Author Topic: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.  (Read 57708 times)

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Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« on: January 15, 2017, 07:03 PM »

In Aust. the KS60 has been released in two versions - basic and set.

The set version includes a LED Spotlight, Smart Bevel AND Adapter Feet to increase its height so a SYS1 can support timber material to be cut.

It seems to me that the ability to make the turntable cutting base level with a Sys 1 should have been integrated within the original design and engineering brief, not as an accessory adaptor. And now having made this 'stuff up' Festool expect us to pay more for an 'accessory'.

In Aust. the basic version is A$1099 and the Set A$1350. To add the Adaptor feet to the basic version costs A$65. In the scheme of things regarding Festool prices, not a significant outlay, but again this feature should have been within the original design.

http://www.festool.com.au/epages/tooltechnic.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/tooltechnic/Products/500121
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 07:51 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline sheperd80

  • Posts: 121
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 03:06 PM »
Just as the mft should come with angle braces. Typical festool

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1113
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 04:54 PM »
Glad I have zero interest in owning one.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline peterboy

  • Posts: 24
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 05:24 PM »
In a design studio far far away..... I bet the conversation went something like this " we could make it the same height as a sys 1"...."naw don't bother, they'll pay extra for that"

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 05:24 PM »
Just as the mft should come with angle braces. Typical festool

Don't be stupid! Sir should be happy to pay an extra $80 to stop his $700 workbench from wobbling!

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 06:39 PM »
In a design studio far far away..... I bet the conversation went something like this " we could make it the same height as a sys 1"...."naw don't bother, they'll pay extra for that"

I feel you are right @peterboy or it's just incompetence. I do not own a Kapex 120, so I was surprised to discover via some research that the Sys 1 can be used as a material support when using a K120.  [eek]

So dear Festool KS60 Designers, what's the story here!?  [mad]

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/kapex-questions-28887/msg284013/#msg284013

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 06:42 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5706
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 06:46 PM »
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package. Why on earth should they absolutely -have to- make the base the same height as a systainer?

But it would have been nicer had they included the feet with the saw. It's just 2 dollars worth of plastic. But there you have Festool's rip off marketing methods.

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 911
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 07:42 PM »
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package.

 There is only a 3.7kg difference between the new Ks60 and the older bigger Ks120 also the new saw is fitted with a 1200 watt motor compared to the original 1600 watt, seems a lot of money for what is essentially a Kapex light.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 07:51 PM »
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package. Why on earth should they absolutely -have to- make the base the same height as a systainer



But it would have been nicer had they included the feet with the saw. It's just 2 dollars worth of plastic. But there you have Festool's rip off marketing methods.


Uh........because it's a system
because they claim to only release a tool with improvements
because they claim to have better engineering
because they're other saw is made that way




Nicer  [doh]

Why use an add on to solve an issue that could have been eliminated during design and manufacturing ?
Weight , my foot. A second year industrial design student could easily give you a few ways to increase the height without adding weight. 
This seems like a case of the product manager deciding that the band aid for the product's shortcomings should be paid for by the customer.

Now, the customer pays in the end anyway - but it never ceases to amaze me how Festool nickel and dimes users in haphazard and inconsistent way. 

I've raised this point before - don't they beta test this stuff in the field before release?  And if so who's testing it ?  It would appear that the faithful are not consulted.

And honestly is anyone going to buy one of these in the 110v version given its big brother's motor issues.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 08:01 PM by antss »

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 08:41 PM »
"He can now simply take a Systainer . . . . ."
Around 1.25 mins in to the video.   [mad]
And here are the design team!



Despite all this, I am looking to purchase one. It was through analysing my needs, future tasks etc,. that led me to ask , "Hang on a minute, what is going on here with regard to the Systainer images '.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 08:52 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 09:48 PM »
I think the bigger mistake was designing the base to be narrower, thus requiring an interface piece between the saw and the existing UG cart. Even worse is that you then need to either replace the scales on your extension wings, or purchase new ones for this specific saw that have the adjusted scales. A well designed 'system' would have to play together much nicer.

I get it that there are compromises with design choices. But, when it is evident that a lot of thinking has gone into some parts of the system, some things then come as a surprise when they appear to be lacking.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 09:57 PM »
So I read the gripe and instantly thought "...won't align to a Systainer 2 either then and there's no adapter for that, ?!"  Then I remembered that I don't care because that wasn't how I intended to incorporate it into MY system.  "Maybe Festool gets me".

Just make it AINA, don't care.




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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1524
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2017, 10:35 PM »
So I read the gripe and instantly thought "...won't align to a Systainer 2 either then and there's no adapter for that, ?!
That was my thought exactly. It also does not align with sys mini or many other random objects for that matter...

Just because its a system does not mean Festool has to give away its components for free. Plenty of people wouldn't care about alignment with sys2 and might prefer a bare tool, why should they bear the cost of accessories they won't use? OK, let's say Festool included all the accessories and sells only one configuration at a "deluxe" price. Wouldn't you rater have a choice?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 12:51 PM by Svar »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2017, 11:02 PM »
"He can now simply take a Systainer . . . . ."
Around 1.25 mins in to the video.   [mad]
And here are the design team!


..........he can - if he purchases the deluxe model or orders spare parts.  Both additional cost - that should already be included in the "system" and the base price

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 431
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 05:13 AM »
More importantly why do you need a 1000 dollar Saw to install flooring ?

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 45
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2017, 05:28 AM »
Why would you want to use a  $100 systainer to balance lengths of timber on any way .A couple of off cuts clamped to the bench work just fine.  8)

Offline NL-mikkla

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2017, 07:31 AM »
wow, lot of pessimistic reactions to a new nice machine.
I'm getting fed up with these threads, it's not nice to be here anymore.
It's not designed specific for you, it's for the whole world (lol except NAINA sorry about that)
If you think of it that way, than just not buy the thing...

Off to hopefully read something nice in the projects section!

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 431
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2017, 12:50 PM »
My point was if you can afford 1000 for a saw what's 65 for some feet. This Saw sure looks cute.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 382
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2017, 02:22 PM »
Kin ell, so all you really practical people can't manage to bung a bit of plywood (or whatever size works) underneath the saw to get to the right height?

Or even (Gasp/shock/horror) just make up a support out of wood like everyone else has been doing for years?

I reckon that its made as small as possible so it fits in small spaces, like my tool safe in the van, plus its not a big numb thing to carry like the Kapex 120.



Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 116
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2017, 03:32 PM »
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package. Why on earth should they absolutely -have to- make the base the same height as a systainer?

What?????

Put the kool aid down, you have had enough

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5706
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2017, 03:48 PM »
There is only a 3.7kg difference between the new Ks60 and the older bigger Ks120

Well, you're probably a lot stronger than I am, because I don't think 3,7 kg is a small difference.

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 354
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2017, 05:07 PM »
Seems like a wide-open opportunity for someone with a 3-D printer and little time on their hands.  I bet someone here can make and sell something just as functional for 20.00

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1524
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2017, 05:54 PM »
Seems like a wide-open opportunity for someone with a 3-D printer and little time on their hands.  I bet someone here can make and sell something just as functional for 20.00
One can make it in 5 min from piece of scrap and for free.

Offline petar73

  • Posts: 6
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Hi every one, glad to be here  ;D
I for one really like the new kapex 60. I often use my car for work and my dewalt dw712 fits perfectly in my boot where my kapex 120 is a couple of inches too high to pull the load cover and I do appreciate the weight difference as well.  Perhaps festool thought that if anyone wants higher, wider and more powerful saw will go for kapex 120.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2017, 08:45 PM »
Needing a different set of UG extensions takes the KS60 off my shrinking list of future Festool purchases .. I like my KS120, but will stick with my little cordless Metabo SCMS for the small stuff.

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 298
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2017, 09:02 PM »
Needing a different set of UG extensions takes the KS60 off my shrinking list of future Festool purchases .. I like my KS120, but will stick with my little cordless Metabo SCMS for the small stuff.

I doubt I'll be queueing for one either.  I must say that I'm pretty impressed with its 120 mm vertical skirting board capability despite the tight footprint & small blade.  The extended double bevel capabilities are pretty good too, but without better pricing, or at least the occasional special and the absence of local servicing & repair facilities I'm similarly obliged to look elsewhere too.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2017, 12:08 AM »
Why would you want to use a  $100 systainer to balance lengths of timber on any way .A couple of off cuts clamped to the bench work just fine.  8)



Oh, I don't know - because you're carrying them (SYS1) with you anyway ?

Because it takes time to make some offcuts for each job and is a waste of material, or is something else to carry around that has no other purpose if you do save them.

Because most flooring guys work on the floor and don't go up and down to cut stuff at a saw station.

Because other people (customers) will look at the setup and think "how clever is that" - which they aren't going to say about a couple of scraps holding up your material.

Of course scraps , and make your own feet and saw stations will work and be cheap.  But then so would a host of other tools that aren't Festool , so it seems your missing the point. 

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 45
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 05:58 AM »
Sorry antss,  must have touched a nerve with that comment, just my 2 cents worth
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:17 AM by Harry1561 »

Offline sac3848

  • Posts: 41
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 07:21 AM »
Just make a shorter systainer Call it the .5

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 09:08 AM »
...It's not designed specific for you, it's for the whole world (lol except NAINA sorry about that)...

I just measured a SYS1 and found its 4 1/3 inches tall, what a goofy height.  I'm guessing the 60 is starting out NAINA because they haven't yet justified making an imperial SYS1 adapter.

Out of curiosity, how tall are the metric SYS1's?



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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5706
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2017, 09:18 AM »
I just measured a SYS1 and found its 4 1/3 inches tall, what a goofy height.  I'm guessing the 60 is starting out NAINA because they haven't yet justified making an imperial SYS1 adapter.

Out of curiosity, how tall are the metric SYS1's?

They have the exact same goofy height as imperial SYS1's. It's a big coincidence.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online SRSemenza

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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2017, 09:52 AM »

Out of curiosity, how tall are the metric SYS1's?


     Stacking increments of 105mm.   112mm including the feet. Except Sys- II which is 157.5 (1 1/2 105mm increments.)


Seth

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 616
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2017, 10:52 AM »
Totally unnecessary, but if you can $60 on $5 worth of parts...

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1524
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2017, 01:36 PM »
Kapex 120 aligns with SYS1, right? Does anyone use sys1 for stock support or ever saw others doing it? Illustrates practicality of this issue.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 382
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2017, 02:10 PM »
I'm slightly curious that so many people say the 60 is only really for flooring contractors?

You do know that you can cut things like skirting boards laid flat don't you? I don't know any contractor who cuts them upright so am slightly baffled at why people think its a problem.
It will cut stud timber, boards (including skirting or baseboards/whatever you Merkins call em) upto pretty massive.

Pretty good size for a saw that will be caried out of a van, up a flight or two of stairs everyday and back.

OK maybe not much use for coving but thats very rare on commercial sites.

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 02:37 PM »
I did go through the machine today at a pushers nest that had a few units in store and one assembled.

Fit and finish is fine and everything runs smoothly. I would not say that the gliders on this particular unit were as smooth as the larger Kapex and actually less smooth than my Makita LS0714. Still good though.

The blade does run a while longer than expected after a cut is made. I would not call it an effective blade brake but not a deal breaker for most I guess. I am not even sure it has a blade brake??? Anyone? The dealer said it did not look like it had a brake, he did not know and the guy who did wasn't there at the time.

It looked and felt like there was a bit of blade wobble going on - judging by vibrations and looking at the blade.  [blink]

It was seated in the Kapex stand so I could not gauge the weight or "agility factor" though grips were really good and I think the unit will be easy to carry despite it being a bit heavy for a "smaller saw". 

Girth, well, a bit large for a small saw but it folds down well. It is not a small saw, it is a medium sized saw and compared with other (same blade size) saws in store it was among the larger ones in footprint. Yes, it does bevel two ways but if you are in the market for a "small size saw" and look at all aspects I am not sure I would put the KS60 on top of my list.

I am not sure if I like it or not - it definitely did not put me off or anything but perhaps I was a bit underwhelmed.
I could have walked out with one (and I have an in store bonus that would have gotten me a unit for free) but didn't feel the love even though I am in the market for a saw in this class.

I think the Metabo KGS 72 Xact SYM seems like a more innovative saw - at a much better price and in the same size and weight category and with pretty much the same apparent build quality - except for the fence perhaps. The Metabo can be had without the SYM fence and is then same weight and size and has better cut capacity for deeper/long cuts with 72 over 60. And a lot cheaper.

I will take a long hard look at the Metabo (only looked at it briefly while picking up the Metabo 18V SCMS) and by the looks of it I will be settling for the Metabo. I think I get a much better deal and the SYM feature is handy for me and I could then relegate the SYM 70 to other cutting tasks. 

« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 02:41 PM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2017, 01:14 AM »
I just measured a SYS1 and found its 4 1/3 inches tall, what a goofy height.  I'm guessing the 60 is starting out NAINA because they haven't yet justified making an imperial SYS1 adapter.

Out of curiosity, how tall are the metric SYS1's?

They have the exact same goofy height as imperial SYS1's.
It's a big coincidence.


@Alex
@Scorpion   [LOL]
______________

@Svar

Hi. Yes for sure we can all make do with quick fixes, and most of us do from time to time. My issue here is that Festool is promoting a feature/ability that was not incorporated in the design engineering; and a feature that is part of the design within the KS120.

And for flooring guys [working at floor level] this particular SYS1 with the MDF lid might be more handy than the plain SYS1 featured in the Festool Catalogues and Videos of the KS60.
As @Kev mentioned the stands appear not to be cross compatible between the two saws either. This might be of more concern to others than myself, and sure if you were a mobile contractor with both saws than you would probably want two stands anyway.
___________________________

@Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits
Thank you for presenting your impressions of the saw. I am concerned regarding the action of or indeed the possibility of no blade brake.
___________________________

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 05:35 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline dutchie

  • Posts: 136
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2017, 04:26 PM »
Isn't the B in Kapex KS 120 EB for Brake? And since this is the Kapex KS 60 E sans[/] B that would explain it not having a motor brake.

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 07:45 AM »
How necessary is a brake?  My 120 has one obviously but it also has a blade guard that fully covers so a spinning blade wouldn't be that big of a deal right?  Maybe I just haven't experienced the difference or considered how it would be different.


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Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 08:21 AM »
A saw brake isn't necessary.
Neither is a powered mitersaw.
Nor is a Festool necessary.

But they are all nice things to have if you make a lot of miter cuts.  And a brake would seem to me to be one of things a high end mitersaw should have. 

There is still the elephant in the room for all the NA , and Brit site work guys, chatting about all the features and capabilities this saw has or doesn't have.  Namely, has FT worked out their 110v motor woes on their mitersaws ?

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 03:39 PM »
A saw brake isn't necessary.
Neither is a powered mitersaw.
Nor is a Festool necessary.

But they are all nice things to have if you make a lot of miter cuts.  And a brake would seem to me to be one of things a high end mitersaw should have. 

I agree to all of the above.

Considering I have the option of getting the KS60 "for free" or order a Metabo KGS 72 Xact Sym - which I would have to pay for with real money - I am really pitting these against each other. The Metabo is cheaper but weighs half a kilo more. Metabo has one extra feature I like and has slightly better cutting specs except that the Kapex mitres 60/60 and the Metabo 50/50. If Metabo has a blade brake it would sway me further towards it but it isn't the most crucial feature. If I was going for a Metabo KGS 72 Xact (without the SYM feature) it is lighter than the Kapex, slightly better specs and considerably cheaper. 

All of them have front gliders and are similar in size. After fondling the Kapex I am not sure it is better built than Metabo. I don't remember much from the KGS Xact SYM; I briefly looked at it while I was picking up my 18V Metabo SCMS. It looked solid enough and working the knobs and levers felt good though I didn't cut anything with it. My gut feel is that the Metabo offers a little more for less money. It has an LED light too but I don't think it gives the shadow line that the Kapex gives. That is the single most positive difference for the KS60 in use I would say. 

I am slightly hijacking the thread in my own personal quest but I think the posting holds some merit as I am comparing the Kapex with a current, similar size/spec mitre saw that might offer same, or even more, for less.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 04:58 PM »
The lack of a brake could be a deal breaker for me. Sure the SYS1 issue got me thinking, particularly from an engineering/design and marketing perspective.

But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.

Now when installing flooring, this might not be an issue, but I am considering this saw for furniture and final fix work, where the lack if a brake could be a real pain - pun intended.

Of course Festool may believe a brake is not necessary due to the inherent inertia of a smaller blade and the saws gearing.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 05:10 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2017, 06:50 AM »
My trusty old Makita LS0714L has no blade brake - and yes, it does bother me at times. I was cutting 140-something lengths of glass wall trim and it was tedious having to wait for the blade brake between plunges.

When cutting studs and flooring it does not bother me but I would rather have a blade brake than not have it if given the choice.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2017, 01:15 PM »
Kapex 120 aligns with SYS1, right? Does anyone use sys1 for stock support or ever saw others doing it? Illustrates practicality of this issue.

Yep, seen it half a dozen times at least.   

I've also seen and used a sys1 for the same thing on other Miter Saws.  They don't align exactly out of the box, but are easily modified.

I don't think it's a groundswell of users that use this, but it should have been included in the design - if the "system approach" is more than just BS. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 01:22 PM by antss »

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2017, 01:14 AM »
But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.


Duh, now I get it. I was thinking safety.  Waiting for spin down would  irritate me for how I'd use it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:58 AM by Scorpion »

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2017, 02:22 AM »
But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.

Duh, now I get it. I was thinking safety.  Waiting for spin down would  me off for how I'd use it.

Today AEST, I asked a question on the Australian Festool Facebook visitor posts regarding the lack of brake for the KS60. I received the following reply via Messanger.

Hi Xxxxxxx, Thank you for your comment on our facebook page. Festool Germany has choose to only include the blade brake on the KS 120. I have spoken to our product trainer and he has informed me that he sees no concern as the blade on the KS 60 slows down at a rate that we believe to be safe. Kind Regards, Xxxxx.

And just now on UTube I found this clip. Note the blade speed reduction at the 30 second mark. I would be happy with this amount of blade speed reduction.



As I stated on
The lack of a brake co . . . . . . . .

Of course Festool may believe a brake is not necessary due to the inherent inertia of a smaller blade and the saws gearing.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 02:54 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2017, 07:05 AM »

Today AEST, I asked a question on the Australian Festool Facebook visitor posts regarding the lack of brake for the KS60. I received the following reply via Messanger.

And just now on UTube I found this clip. Note the blade speed reduction at the 30 second mark. I would be happy with this amount of blade speed reduction.




As long as they're happy.  Lol.  I honestly can't tell anything from that video except they chose dramatic powerful music.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ali

  • Posts: 145
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2017, 09:04 AM »
Also noticed that the new KS60 uses different UG-extension wings to the KS120

 [sad] [sad]

Have to double up on wings too.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5706
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2017, 09:25 AM »
Looks like the blade stops in 2 to 3 seconds. That is pretty fast. I don't get all the complaining about this, and as soon as you lift the blade the guard covers it immediately.

Really, I don't get any of the complaining in this thread.

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 298
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2017, 11:15 PM »
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package. Why on earth should they absolutely -have to- make the base the same height as a systainer



But it would have been nicer had they included the feet with the saw. It's just 2 dollars worth of plastic. But there you have Festool's rip off marketing methods.


Uh........because it's a system
because they claim to only release a tool with improvements
because they claim to have better engineering
because they're other saw is made that way




Nicer  [doh]

Why use an add on to solve an issue that could have been eliminated during design and manufacturing ?
Weight , my foot. A second year industrial design student could easily give you a few ways to increase the height without adding weight. 
This seems like a case of the product manager deciding that the band aid for the product's shortcomings should be paid for by the customer.

Now, the customer pays in the end anyway - but it never ceases to amaze me how Festool nickel and dimes users in haphazard and inconsistent way. 

I've raised this point before - don't they beta test this stuff in the field before release?  And if so who's testing it ?  It would appear that the faithful are not consulted.

And honestly is anyone going to buy one of these in the 110v version given its big brother's motor issues.

Part of the problem with medium size enterprises is the relative scarcity of R&D resources.  The "big boys", much larger highly capitalised conglomerates like Bobby Bosch or the Asian triumvirate of TTI, Makita & Hitachi, have billions available.  Yet, despite the very best intentions & expenditure they still make some spectacular mistakes.

Ever the innovator, the early development & release of new technologies hasn't always served Makita well.  Some tools have been abysmal failures:  the combi drill/hammer/rattler, the first generation of lithium cells & chargers, their initial run of three speed drills, their first cordless grinders were typically sub-par.  Yet their innovative strategies have lead to triumphs too:  their rattlers, the first rechargeable drills and lithium powered tools.  In Makita's case, the sheer depth and breadth of ranging has allowed their triumphs to far outweigh their mistakes.

In comparison, much smaller enterprises such as the Tooltechnic group can ill afford to make, or even worse, acknowledge, mistakes.  To do so would be in diametric & philosophical opposition to the corporate ethos of innate superiority.  Aberrant product releases must instead be quietly allowed to disappear, lest the current company's reputation, carefully manicured by marketing, market positioning & pricing policies suffer negative setbacks.

Unfortunately, the need to maintain an "Über alles" market position requires a risk-averse innovation-light development strategy.  Smaller enterprises can be much more readily "undone" financially from gross mistakes, especially those positioning themselves as "haute couture" in their particular marketplace.  Not to mention the fickle nature of the fashionistas and other potential clientele in the rarified upper end of consumerist fantasies.  It's simply "safer" to learn from the mistakes & successes of others.

This continued aversion to risk, coupled with limited developmental resources, can however become a deadly combination in this rarified atmosphere:  it can be truly " tough at the top".  Damned if you do (innovate), damned (or even worse be regarded as boring) if you don't.

The bigger Keiretsu, cashed up conglomerates, Public enterprises & horizontally & vertically integrated enterprises have an opportunistic & envious eye permanently focussed on any perceived competitor's market share.  With vastly superior resources, economies of scale and production capabilities that dwarf the likes of Festo/Narex, it is of little surprise that we see the batons of innovation, reliability & even quality being passed on to newer hands.  Only in that most fickle of parameters - exclusivity - does Festo have any legitimate claim to leadership these days.

One may no longer feel quite so assured of continued customer loyalty, especially if one is perceived as deficient in corporate loyalty.  The reciprocity of this arrangement is an essential aspect of long-term corporate associations and social contracts, whether it be between an enterprise & its customer base, a government & the governed, or in a master/servant relationship of employment.  Reward must be mutual, respect prevalent & equity paramount.  History is littered with the messy results of the inequities, abuses & disrespect between contractual partnerships.  Any organisation that ignores these non-codified but intrinsic social & moral parameters does so at its peril.  If I lived on another continent the net price of a particular sander would be about ONE TENTH of the price that I'm actually obliged to pay....

Yes, they can certainly trade for some time on the strength of their past reputation, but in a contemporary competitive marketplace, where innovations tend to be more closely guarded and the spirit of corporate pooling of resources that was always a feature of post war German enterprise long gone, it is only a matter of time before any "banked" balance of goodwill is squandered by any real or perceived unresponsiveness to legitimate customer concerns about product performance, safety or reliability.  There will always be somebody to candidly declare that the Emperor is indeed naked, and ever a hungry competitor ready & willing to acquire new customers.

Festo, I fear your days are numbered.  You've become boring.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 12:57 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2017, 12:48 AM »
@aloysius
Yep that is a great analysis. I still see extra quality in the manufacturing and the tolerances within most of the Festool range. But it's been a long time since Festool came up with a game changing concept such as the Domino.

I can see the quality in this saw, but is there innovation?

Looks . . . .
Really, I don't get any of the complaining in this thread.

@Alex
I think this thread was not one of complaining, but rather some analysis of how Festool designers failed to follow through on the 'system'. Having 'forgot' the system, they created an add on.

But hey, sure it now seems the blade and gearing stop the blade at sufficient speed to make a brake redundant.

If nothing else this thread had provided some analysis for some like myself who are considering the purchase of this saw. For me, it's still one of two options - Festool or Metabo?
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2017, 02:57 PM »
@Untidy Shop I agree that this thread has provided some good clarification.

Already having a KS120 +UG and liking it, but also really enjoying the flexibility of my small cordless Metabo SCMS I was interested in the KS60. Had the KS60 mated with the UG gear I already have I would have found it hard to resist. As things stand I'm resisting it quite well [smile]

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 128
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2017, 04:06 PM »
Ill be waiting for a cordless one to come out.

The fact that once the ks60 is on the ug cart its the same wait as the ks120.
Why bother.

Bryan

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2631
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2017, 04:27 PM »

The fact that once the ks60 is on the ug cart its the same wait as the ks120.
Why bother.


Huh? [huh]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Maťo

  • Posts: 13
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Part of the problem with medium size enterprises is the relative scarcity of R&D resources.  The "big boys", much larger highly capitalised conglomerates like Bobby Bosch or the Asian triumvirate of TTI, Makita & Hitachi, have billions available.  Yet, despite the very best intentions & expenditure they still make some spectacular mistakes.

Ever the innovator, the early development & release of new technologies hasn't always served Makita well.  Some tools have been abysmal failures:  the combi drill/hammer/rattler, the first generation of lithium cells & chargers, their initial run of three speed drills, their first cordless grinders were typically sub-par.  Yet their innovative strategies have lead to triumphs too:  their rattlers, the first rechargeable drills and lithium powered tools.  In Makita's case, the sheer depth and breadth of ranging has allowed their triumphs to far outweigh their mistakes.

In comparison, much smaller enterprises such as the Tooltechnic group can ill afford to make, or even worse, acknowledge, mistakes.  To do so would be in diametric & philosophical opposition to the corporate ethos of innate superiority.  Aberrant product releases must instead be quietly allowed to disappear, lest the current company's reputation, carefully manicured by marketing, market positioning & pricing policies suffer negative setbacks.

Unfortunately, the need to maintain an "Über alles" market position requires a risk-averse innovation-light development strategy.  Smaller enterprises can be much more readily "undone" financially from gross mistakes, especially those positioning themselves as "haute couture" in their particular marketplace.  Not to mention the fickle nature of the fashionistas and other potential clientele in the rarified upper end of consumerist fantasies.  It's simply "safer" to learn from the mistakes & successes of others.

This continued aversion to risk, coupled with limited developmental resources, can however become a deadly combination in this rarified atmosphere:  it can be truly " tough at the top".  Damned if you do (innovate), damned (or even worse be regarded as boring) if you don't.

The bigger Keiretsu, cashed up conglomerates, Public enterprises & horizontally & vertically integrated enterprises have an opportunistic & envious eye permanently focussed on any perceived competitor's market share.  With vastly superior resources, economies of scale and production capabilities that dwarf the likes of Festo/Narex, it is of little surprise that we see the batons of innovation, reliability & even quality being passed on to newer hands.  Only in that most fickle of parameters - exclusivity - does Festo have any legitimate claim to leadership these days.

One may no longer feel quite so assured of continued customer loyalty, especially if one is perceived as deficient in corporate loyalty.  The reciprocity of this arrangement is an essential aspect of long-term corporate associations and social contracts, whether it be between an enterprise & its customer base, a government & the governed, or in a master/servant relationship of employment.  Reward must be mutual, respect prevalent & equity paramount.  History is littered with the messy results of the inequities, abuses & disrespect between contractual partnerships.  Any organisation that ignores these non-codified but intrinsic social & moral parameters does so at its peril.  If I lived on another continent the net price of a particular sander would be about ONE TENTH of the price that I'm actually obliged to pay....

Yes, they can certainly trade for some time on the strength of their past reputation, but in a contemporary competitive marketplace, where innovations tend to be more closely guarded and the spirit of corporate pooling of resources that was always a feature of post war German enterprise long gone, it is only a matter of time before any "banked" balance of goodwill is squandered by any real or perceived unresponsiveness to legitimate customer concerns about product performance, safety or reliability.  There will always be somebody to candidly declare that the Emperor is indeed naked, and ever a hungry competitor ready & willing to acquire new customers.

Festo, I fear your days are numbered.  You've become boring.
[/quote]



Great analysis I think its spot on.
Festool became sort of a kitch. Top in marketing but lacking in innovation/engineering. Too many gimmicks and nasty marketing tricks. I perceive it as a very dishonest company.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 431
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2017, 05:37 PM »
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 911
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2017, 05:58 PM »
Has Festool become to boring or have the other manufacturers like Dewalt, with thier Flexivolt just become more innovative and more interesting. Festools biggest problem in Australia is quite simply down to price.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 11556
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2017, 06:01 PM »
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?

LOL!

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2017, 06:24 PM »
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?

Problem is when the tool prices would make even a hedge fund manager weep, there's no room for compromises, flaws or bodged solutions to bad design.

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2017, 06:37 PM »
Hi
 To give the discussion a reminder of the product (s).......
I disagree Festool is boring - it produces machines for the pro market and designed for the markets in which Festool operate. The range needed a smaller SCMS with a 216mm blade and here it is.......it fits the system with the UG cart, it is lightweight, wide angle range, great extraction, folds up small for transport, angle finder has been improved, simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds, ergonomics are very good, left or right handed use, can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these.....and it has the feet for the same height as a Sys 1 which reduces the casting weight and keeps the saw a bit lighter.
rg
Phil
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 07:01 PM by Peter Halle »
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2017, 06:54 PM »
Hi
 To give the discussion a reminder of the product (s)....... (Attachment Link)
I disagree Festool is not boring - it produces machines for the pro market and designed for the markets in which Festool operate. The range needed a smaller SCMS with a 216mm blade and here it is.......it fits the system with the UG cart, it is lightweight, wide angle range, great extraction, folds up small for transport, angle finder has been improved, simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds, ergonomics are very good, left or right handed use, can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these.....and it has the feet for the same height as a Sys 1 which reduces the casting weight and keeps the saw a bit lighter.
rg
Phil

That's fantastic! Since Festool are so fantastic, why not throw them in for free with the £600 saw? That would be fantastic.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2017, 06:55 PM »
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?

Problem is when the tool prices would make even a hedge fund manager weep, there's no room for compromises, flaws or bodged solutions to bad design.

...it cuts timber very accurately so it performs its basic role very well so I would disagree with bodged design......the feet supply an option to work with a Systainer if the need arises.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2017, 07:02 PM »
Hi
 To give the discussion a reminder of the product (s)....... (Attachment Link)
I disagree Festool is not boring - it produces machines for the pro market and designed for the markets in which Festool operate. The range needed a smaller SCMS with a 216mm blade and here it is.......it fits the system with the UG cart, it is lightweight, wide angle range, great extraction, folds up small for transport, angle finder has been improved, simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds, ergonomics are very good, left or right handed use, can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these.....and it has the feet for the same height as a Sys 1 which reduces the casting weight and keeps the saw a bit lighter.
rg
Phil

That's fantastic! Since Festool are so fantastic, why not throw them in for free with the £600 saw? That would be fantastic.

....alternatively I am sure someone will produce something cheaper to bring the machine up to the height of a Sys1.....the feet do not have to be purchased after all and a solution can be found in other ways.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2017, 07:14 PM »

Festo, I fear your days are numbered.  You've become boring.
[/quote]



Great analysis I think its spot on.
Festool became sort of a kitch. Top in marketing but lacking in innovation/engineering. Too many gimmicks and nasty marketing tricks. I perceive it as a very dishonest company.
[/quote]

....not boring for sure and innovation is constant within the company - innovation takes time and yes Festool are ahead in this respect. The mass market is not our territory and Festool will keep to the well known route of supplying solutions to specific application issues and the pro market. Festool are good at marketing to our customer base as are all successful companies and brands....this surely is to be expected it is part of business.
However, as for gimmicks and dishonesty I will pass comment on
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2017, 09:25 PM »
OMG , Methinks thou dost protest too much.   

"it fits the system with the UG cart",
Yep, so does my 100 quid hobbyist saw after and adapter is made or purchased.

"it is lightweight, wide angle range,"
Again so is that cheapie I mentioned and the practical angle range is really no better than
any other saw.

"great extraction",
you got me here - it does.


"folds up small for transport,"
same again on the cheapie one

"simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds,"
same again - lots of saws do.


"left or right handed use, "
so does every other vertical handed mitersaw on the market.
And - you guys are really hanging your hat on 10% of the population ?  Of which , what percent are mitersaw buyers ?  And of that group - what percent are then festool mitersaw buyers ??? 

Few !    It is of course your business, and you should run it as you see fit.  But to proclaim some broad appeal of a feature that isn't popular with the majority of users is a bit naive or arrogant.  I'd be willing to place a sinigificant wager that horizontal (righty only) handled saws outsell vertical handled makes on the order of 20 to 1.  It's a differentiator for sure, but a feature warranting a premimum price ?

Did you ever survey your core customers - 90 % of whom are right handed - to see what they'd have preferred ?  And if lefties are so high on the priority list - why no lefty version of the tracksaws ?


"can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these..."
same with my cheapie

"it cuts timber very accurately"
so do all my mitersaws - it's kinda pointless to have/keep  tools that don't produce accurate results.

" it performs its basic role very well "
yep - see above.  And I can buy 5 of them for the cost of a FT entry level saw.

This is the rub and angst that I think has percolated here.  When you position yourself as the best , and your core customers come round and point out what they'd think your system should be ......well , to then say are our designers think , or we don't feel "x" is necessary ect... kinda is arrogance .  Or, to say our's has all the features the others have but is better because it's more expensive and lefties can use it naturally , is well.........

Sorry Seth, just callin it like I see it.

"after all and a solution can be found in other ways."
Mgmt. should be very careful about this catching on. 

I love all my Festools, but I'm here to tell you they don't lead in every catagory.  And when you hold yourself up as one of the pinnacles , you had better deliver, and get used to taking criticism from core customers when you don't quite hit the mark.  You might even think about consulting them - which is a very un-German business practice.  Japanese firms do this with good effect for contrast.  But to each his own.



« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 11:21 PM by antss »

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 298
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2017, 01:48 AM »
I'd never actually thought of those ridiculous vertical handles as being some sort of "gender equity" device for making the world a better place....

To me, it was just another example of the fashionable trend of placing form before function. I especially hated it because I've found the combination of poor ergonomic design embodied in the not just vertical but also elongated void in the handle gets dangerously slippery when used in summer especially.  I tried to circumvent an accident by coating my handle in cross linking polymer tape to seek a more secure grip.  The whole adoption of those ridiculous "unisex" vertical handles displays a fundamental lack of understanding of ergonomics.

When Elu, Electra Beckum et. al. first developed this class of machine back in the late 70's & early 80's they applied sound human engineering principles to their tools in a way that the post millennial copycats seem incapable.  heck, even Raymond DeWalt's saw from the 1930's has better ergonomics in many ways, despite having only a push/pull action rather than the controlled pull/lower/push/raise action of latter day SCMS.

Granted, I'm not crack-handed like the 10%, but I sympathise with their ergonomic difficulties in what is effectively a right handed world.  My eldest daughter is thus afflicted.  Nevertheless it is at best disingenuous & at worst cynical and callous to impose what is effectively an inappropriate and potentially dangerous design on the remaining 90% of users using equity as an excuse for poor design!   Most competitors manage to provide superior, well designed, safe & easily identified & manipulated ambidextrous safety interlocks, yet Festo and a select few others seem incapable.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 476
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2017, 05:37 AM »
@antss

What on earth are you talking about!? I honestly think you should apologise to
Phill. You aggressively rubbished everything he said with practically zero substance in your comments.
I've used as many cheap mitre saws over the last 15 years as anyone you're going to meet.  . . .

1 - if you want to spend a day making a questionably acurate adapter for your cheap saw to fit festool extensions then no one would stop you. . .

2 - yes many cheap saws have guide light/laser, but boy do they stop/start working, get clogged in dust due to poor location, loose their accuracy - if indeed they ever had accuracy. . .

3 - the 60 degree cutting left or right is NOT common on all cheapie saws, what bull*# to say it is.

4 - left handed use likely referes to the location of of the motor so it doesn't trap a hand when holding the timber on the right of the saw. there are many reasons why a right handed user like myself may want to use the saw 'left handed'.
So it's not designed for 10% of users it is just designed well.

5 - if by "cheapie saws" you are referring to a saw that costs less than half the festool (which you should be if your comments are to have any validity) then please let us know what wonderful and cheap mitre saw you own. I would love to find a mitre saw less than £250 that is as reliably accurate as a festool saw.
My personal experience with saws in this price range is a lot of adjusting angles with my own bevels and squares rather than use the markings on the saw. . .

Sorry to dig at you antss, but your post sucked like a snot faced toddler with a temper tantrum.

Festool is expensive, but it is not THAT expensive. Sometimes people get a little OTT in their opinion of what they are owed by the company because they've invested in some of the company's tools.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2017, 06:46 AM »

@Phil Beckley

Thank you Phil for providing some Festool perspective here.

I still am not convinced that the 'system' concept has been followed here and when compared to the 120.

I think one of the difficulties highlighted by this thread, was that the release publicity has been based on a video of self congratulation for the designers/engineers etc., rather than a video providing real information about this saw. Such a release video could still have had the same production values but more promotion of the saws attributes in actual use.

On looking at the Festool Aust site I notice that the KS60  UG adapter can be purchased separately. Does this mean that by purchasing the adapter, a 120 UG can be used with the KS60?  [ @Kev ]

http://www.festool.com.au/epages/tooltechnic.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/tooltechnic/Products/202056
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:01 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2017, 07:24 AM »
The personal attacks need to stop or those posts will be deleted in accordance with the forum guidelines.  If it is impossible to post without the attacks or the shielded attacks then don't post.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2017, 07:53 AM »

@Phil Beckley

Thank you Phil for providing some Festool perspective here.

I still am not convinced that the 'system' concept has been followed here and when compared to the 120.

I think one of the difficulties highlighted by this thread, was that the release publicity has been based on a video of self congratulation for the designers/engineers etc., rather than a video providing real information about this saw. Such a release video could still have had the same production values but more promotion of the saws attributes in actual use.

On looking at the Festool Aust site I notice that the KS60  UG adapter can be purchased separately. Does this mean that by purchasing the adapter, a 120 UG can be used with the KS60?  [ @Kev ]

http://www.festool.com.au/epages/tooltechnic.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/tooltechnic/Products/202056



.......more practical information will be coming as it is still early days for the release of the KS60 - you will be seeing more form the UK for sure on this area and this will focus on the usage of the machine - I will post this as soon as the dates are firmed up.
   The UG stand from the 120 can be used with the adaptor plate so the KS60 can sit on as well. The legs from the 120 can also be used. A new version for the KS60 is available to allow for the shorter width of the KS 60 and then the scales will be correct.
Hope this helps
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Iceclimber

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2017, 08:07 AM »
How did this saw not get the token Festool FRONT adjustible bevel feature.

Maybe not a deal breaker but a let down for sure.

The only improvment i see on this saw is the lazer for the blade light.

Well and the size reduction if thats something you want. The rest Festool just keeps missing.

Make a accurate saw with a strong powerful motor that lasts decades not years or months with inovative features like the front bevel adjust or simple to use tilt function like the bigger Kapex a quality blade out of the box and you got something.

So wait what did festool need to do with this saw "shrink the kapex in its current form but add a strong a reliable motor" that would had sold saws to the Festool loyal.



Kapex, MFT/3, MFT, CMS VL, 1400, TS75, Carvex420, CXS, DTS 400, Midi, CT36, RO90 and a bunch of other little crap and accessories it would be nuts to get into listing..

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2017, 08:08 AM »
OMG , Methinks thou dost protest too much.   

"it fits the system with the UG cart",
Yep, so does my 100 quid hobbyist saw after and adapter is made or purchased.

"it is lightweight, wide angle range,"
Again so is that cheapie I mentioned and the practical angle range is really no better than
any other saw.

"great extraction",
you got me here - it does.


"folds up small for transport,"
same again on the cheapie one

"simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds,"
same again - lots of saws do.


"left or right handed use, "
so does every other vertical handed mitersaw on the market.
And - you guys are really hanging your hat on 10% of the population ?  Of which , what percent are mitersaw buyers ?  And of that group - what percent are then festool mitersaw buyers ??? 

Few !    It is of course your business, and you should run it as you see fit.  But to proclaim some broad appeal of a feature that isn't popular with the majority of users is a bit naive or arrogant.  I'd be willing to place a sinigificant wager that horizontal (righty only) handled saws outsell vertical handled makes on the order of 20 to 1.  It's a differentiator for sure, but a feature warranting a premimum price ?

Did you ever survey your core customers - 90 % of whom are right handed - to see what they'd have preferred ?  And if lefties are so high on the priority list - why no lefty version of the tracksaws ?


"can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these..."
same with my cheapie

"it cuts timber very accurately"
so do all my mitersaws - it's kinda pointless to have/keep  tools that don't produce accurate results.

" it performs its basic role very well "
yep - see above.  And I can buy 5 of them for the cost of a FT entry level saw.

This is the rub and angst that I think has percolated here.  When you position yourself as the best , and your core customers come round and point out what they'd think your system should be ......well , to then say are our designers think , or we don't feel "x" is necessary ect... kinda is arrogance .  Or, to say our's has all the features the others have but is better because it's more expensive and lefties can use it naturally , is well.........

Sorry Seth, just callin it like I see it.

"after all and a solution can be found in other ways."
Mgmt. should be very careful about this catching on. 

I love all my Festools, but I'm here to tell you they don't lead in every catagory.  And when you hold yourself up as one of the pinnacles , you had better deliver, and get used to taking criticism from core customers when you don't quite hit the mark.  You might even think about consulting them - which is a very un-German business practice.  Japanese firms do this with good effect for contrast.  But to each his own.

.....I stand by all I put in the original post earlier in the thread. It was intended as informed comment on the KS60 and some of the features that may appeal to others who read the forum pages.....I have had use of the KS60 for the past few months and have also carried out a lot of comparison work on competitor machines as well and it is well designed for the segment to which it is aimed at.
    I try and post objectively and have never said Festool are the best......I try and let the machine capabilities speak for 'it' and if this helps the end user to consider a benefit to there work then sure my job is done.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2017, 08:18 AM »
@Phil Beckley - When you mention "legs", are you referring to the extensions with the folding legs?

Also, just to be concise, if someone would have a Kapex 120 with the UG stand and the extensions, he could use the KS60 with the adaptor plate interchangeably with his existing UG and extensions as site conditions required?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:21 AM by Peter Halle »

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2017, 08:23 AM »
@Phil Beckley - When you mention "legs", are you referring to the extensions with the folding legs?

Also, just to be concise, if someone would have a Kapex 120 with the UG stand and the extensions, he could use the KS60 with the adaptor plate interchangeably with his existing UG and extensions as site conditions required?

Peter

....yes, extensions with folding legs.
....So if the full version of the KS120 is already owned....the KS60 will fit to this set up with the adaptor plate.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2017, 08:35 AM »
@Phil Beckley, two last questions: 

If you are mounting the KS-60 onto the adaptor plate to use it on the UG stand, do you need to remove the previously mentioned feet? 

Does the KS60 mounting plate have any sort of soft "feet" so that it could be used off the UG on the floor without removing the saw from it, and if so, does the saw base then line up with a systainer height?

Peter

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2017, 09:05 AM »
@Phil Beckley, two last questions: 

If you are mounting the KS-60 onto the adaptor plate to use it on the UG stand, do you need to remove the previously mentioned feet? 

Does the KS60 mounting plate have any sort of soft "feet" so that it could be used off the UG on the floor without removing the saw from it, and if so, does the saw base then line up with a systainer height?

Peter

....the feet need to be removed
....The plate has soft feet and when together on the floor with the saw comes to a height of 194mm
rg
Phil




« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:11 AM by Phil Beckley »
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline glass1

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I think what folks(the normal ones in this post) are getting at is if I remove my ks120 from the ug cart and place the ks60 in the adapter and than on the said ug cart will the measuring scale still work? The adapters are genius if they make the ks60 the same width as ks12" without adapters.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2017, 09:27 AM »
@Phil Beckley please see above post.

Peter

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2017, 09:30 AM »
I think what folks(the normal ones in this post) are getting at is if I remove my ks120 from the ug cart and place the ks60 in the adapter and than on the said ug cart will the measuring scale still work? The adapters are genius if they make the ks60 the same width as ks12" without adapters.


....the scales will not be correct. Hence the reason for the separate Leg extensions
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Kev

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2017, 10:37 AM »
I think what folks(the normal ones in this post) are getting at is if I remove my ks120 from the ug cart and place the ks60 in the adapter and than on the said ug cart will the measuring scale still work? The adapters are genius if they make the ks60 the same width as ks12" without adapters.

....the scales will not be correct. Hence the reason for the separate Leg extensions
rg
Phil

Sadly the incompatibility of the extensions is the biggest issue. I'd be extremely reluctant to buy a KS60 and then buy another complete UG setup and the same will probably true for someone that buys a complete KS60 + UG setup and momentarily considers a KS120.

I really do consider this a monumental blunder ... the feet issue is just stupid and they should be included - that's a really unnecessary money grab, but the extension incompatibility is dumb.

The KS60 may be a great little saw, but the company that preaches system, system, system just lost the plot entirely.

Offline Corwin

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2017, 02:44 PM »
My thinking on the extension wings or legs, is not only will the scales be an issue for someone with both saws, it is also a warehousing issue for Festool in having to stock both type extensions. A better solution would have been to either make the new saw work with the old extension wings, or to make the new extensions for the new saw with adjustable scales so that they would work with either saw and then phase out the old extensions. Having two products where the only difference is the scales seems to me to be a costly mistake.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Svar

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2017, 05:24 PM »
Unlike chop saw (one degree of freedom), vertical handle on SCMS (two degrees of freedom) makes perfect sense.

Offline Svar

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 06:08 PM by Svar »

Offline Holmz

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2017, 05:37 PM »
...

There will always be some amount of movement & flexing. So I decided to find out how much. With the indicator at the fence it amounted to .005-.009". Moving the indicator 3 1/2" from the fence it became .007-.016". Even just resting my hand on the handle it moved +/- .003".

Finally something factual - well done.

Offline Svar

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2017, 05:45 PM »
There will always be some amount of movement & flexing. So I decided to find out how much. With the indicator at the fence it amounted to .005-.009". Moving the indicator 3 1/2" from the fence it became .007-.016". Even just resting my hand on the handle it moved +/- .003".
[scared] OMG! Festool puts substandard tubes and bearings on its saws!!!  [jawdrop]

Excellent job, Cheese. Now attach side mounted horizontal handle and repeat the experiment...  [big grin]
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 06:07 PM by Svar »

Offline mikeomalley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2017, 06:36 PM »
Phil, your prompt and informative posts are appreciated.
Mike

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2017, 06:48 PM »
Forgive me for my lack of understanding when it comes to these posted measurements of deflection.  When measurements are taken to hundredths or thousands of an inch how does that come into play where people use pencils to mark lines and use their eyesight to gauge things?

Last time I checked the normal measuring instruments - tapes and rules - didn't have those precision marks on them.

Am I just a dinosaur in this industry?  Are my clients who are happen with my precision just plain idiots?

Just wondering.

Peter

Offline aloysius

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2017, 06:49 PM »
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?

Good point there.  When I use my Radial Arm Saw, the blade continually wants to " climb" into the work & potentially jam.  It needs to be held back (with return spring/cable assistance) and the feed rate carefully controlled in big cuts.

Radial arm saws feature both handle orientations, but my preference is for the horizontal variety.  In regard to track saws & other circular pendulum & plunge saws I think a horizontal handle would be too weird for words....  I still struggle with left-bladed circular saws.  To me it just doesn't seem right.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 06:51 PM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2017, 07:09 PM »
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?

Good point there.  When I use my Radial Arm Saw, the blade continually wants to " climb" into the work & potentially jam.  It needs to be held back (with return spring/cable assistance) and the feed rate carefully controlled in big cuts.

Radial arm saws feature both handle orientations, but my preference is for the horizontal variety.  In regard to track saws & other circular pendulum & plunge saws I think a horizontal handle would be too weird for words....  I still struggle with left-bladed circular saws.  To me it just doesn't seem right.

But left bladed circular saws offer right handed (the dominant if I read other posts here correctly) a clear sight line.  I switched back in 2002. 

Peter
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:58 PM by Peter Halle »

Offline aloysius

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2017, 07:42 PM »
I thought the aim was NOT to saw either hand off!
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2017, 07:58 PM »
I thought the aim was NOT to saw either hand off!

Modified my previous post to "offer".

Peter

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Offline aloysius

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2017, 09:04 PM »
Yes I've heard this reason before.  I believe that those wormgear driven saws so beloved of the New World are thus endowed.  Haven't ever used on, nor likely to.  Cordless saws are predominantly left bladed too, except for a long discontinued German made Metabo and a pair of cordless DeWalts that offer the choice:  I'm obviously not alone in my discomfiture.

Whether handsawing with a Sandvik or Spear & Jackson, crosscutting with a handheld electric or battery circular or cutting convoluted lines with a jigsaw, the workpiece is supported by a bench or horse, steadied with the left hand &/or knee, the tool held in the right whilst supported by the uncut portion of the workpiece:  the offcut or shortest length then falls away to the right.

How does a left bladed tool assist in this arrangement?  How does the blade orientation affect one's view?  I'm not having a go, but I simply don't understand.  If the offcut falls away, then the cutline is to the left;  if the required piece is to the right one adjusts the cutline to compensate for the kerf.  Done it this way all my life, using an "x" for the offcut and face & edge arris telltales for relevant identification.  Egyptian cabinetmaking & stonework has implemented this system for at least the past 5 thousand odd years, building some of mankind's oldest and grandest works of art.  What makes it innapropriate now?
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Scorpion

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KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2017, 09:45 PM »
Is this thread sending the wrong message?  If I were Festool and I were pondering the release of the next new thing, would I just charge more and include the bracket and everyone would be happy?

Point being, what some think is "stupid to not include" Festool may have decided "if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.  It won't make anyone feel better but I probably woulda made the 120 have an adapter too so when I release V2 I could use SYS1 height as a feature improvement .  LOL
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:48 PM by Scorpion »

Online SRSemenza

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2017, 09:48 PM »
Yes I've heard this reason before.  I believe that those wormgear driven saws so beloved of the New World are thus endowed.  Haven't ever used on, nor likely to.  Cordless saws are predominantly left bladed too, except for a long discontinued German made Metabo and a pair of cordless DeWalts that offer the choice:  I'm obviously not alone in my discomfiture.

Whether handsawing with a Sandvik or Spear & Jackson, crosscutting with a handheld electric or battery circular or cutting convoluted lines with a jigsaw, the workpiece is supported by a bench or horse, steadied with the left hand &/or knee, the tool held in the right whilst supported by the uncut portion of the workpiece:  the offcut or shortest length then falls away to the right.

How does a left bladed tool assist in this arrangement?  How does the blade orientation affect one's view?  I'm not having a go, but I simply don't understand.  If the offcut falls away, then the cutline is to the left;  if the required piece is to the right one adjusts the cutline to compensate for the kerf.  Done it this way all my life, using an "x" for the offcut and face & edge arris telltales for relevant identification.  Egyptian cabinetmaking & stonework has implemented this system for at least the past 5 thousand odd years, building some of mankind's oldest and grandest works of art.  What makes it innapropriate now?


It's the visibility  of the blade and the line. Left blade saw with right handed person means you can look directly at the blade and line without having to look over / across the saw body to the other side.

Seth

Offline Alex

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2017, 03:13 AM »
"if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.

Can you offer a logical explanation as to why these small plastic parts would cost AUS$60 / €35 / $35 while we see products with this amount of plastic in the stores for $1-$2 and you know both the manufacturer and the seller still make a profit?


Offline bobfog

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2017, 03:52 AM »
"if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.

Can you offer a logical explanation as to why these small plastic parts would cost AUS$60 / €35 / $35 while we see products with this amount of plastic in the stores for $1-$2 and you know both the manufacturer and the seller still make a profit?

(Attachment Link)

Exactly my thoughts.

I think this is one of the worst examples of Festool dining out on their name and utterly ripping off its customers for an overpriced accessory. Utterly immoral.

Offline aloysius

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2017, 04:37 AM »
Here I must take exception.  I personally don't find it immoral.  To me, it's merely "the Festo way".

Buy for a buck (or rather Reichsmark) & sell for ten, or a hundred if it's talked up enough.  There's no deception here.  The designers aren't idiots.  The last saw was designed in a particular way, by more or less the same posse I'd imagine.  To make it non-compatible is a rational, conscious decision in order to extract that essential add-on sale;  this is where the extreme profit lies.

We all know the company.  We all know it's ways.  It's a bit disingenuous to be whinging about price when these very customers have been offered some tools for giveaway prices whereas other, already established & loyal customers get charged in excess of 1000% price premium.

That North American customers wil have to pay a few pennies more for their tools (being from a special class & production run of low-volume production numbers to reflect their 3rd world voltage characteristics) is a given.  It's still a mere fraction charged for their main high volume production runs sent to long-term customers, who get justifiably punished for their loyalty.

Festo makes no secret of this.  No apologies.  No excuses either.  None are necessary.  If customers are stupid enough to accept these inequities, then it becomes both vindication and validation for these ranging & marketing decisions.  Heck, even my own (Australian) government is actively colluding in this state of affairs, with an unprecedented, exclusive & incestuous "Get out of Gaol Free" arrangement that allows behaviour that for any other corporte entity would (& has) resulted in criminal proceedings

To oblige one's customer base to pay extra, at inordinately profitable markups, for deliberately omitted features  & abilities shows in fact extraordinary gumption & corporate smarts.  The shareholder base must be delighted.  That the saw's KS 120/88 predecessors are similarly so "poorly" designed is further evidence of  Festo's corporate genius.  To create such a well featured but extremely poorly manufactured product that will require replacement at a carefully engineered age only just exceeding the warranty period shows true engineering brilliance and marketing genius that would have made the originator of the concept of planned obsolescence extremely proud.

Save a buck.  Use lightweight copper windings that are all but guaranteed to fail.  Employ the absolute cheapest quotes from the east Asian subcontractors for the componentry.  Utilise outmoded bought-in technologies like obsolete battery platforms at heavily discounted runout prices from the Asian manufacturers at a fraction of the price that the early adopters paid some 5 years previously.  Don't develop anything new.  It costs too much, and might fail.  Better to copy the successful designs of more innovative and risk-taking companies, and by lagging some 5-10 years behind (or 25 years for patented innovations) one may also avoid their mistakes.  And then pretend all is well.

It's sheer marketing genius.  Whilst you may not like it, you've got to admire their chutzpah.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 04:44 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Corwin

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2017, 05:26 AM »
And yet they let you go on like this on their forum.  [blink]

Your posts are unacceptable. Maybe you need to take a break from this.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 431
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2017, 06:15 AM »
Aloysius, is an older simpler design no longer good just because it's older? Mt c12 Nicad still works great, so well I am not rushing out to replace it with the cxs. My main router is the Dewalt dw621 which is a pretty old elu design. Some of my older hitachi nailers just cannot be beat. I still wish makita still made their old simple table saw (just add a quick release Irving knife) to drop into my Rousseau stand, I could careless about it coming with a good fence. Yes I like some new stuff, especially some new flexvolt. I just do not understand this level of hate. I think pushing festool to be better is good but really this thread is bordering on the bizarre. Some of the best tools are BORING. I would prefer boring over stupid crap like one key. I would prefer that the people making my tools could afford to hire me (no matter where they live, yes even Mexico and China). Back to the scms  discussion, in my mind all the major brands have serious flaws, you pick your poison and get to work. Makita= blade runout, soft zero bevel stop, silly bevel stops, no bevel past 45, Bosch= boat anchor, no soft start, no lasers, no light, table flatness issues, blade not parallel to arm, clunky bevel adjustment with complicated recalibration, bevel lock not solid. Dewalt= sticky slides, no soft start, tiny bushing on slides, not the best for long bevel cuts. Hitachi= (10"). Talk about a dinosaur, no 60 miter, no bevel past 45, blade guard breaks easy, fences move easy, limited capacity. Ridgid= 12" old one HEAVY, arbor issues, tracking problems, deflection. New 12" about to be recalled crazy blad shutter. 10" = bevel locking isssus, inaccurate laser, motor takes a year to get up to speed, heavy, not durable. Dewalt 10" manufacture isssues= blade not parallel to tubes, center of table lower than sides, fences not in line, bevel lock in non detentes not solid. Milwaukee 12" heavy, dust collector limits capacity, micro adjust is crap, digital bevel not acccurate, arbor leaks grease, no laser or shadow line. Milwaukee m18. Deflection in rear position, weak miter lock, less than 12" crosscut, blade not parallel to slides.
Note none have good dust collection except the Milwaukee 12".
Now are these companies evil because of these shortcomings ?
Are you evil because of your shortcomings ?
We are talking about little plastic feet and vertical handles verses horizontal ?
Deflection= are we carpenters? Woodworkers?   Cantilever can be strong but there will always be some deflection. Too abstract for you, all scms are a cantiler design, do not like go to a yard sale and pick up an old sawbuck.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2017, 06:37 AM »
@glass1
You make some valid points here about high quality but ageless designs. And the faults of others.

However if Festool market themselves as 'faster, better, best' then they have an obligation to their customers to fulfill that aim. Some here have found some shortcomings with this saw. Does that make this saw lesser in quality and design compared to SOME of its opposition. Probably not. But for the price we do expect it to be 'faster, better, best'. This is Festools slogan not mine.

Am I going to still seriously consider purchasing this saw? Yes. Meantime I look forward to some demo videos from Phil B and others.

@Corwin
Yes perhaps @aloysius is going in too hard and beyond the purposes of this thread in his statements. But re-read the fifth paragraph in his last post and you will see reflected an underlying resentment towards the behaviour of Festool's Australian Inporter that, sadly, is reflected through/underling the comments of many active Aussie members of this Forum across many Threads. Shame really because many of us also certainly appreciate a number of the tools in the Festool range.

________________
This thread has probably run its course. Sure add more if you want,, particularly if you have actually used one. Personally  I have said as much about this saw as I wish; well at least untill I maybe purchase one!

I have certainly learn't from many of the replys. Thankyou for reading or participating. Thanks again also to @Phil Beckley for representing Festool here and providing his thoughts and perspectives. Thanks also to the Mods.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 06:57 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2017, 07:12 AM »
Putting the "what should have been included in the price of the machine" aspect of this saw to one side for a minute, I got to try out the KS60 today!!!!

I had a Festool End User Manager come to see me today to demonstrate another Festool tool. He had the 240volt KS60 and the UG Adaptor Base unit with him so he set it up for me and I got to try a few trial cuts on some 75mm x 25mm soft wood.

It is certainly a quality bit of kit, as we would expect! Easy to carry around and set up (I had it set up on my MFT3).

I dont know if I would find a use for this smaller machine as I have the Kapex 120, but it is certainly more portable than its bigger brother and the cutting capacity is good considering it is a smaller saw and has a smaller blade. We only had it set up with a 27mm hose rather than the 36mm hose, but the dust extraction was also similar to its big brother.

I did'nt get to use it extensively, but my first impression is, its very good!!!!

Tim.

Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 120
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2017, 10:57 AM »
i would think for most job site work the smaller saw would be a plus and would handle the majority of work. I don't know why people have trouble with their larger kapex 120, but I'm guessing they don't let the blade get up to speed and thus have issues in the past. I always get the blades up to speed and then slowly let the blade down. I really, really like my fingers, so every time i pull the trigger i look at the path of travel.

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2017, 11:36 AM »
"if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.

Can you offer a logical explanation as to why these small plastic parts would cost AUS$60 / €35 / $35 while we see products with this amount of plastic in the stores for $1-$2 and you know both the manufacturer and the seller still make a profit?

(Attachment Link)

My point was lost probably due to my poor delivery.

My point was this - had they just came out with the 60 at a price $35 higher than what they did AND included the foot kit, complainers wouldn't have complained as much about having to also pay for the foot kit because it was included. 

Ironically many are going to complain about the cost of the saw anyway so making it more expensive and including the darn feet woulda prevented the additional complaining.

Yet from a marketing point of view, this thread is creating a bunch of discussions on a barely released product.  A volume of attention like this is difficult to pay for and we're doing the worm (the forum is a cheap marketing avenue if you ask me). 

So I'm in the fence...maybe it makes sense to separate the feet from the saw, make you pay extra for them, and create a distraction for you to complain about since most of the customer base is going to view as "petty dribble by people who are likely gonna just buy them anyway like the rest of Festool Accessories".

Hey Festool, I get you and will buy the feet even if I don't by the saw.  Please make the feet AINA.  ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 45
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2017, 03:16 AM »
All the talk about the KS60,  has anyone actually purchased one yet? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get one in so l can see it in the real world before pulling the trigger  8)

Online SRSemenza

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2017, 10:52 AM »
All the talk about the KS60,  has anyone actually purchased one yet? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get one in so l can see it in the real world before pulling the trigger  8)

Yes, see this topic .....................   http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/ks60-comments-from-an-owner/


Seth

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2017, 11:11 AM »
Discussion on vertical vs horizontal handle and deflection is here ....................... http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/kapex-vertical-handle/


Seth

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2017, 02:14 PM »
All the talk about the KS60,  has anyone actually purchased one yet? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get one in so l can see it in the real world before pulling the trigger  8)

Yes, see this topic .....................   http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/ks60-comments-from-an-owner/


Seth

I think Festool need to fire they're mitre saw team and maybe headhunt some people from Bosch, Makita, Dewalt, etc who know how to do it right.

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2017, 02:36 PM »
All the talk about the KS60,  has anyone actually purchased one yet? I'm waiting for my local dealer to get one in so l can see it in the real world before pulling the trigger  8)

Yes, see this topic .....................   http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/ks60-comments-from-an-owner/


Seth

I think Festool need to fire they're mitre saw team and maybe headhunt some people from Bosch, Makita, Dewalt, etc who know how to do it right.

.....a little harsh Bobfog  [wink]
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline mrB

  • Posts: 476
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2017, 05:56 PM »
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5053
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #109 on: February 03, 2017, 09:59 AM »
(Attachment Link)

Nice comparison photo. I've never considered the Kapex to be a large saw, but it makes the KS 60 appear to be miniature.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #110 on: February 03, 2017, 10:51 AM »
That does loo like it would be easier to carry around.

Seth

Offline joiner1970

  • Posts: 3216
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2017, 11:38 AM »
warren @toolfest.co.uk just stuck photos of some ks60's on their Facebook so maybe he might do one of his videos

Offline toolfest.co.uk

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2017, 11:54 AM »
When we get some more in, all those that arrived have gone straight out to customers. Didn't even get a peek.

W
www.toolfest.co.uk for FESTOOL products

www.systemcontainer.co.uk for TANOS products

Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 319
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2017, 05:26 PM »
Cordless would have to be a winner! :)

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2017, 03:30 PM »
Ok guys, I decided to devote a Bonus check towards the Kapex KS60 after all. So, I got it "for free" which made me choose it over the Metabo KGS 72 Xact SYM I was eyeballing - and which arguably would have been more bang for the buck had the money actually drained my wallet. 

I figured that if I don't like it it should be really easy to sell. If it turns out a Lemon I am under warranty and covered so I am not worried either way - just hoping it has been properly calibrate at the factory...

I have yet to even fire it up as I haven't been out of the workshop and bought the Kapex for field duty. I opted for the feet so I can throw down a SYS I for support but not the UG cart as I tend to like things on the light side and I have a stand for my other SCMS - no need for another one.

Only thing I have noticed so far is that IT IS RATHER HEAVY  [eek] which is what I voiced earlier in this thread. It is around five kg / 11 lbs heavier than my Makita I usually lug around and I think it is a bit of a chore carrying it in one hand for a longer walk due to the size of the saw. I look forward to putting it to use though.  [smile]
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 491
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2017, 04:14 PM »
Grattis!
Just for today..

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2017, 05:04 PM »
Du menar Gratis?  [big grin]

We'll see, I am a little more convinced than I am concerned after playing with it a little. I will post my findings if there is any interest and if anyone else does not beat me to it. I might have some crown moulding (molding for some) that needs to get done but I am not sure it will happen anytime soon.
 
I am quite sure I would not have considered the KS60 at all if I had to pay full price for it. Not even for a cordless one.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Timtool

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2017, 05:49 PM »
I'm a bit baffled by some comments in this thread, who the heck here is going to buy the basic version with no feet, laser or angle finder?
Nobody, end of discussion. They have to artificially blow up the price of these elements to make a big enough value difference between the basic and set version. Just like the KS120 and 88.

There is a very substantial difference in weight and size between the 120 and 60, giving the 60 the giant base of the 120 just so it would fit on the UG or be as high as a systainer is just plain stupid if you ask me. That would off put way more potential buyers.

Here you have a very decent medium miter saw at a rather affordable price (in Europe at least), and some start complaining about features no other saw of this type has any way. At least Festool made adapters, so really where is the problem?
BR10, MFK 700, OS 400, ETS EC 150/3, KA 65-plus,TS55R, CT22E, CTLmini, CTL MIDI, CTM 36 AC HD, Kapex KS120, ETS125, ETS150/5, RO150, RO90, CXS-set, T-15+3 set, DTS400, OF900, OF1010, OF2200 set, Carvex PS420 EBQ set, EHL 65, SSU 200, Centrotec installer set, LR32-sys, FS-800, FS-LR-1400x2, domino 500+domino sys, domino 700 XL, Surfix-sys, Sys-box 1, Syslite, LEV-350, Sys-box,MFTB/1-2-4... MFTC, MFSC

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2017, 06:48 PM »
The problem Tim is that Festool is held to a higher standard.  Much of it is because of their pricing, but some is due to their own marketing. 

Being lighter than their other saw is nice , but when you say it's a light saw I'm your marketing and it's not lighter than competitors - that's a legitimate complaint to me.

When the 120 can use a SYS1 as a material rest and marketing touts it as a feature  -but- your new saw doesn't unless some feet are purchased .   Well , call me cynical , but to me that's being disengenious to your customers -or- the project manager totally missed the boat during the design phase.  And please don't tell me it wasn't made taller to save weight.  A first year engineer could figure out the dilemma in short order.

The real issue is that on one hand FT claims to be better and more highly designed than X brand , but then seemingly has to have band aids for some of their product that customers identify right away.  I've asked this before , but don't you guys beta test this stuff before production?   And if so, with who?

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 576
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2017, 11:18 PM »
(Attachment Link)

Wonder why they chose to hang the motor to the left on the 60 when on the 120 it's to the right?

What are the dials on the feet of the 60?  Looks like locks (maybe to attach to a stand) or for leveling.  I'll put my money on locks.

Wonder why they didn't include bosses in the design so they could incorporate the material clamps like they include on the 120?  Usually a manufacturer takes every advantage to leverage an existing accessory when they can.

The head lock is in a different place.  On the 120 it's actuated by the thumb.  The 60 appears to be actuated by the heal of the hand.  Is that true or is the picture?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1524
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #120 on: February 12, 2017, 12:45 AM »
Wonder why they chose to hang the motor to the left on the 60 when on the 120 it's to the right?
KS120 is gear drive, rotor is 90 deg to the arbor. KS60 is belt drive, rotor is parallel to the arbor.
OK, that still does not explain why.

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1524
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #121 on: February 12, 2017, 01:14 AM »
When the 120 can use a SYS1 as a material rest and marketing touts it as a feature  -but- your new saw doesn't unless some feet are purchased .   Well , call me cynical , but to me that's being disengenious to your customers -or- the project manager totally missed the boat during the design phase.  And please don't tell me it wasn't made taller to save weight.  A first year engineer could figure out the dilemma in short order.
Is there no value in having the table as low as possible? Could that be a preference of floor installers? I'd rather have it this way with the ability to raise to the hight of my choice, than have it cast high with no ability to lower it. Just a food for thought.
Of course some kind of pull up/flip up feet stored on board would be a sensible solution. But frankly, matching a systainer is my #143 on the list of what I want from a SCMS.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 01:17 AM by Svar »

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #122 on: February 12, 2017, 02:37 AM »
I'm a bit baffled by some comments in this thread, who the heck here is going to buy the basic version with no feet, laser or angle finder?
Nobody, end of discussion. They have to artificially blow up the price of these elements to make a big enough value difference between the basic and set version. Just like the KS120 and 88.

There is a very substantial difference in weight and size between the 120 and 60, giving the 60 the giant base of the 120 just so it would fit on the UG or be as high as a systainer is just plain stupid if you ask me. That would off put way more potential buyers.

Here you have a very decent medium miter saw at a rather affordable price (in Europe at least), and some start complaining about features no other saw of this type has any way. At least Festool made adapters, so really where is the problem?

I am a bit baffled by your posting. In this thread you get a few potential customer (some professional user) thoughts on the machine, execution of concept, pricing, compatibility and weight. The verdict is that it isn't all that impressive.
Good, yes, but not impressive. As for the european pricing I am not sure of that - the dealers over here think it is way too expensive and apparently most clients too (as told by Swedens top seller of Festool equipment). Festool pricing is better over here but so is much of the competition too. Still it does sell well as Festool users are fairly brand loyal and often get the product despite price/performance.  Just look at ME [big grin].

Still, I think the saw is a little too heavy for such a small blade size and cut capacity. It matters squat to me that it is smaller/lighter than the 120. Should it be compared to its larger sibling or to the competition for that blade size?

I think Festool worked a little against their principles on this one (compatibility, agility, cut size, weight etc) which led to a slight compromise. This saw is no "game changer" in any way. It is not innovative either as the blade shadow has been made long ago by DeWalt (XPS Shadow line cut indicator). Festool KS60 is "bettered" in terms of innovation (blade cut indicator has been done before), weight (lighter saws with same and better capacity already exist), cut capacity is lower than smaller and lighter saws and cost; it is one of the most, if not THE most expensive saw in its class. Is it the best in class? I don't know. Define "best". It isn't the most capable, nor the most portable.   

We'll see if this saw is a keeper  - once acquired and used I don't ponder the initial cost but if performance/handling isn'better than my old Makita it will have to go. I think the build quality seems excellent though.   :)

EDITED POOR GRAMMAR AND INCOMPLETE SENTENCES - HARD TO WRITE WITH A PUPPY IN THE LAP AND A CAT WALKING OVER THE KEYBOARD...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 06:52 AM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Timtool

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2017, 05:39 AM »
The problem Tim is that Festool is held to a higher standard.  Much of it is because of their pricing, but some is due to their own marketing. 

Being lighter than their other saw is nice , but when you say it's a light saw I'm your marketing and it's not lighter than competitors - that's a legitimate complaint to me.

When the 120 can use a SYS1 as a material rest and marketing touts it as a feature  -but- your new saw doesn't unless some feet are purchased .   Well , call me cynical , but to me that's being disengenious to your customers -or- the project manager totally missed the boat during the design phase.  And please don't tell me it wasn't made taller to save weight.  A first year engineer could figure out the dilemma in short order.

The real issue is that on one hand FT claims to be better and more highly designed than X brand , but then seemingly has to have band aids for some of their product that customers identify right away.  I've asked this before , but don't you guys beta test this stuff before production?   And if so, with who?

But again, the laser, height blocks and angle finder are all comprised in the set version, which is the standard version 99,9% of the people will buy, I have never seen a KS88 in my life, I think they even don't sell that in the US and chances are they will only offer the KS60 set in the US as well.

The only practical reason one would buy a KS60 over KS120 is reduced size and weight, it does just that. I was planning on eventually incorporating a KS60 in a wall rack, the reduced height is a bonus in my situation and if I need it to be as tall as my KS120 then I can just install the blocks that are supplied. That is a non-issue for me as I am just glad they offer the possibility to get this saw in a tighter space.

The let down for me would be that this saw was supposed to show how the future KS120 might be like, and it turns out the KS60 doesn't really offer any substantial improvements on a 10 year old design which makes me believe they have nothing in store for a new KS120.
BR10, MFK 700, OS 400, ETS EC 150/3, KA 65-plus,TS55R, CT22E, CTLmini, CTL MIDI, CTM 36 AC HD, Kapex KS120, ETS125, ETS150/5, RO150, RO90, CXS-set, T-15+3 set, DTS400, OF900, OF1010, OF2200 set, Carvex PS420 EBQ set, EHL 65, SSU 200, Centrotec installer set, LR32-sys, FS-800, FS-LR-1400x2, domino 500+domino sys, domino 700 XL, Surfix-sys, Sys-box 1, Syslite, LEV-350, Sys-box,MFTB/1-2-4... MFTC, MFSC

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2017, 06:48 AM »
TimTools wrote:

"The let down for me would be that this saw was supposed to show how the future KS120 might be like, and it turns out the KS60 doesn't really offer any substantial improvements on a 10 year old design which makes me believe they have nothing in store for a new KS120."

Yes, I share that sentiment. Even though it seems that I dislike the KS60 I simply think that it brings nothing "new" to the market, nothing that stands out in a very crowded segment and for the cost of the saw it is (IMO) hardly a bargain - perhaps even a little over the top. It might still be a truly great saw. :)

I am not a long term KS120 user so I can't really say what they should improve on.  I can't see why anyone would choose a KS88 over the KS120, I think the KS88 is redundant in the line up. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 06:54 AM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2017, 07:03 AM »
When the 120 can use a SYS1 as a material rest and marketing touts it as a feature  -but- your new saw doesn't unless some feet are purchased .   Well , call me cynical , but to me that's being disengenious to your customers -or- the project manager totally missed the boat during the design phase.  And please don't tell me it wasn't made taller to save weight.  A first year engineer could figure out the dilemma in short order.
Is there no value in having the table as low as possible? Could that be a preference of floor installers? I'd rather have it this way with the ability to raise to the hight of my choice, than have it cast high with no ability to lower it. Just a food for thought.
Of course some kind of pull up/flip up feet stored on board would be a sensible solution. But frankly, matching a systainer is my #143 on the list of what I want from a SCMS.

I do floors at times and there is no difference between having a low or a SYS I height base for the SCMS - the difference is seldom more than 3 to 4cm based on the saws I have/have used. I need/want a support either way and if I can use a SYS I (of which I have many) it makes life a lot easier as the SYS I doubles up as support and for carrying miscellaneous items which I would have brought anyway. It is the same hassle - and sometimes more - if I need to carry a support for the SCMS that I have no further use for other than support. Or, have to make a make shift support out of scrap every time.

I actually carry less with the SYS I option. Makes sense?
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Timtool

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2017, 09:32 AM »

I do floors at times and there is no difference between having a low or a SYS I height base for the SCMS - the difference is seldom more than 3 to 4cm based on the saws I have/have used. I need/want a support either way and if I can use a SYS I (of which I have many) it makes life a lot easier as the SYS I doubles up as support and for carrying miscellaneous items which I would have brought anyway. It is the same hassle - and sometimes more - if I need to carry a support for the SCMS that I have no further use for other than support. Or, have to make a make shift support out of scrap every time.

I actually carry less with the SYS I option. Makes sense?

But we do agree that if you were to buy the KS60, you would obviously go for the set, if only because of the lasers and angle finder without which it's basically useless. So you would mount the supplied feet under the base on the first day and the problem is completely over.
I think the problem here comes mainly from a choice of words, with the KS120-88 everybody here knows the 88 is a stripped down unnecessary version for god knows who. Nobody complains since it's redundant.
But by making the KS60 and KS60-set Festool probably confused people by making them pay more for features that should be standard. The set version should be the basic version, and the basic version should be advertised as a stripped down version or even better, kicked out of the line all together.
BR10, MFK 700, OS 400, ETS EC 150/3, KA 65-plus,TS55R, CT22E, CTLmini, CTL MIDI, CTM 36 AC HD, Kapex KS120, ETS125, ETS150/5, RO150, RO90, CXS-set, T-15+3 set, DTS400, OF900, OF1010, OF2200 set, Carvex PS420 EBQ set, EHL 65, SSU 200, Centrotec installer set, LR32-sys, FS-800, FS-LR-1400x2, domino 500+domino sys, domino 700 XL, Surfix-sys, Sys-box 1, Syslite, LEV-350, Sys-box,MFTB/1-2-4... MFTC, MFSC

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2017, 11:49 AM »
Ah, I totally get your point now. Yes, I agree and I did get the set version myself.
I intend to mount the feet and keep them on. :)

I won't get the UG stand for it as I have very limited use for it and I don't even have the floor space for it in my tool storage at the moment.

I will try to post some photos and thoughts on the KS60 in operation next week and I think it is best if there is a new thread started as I feel this thread isn't really going anywhere. A fresh start with input would perhaps be welcome instead of the slight bickering in this thread - myself included.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2017, 12:27 PM »
Hi Everyone

I was able to have a play with the KS60 the other day and am doing my best to borrow one in order to make a video.

My first reaction was that Festool have created a machine that has a price point and design that could capture a sizeable share of the market and may tempt many to choose it rather than the KS120. The feet or lack of feet is a non issue really. The LED shadow line has to be seen to appreciate the clarity and functionality - I am sure that I am likely to conclude that it beats twin lasers. The 305 x 60 cut capacity will be enough for a large number of people. The +60 deg and - 60 deg mitre is brilliant and 47 deg/46 deg bevel is really good too.

The discussion of the feet not being in the kit is very telling. In the UK they are about £28 for the set. They are injection moulded and having had some kit like this done for me years ago the tooling does not come cheap. So I am sure that Festool have had to amortise the tooling cost across a projected market demand and then allow for warehousing, packaging and so on. This starts to make £28 look not so bad frankly. I am sure that they are not part of the basic kit so that the weight is kept down.

If that price is deemed to be crazy then I would challenge anyone to set themselves up to produce something similar and try and make a profit.

Any craftsman worried can easily make up a set for his or herself and probably do it in a matter of minutes. But then there are many professionals who would earn more in that time doing their day job and so will take the easy route and buy a set.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 01:21 PM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline bobfog

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2017, 01:01 PM »
Hi Everyone

I was able to have a play with the KS60 the other day and am doing my best to borrow one in order to make a video.

My first reaction was that Festool have created a machine that has a price point and design that could capture a sizeable share of the market and may tempt many to choose it rather than the KS120. The feet or lack of feet is a non issue really. The LED shadow line has to be seen to appreciate the clarity and functionality - I am sure that I am likely to conclude that it beats twin lasers. The 305 x 60 cut capacity will be enough for a large number of people. The +60 deg and - 60 deg mitre is brilliant and 47 deg/46 deg bevel is really good too.

The discussion of the feet not being in the kit is very telling. In the UK they are about £28 for the set. They are injection moulded and having had some kit like this done for me years ago the tooling does not come cheap. So I am sure that Festool have had to amortise the tooling cost across a projected market demand and then allow for warehousing, packaging and so on. This starts to make £28 look not so bad frankly. I am sure that they are not part of the basic kit so that the weight is kept down.

If that price is deemed to be crazy then I would challenge anyone to set themselves up to produce something similar and try and make a profit.

Anyone craftsman worried can easily make up a set for his or herself and probably do it in a matter of minutes. But then there are many professionals who would earn more in that time doing their day job and so will take the easy route and buy a set.

Peter

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 01:15 PM by bobfog »

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2017, 01:17 PM »
Hi Everyone

I was able to have a play with the KS60 the other day and am doing my best to borrow one in order to make a video.

My first reaction was that Festool have created a machine that has a price point and design that could capture a sizeable share of the market and may tempt many to choose it rather than the KS120. The feet or lack of feet is a non issue really. The LED shadow line has to be seen to appreciate the clarity and functionality - I am sure that I am likely to conclude that it beats twin lasers. The 305 x 60 cut capacity will be enough for a large number of people. The +60 deg and - 60 deg mitre is brilliant and 47 deg/46 deg bevel is really good too.

The discussion of the feet not being in the kit is very telling. In the UK they are about £28 for the set. They are injection moulded and having had some kit like this done for me years ago the tooling does not come cheap. So I am sure that Festool have had to amortise the tooling cost across a projected market demand and then allow for warehousing, packaging and so on. This starts to make £28 look not so bad frankly. I am sure that they are not part of the basic kit so that the weight is kept down.

If that price is deemed to be crazy then I would challenge anyone to set themselves up to produce something similar and try and make a profit.

Anyone craftsman worried can easily make up a set for his or herself and probably do it in a matter of minutes. But then there are many professionals who would earn more in that time doing their day job and so will take the easy route and buy a set.

Peter

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and a accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth is going to be a very niche product IMO.


....which DeWalt do you refer to? The KS60 is 17.8kg....some of the weight comes from the casting that runs the twin column guides = accuracy and one of the critical areas for any SCMS. The RRP of the set version is here https://www.festool.co.uk/Products/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?pid=561729&name=Sliding-compound-mitre-saw-KAPEX-KS-60-E-SET-GB-240V
   Add on to this the Service all Inclusive policy for three years, a saw that can be added to and with accuracy, takes up very little space front to back....and after using it for the past 6 months I can say it is an excellent Festool product that will provide our segment of the market the machine they need from us.....and the angle finder improvements are a neat move as well....and another feature that can save a lot of time and hassle that is not available on competitor machines.
rg
Phil
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 01:29 PM by Phil Beckley »
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2017, 01:19 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2017, 01:39 PM »
Hi
 For those who haven't seen a decent side view of the KS 60. A pity about the title of the thread as it has focused on the feet.....maybe taking a look at the overall package will give a better impression  [smile] and then we can look at the features.
(Maybe Peter or Seth can adjust the image please  [wink])
.......

« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 02:06 PM by Peter Halle »
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2017, 02:56 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Would touching it and pressing the trigger make it cheaper, lighter or increase the depth of cut?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2017, 03:09 PM »
Hi Everyone

I was able to have a play with the KS60 the other day and am doing my best to borrow one in order to make a video.

My first reaction was that Festool have created a machine that has a price point and design that could capture a sizeable share of the market and may tempt many to choose it rather than the KS120. The feet or lack of feet is a non issue really. The LED shadow line has to be seen to appreciate the clarity and functionality - I am sure that I am likely to conclude that it beats twin lasers. The 305 x 60 cut capacity will be enough for a large number of people. The +60 deg and - 60 deg mitre is brilliant and 47 deg/46 deg bevel is really good too.

The discussion of the feet not being in the kit is very telling. In the UK they are about £28 for the set. They are injection moulded and having had some kit like this done for me years ago the tooling does not come cheap. So I am sure that Festool have had to amortise the tooling cost across a projected market demand and then allow for warehousing, packaging and so on. This starts to make £28 look not so bad frankly. I am sure that they are not part of the basic kit so that the weight is kept down.

If that price is deemed to be crazy then I would challenge anyone to set themselves up to produce something similar and try and make a profit.

Any craftsman worried can easily make up a set for his or herself and probably do it in a matter of minutes. But then there are many professionals who would earn more in that time doing their day job and so will take the easy route and buy a set.

Peter

 - problem is that FT should not have needed a band-aid or an injection molding expense in then first place.   What leads you to believe that the 60 will capture a sizable portion of the market?  Especially if it cannibalizes sales from the 120 ?   [scratch chin] 

And, I reiterate - why should a craftsman buying a Festool need to engineer/make something to get their Festool  to work with the rest of their Festool "system" ?  With that kind of ingenuity there's really no need for a Festool in the first place except as a status symbol.

Furthermore, how long do we think those protruding plastic feet are going to last when said craftsmen start takeing these in and out of their Transits and F150's ?  I can just see a thread now about it just like the recent one about the CT hose garages breaking. 


« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 03:17 PM by antss »

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2017, 03:29 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Would touching it and pressing the trigger make it cheaper, lighter or increase the depth of cut?


...no it wouldn't. The price is for the dealer to sort, the weight will stay at 17.8kg and the depth of cut will stay at 60mm with a 305 cut for the width. Some things are a given such as the weight and the capacity so no matter how much talk there is it isn't going to change  [smile].....
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #136 on: February 12, 2017, 03:35 PM »
Hi Everyone

I was able to have a play with the KS60 the other day and am doing my best to borrow one in order to make a video.

My first reaction was that Festool have created a machine that has a price point and design that could capture a sizeable share of the market and may tempt many to choose it rather than the KS120. The feet or lack of feet is a non issue really. The LED shadow line has to be seen to appreciate the clarity and functionality - I am sure that I am likely to conclude that it beats twin lasers. The 305 x 60 cut capacity will be enough for a large number of people. The +60 deg and - 60 deg mitre is brilliant and 47 deg/46 deg bevel is really good too.

The discussion of the feet not being in the kit is very telling. In the UK they are about £28 for the set. They are injection moulded and having had some kit like this done for me years ago the tooling does not come cheap. So I am sure that Festool have had to amortise the tooling cost across a projected market demand and then allow for warehousing, packaging and so on. This starts to make £28 look not so bad frankly. I am sure that they are not part of the basic kit so that the weight is kept down.

If that price is deemed to be crazy then I would challenge anyone to set themselves up to produce something similar and try and make a profit.

Any craftsman worried can easily make up a set for his or herself and probably do it in a matter of minutes. But then there are many professionals who would earn more in that time doing their day job and so will take the easy route and buy a set.

Peter

 - problem is that FT should not have needed a band-aid or an injection molding expense in then first place.   What leads you to believe that the 60 will capture a sizable portion of the market?  Especially if it cannibalizes sales from the 120 ?   [scratch chin] 

And, I reiterate - why should a craftsman buying a Festool need to engineer/make something to get their Festool  to work with the rest of their Festool "system" ?  With that kind of ingenuity there's really no need for a Festool in the first place except as a status symbol.

Furthermore, how long do we think those protruding plastic feet are going to last when said craftsmen start takeing these in and out of their Transits and F150's ?  I can just see a thread now about it just like the recent one about the CT hose garages breaking.


.....the less base casting then less weight there is, maybe the feet are used to save on the overall KG's....so not to bad a solution after all. Keeps the height correct for the 'System' and saves some weight. In terms of accuracy then yes there is a need for this machine.....it cuts accurately with no deflection due to the twin column guides and this also keeps it compact so again another plus for the KS60.
RG
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2017, 03:36 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Would touching it and pressing the trigger make it cheaper, lighter or increase the depth of cut?


...no it wouldn't. The price is for the dealer to sort, the weight will stay at 17.8kg and the depth of cut will stay at 60mm with a 305 cut for the width. Some things are a given such as the weight and the capacity so no matter how much talk there is it isn't going to change  [smile].....
rg
Phil

@Phil Beckley thanks for the clarification. I suspected this might be the case, but it's always nice to have an official response from Festool, even if it is just reiterating the laws of physics! [wink]

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2017, 03:38 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Would touching it and pressing the trigger make it cheaper, lighter or increase the depth of cut?


...no it wouldn't. The price is for the dealer to sort, the weight will stay at 17.8kg and the depth of cut will stay at 60mm with a 305 cut for the width. Some things are a given such as the weight and the capacity so no matter how much talk there is it isn't going to change  [smile].....
rg
Phil

@Phil Beckley thanks for the clarification. I suspected this might be the case, but it's always nice to have an official response from Festool, even if it is just reiterating the laws of physics! [wink]

....excellent, we can move on then  [smile]
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2017, 03:40 PM »

Really??

It's £619 for the Set version, for a 216mm saw! Sure it's got some additional features compared to other saws of the same size, but WOW, is it expensive, even by Festool standards.

When you consider other big reputable brands start their 216mm at around the £200 mark I think £619 is rich! Also at more or less 18KG, I think they've actually hit the post with one of the critical features of a 216mm saw - lightweight and easily portable. Dewalt have one that comes in at 11.5KG, so whilst some of the additional features of the Ks 60 are unique and very useful, all that good work is overshadowed by the fundamental feature of low-weight being omitted.

The KS120 is understandable as people are prepared £900 for a supposedly ultimate mitre saw with such good cutting capacity and  accuracy in one tool, but the KS60 with only 60mm of cut depth and @600+ price tag, is going to be a very niche product IMO.

You might be right but have you actually touched one and pressed the trigger?

Peter

Would touching it and pressing the trigger make it cheaper, lighter or increase the depth of cut?


...no it wouldn't. The price is for the dealer to sort, the weight will stay at 17.8kg and the depth of cut will stay at 60mm with a 305 cut for the width. Some things are a given such as the weight and the capacity so no matter how much talk there is it isn't going to change  [smile].....
rg
Phil

@Phil Beckley thanks for the clarification. I suspected this might be the case, but it's always nice to have an official response from Festool, even if it is just reiterating the laws of physics! [wink]

....excellent, we can move on then  [smile]
rg
Phil

Indeed, now we have established Peter's question was moot and removed from the point I was making...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 03:42 PM by bobfog »

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2017, 03:42 PM »
Hi!

I was at one of my Festool dealers on Friday to pick up the 2017 catalog and maybe play a bit with the new KS60. Sadly they finally gave in to a steady and very noticeable shift in their customer base from carpenters, cabinet makers and framers to drywallers, masons, painters so they won't be stocking the Kapex line anymore. So I left with just the catalog.

My hope is my other Festool dealer and I also hope he will be hosting a small event again where I and others can try the KS60 - looking very forward to it.

From what I see in pictures I like the KS60!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2017, 03:45 PM »
Hi
 The KS60 will be at the forthcoming exhibitions and shows through the Spring and Summer in the UK. If you have the opportunity and time come along and try it out for yourself - also watch out for the reviews that are starting to come through as well.
  I will be demonstrating the KS60 at the next event we attend all the way through starting with the set version  [big grin] (including the feet) and ending up with the XL version  [scared].....
Look forward to seeing some of you at the shows so introduce yourself...
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline antss

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2017, 04:04 PM »
.....the less base casting then less weight there is, maybe the feet are used to save on the overall KG's....so not to bad a solution after all. Keeps the height correct for the 'System' and saves some weight. In terms of accuracy then yes there is a need for this machine.....it cuts accurately with no deflection due to the twin column guides and this also keeps it compact so again another plus for the KS60.


Phil,
this just sound like sales drivel.

I have a twin rail saw that's a lot lighter than a ks60 and it cost all of 80 quid !  And I think you mean say the KS60 has acceptable deflection don't you ?  There's a thread round here recently when I think @Cheese showed that one can deflect any mitersaw a measurable amount- which isn't none.  At the end of the day pretty much all mitersaws can and will cut a piece of wood accurately enough for carpentry jobs that we do. 

We're not building Formula1 engines that require infinitesimal amounts of precision.

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2017, 04:15 PM »
.....the less base casting then less weight there is, maybe the feet are used to save on the overall KG's....so not to bad a solution after all. Keeps the height correct for the 'System' and saves some weight. In terms of accuracy then yes there is a need for this machine.....it cuts accurately with no deflection due to the twin column guides and this also keeps it compact so again another plus for the KS60.


Phil,
this just sound like sales drivel.

I have a twin rail saw that's a lot lighter than a ks60 and it cost all of 80 quid !  And I think you mean say the KS60 has acceptable deflection don't you ?  There's a thread round here recently when I think @Cheese showed that one can deflect any mitersaw a measurable amount- which isn't none.  At the end of the day pretty much all mitersaws can and will cut a piece of wood accurately enough for carpentry jobs that we do. 

We're not building Formula1 engines that require infinitesimal amounts of precision.

...sales drivel maybe but then again I do work for Festool so will defend the product...and it is based on experience of using it over a decent amount of time....I am from the trade as well so I do not treat Festool machines as objects of desire, they are there to be worked hard the KS60 included.....along with the rest of the range.
  Ok, as for specifics - acceptable amount of deflection yes. But it also comes down to the build quality - any SCMS if pushed down on the head hard enough or side to side will deflect - including the £80 one you have. With the KS120 and the 60 this is negated as much as possible due the build standard and the twin column guides - the deflection will be absolutely minimal if used correctly and not forced.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline antss

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2017, 05:10 PM »
I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.   That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #145 on: February 12, 2017, 05:24 PM »
I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.   That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

.....I will keep the KS 60 and by-pass the £80 machine thank you  [wink]. I did with the KS60 as I do with all new machines - find a project and work it to the capacity stated and a bit further if I can....as a trainer I have to. I back the KS60 100%.....including the feet  [wink]. Sure Festool is held to a high standard and should be and the KS60 for 216mm market is ahead of the competition.
   The KS60 is available as a 110v version and is available to UK dealers now
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #146 on: February 12, 2017, 05:26 PM »
I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.   That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

Does this argument about £80 machines also apply to the cars or vans that people drive?

Does anyone remember the Trabants rolling into Germany after the Wall came down? I could get quite a few of them for the price of my car. Is there a similar thing going on between guys with Sprinters and those...less well appointed vehicles?

Now I have thrown that into the pot I am off to bed.

Good night everyone.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:29 PM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline mrB

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2017, 06:22 PM »
Would love to see a @Peter Parfitt review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2017, 06:39 PM »
Would love to see a @Peter Parfitt review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

....I will be arranging a machine for Peter to review as soon as possible.
rg
Phil

(it will be on a loan basis and once the review is complete the machine comes back to Festool)
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2017, 06:43 PM »
Would love to see a @Peter Parfitt review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

....I will be arranging a machine for Peter to review as soon as possible.
rg
Phil

(it will be on a loan basis and once the review is complete the machine comes back to Festool)

Gosh, that is great news Phil - many thanks.

Peter

Offline glass1

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2017, 06:45 PM »
Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2017, 06:48 PM »
Would love to see a @Peter Parfitt review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..
That is the last time I leave the iPhone next to the bed...

I have had several cheap and cheerful saws in my time as well as some very cheap and not so clever cars. For me the KS120 is a "Rolls Royce" of a saw. It would be nice to think that the KS60 was the "BMW" but then aren't they one and the same thing?

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2017, 06:53 PM »
Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

I think that people should get to a store and see a demo as soon as they come to their area. I always advise people to go and look at and, if they can, try equipment. Nobody can cover everything in a review and sometimes users have their own very clear and firm set ideas about certain aspects which might not apply to or be spotted by a reviewer.

Peter

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2017, 07:14 PM »
At the risk of waking @Peter Parfitt from his beauty sleep! Oh I just did! 😈 [eek]

Last week I visited my dealer to purchase some dust bags. There it was, the KS60 on display. Yes the build quality was obviously excellent. The movement smooth and action smooth. Could not switch it on though and I had limited time.

 Will this probably be my next Festool purchase - likely, but there is also an ageing CT22 to replace soon.

Do I still think my original criticisms of the table height were justified? Well after reading this post for nearly a month now, with some others raising other critical elements, some of which I agree, others definitely not - Yes I do!


If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline antss

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2017, 07:26 PM »
I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.   That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

Does this argument about £80 machines also apply to the cars or vans that people drive?

Does anyone remember the Trabants rolling into Germany after the Wall came down? I could get quite a few of them for the price of my car. Is there a similar thing going on between guys with Sprinters and those...less well appointed vehicles?

Now I have thrown that into the pot I am off to bed.

Good night everyone.

Peter


Of course. 

Both will get you where you want to go, but no one will mistake it for a Benz.  But when that Benz doesn't quite live up to the Benz moniker.....................................and the ads and salesmen keep on that they do. It'd be like saying it's (benz)  fast and light and has great boot space and is high quality and the Traubi actually having more boot space, and going as fast and being as light.  That's the corundum I've posed. 

And to be fair, the 80q saw I'm talking about will way outlast a Traubi and is much closer in fit & finish and quality to the Kapex than a Traubi was to any Western produced car.   It might just outlast a ks60 in 110v if FT hasn't made changes to those motors.  I'm sure none of us want a thread titled "KS60 motor failures" .  Which brings me back to the quality vs. price issue.  It's one thing to say something is better made, but when the failure rate data doesn't seem to back that up - people get antsy.

You guys want to wax on about how how light ks60 is; and accurate; and has a light , and fits the system - and seem to take offense when ACTUAL festool customers tell you kinda missed the system boat, competitors' saws are lighter and have more capacity - to which you respond "well there's the FT quality" which might very well be dubious given big brother kapex's woes.  That's the stuff people get frustrated with - the lack of acknowledgement that there even MIGHT BE something the designers overlooked or didn't match on the competition, or that quality could be an issue.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:39 PM by antss »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2017, 07:31 PM »
The pain of cost is gone long before the bitterness of poor quality.

Cost and value are two different things.

http://www.librarypoint.org/yugo_vuic

Tom

Offline antss

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2017, 07:41 PM »
That cost pain may not have subsided if you have a burned out Kapex
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:44 PM by antss »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2017, 08:16 PM »
Wow.  Such heated conversations when so few have even touched the tool.

Peter

Offline Cheese

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2017, 10:07 PM »
Ya well, so far it's all he said...she said...but it's all about putting your paws on the saw before weighing in.

This is an important "come to Jesus time..." Some of these items seem clunky until you use them, some of these items seem like the next hurrah until you use them. You have to touch it and use it before your opinion can carry any weight. Anything short of that is just blowing smoke up someone's pooper.

Offline Timtool

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2017, 02:44 AM »
@antss
So basically you would be happy if the KS60 would cost as much as the cheapest competitor, be as big as the KS120 for compatibility issues, but also be smaller and lighter than the smallest and lightest competitor while maintaining the same accuracy and solidity as the KS120, all while being made by people in the west who are paid fair wages, instead of far eastern modern slaves?

At some point you will have to agree that combination isn't possible, and that a solid and accurate saw made in Germany is going to weigh and cost more than the cheapest lightest made in China one out there.
Yes there is a lack of serious innovation, but my KS120 is now 10 years old and honestly nobody has come up with a better package, neither did Festool themselves with the KS60. Maybe that just tells how good the 120 really still is.
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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2017, 02:55 AM »
Ok, I actually own the saw now so at least I can _weigh in_ with some user input. Pun intended.

Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

This statement is partially not true. It is _not_ a lightweight saw. It is actually quite heavy! The closest competitor is the Metabo KGS 72 Xact without the SYM feature - it is lighter, a whole lot cheaper, has better cut capacity and is more or less the same construction as the Kapex KS60 with dual bevel and no back protrusion when cutting. Then there are same class saws that are considerably lighter than the Metabo. The first negative I experienced with the KS60 is that it is heavier than expected.

60 degree miters is good to have, but how often would you actually use it? I think I have never needed to go past 50 and my old, much lighter Makita does 57, has no dual bevel but better cut capacity at around 5kg/11lbs less. The Makita I carry in one hand easily.  Some of my toolboxes are even heavier than the KS60 and I lug them around all the time but I can hold them closer to the body and carry one on each side. The KS60 makes for a very lopsided walk unless you use both hands. 

I did own the KS120 but it was too big for me as I worked mostly on site and very seldom needed that cut capacity so for the most part I took the Makita and it did well. The KS60 for me will hopefully be the right size cut capacity and the accuracy I am hoping to get out of it. Weight does bother me a little though. 

EDIT: I agree with Timtools that the KS120 was very innovative when it came out. The KS60 does not do much when it comes to upholding that legacy. Shadow line cut has already been done so I don't see the innovation here, really. Metabo would in that case be _more_ innovative with incorporating the SYM feature in a sliding saw. You can also use the SYM feature to go waaaaaaay past 60 degrees. ;)

Conclusion is that I do think the KS60 is overpriced. It may still be a great little cousin to the KS120 although it feels more of a little cousin to the KS88.

Enough ranting, I am actually off to _using_ the KS60 now.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:04 AM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
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Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline fuzzy logic

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2017, 05:25 AM »
Look like could be really useful size saw for a lot people. 
Always liked idea of 'shadow line' against lasers. 

With some hesitation - am wondering when will start to get some input from Mrs. Parfitt.  [unsure]
Might have some helpful things to say about Mr. Parfitts's borrowed, for review, tools - just curious. 

Richard (UK)
Decent people do the right thing - always?

Offline ach_78

  • Posts: 47
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2017, 08:37 AM »
Just like german car makers are especially greedy on options, Festool is especially greedy on accessories.
Most of them are ridiculously priced. Yes, ridiculously. Now these KS60 feet are no exception.

Not better or worse that most of the accessories product line...

Offline Jimdude

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2017, 09:07 AM »
For those who haven't seen a decent side view of the KS 60.
(Attachment Link)
Disclaimer: the KS60 is the saw I'm most likely (*) going to buy when my current slider goes "poof". The form factor is just about perfect for my needs, I know I'll love the accuracy, and the cost… well, it costs more but not that much more than the alternative (which is of course the Metabo) - this spoken from a hobbyist perspective who'll "devalue" this purchase over 20 years or so. So, for less than 20 bucks per year, spread over 20 years, I get to look at a Festool in my basement (well, apart from looking at it, I'd use it too!). I'm sure that makes me a tool-snob, which is fine by me. I'm supposed to enjoy myself when I'm woodworking, and part of ~my~ enjoyment comes from using good tools. This will be different for other people, and I'm happy for them (slightly envious too, since their hobby will be cheaper than mine!).

So, that said: the example mitres on that KS60-stand are an insult to Festool. The bottom left one does not even appear to be a straight cut. The mitre is open on both ends.


(*) It's 100% certainty at the moment, but knowing my "luck", my current saw is going to last another 20 years, by which time there might be better alternatives than the KS60.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2017, 11:08 AM »
Having just read thru this thread (the title put me off for a while), a couple of things come to mind:

Even if your products conform to a 'system' there are times when one has to leave that behind & move forward. Eg I don't remember there being this much furore when the MFT/3 launched. That was quite a step forward from the earlier models: different size, different profile, and even A FEW CENTIMETERS higher. Why weren't all users of the older models clamoring for height adapters, etc.? Well, at least the holes were the same!  [tongue]

Innovation. There are only so much ways to combine a motor, a blade and other stuff. After the real invention has happened, the rest is modification (eg the iPhone). If you want 'innovation' first and foremost, you will have to wait for the first consumer grade waterjet wood cutter.   [wink]
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2017, 03:36 AM »


I know, I know, I know!!!  [eek]
See Reply #1

Well I put the little feet on, got out a Sys 1 and you know what? The first cut was 90 degrees vertically and horizontally! Straight out of the box. Dust collection too,  was great [36mm hose]. [smile]

I noted that it has the TS 'growler' noise, which is good to know technically.

Next week will be the real test as I cut and fit Merbu decking.

@Kev @Peter Parfitt @David Stanton. @Phil Beckley
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 06:24 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2017, 03:42 AM »
Reaction to my first day of real use.

Extending a deck, and today cutting and installing Merbu. The saw is certainly a joy to use; precisely cutting the timber with ease. With 36mm hose and Vac the dust extraction is excellent. Only ctricism so far [except for those feet] is the blade light is useless when working outside. Oh, and the angle finder does not appear to have a home within the saw as is the case with the KS120. Can someone please enlighten me on this if I am wrong here. @David Stanton

Speaking of the angle finder, unlike the 120 whose angle finder relies on the lasers, or so I have read; the KS60 hase.markings for this. Improvement here over the KS120 when working in bright light conditions outside.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 05:37 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 45
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2017, 05:11 AM »
@Untidy Shop I think you will find a home for the angle finder on the base at the back of the saw. Good to see a positive comments on a kapex  ;)  :)

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2672
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2017, 05:30 AM »
Thanks @Harry1561  will investigate that further in the morning [AEST].
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #169 on: April 09, 2017, 03:45 PM »
Hi Everyone

I think it was in this thread that the brake or no brake topic came up. I cannot remember the context and I am unable to read every post to find out. However....

I am in the middle of filming the KS60 videos and have done a side by side test of the KS120 and KS60 starting and stopping. I found, and it will be shown twice on my video, that they start and reach full speed in the same time and stop in the same time.

Expect the first of the videos in about 10 days.

Peter

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #170 on: April 09, 2017, 07:18 PM »
Agree @Peter Parfitt

Now that I own one, I can report that the blade stops very quickly. I am very happy with this purchase so far.  [smile] Dust collection with 36mm hose is excellent, and the standard blade is accurately cutting Merbu decking.

However myoriginal reason for this thread still remains, even though I have fitted the feet.  [mad]

Peter, I am looking  fwd to your video.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 08:07 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Flatsawn

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #171 on: April 09, 2017, 09:00 PM »
Peter: In your video explain shadow lighting? also the cost in $

Mark

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #172 on: April 10, 2017, 01:45 AM »
Peter: In your video explain shadow lighting? also the cost in $

Mark

The shadow lighting is there but I have not analysed the pricing as it varies and people can look at the prices on the internet.

I will say that a lot of people will find the KS60 does everything they need to do and save them buying a KS120.

Having put both machines side by side (literally in one of my videos) I would not swap my KS120 even in a new for old deal.

Peter