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Author Topic: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?  (Read 8352 times)

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Offline jussi

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MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« on: September 18, 2011, 02:27 PM »
Just now reading up on the many uses of benchdogs for the MFT and how they are much more versatile than the traditional dogs used in workbenches.  I see there seems to be 2 brands.  Ones made by QWAS and ones made by Tool Improvements.  Has anyone used both and can compare the 2?  I like the adjustable dogs Tool Improvements makes.  Does it hold the diameter size after many uses or do you have to constantly readjust to get the correct diameter?

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Offline Alan m

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 03:29 PM »
i have both. i use the qwas dogs for general use and the tool improvment ones when in attaching things to them.
the adjustment seems to stay set but it is easy to set.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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Offline waho6o9

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 03:48 PM »
+1 what Alan M said.  I also like the tall dogs that attach to the bottom of the Festool rails, those rock.  [big grin]

Offline RonWen

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 05:46 PM »
Just now reading up on the many uses of benchdogs for the MFT and how they are much more versatile than the traditional dogs used in workbenches.  I see there seems to be 2 brands.  Ones made by QWAS and ones made by Tool Improvements.  Has anyone used both and can compare the 2?  I like the adjustable dogs Tool Improvements makes.  Does it hold the diameter size after many uses or do you have to constantly readjust to get the correct diameter?

I'm not familiar with those -- do you have a link?

Offline ccarrolladams

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2011, 06:19 PM »
All of the bench dogs I use in 20mm holes are made by QWAS. Each of those works very well. I do own some QWAS dogs which attach to the Festool rails.

Online Peter Halle

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 06:31 PM »
Just now reading up on the many uses of benchdogs for the MFT and how they are much more versatile than the traditional dogs used in workbenches.  I see there seems to be 2 brands.  Ones made by QWAS and ones made by Tool Improvements.  Has anyone used both and can compare the 2?  I like the adjustable dogs Tool Improvements makes.  Does it hold the diameter size after many uses or do you have to constantly readjust to get the correct diameter?


I'm not familiar with those -- do you have a link?


Ron,


Peter
I am not the poster, but I would guess that this is the link:  Tool Improvements Website
Any day using a Festool is a special day.  Enjoy!

Peter

Offline RonWen

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 07:08 PM »
Just now reading up on the many uses of benchdogs for the MFT and how they are much more versatile than the traditional dogs used in workbenches.  I see there seems to be 2 brands.  Ones made by QWAS and ones made by Tool Improvements.  Has anyone used both and can compare the 2?  I like the adjustable dogs Tool Improvements makes.  Does it hold the diameter size after many uses or do you have to constantly readjust to get the correct diameter?


I'm not familiar with those -- do you have a link?


Ron,


Peter
I am not the poster, but I would guess that this is the link:  Tool Improvements Website


Thanks Peter, I sent an e-mail to him.

EDIT: The name didn't register with me right off (brain mush) -- I bought his magnetic Domino spacers in the past, he does top quality work.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 05:10 AM by RonWen »

Offline jobsworth

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 12:23 AM »
I use the stops that are part of the essentials. They do all I need
Festool "You'll Never Work Alone"

Online SRSemenza

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2011, 12:31 AM »
I use the stops that are part of the essentials. They do all I need

In one of the Festool Essentials books?


Seth
Festool Service 800-554-8741

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2011, 12:42 AM »
Tool improvements looks like whoever runs it went through a couple forums and just copied ideas verbatim. Heck I posted a picture of the dog using a Kreg clamp here and in other forums well over 2 years ago or more and the others look like Qwas copies. I know you can not patent or copyright dogs like these, but for me I would never use that company (unless Qwas knows them) for no other reason than they look absolutely identical to Qwas dogs! Some of them from the pics I dont think I could tell the difference! I guess I have to much loyalty to the FOG guys. Hopefully that company is not from a FOG member that blatantly took QWAS idea. I could see if they were different, but again many are identical!
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Festool Fishy

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2011, 03:51 AM »
Dovetail get a grip !
Even I know Tool improvements is a member on here John2532 ! I bought his Domino bits and dogs at least three years ago


Offline Alan m

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2011, 04:40 AM »
ye get a grip dovetail. i dont see any coping going on.
 qwas dogs and johns adjustable dogs are completely different. it is only the principle of the idea that is similar , the exicution is vastly different. .
 as for the kreg clamp part. what harm is he doing, i see no other item similar for sale. its very hard to say who had the idea first.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline John2532

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2011, 06:51 PM »
Just to set the record straight, I started selling Festool related accessories approximately 3 years ago. The adjustable bench dogs, Domino narrow-stock spacers and MFT slop-stop are 100% my design.  If these designs were posted on a forum, it was probably by myself.

I definitely did not invent the bench dog and I don’t believe Steve is making that claim either.  He does recognize the usefullness of a bench dog in the MFT and has created a very nice line of products based on that thought. 

A few years back I was asked to machine a dog with a center hole along with a product to mount auxilliary tracks to the MFT.  After checking Steve’s website to see if either was available, and finding neither was, I went ahead with the “double-duty” dogs and reducing sleeves.
Steve and I emailed shortly after that  and while we overlap somewhat on the dogs, we have a gentleman’s agreement not to duplicate each others ideas.  More than once I have been asked to copy his products and have always referred them back to Steve.

Lets face it, bench dogs have been around for many, many years and there will always be variants desired and manufactured.  But seriously, If anyone wants to claim ownership of the “bench dog with a hole” and wants to market them, please let me know and I will step aside.

John

Offline Peter Atkinson

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2011, 10:45 PM »
Although I haven't tried the Qwas dogs mainly because his sales agent's Web site didn't appear to allow sales outside the US. So, I did buy some from John along with his Domino Spacers.

John's service was 'fantastic'. He took the trouble to email me and check which model MFT I was using as apparently the hole size differs slightly from my old ones to the newer MFT/3. He then machine some to suit and ... they fitted perfectly. Thanks again John.

Whichever brand you buy, I am sure you will find them an invaluable adjunct to the MFT.

Peter Atkinson
Greetings from Sydney, Australia
Greetings from the Land Down Under

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 11:17 PM »
ye get a grip dovetail. i dont see any coping going on.
 qwas dogs and johns adjustable dogs are completely different. it is only the principle of the idea that is similar , the exicution is vastly different. .
 as for the kreg clamp part. what harm is he doing, i see no other item similar for sale. its very hard to say who had the idea first.

Get a grip? He states that they both had the same concerns I did and have a gentlemen's agreement and as I said in my post if Qwas knew about it that was great, obviously I do have a grip they both thought as I did . Completely different(I think not)?, as I said some are but not all.

Bench dogs are hundreds of years old, but the idea to use them for alignment and setting up the way Qwas does and actually implementing and making them available for that purpose I give that to Qwas. We have gone though this before a couple years ago and if you search the forum Qwas was the first to state this idea in posts.And yeah time flies it probably was about 3 years or more. I am just a loyal type person and just making a check, so no I will not a get a grip, I will stay as I am.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:20 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline John2532

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 12:38 PM »
Dovetail,  While I can appreciate your loyalty, Steve definately knows about my products and has even welcomed me to post my wares on the "other" festool forum where I believe he is a moderator.  I haven't done so mainly because I started here and am happy with FOG.

John

Offline MightyMarxMan

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2013, 05:58 AM »
Hi

that are my dogs I made. The dogs have a M8 und M6 gradually thread for using cheap M6 and the Festool knobs.







3M

Offline Alan m

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2013, 08:28 AM »
welcome mighty
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline searcher

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2013, 03:22 PM »
Not trying to cut into the business of Qwas or John2532 but what would be the downside to buying the holder end(488546) of clamping elements(488030) off EKAT and using them as dogs? They're $16.67.
I have an MFT/3 but have yet to purchase any dogs or clamping elements. Could someone who is familiar with both provide some insight?
Thanks.

Offline Corwin

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2013, 05:57 PM »
Not trying to cut into the business of Qwas or John2532 but what would be the downside to buying the holder end(488546) of clamping elements(488030) off EKAT and using them as dogs? They're $16.67.
I have an MFT/3 but have yet to purchase any dogs or clamping elements. Could someone who is familiar with both provide some insight?
Thanks.

When Steve (Qwas) first posted on how accurate the MFT's holes were aligned, he was using these "holder ends" from a set of Clamping Elements and was a little concerned that the rubber face on them may allow for a bit of inaccuracy.  Probably not an issue worth worrying about.  A bigger concern may be the fit of these "holder ends" within the MFT's holes -- if they are too loose you will need to take care that your material, fence or rail (whichever you have in contact with them) is up tight against it and it remains plumb (doesn't tip within the hole).  So, yes, the "holder ends" of the Clamping Elements should work fine for many of your setups on the MFT.
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Offline Qwas

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2013, 06:02 PM »
That's a good question which hasn't been asked in a long time.  [smile] When I first realized what how the holes could be used, many of us on the forum used these to prove the concept worked. So, they will work if needed. If you do use the clamping elements ends, we recommend using the rounded edge rather than the flat part with the rubber glued on.

As for the downside, these are designed for a different purpose and there is no guarantee to their accuracy. Granted, they are made in a mold and are probably accurate, we have no idea when and if that may change. Festool has shown no interest in using the 20 mm holes for alignment so would you expect them to be concerned about any minor changes to these clamping ends? Also these ends are taller above the table top than other made dogs made for the purpose. If you do any work with 1/2'" wood or plywood the dogs will be handier.

You can buy 2 ends for $33 or a pair of Qwas Dogs for $36 made for this use and guaranteed accurate. You can read the many comments about Qwas Dogs on the forums and see they have reputation for working extremely well.

edit: Thanks Corwin, you posted as I was writing mine.  [smile]
Steve Adams  QwasProducts.com

Offline PeterK

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2013, 06:10 PM »
For sure the Qwas dogs work better for thinner stock. I have sanded the tops of my clamping elements several times - sure look ragged now!

Offline PeterK

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2013, 06:14 PM »
Another option ---
I found some 20mm shank socket head bolts that have a smooth shank before the threads start. They fit very precisely in the MFT top holes. Not sure how accurately they are machined for being perfectly round and centered on the shank but they work great as stops to push against when sanding or Dominoing.

Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2013, 06:22 PM »
Another option ---
I found some 20mm shank socket head bolts that have a smooth shank before the threads start. They fit very precisely in the MFT top holes. Not sure how accurately they are machined for being perfectly round and centered on the shank but they work great as stops to push against when sanding or Dominoing.
shank socket head bolt? I'm interested but not sure what kinda of bolt that is...any chance of a pic..since we are all fog family....thanks, David

Offline Corwin

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2013, 06:28 PM »
That's a good question which hasn't been asked in a long time.  [smile] When I first realized what how the holes could be used, many of us on the forum used these to prove the concept worked. So, they will work if needed. If you do use the clamping elements ends, we recommend using the rounded edge rather than the flat part with the rubber glued on.

...


Yeah, I remember suggesting that you use the rounded backside of the "holders" if you were worried about any sponginess that might exist on the flat face.  But, as others pointed out, that rounded backside is not plumb -- it is tapered and protrudes further at the top than it does towards the base.  Since this backside is not plumb, it may prove problematic on any stock that is thinner than these holders stand tall...
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Offline PeterK

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2013, 06:32 PM »
Socket shoulder screw is the proper term. No pics at the moment but if you Google that term you will see several images. Trying to remember where I purchased them.

Reid Supply. Were not cheap if I remember correctly.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Shoulder-Socket-Diameter-Length/dp/B003R7JCFW/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1360539593&sr=1-1
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:40 PM by PeterK »

Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2013, 06:45 PM »
Socket shoulder screw is the proper term. No pics at the moment but if you Google that term you will see several images. Trying to remember where I purchased them.

Reid Supply. Were not cheap if I remember correctly.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Shoulder-Socket-Diameter-Length/dp/B003R7JCFW/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1360539593&sr=1-1
thanks Peter ! Boy, you weren't kidding about not cheap

Offline PeterK

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2013, 06:49 PM »
Yea I bought them before I heard of Qwas dogs!

Offline Qwas

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 07:07 PM »
PeterK: Looks like your bolts would fine.

As for a normal 20 mm hex head bolt, beware. I bought 2 of these, 60 mm long, for test purposes. There are 2 issues: The actual bolt diameter is about 19.72 mm which is quite small for all but the oldest of the MFT-1080/800, and the hex head is out on concentric by .03 mm or almost a full 64th of an inch. There is no tolerance on how concentric the hex head must be.



So why do I still have them and bothered to powder coat them? Because they still make a nice work stop when accuracy doesn't matter.  [smile]
Steve Adams  QwasProducts.com

Offline PeterK

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Re: MFT bench dog - which brand to get?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2013, 07:11 PM »
The smooth shank of the ones I got from Reid are very snug precise fit in the MFT/3 holes. They make a pop sound when pulled out! No slop at all. Being steel they weigh a lot and are no where near as convenient to use as your Qwas dogs. I would never use the threaded shaft ones like you showed as would be thinking they would damage the holes over time.

Thanks for a great product Steve.