look. I have mine in the basement so the temp & humidity is pretty consistent. When I do the first miter of the day works as it should, after some swings of the saw it gets worst to the point that I start to move the MFT800. Would manufacturer date have anything to do with it?

Norm


Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 09:08 AM »
Norm, there is a date on the sticker on the saw's motor housing and on the underside of the base. The most important date is on the underside of the rotating part of the base. The dates on my saw are 2/08 on the base, 4/08 on the motor and the rotating part of the base is 3/08.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 09:35 AM »

      Can anyone figure out if this issue is going to have an affect on the accuracy of the saw?  I know we haven't determined whether or not and/or how much the rotating table is changing from the stationary table, but couldn't it change the accuracy?  When I get my new one today, I'm going to check clearances right out of the box and take some pictures, then I can monitor for changes if/when it starts grinding too.

Chris...

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 09:46 AM »
If it comes down to returning the saw (I ordered mine online) will Festool send out a new one without waiting to receive the defective unit, or does it depend on the retailer?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 09:58 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 10:12 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...

Let's not speculate about why this is happening.

But whatever it is, inactivity is one of the reasons I'm considering closing the "Contact Festool" board and moving those posts into the "general" category.  I mentioned it in this discussion.

Stay in touch,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Taos

  • Posts: 227
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 11:06 AM »


      Looks like we may have lost Festools direct relationship with users on this site.  Out of curiosity I checked status, and either they are just really busy or got tired of all the stuff and decided to bow out.  They went to being pretty active and involved to what now, "Lurkers"? 

Christian
Last Post 6/25/08

Shane
Last Post 6/13/08

Chris...


Hi Chris,
Festool won't leave you hanging, trust me. They are extremely busy and actively pursuing a fix to the turntable. In light of this it is still the best miter saw by leaps and bounds.
Did you call Festool service yet? 888-337-8600 or 800-554-8741.

I know we have all been hot and bothered lately with the Kapex and the forum but rest assured customer service at Festool is FAR superior to any other vendor I have done business with.

Spike

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 11:21 AM »
Several people have mentioned that there is more scraping at the far left or far right
(or both) of the miter table's travel.

Is that scraping of the underside of the miter scale or the top of the scale?

Most of the scraping issues seem to be associated with the spring plate scraping
the underside of the scale so if your scraping is on the top (the clamp tab) please say so.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 11:42 AM by Michael Kellough »

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 11:30 AM »
Spike,

     I know they won't leave us hanging (for too long).  I've already done as Festool advised and it just didn't work for me.  It might for others.  I get my replacement today.  I really don't think they know yet what the issue is, or don't have a real fix in the pipe yet.  I feel the cam plate replacement is a stop gap.  They work great and then that happens.  Rick C's note says they changed it because " Festool was concerned that the miter lock would be too loose on some saws ".  huh?  You don't go and make manufacturing changes because you think something "would" be an issue.  You change because something "is" an issue and you have data to back it up.  Has someone had any luck finding issues people had across the pond?  There certainly must have been something that caused a change to this part.  Things aren't usually out of tolerance.  They are designed and manufactured within certain spec's.  Festool can manufacture within a .001-.002 tolerance all day long.  Something is changing on the saws during use.  What is it? 

Chris...

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 11:55 AM »
Good Morning,
This is clearly an issue of concern, and it would be to everyone's advantage to get an official word on this, i.e., something from Festool.

The Kapex is a major new tool release, so I assume Festool is interested in communicating with customers about it.  Well, this is the time and place to do so!  How about it: is someone from Festool listening?

In the meantime, anyone experiencing this issue should report it here.  Also, please report the conditions in which you see the problem (particular usage, temperature, how long the saw was used before this problem arose, etc).

Stay in touch,
Matthew

PS: I do not own a Kapex, so I cannot report either way about the issue.  My only concern is making sure there is an explanation, and a resolution.
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 12:06 PM »
Just a reminder that the official word is that you should report a problem with a new tool to your dealer and/or Festool right away before making any modifications.

After that, this is a great place to post your experiences and the conditions when issues occurred.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 01:36 PM »
Just a reminder that the official word is that you should report a problem with a new tool to your dealer and/or Festool right away before making any modifications.

After that, this is a great place to post your experiences and the conditions when issues occurred.

Just to be clear: when I said, "official word," I meant an explanation from Festool and their position on this issue.  No one should suggest making modifications to a power tool without technical knowledge from Festool.  Hence, the need for the official word from the company!

If Festool has been helping people through service calls, it would benefit all of us if they shared with the forum what they are telling people to do.  Tht way, they reach more people.

Stay in touch,
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 742
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 01:41 PM »
this problem has been brought up in web forums in Australia and else ware. it seems to be a fault not unique to the USA.

Offline honeydokreg

  • Posts: 1674
    • honeydokreg@aol.com     email address
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2008, 04:11 PM »
I had posted a post about my post being deleted and removed bucause of my comment.  that WAS MY ERROR.  for those of you few who saw it before I realized it was my mistake, I apoligize.  I had posted a comment in another thread about the kapex, and thought  it was in this thread and had been deleted.  my fault!

sorry for the error.  I will not make another mistake again, just will make the cabinet smaller if I cut it short!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 08:04 AM »
I just received a call from the Festool rep. He said that it's a 10 min. fix. He will be replacing a plate that is out of tolerance and will sand down any burrs on the miter scale on Monday. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

Anybody have this done yet? Did it work?

Norm

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 10:35 AM »
I just received a call from the Festool rep. He said that it's a 10 min. fix. He will be replacing a plate that is out of tolerance and will sand down any burrs on the miter scale on Monday. Hopefully this fixes the problem.

Anybody have this done yet? Did it work?

Norm

Norm, the OP tried that fix and it didn't work for him, let us know how it works for you.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 11:04 AM »
This morning my saw is getting worse, it appears to be an issue with the clamping tab, the part that Chris removed the powder coating from. Here's a picture of the of the spring plate, you can see some wear but not much on the end of plate.
10062-0

Here's a pic of the miter scale, the top is wearing.
10064-1
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Roger Savatteri

  • Posts: 506
    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 11:51 AM »

Just out of curiostiy, as a temporary fix in the meantime.......has anyone with these issues tried some dry lube on the rubbing surfaces?

such as this......http://www.aerotechdesigns.com/whitelightninglube.htm


Los Angeles, California

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2008, 11:52 AM »
Brice,

Thanks for pointing that out for me. I know I read it at some point just didn't remember the outcome. Same thing is happening to my saw in picture 2. I am going to call the Festool rep. and tell him to swap out saws instead of the plates.

Norm

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2008, 12:10 PM »

Just out of curiostiy, as a temporary fix in the meantime.......has anyone with these issues tried some dry lube on the rubbing surfaces?

such as this......http://www.aerotechdesigns.com/whitelightninglube.htm




Roger, lube isn't recommended because the parts that are scraping are the same parts that lock the miter, lube could cause the miter setting to slip during use.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3662
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2008, 01:14 PM »
I do not have a Kapex, nor have i had a chance to look one ver other than a very short fooling around with John Lucas's saw on Sunday.  As I have been reading thru all of the above posts, the only clue i can come up with (as I said, I have no experience with the saw) is the possibility that humidity is causing the Nylatron to swell. 

I have been to Germany several times. My wife and i usually go there during my slow time in mid summer.  Last week in July to second or third week in august.  It has been real hot there at times, but no matter how hot it has been, i have never been bothered by humidity.  In my experience, it sure does not get as humid there as it does here in Connecticut. 

My question is: Is Festool checking out this problem only from their factory in Stuttgart.  Stuttgart is very close the the area where I have visited.  Maybe they should try it out up around Hamburg or Frankfort, some place closer to the ocean where maybe it does get humid.  Or bring their testing over here.

Just a question.  Not considering it to be a solution.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2008, 01:20 PM »
I just replaced the spring plate on mine and I still have scraping although the movement isn't as coarse.  There was a lot of wear on the end of the spring plate, the picture doesn't really do it justice.  Brice, I have some wear on the scale as well although I don't think it's as bad as yours.  When I look underneath the saw at the new spring plate I don't see any clearance.  I don't know how this new plate will be any different from the old one.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2008, 01:53 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

Offline rnt80

  • Posts: 953
    • Agape Wood Design
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2008, 01:58 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2008, 02:14 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.

This brings up another question, why doesn't this fix work on every saw? Do you reach a point of no return after X amount of use with the "bad" spring plate?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2008, 02:47 PM »
I have refrained from posting on this because I felt I had nothing to add that wasn't pure speculation. Having said that, I am now going to engage in speculation. I do not think this is a design flaw. I think it is the result of unanticipated variability in a component. If it is the spring plate, and most evidence points in that direction, it could be caused from something as simple as a batch of plates placed upside down in a heat treat funace. Perhaps there is an instruction in the manufacturing process that was not followed. Perhaps there was no instruction to orient parts a certain way and this batch happens to the first ones done differently since day one, and now it is manifesting itself as a problem. Perhaps the problem doesn't occur until these same plates have been flexed a number of times and they begin to change shape. Perhaps none of these things have a darn thing to do with the real problem and it is yet undiscovered. Please notice that I used the word perhaps a lot because this is speculation.

I think the most important issues are how Festool solves the problem and how we decide, as a group, we want to be part of that solution. The evidence exists that they want to solve it quickly and with as little inconvenience for us as possible. I think we should concentrate on communicating as clearly as possible what we have done, what has worked, what has failed, ant the circumstances under which it has failed. Festool can then distill all of the information we can provide and get to the bottom of it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 02:48 PM by greg mann »
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2008, 04:03 PM »
I do not have a Kapex, nor have i had a chance to look one ver other than a very short fooling around with John Lucas's saw on Sunday.  As I have been reading thru all of the above posts, the only clue i can come up with (as I said, I have no experience with the saw) is the possibility that humidity is causing the Nylatron to swell. 

I have been to Germany several times. My wife and i usually go there during my slow time in mid summer.  Last week in July to second or third week in august.  It has been real hot there at times, but no matter how hot it has been, i have never been bothered by humidity.  In my experience, it sure does not get as humid there as it does here in Connecticut. 

My question is: Is Festool checking out this problem only from their factory in Stuttgart.  Stuttgart is very close the the area where I have visited.  Maybe they should try it out up around Hamburg or Frankfort, some place closer to the ocean where maybe it does get humid.  Or bring their testing over here.

Just a question.  Not considering it to be a solution.

Tinker

Tinker it was me that suggested something like nylatron could cause such an intermittent loss of clearance in the miter table, if it is indeed related to climate.

However, that is pure speculation on my part. I have no idea if there is any nylatron anywhere in the Kapex.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2008, 04:51 PM »
Just got off the phone with John the Festool rep. He insists the new plate will solve the problem. He said it has to do with the bend in the plate. We shall see Monday. Hopefully, it does not get stuck over the weekend.

Norm

He can insist away all he wants.  The new plate didn't completely solve the problem on my saw.  I forgot to extend kudos to Festool for overnighting the plate to me.  It was my first opportunity to experience customer service throught Festool and they shined.

This brings up another question, why doesn't this fix work on every saw? Do you reach a point of no return after X amount of use with the "bad" spring plate?

So, the spring plate is stamped and presumably heat treated.
To maintain the proper clearance the plate needs to be the right thickness to start with.
The roller groove needs to be the right depth and or the right depth in relation to the surface of the plate.
The stamping process should not bend the plate or should bend it consistently.
The heat treating should not distort the plate or should do so in a consistent way as Greg pointed out.

Finally, there needs to be a foolproof test to determine if the part meets specs since there is no machining involved to ensure that it is a certain size.

If you can't make it perfect make it adjustable, is what I was taught.