Author Topic: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?  (Read 60000 times)

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Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2008, 05:00 PM »
Here' my take on this. If I am missing something please correct me, but everyone is focused on the black plate attached by 2 torx head screws. But on the sliding table, underneath is a tang that is molded into it that the plate reacts against  when locked. Mine has no clearance as far as I can see. Problem #1 maybe tang is too long. Or #2, look under the miter scale, there are what I would call tits ( one of Carlins favorite "cute" words) , that holds the scale above the rest of that part of the casting. Perhaps these are too high and need to be shaved down.  Of course this is all speculation. Thoughts?

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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2008, 06:22 PM »
Tony, that's what I think, if you look at the pictures I posted this morning you'll see the "clamping tab" or what you call the tang is the issue, at least in part. The tab is scraping on the miter flange and the bottom where the "spring plate" contacts doesn't seen to be causing the problem.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2008, 06:34 PM »
Hey guys,


   I got home from work today and there was a Festool box sitting at my doorstep...  It was the much awaited Spring plate...  I installed it about 1/2 an hour ago...  Just before installing it, I noticed that the dreaded grinding was present...  After installing it, the miter angle can now be adjusted as one would expect.  With out being too scientific, lets just say that the adjustment seems to be more free-flowing than it was even when I first took the SCMS out of the box...

   I am not yet willing to declare it a "total-success" as the unit worked pretty good when I originally started using the saw for the first time...  What I can say with absolute certainty is that it is significantly better than it was just before replacing the spring plate...  I will be using the saw a good bit this weekend (in the sun again) and will have a better feel for if it is corrected or not by Sunday evening...

   Thanks Festool for getting me the part (and throwing in a Torx screwdriver to boot)...



Matt

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2008, 06:39 PM »
Brice, it is certainly possible the upper tang is contributing, but since it is not a part that moves relative to the miter plate (at least up and down) it doesn't seem to explain how this problem comes and goes. That sounds more like a moving part problem, hence the flat plate underneath. Or, most l;ikely it is a lack of total clearance between the two when in an unclamped state and the relative position of the miter plate to either. I know my logic is rather circular, sorry. A thought. If it is the upper tang, there should be some amount of undesirable drag with the bottom plate totally removed. What do you think?

Mark's post seems to point toward the plate. I do not have the problem so I am going to pull the plate and take some precise measurements of the relationship of the plate mounting surface to the locking surface. If my saw starts binding I will pull the plate and remeasure it. Nothing like before and after info.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2008, 07:15 PM »
Is this problem only on the USA version?
Has anyone from other countries have this problem?
How do i get the new part if i need it?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Tony M

  • Posts: 61
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2008, 07:33 PM »
Just another piece of info, adding to my last post, I did pull the black plate off ( spring tab I think) and once I manipulated the table past the detents , I removed the lever assembly and still had scraping. Also, is gray the actual color of the material or is it powdercoated? It seems to me it is integral.

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2008, 08:11 PM »
Is this problem only on the USA version?
Has anyone from other countries have this problem?
How do i get the new part if i need it?

According to tallgrass, in reply #44 of this discussion, it has come up before in Australia, and other places.  I searched but couldn't find the references.  Maybe someone can find a link and we can see what they deduced in prior discussions.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2008, 08:15 PM »
Greg, I'm at a total lose here, I don't know why the problem is intermittent. As Michael said it could be an issue with a nylatron part (like part # 130 or 131) swelling in the humidity. (I haven't taken my saw completely apart so I don't know what material those parts are).

Master, Matthew, I don't remember reading about this issue from over seas users. It may have come up, if it was an issue over seas it wasn't a wide spread problem are I would remember reading about it.

The good news about this problem is that we don't have to figure it out, Festool is taking care of the problem saws.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline honeydokreg

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2008, 08:46 PM »
i set mine up today (my second one) in the direct sunlight all day.  the temp was 85-90 here in the charlotte area.  had no problem it worked great.   worked like a festool should.

so I will see again tomorrow it is supposed to be a little hotter.
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
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youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 741
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2008, 08:47 PM »
I have dug around on one of the forums i read and have dug up a couple of examples, that might be on point. thoughts? i have not done n exhaustive survey but there were a lot of teething problems on its release.



http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=56689

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=55941

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2008, 09:10 PM »
Tall, I just checked out your links. They don't directly refer to this same issue. Only one person mentioned a grinding sound but this is the same guy that had 10 units?? I do remember this guy and I believe he was talking about the bevel making the grinding sound (I also remember no one really believed he had 10 bad saws).

So, if you have an overseas model Kapex did you have any issues like the ones we are having here?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7355
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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2008, 09:11 PM »
i set mine up today (my second one) in the direct sunlight all day.  the temp was 85-90 here in the charlotte area.  had no problem it worked great.   worked like a festool should.

so I will see again tomorrow it is supposed to be a little hotter.

Thanks Kreg, keep us posted.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Taos

  • Posts: 227
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2008, 09:44 PM »
It was 84 Kreg...not 85-90  :P

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 741
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2008, 10:18 PM »
i live in s.cal usa. i just read other forums.  i seem to remember the topic i just have waded through all the threads to find out the exact analog. i will try too dig it up though. i am waitng for the fix before i buy mine. i can not wait.

Offline wombat

  • Posts: 1
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2008, 11:01 PM »
Hi, everyone I just returned my Kapex to Woodcraft Baltimore and exchanged it.  I've had the same problems with the scraping and almost broke my arm trying to turn the miter.  It started of working fine and at different times of the day it went from fairly firm movement to grinding.  I got them to take the new one out of the box at the store and tried it there. It worked perfect, It got a little tighter when I got it home.  I just went out and tested it with a few turns left and right,  and its  ok at the moment,  76 degrees  11PM and fairly humid.  After reading these blogs and noticing it getting a little tighter this afternoon I don't think the problem is solved.

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2008, 12:08 AM »
I just went out and checked my Kapex.  It is midnight and the temp in the shop was 78 degrees...  Movement is still silkie smooth after replacing the Spring Plate this afternoon...  So far so good - boy I hope that fixed the issue once and for all...

Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?



Matt

Offline honeydokreg

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2008, 04:10 AM »
I just went out and checked my Kapex.  It is midnight and the temp in the shop was 78 degrees...  Movement is still silkie smooth after replacing the Spring Plate this afternoon...  So far so good - boy I hope that fixed the issue once and for all...

Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?



Matt

a poll would not do any good if your saw does not work right.  a lot of saws have issues, and festool is working very had to solve the problem and to make it right so your saw will be up to festool's standards.  how this happened, who knows, it happened and believe me lot's of money is at stake and it will be solved.  after all festools are designed to solve problems.  now it is the other way around we are helping festool solve a tool problem!

and if the poll says 5% 20% or 35% it does not matter,  becuase again if your saw does not work right, it must be made right!
pay attention to the details.... they make the difference... festool does
www.builtinking.com
youtube channel:  builtinsbykreg

Offline Matthew Schenker

  • Posts: 2619
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2008, 08:31 AM »
Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?

If you want, you can start a new discussion with a poll, then I can combine the two discussions.  But I don't want to start the poll myself.  It's up to you.
Matthew
FOG Designer and Creator

Offline Dan Rush

  • Posts: 570
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2008, 09:24 AM »
My Kapex has gone down also.  After a few hours work yesterday, all seemed good.  I was actually using it in the sun on a fairly humid day.  I loaded it up and went home, confident I dodged a bullet.  This morning (about 75 f ) the saw is frozen, can't even move it.  Interesting, it seems just the opposite of what some of the other guys are experiencing.

For what's worth, Dan

Offline vteknical

  • Festool Employee
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  • Posts: 160
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2008, 10:05 AM »
I keep hearing Festool is working very hard from everybody except Festool themselves? 

They probably are working on the situation but let's not forget changes have to be worked in conjunction with Germany.
Currently much of Europe is on their 30 day holiday which really slows an already slow process. 






Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3563
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2008, 10:12 AM »
My Kapex has gone down also.  After a few hours work yesterday, all seemed good.  [b]I was actually using it in the sun on a fairly humid day.  I loaded it up and went home[/b], confident I dodged a bullet.  This morning (about 75 f ) the saw is frozen, can't even move it.  Interesting, it seems just the opposite of what some of the other guys are experiencing.

For what's worth, Dan

Dan, it was hot and humid when you locked the miter table down for transport?

I wonder if paint on the bottom of the clamp tab is stuck to the miter scale?

I wonder if there IS any paint on the bottom of the clamp tab  ;)

Do you see any movement of the spring plate when you move the locking level up and down?

Offline Roger Savatteri

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    • www.savatteridesigns.com
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2008, 10:36 AM »
Matthew, I have a suggestion.  I have read every post since I started the parent thread about this problem (Played with the Kapex Today - thoughts/questions...)...  So, I am really curious as to just how many people have this issue...  Can you set up a pole so we can track how bad this really is?
If you want, you can start a new discussion with a poll, then I can combine the two discussions.  But I don't want to start the poll myself.  It's up to you.
Matthew


I feel Matthew is right in not starting a poll about this Kapex issue.

If there were 15 Kapex's not working or 150 not working, I'm sure Festool would still find a fix/redesign for it.

And running a poll would just add more anxiety to a thread already obviously stating the issues.

I'm sure Festool would want this to be behind them as quickly as possible.

Returns of such a high ticket item has to start adding up sooner than later.

Roger


« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 10:46 AM by Roger Savatteri »
Los Angeles, California

Offline Matt Antonucci

  • Posts: 76
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2008, 10:43 AM »
My only reason for suggesting a poll was to try and see how pervasive this is...  Someone suggested this is only happening on a small number of saws...  But from this thread, it seems like it is more than just a small number...  I also thought it would be nice to know the number of people that are satisfied with its performance, not just those that were unsatisfied...  Finally, I thought it would be good to know how many people have tried the suggested fix and if it worked or not...

I read here that two people have tried the fix only to have the problem return...  As for myself, I did replace the Spring Plate yesterday evening and the saw's movement now swings "silky" smooth (it was still working great early this morning).  I have not had it in the sun yet, but should get that chance this weekend...  I just wanted to say that I have heard of this legendary  "customer service"  that Festool is known for but before this week, have never had the opportunity to experience it for myself...  I now see what it is all about.  Good luck trying to get anything even close to that level of service from the manufactures of most brands sold at the local Depot!  I can definitely see that Festool is taking this issue very seriously as I have been in contact with several of their tech's over the course of the last few days.  They appear to be very concerned with getting to the bottom of this issue and they assure me they will make this right.  I suspect we will hear something official soon as to what the issue is/was...


Matt

Offline Dan Rush

  • Posts: 570
  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2008, 10:43 AM »
Michael,

I was just out in the shop looking and poking around the saw.  (keep in mind I'm a pretty good carpenter, not so good at mechanics!!!)  

Yes, It was still hot and humid when I packed up last night.  Absolutely no problems.  I see no paint on the parts that seem to be grinding.  The (I think) spring plate (#115 in manual) is heavily grooved at the point where it guides against the indent plate. (#118).

Again, I see no paint or paint scrapings, I think this must be something more.  

Dan

Offline Dan Rush

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  • Trim carpenter
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2008, 10:57 AM »
My dealer, Berland's House of Tools,( Yea gotta plug 'em)  just called to have me come in and exchange the saw.  So if there is anything else I can look at to help, mail fast.  Sorry, not set up for pics.

Have to love the service from Festool and their dealers!

Dan

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2008, 11:00 AM »
Add me to the list of Kapex owner's experiencing this problem. I've only had mine a week and it was fine up until this morning. It has been hot an humid here (low 90's) this week for what it's worth. I just called Festool and they're sending me out a new plate. Let's hope this is the fix for this problem.

Offline hamsey

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2008, 11:13 AM »
When I contacted my dealer about the problem, he knew about the problem. Said he had 3 to 4 saws that went bad. That is when Jogn at Festool contacted me. Tried to use the saw last night and almost tipped the table over getting it from45? to 0? had to use that much force. I do know that when aluminum burrs together it  is very difficult to separate it. I will not be using the saw over the weekend and will wait for the fix (hopefully) Monday.

Norm

Offline Frank Snyder

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2008, 11:25 AM »
Trying my hand at figuring out this problem...

When releasing the tension by raising the handle up, I found that if I raise the lever up all the way, it appears to over ride the indent and the plate bites the miter gauge causing it to scrape and seize. If I back it off (downwards just a bit) so that the roller mates with the indent, the plate releases and I can move the gauge again. Can anyone else with this problem try this? It helps if you get down below the saw so you can see when the roller is properly nested in its indent.

The handle and roller arm appears to be made of plastic (Nylatron?). Is it possible that the Nylatron is flexing and not maintaining the tension necessary to keep the plate from biting when it shouldn't? Could the warmth and humidity be causing the Nylatron to react this way?

Offline Dan Rush

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Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2008, 11:43 AM »
Frank,

I just replicated your experiment and came to the same result as you.  Don't know the cause and effect, but it may help when in the field and need just a couple of cuts to go home.

To all, not sure I buy into the heat/humidity thing.  We've had guys in the sun, in basements, and in between.  Sounds almost like a too - tight tolerance compounded by wear.  Just a thought.

Dan
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:46 AM by Dan Rush »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3563
Re: Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2008, 11:44 AM »
Michael,

I was just out in the shop looking and poking around the saw.  (keep in mind I'm a pretty good carpenter, not so good at mechanics!!!)  

Yes, It was still hot and humid when I packed up last night.  Absolutely no problems.  I see no paint on the parts that seem to be grinding.  The (I think) spring plate (#115 in manual) is heavily grooved at the point where it guides against the indent plate. (#118).

Again, I see no paint or paint scrapings, I think this must be something more.  

Dan

Dan, if your spring plate is scored you at least need to replace it.

The spring plate is the black piston rod shaped piece of (carbon spring?) steel that pushes up against the bottom of the miter scale thereby clamping the miter scale to the clamp tab above the miter scale. When you pull the lock lever up to unlock the miter table it pushes the end of the spring plate down. It should be harder than the stainless steel miter scale so it shouldn't be scratched methinks. More likely the miter scale is scratched.