Author Topic: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing  (Read 3738 times)

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Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« on: August 02, 2018, 09:47 PM »
When you compare Makita’s and Festool’s Track Saw Guide rails, it’s very hard to see what difference would justify the Festool rails price point being more 2x the cost of the nearly identical Makita Guide rail. 

Can anyone explain the differences, features or value adds that justify spending more money to buy Festool rails vs the Makita and Triton Rails?
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Offline Alec Buscemi

  • Posts: 33
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 10:15 PM »
When you compare ferrari's and Ford's street muscle, it’s very hard to see what difference would justify the ferrari  price point being more 2x the cost of the nearly identical ford car.

No one can explain the differences, features or value adds that justify spending more money to buy Ferrari  vs ford or lada.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 223
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2018, 10:30 PM »
Makita is a mainstream consumer/pro tool company that markets its tools as a quality+value proposition as in "these are good tools that perform well and last for a reasonable price.

Festool is a luxury goods company that markets its tools as an expensive+exclusivity proposition as in "your buddies will know you have too much money when you can afford our overpriced tools.

Any questions?

Offline Peter_C

  • Posts: 668
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2018, 11:07 PM »
Well I haven't heard of a Festool rail being warped but I am sure there are some. On the other hand Makita rails are known for having warping issues. There almost seems to be a 50/50 chance of getting a warped rail, but I would hope they got their QC issues under control.

Edit: http://www.woodbin.com/doc/my-very-brief-experience-with-a-makita-track-saw/
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 11:17 PM by Peter_C »

Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 36
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2018, 11:33 PM »
Peter C's reply and the additional differences that can be traced back to overhead. Festool rails are made in Germany or the USA, both paying much higher wages to produce than Makita's rails that are made in China, obviously a much lower wage market. Additionally, Festool tools come with a much better warranty, which needs to be paid for somehow.

Check out the reviews on Rockler for the Makita guide rail. There are two reviews, one is a five-star, the other is a one-star because it wasn't straight.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2018, 10:07 AM »
Peter C's reply and the additional differences that can be traced back to overhead. Festool rails are made in Germany or the USA, both paying much higher wages to produce than Makita's rails that are made in China, obviously a much lower wage market. Additionally, Festool tools come with a much better warranty, which needs to be paid for somehow.

Check out the reviews on Rockler for the Makita guide rail. There are two reviews, one is a five-star, the other is a one-star because it wasn't straight.

Makita finally started packing their tracks in crates this year to reduce shipping damage.  I would think these tracks were being made by automation systems, robots and computerized machines. 

Aside from plant engineers and shipping and receiving, I doubt there's very much human labour in building aluminum guide rails and extrusions. 
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4944
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2018, 11:40 AM »
It could be the price of the tooling itself. Tooling manufactured in Germany or the US will be a lot more expensive than other off-shore tooling.

It could also be the grade of aluminum they use for the extrusion.

I could also be their final inspection method. It sounds like a lot of "bad" Makita rails are making their way into customers hands.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 459
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 12:37 PM »
Volume? Bigger order = lower price per item.
Materials? Cheaper stuff = lower price per item.
Locality? Pay of a Chinese worker compared to a Chech >> lower price per item.
Subsidy? Sell rail at cost or below, make profit with plunge saw — who knows?
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline Don Ware

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 12:57 PM »
festool had to find a company that would guarantee that the rail they make are straight.
They charge extra for that guarantee.
Don Ware
Anderson Plywood Sales
Culver City, California

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2615
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2018, 01:13 PM »
And don't forget about shipping costs. Here in the NA marketplace Festool has covered the cost of shipping in the price of their tools. The longer guide rails sometimes arrive damaged, so they have to account for this expense in their pricing.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2018, 02:28 PM »
festool had to find a company that would guarantee that the rail they make are straight.
They charge extra for that guarantee.

There's probably a bit of Festool Tax (paying more for the Festool Logo) impacts the price too.  Bosch makes it's guide rails in Europe using similar tolerances.  The Bosch tracks are more expensive than Makita's but cheaper than Festool.

A percentage of the added cost is likely the result of paying for the green stripe and Festool Logo.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 02:30 PM by Steven Owen »
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 06:15 PM »
I guess this will be a question without a definitive answer whereas Festool's policy about not discussing pricing, marketing, etc. on the internet.

Carry on with your theories....

Peter

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 07:15 PM »
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 07:20 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 08:08 PM »
The majority of rails for those of us in North America are made here.  There are exceptions.  I believe that the longest rail and the Lr-32 (holey) rails are still coming from overseas.

Peter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 164
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2018, 09:49 PM »
Market share and feedback loop on what the market will accept.

If you are a smaller player, you price lower to grow.  But also if you raise price and sales continue, you begin to plot raising price again.

If people keep on buying, your price isn't a problem to folks.

Just simple business.

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 860
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2018, 07:56 AM »
It comes down to everyone making money. TTS Tooltechnic, FestoolUSA and the merchants selling their products all need to make money.  What you get is a great product with awesome customer service.  Also Festool has everyone beat with availability.  I can buy Festool items from local shops or  online and have it in 1-2 days.

The current 55in guide rail is $145.  I figure that after everyone is paid this Guide rail costs $25-30 to produce.  But it is what it is.  It you don’t want to pay it buy the Makita.  The quality will not be the same as the Festool but if that doesn’t matter to you, go for it.

Offline guitarchitect

  • Posts: 59
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2018, 10:33 AM »
I don't think there's enough appreciation, by customers in general, about the implications of high quality control.

Say you have an industrial process that results in 1 bad thing for every 9 good things. This is an exaggeration, of course... But stick with me.

Company A orders 1000 items from the manufacturer, and sells them all knowing that some people won't check or care, assuming that of the 100 bad ones they send out they may get a few back... But the amount they sell that don't come back more than pays for the replacements .

Company B prides itself on High Quality Products and checks everything to fit within a certain tolerance - so in their order of 1000 they see 100 they can't sell and in order to balance that out, the product costs more. But it sees almost no returns, and there's better brand image because they make High Quality Products.

To be sure, that's an oversimplification... But it goes some way as to explaining why some seemingly identical items have very different costs. There are a lot more factors at place, but it's a big part of it. Company A and B could also be manufaturers, too - wherein the factory has higher priced items because they have high QC, and don't sell junk to companies to sell. Manufacturer A might make to a tolerance of 1/8" in 10' on their rails and sell to makita for $10, but Manufacturer B throws out anything that warped and makes to a tolerance of 1/32" so they sell to Festool for $25. Add those same QC factors to shipping companies, distributors, retailers, and you start to see how the original price can get inflated by the time it gets to the consumer.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 11:19 AM »
Why does Festool price their rails versus others?  I don't know.  They probably won't say here.

Last year I had the opportunity to visit Festool USA in Lebanon twice after they had set up their production line for guiderails.  I know that Festool USA spent a lot of time energy, and money sourcing a qualified vendor to supply the extrusions to them.  I also know that lots of samples from different lots travelled overseas for quality control checking in Germany.  I also saw on both the visits the rails stacked against the wall that were deemed not suitable.  Not suitable could mean many things including (as shown to me) an imperfection in the surface.

I am not in the tool industry, nor am I paid by Festool, but I can imagine that all the bits and pieces of quality control and material acquisition, production, and the rest of the stuff comes into play and that the margins for their rails versus the competitors is not that different.

Whether or not they fall into the price range for everyone is another matter.  To each their own.  I consider my rails to be a "buy once and then use to death" type of tool.

Just my 2 cents.

Peter

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 01:04 PM »
Why does Festool price their rails versus others?  I don't know.  They probably won't say here.

Last year I had the opportunity to visit Festool USA in Lebanon twice after they had set up their production line for guiderails.  I know that Festool USA spent a lot of time energy, and money sourcing a qualified vendor to supply the extrusions to them.  I also know that lots of samples from different lots travelled overseas for quality control checking in Germany.  I also saw on both the visits the rails stacked against the wall that were deemed not suitable.  Not suitable could mean many things including (as shown to me) an imperfection in the surface.

I am not in the tool industry, nor am I paid by Festool, but I can imagine that all the bits and pieces of quality control and material acquisition, production, and the rest of the stuff comes into play and that the margins for their rails versus the competitors is not that different.

Whether or not they fall into the price range for everyone is another matter.  To each their own.  I consider my rails to be a "buy once and then use to death" type of tool.

Just my 2 cents.

Peter

Makita is a funny company to begin with.  They’ve invested a lot of money in the saws and routers making some compelling products that give Festool a run for it’s money on the power tools. 

They tend to drop the ball on accessories.  Their batteries don’t have battery indicators.  You can can get better batteries from 3rd parties.

Makita Guide rails require 2-3 exchanges to get a straight rail. 
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Offline glass1

  • Posts: 429
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 01:39 PM »
Festool rails are better. The longer the more better. I can live with the short makitas for the price. If money is no object go festool as they are stiffer. Makitas slot for slop adjust tends to be narrower slightly making joining the brands a pain. I have both.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 164
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 10:54 PM »
I don't think there's enough appreciation, by customers in general, about the implications of high quality control.


There isn't much appreciation by the bulk of people what it takes to make anything.  People just think the stuff is magically made some place and tend to only think of raw material cost (maybe) and not much more. It's often very hard for folks to understand that to make something low price, you have to spend a vast amount of money designing it, the manufacturing methods, machines, etc to get there.  This is why Value Engineering exist and why someone can justify spending an entire year to save 1 cent from the cost of a product. It may be only 1 cent, but if the manufacture uses 2 million of them a year, that person just paid for their existence that year.   People tend to think cars are expensive but don't understand that the manufacture prices the parts down to the 1/100th of a cent.  .0001 Dollars sounds insane, but again if you use say 4 of something in a car, and you make 4 models of car that sell 250,000 units a year, that is 4 million parts, x 6 year run of production so thats 24,000,000 units.  Or 2,400 dollars.  That sort of thing adds up, that 1/100th of a cent might have just been a tiny amount of metal or plastic trimmed off.   Few products can justify that sort of development money, thus they cost more on the production side.   Festool isn't that big of a company. They can't have someone spend 1 year working to save a few bucks on something, it will never pay for that effort.   So things are going to be much more expensive than they could be on a much higher volume company.

If people say what goes in to making most products, more importantly on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side people would never think things are expensive.  You get into seeing the real world of developing cars you would think a basic econobox would cost a million bucks to buy.

When I design stuff, the reality is if I spend even a few more hours on something, I can make it a bit cheaper. But that time cost money, and well, time.  You can only optimize stuff so far or you never get the cost back.  Volumes matter to, I make stuff that will almost all be machined. It's the cheapest method for what I make due to volume, there is no tooling, and bend/weld will cost a ton in labor (plus be a bad part).  The block of metal sounds expensive, and the machine that carves it is expensive, and they person who programs it isn't cheap.  But once ready, the price keeps going down with everyone made.    Same for any company.  They have to assume how many they will make, factor it into their plans and hope it works.

The other factor people forget is the price of any product isn't representing the price to make that particular product.  It's a company as a whole paying the bills.  Every product they loose money on has to be paid for by one that makes money.  Back to car industry.  They loose money on everyone sold on the low end cars.  The high end stuff has to pay for the losses on the low end ones.  But bigger picture different things get spread across everything.  A cheap econobox offsets CAFE for the big expensive car.

Running an extrusion, cutting it, silkscreen and sticking some stuff on a rail isn't costing them much at all. The biggest rails probably cost them a couple dollars, maybe 20 bucks to make.  But it's steady money to be had.  It's an essential part of the system, you aren't going to sell them with a low margin.  Those rails need to cover prices of other parts of Festool that don't pour in money.

Unless people stop buying, they will carry on as is.  They are not a community owned non-profit co-op.


Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 11:43 PM »
I don't think there's enough appreciation, by customers in general, about the implications of high quality control.


There isn't much appreciation by the bulk of people what it takes to make anything.  People just think the stuff is magically made some place and tend to only think of raw material cost (maybe) and not much more. It's often very hard for folks to understand that to make something low price, you have to spend a vast amount of money designing it, the manufacturing methods, machines, etc to get there.  This is why Value Engineering exist and why someone can justify spending an entire year to save 1 cent from the cost of a product. It may be only 1 cent, but if the manufacture uses 2 million of them a year, that person just paid for their existence that year.   People tend to think cars are expensive but don't understand that the manufacture prices the parts down to the 1/100th of a cent.  .0001 Dollars sounds insane, but again if you use say 4 of something in a car, and you make 4 models of car that sell 250,000 units a year, that is 4 million parts, x 6 year run of production so thats 24,000,000 units.  Or 2,400 dollars.  That sort of thing adds up, that 1/100th of a cent might have just been a tiny amount of metal or plastic trimmed off.   Few products can justify that sort of development money, thus they cost more on the production side.   Festool isn't that big of a company. They can't have someone spend 1 year working to save a few bucks on something, it will never pay for that effort.   So things are going to be much more expensive than they could be on a much higher volume company.

If people say what goes in to making most products, more importantly on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side people would never think things are expensive.  You get into seeing the real world of developing cars you would think a basic econobox would cost a million bucks to buy.

When I design stuff, the reality is if I spend even a few more hours on something, I can make it a bit cheaper. But that time cost money, and well, time.  You can only optimize stuff so far or you never get the cost back.  Volumes matter to, I make stuff that will almost all be machined. It's the cheapest method for what I make due to volume, there is no tooling, and bend/weld will cost a ton in labor (plus be a bad part).  The block of metal sounds expensive, and the machine that carves it is expensive, and they person who programs it isn't cheap.  But once ready, the price keeps going down with everyone made.    Same for any company.  They have to assume how many they will make, factor it into their plans and hope it works.

The other factor people forget is the price of any product isn't representing the price to make that particular product.  It's a company as a whole paying the bills.  Every product they loose money on has to be paid for by one that makes money.  Back to car industry.  They loose money on everyone sold on the low end cars.  The high end stuff has to pay for the losses on the low end ones.  But bigger picture different things get spread across everything.  A cheap econobox offsets CAFE for the big expensive car.

Running an extrusion, cutting it, silkscreen and sticking some stuff on a rail isn't costing them much at all. The biggest rails probably cost them a couple dollars, maybe 20 bucks to make.  But it's steady money to be had.  It's an essential part of the system, you aren't going to sell them with a low margin.  Those rails need to cover prices of other parts of Festool that don't pour in money.

Unless people stop buying, they will carry on as is.  They are not a community owned non-profit co-op.

Festool has a bit of a prestige factor to it.  Like BMW or Apple, you pay for the name too.  In theory, with all the factors above, the Festool rails should price in the same range as Bosch and Mafell who also make their rails to the same tolerances. 

Festool is the primary brand featured in “This Old House”, and other home building shows.  Festool is the BMW of the tool world. 

You do pay a a bit of premium for the Festool brand name. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 12:04 AM by Steven Owen »
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Offline JimH2

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2018, 10:13 AM »
The quality will not be the same as the Festool but if that doesn’t matter to you, go for it.

That is very subjective.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2018, 09:30 PM »
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.

Offline vkumar

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2018, 09:33 PM »
So @tallgrass is your conclusion is that Makita rails and Festool rails have the same level of accuracy?
Vijay Kumar

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2018, 09:43 PM »
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.

Makita can have good batches of tracks.  Many users have indicated having to make several exchanges to get a trouble free rail.  You might find yourself trading several rails to get one that isn’t warped.
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Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2018, 09:44 PM »
Festool rails are better. The longer the more better. I can live with the short makitas for the price. If money is no object go festool as they are stiffer. Makitas slot for slop adjust tends to be narrower slightly making joining the brands a pain. I have both.

Actually Mafell/Bosch rails are the better. 😁. Also Mafell makes a better track saw. No regrets making the switch to Mafell saws with Mafell/Bosch Rails. I have some Festool Rails still hanging on my wall of my shop.  I hung them and haven’t taken them down since. . 

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2018, 01:00 AM »
the connection method is very nice but I am not sure about Better. I am a Mech engineer and have a sickness for accuracy. I have surface plates and dial indicators that I use to check bearing run out and "flatness" of various tool surfaces. Yes I am that guy who checks out the run out on a new router.

When it comes to the rails I have a ton of festool rails, old and new profiles. I have makita and I also have one Bosch.  I have checked them optically with a sled and as far as "straightness", the festool rails were quite good, as were the makita rails. The bosch was no more accurate in terms of straightness but had more "run out" in the z axis.  So I am not sure if "Better" works. different maybe. I run lots of tools on these rails and machine different mounting plates to use them on . . With in the realm of extrusions they are quite good. I do not think the "accuracy" of Bosch and Mafell are "better" If so how are you measuring this? The examples I have seen seem to be withing an expected variation of quality extrusion. I am not sure greater accuracy would even be useful. I have re-machined rails for tight tolerance work and the improvement was not notable. What does matter is the condition of the surface the rail is placed on. This is do to the conforming nature of these rails. All of them. Mafell makes a good saw. Not saying they do not. however I would be surprised if the composite nature of their rail was able to outperform monolithic rails that do not suffer from the issues that arise form such construction.   I used a autocollimator that is used for  surface plate calibration. If you are curious.

The price is not out of line.  I hear lots of complaints about the horrors of cheap tools. I also hear complaints on the expense of good tools. the choice is all yours . you are free to choose which group to choose from and which one to complain about. :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:05 AM by tallgrass »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 610
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2018, 10:32 AM »
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.

The point was that unless someone can back up that Festool rails are superior (or that Makita ones are inferior) it is just an unsubstantiated opinion. You have done so which counters @glass1 subjective opinion.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 610
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 10:35 AM »
Festool rails are better. The longer the more better. I can live with the short makitas for the price. If money is no object go festool as they are stiffer. Makitas slot for slop adjust tends to be narrower slightly making joining the brands a pain. I have both.

Actually Mafell/Bosch rails are the better. 😁. Also Mafell makes a better track saw. No regrets making the switch to Mafell saws with Mafell/Bosch Rails. I have some Festool Rails still hanging on my wall of my shop.  I hung them and haven’t taken them down since. .

I have both and it is my opinion that Mafell/Bosch rails are superior in every way except for durability. I have not had any problems, but the possibility is there because they are not as heavy duty as the Festool rails. How this plays out over the life of the rail I don't know. I am two years in and have not had any problems so maybe their lighter and smaller design is just as durable as Festool's.

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 62
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 12:23 PM »
Another thing that no one mentioned yet is that Makita rails are not anodized and may leave marks on certain woods.

I have both Festool and Makita rails and never experienced any marring, but others have. Also, I haven't had any issues connecting Festool and Makita rails together.

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1468
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2018, 12:32 PM »
Another thing that no one mentioned yet is that Makita rails are not anodized and may leave marks on certain woods.
Are you sure? Perhaps the quality of anodizing is poor?

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2018, 11:10 PM »
this is easy to test. I guess I have to break out my surface condition crud. Aluminum oxide is vastly harder than regular aluminum. I will say my makita rails are holding up beautifully.  I still have a hard time with the comment that the mafell and bosch are superior in every way. The connection method is convenient but that is one criteria and not necessarily a driving one. I do not know how many thousand linear feet of festool track there is in the world, but all of the stuff I have is pretty much dead on.  far as accuracy goes I have found the composite track not to be as accurate, I stack this up to the means of manufacture and the composite nature of its construction. So it can not be superior in every way. Granted there may be more exhaustive means of testing, than are available to me. I am limited to autocollimattion and referencing surface plate interrogation. Now please understand I understand the value of statistical sample size and that my sampling is limited. As a matter of definition I would argue that monolithic construction is inherently more stable and possibly more accurate than a composite construction, especially when plastics are involved. As for the price, I would suggest that reflects the ecosystem of the festool price structure. To argue that they are priced excessively assume to understand all of the costs involved. I would rather them stay in business and make lots of money. This goes for their distributors. I wonder how many in this forum treat their own value and product so miserly? The rail with be the cheapest thing that you buy that you use. If you choose to use their track. Wait, if festool track is expensive the Mafell track is eye watering. From what I have seen on their pricing.

Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 319
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2018, 11:24 PM »
What is "composit" nature referring to the bosch rails?

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2018, 01:47 AM »
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward. This could be corrected. Again this is why I mention the nature of my sample size. Also I have said I like all of these rail products. What I as suggesting the concept of best is hard to deal with without some kind of data. I would also suggest that these products are of sufficient quality that the operator may be the largest factor in substandard cut quality.  Early on in festool time I had shipping damaged rails, of the old design. After this is started checking my rails to check for shipping damage. This was back when festool was basically mail order and there was no real dealer network. I have easily a 10 rails. The only ones that were out of "spec", were so due to shipping issues. We can argue about that they should be shipped in a more robust fashion. I do think that people are far to cavalier with their handling of these rails and the condition that of the cut surface has on the the cut quality.  I do wonder how much of the difficulties with the rails are well meaning oversights of best practices techniques and QAQC in the rail manufacture. I still think the cost is not out of line. I will also admit that my rails are in a hybrid condition, meaning I use makita cut strips and not the festool ones.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 02:16 AM by tallgrass »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 409
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2018, 10:26 AM »
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward. This could be corrected. Again this is why I mention the nature of my sample size. Also I have said I like all of these rail products. What I as suggesting the concept of best is hard to deal with without some kind of data. I would also suggest that these products are of sufficient quality that the operator may be the largest factor in substandard cut quality.  Early on in festool time I had shipping damaged rails, of the old design. After this is started checking my rails to check for shipping damage. This was back when festool was basically mail order and there was no real dealer network. I have easily a 10 rails. The only ones that were out of "spec", were so due to shipping issues. We can argue about that they should be shipped in a more robust fashion. I do think that people are far to cavalier with their handling of these rails and the condition that of the cut surface has on the the cut quality.  I do wonder how much of the difficulties with the rails are well meaning oversights of best practices techniques and QAQC in the rail manufacture. I still think the cost is not out of line. I will also admit that my rails are in a hybrid condition, meaning I use makita cut strips and not the festool ones.

The price issues is probably a bigger issue in Canada where we get tariff-ed to death and beyond.  If we were paying the same price as the US it would be an easier pill to swallow.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2018, 01:43 PM »
it is amazing how often our government overlords screw things up for the little people.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1468
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2018, 02:34 PM »
What is "composit" nature referring to the bosch rails?
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward.
Those are just end plugs, similar to Festool hose deflector. You remove them if you connect Bosch/Mafell rails. How do they cause the rail to deflect upward?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 02:37 PM by Svar »

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 737
Re: Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2018, 03:21 PM »
I keep them in my bosch rail. I find excessive snagging with them out.  It is an interesting question. I tested the rail with the festool deflector and it did not change the rail. The fit of mine is fairly loose in all of my rails. Again samples of one are problematic [blink].  I tested the bosch rail with and without the plugs. With out the plugs the deflection was not as severe. This may be to the artifact of their long term being in place. The only thing that comes to mind is that they induce excessive pressure causing some deflection. This is extremely minimal. This may be a variable that is specific to the particular plastic "plugs " you have with the specific rail you have. I think I have said in this post that all of these rails seem to live withing what would be expected from quality extrusions. Hence my difficulty with the idea of better being empirical, as the well as the idea of quality being relative.