Author Topic: Sander for rapid removal of stock.  (Read 2102 times)

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Offline Phils

  • Posts: 5
Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« on: August 31, 2017, 02:53 PM »
I need a sander to remove stock quickly, i have an ro90 which does move stock but is small, a metabo 450 which is pretty good but not quick enough.
The surfaces are wood or grp and anti foul paint so extraction is important.
The ability to leave a flat surface is also important, i need to avoid deep scores so i have dismissed the ras 180.
A lot of work will be above head/vertical, not ideal as they are all heavy....
I am thinking ro150, or makita 6050j or the bosch gex 150 turbo.
Can i ask for feedback, i have heard there is not much to choose between them on performance, what is reliability like, i have heard the bosch falls down here?
Not sure about the makita...
Any comments gratefully received..

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Offline Aclaw

  • Posts: 64
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 04:41 PM »
it is kinda heavy, but you may want to look at a Metabo LF724s.

Offline gunnyr

  • Posts: 82
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 04:43 PM »
Hmmm.  This is the Festool Owners Group.  I'm thinking that the RO150 is the way to go!   [big grin]
Semper Fi,
Jeff

PRO 5 LTD|TS 55 REQ|CXS|RO 90|CT 26|OF 1400|LR 32|DF 500|MFT/3|ETS 150/3|MFS 400/700|MFK 700|HKC 55|PSB 420|PDC 18
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Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4594
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 04:48 PM »
That particular Metabo can't remove the material like  RO 150, let alone a RAS 115 or RAS 180, which is a  monster.

Festool RO 150(best dust collection verse RAS), RAS 115 or RAS 180(not in USA must get another way)

https://www.amazon.com/Festool-571810-RO-150-FEQ/dp/B004R18WP8/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1504212681&sr=1-1&keywords=festool+ro+150

Bosch 1250 Devs(goes as low as 229 every now and again, but worth the 269 as the Bosch 1250 Devs is as good as RP 150 that is twice the cost dust collection as good as well)

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1250DEVS-6-Inch-Random-Sander/dp/B0001408SO/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1504212537&sr=1-1&keywords=bosch+devs
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:51 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7649
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 05:50 PM »
RO150 in forced rotation mode is pretty aggressive. It's also a fantastic polisher!

Nobody ever seems to consider Rupes around here any more ...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 06:17 PM »
Predominantly a U.S. crowd around here and Rupes has very little market penetration.  Especially with regard to woodworking.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3398
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 06:18 PM »
The RAS 115.4 does a great job of fast stock removal.  Keep your dainty digits out of the way or they'll be nubs... 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Phils

  • Posts: 5
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 06:21 PM »
Indeed it is a festool owners group, and i am one, but surely we can honestly reccomend tools that are better.
Festool themselves need this info to continue to lead the market...

On the ras, as i understand it the dust extraction is poor, which is a no no for poisonous paints like antifoul. Plus they are prone to leaving uneven surfaces.

On the bosch i heard the rotation gears where plastic and not reliable as a result?

Offline Phils

  • Posts: 5
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 06:42 PM »
On the rupes, i looked them up but know nothing about their reliability etcetc.
What are they like?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 08:13 PM »
...
A lot of work will be above head/vertical, not ideal as they are all heavy....
...

I would start with looking at an ETS/EC 150/5 or the Mirka DEROS.
Anything else will be a lot heavier.

If you're in the US, then the ETS/EC, and if you are in 230v land then the DEROS.
The ETS/EC should be easier to try in US.

If you are horizontal then a belt sander is hard to beat and belts us tp 600 grit are available as well as frames to control the 'depth'.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7649
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 09:39 PM »
On the rupes, i looked them up but know nothing about their reliability etcetc.
What are they like?

Rupes have a big range and a lot of their tools are very good quality. I went from Rupes to Festool sanders a long time ago when Festool gave me superior dust collection.

Rupes are big in the auto industry (in Europe obviously).

Another interesting brand is Flex.

Sanders aside, a lot of your success is going to come down to your choice in abrasives.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 09:49 PM »
With in the Festool world I would normally suggest the RO150 , but with a lot of overhead work the ETS EC /5 is possibly the way to go.  I don't think the RAS115 is what you want for this job. For removing paint I would be figuring to use Granat.

Seth

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 216
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 03:47 AM »
I need a sander to remove stock quickly, i have an ro90 which does move stock but is small, a metabo 450 which is pretty good but not quick enough.
The surfaces are wood or grp and anti foul paint so extraction is important.
The ability to leave a flat surface is also important, i need to avoid deep scores so i have dismissed the ras 180.
A lot of work will be above head/vertical, not ideal as they are all heavy....
I am thinking ro150, or makita 6050j or the bosch gex 150 turbo.
Can i ask for feedback, i have heard there is not much to choose between them on performance, what is reliability like, i have heard the bosch falls down here?
Not sure about the makita...
Any comments gratefully received..

Given the model numbers you've quoted, & reading between the lines, I'm assuming that you're after 220/240v tools, & will be cleaning, repairing & repainting boat hulls.  So, when you say that you require a "flat" surface I'm assuming that you're really after an absence of gouging.

If that is the case, it makes recommendations easier.  Fastest removal will of course be with an angle grinder fitted with an extraction guard, flexible backing pad & appropriately gritted Norton discs.  Messy 'though.  Just as the small & large Festool RAS sander/grinders will be.  Max power & speed would actually be from something like a speed restricted grinder such as the Metabo Inox with an extraction guard & sprung loaded brush surround, which will, like the less effective Festool twins, allow a substantial (& unacceptable?) amount of dust escape.

The 3 gear-driven rotary/eccentric sanders you've mentioned will all be similarly effective at sanding.  The Rotex, however has a couple of distinct advantages:  firstly, it has a large, proprietory range of papers available, at least one of which (Granat? Cristal?) will probably prove ideal for the required task.  It also has, with additional holes, superior dust extraction to the rest.
.
I'm not at all surprised that you've found the baby RO 90 inadequate to the task.  It's combination of flawed ergonomics and small size makes for slow & frustrating progress on bigger jobs.

There's also belt sanders of course.  Despite being some 40 odd years old now the Festool BSE twins are still class leaders in their respective sizes.  Don't buy the big one. It's way too heavy, & the handles placed way too far apart to be safely used vertically or overhead.  Even the BS75E will become rather heavy way too quickly too I suspect.  If you do go this route, & if you're young & fit enough to use it vertically all day it may actually prove useful for even more rapid abrasion(than the Rotex-type sanders).  It can, when fitted with the brilliant "Set" sanding frame, prove remarkably effective and as aggressive or gentle as required by dialling in an appropriate "depth of cut" on the sanding frame adjusting knob.

A couple of suggestions here.  If held vertically, the drag of the belt on the substrate will help support its weight.  Just about every other sort of sander will require an extremely tight grip & a constant fight against the sanders' inclination to twist/move/rotate with the coarsest grits & of course gravity.  The belt sander's forward momentum & drag can be an effective counter to gravity.  The second suggestion is to unscrew your Metabo 450 front knob & reattach it to the forward top M8 hole on the belt sander.  It may sound weird, but it makes for a much more natural & ergonomic alternative to the blobby & potentially slippery fixed front grip on the sander itself.  This is especially effective for vertical & overhead surfaces

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:54 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 04:40 AM »
...
Hope this helps.

It always helps me to see your insight. So I appreciate it Bruss.

Maybe I should be looking at the BS75, or the Makita (etc) equivalent with a frame? And dodge the idea of the BS105?
(For normal work like... Tables, doors, etc)

Offline Milvus

  • Posts: 13
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 05:23 AM »
If dust toxicity is one of your concerns, I wouldn't recommend you belt sanders like BS75 or BS105. I have them both and they are great machines, and stock removal is faster than RO150 but dust collection capability is far behind RO150.

Antonio.

Offline Phils

  • Posts: 5
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 06:30 AM »
Yes its work on refits on boats, i have both 220/240 and 110 so either is a good choice, dust extraction is 110 though. Also yes i meant gouging, i just could not think of the word when i wrote the post so went with flat, getting old.......
Back to replies that was a very interesting post, i have the big makita belt thats been around forever, 9401, and it does shift stuff quickly its just too heavy for anything other than work from above.
I see the 75 is still pretty heavy, so i will have to think long and hard about that.
The ro90 was really bought for small ledges and for its triangular plate abilities, it does these quite well.
As such i am thinking more about the ro150, but the set plate does make me think carefully.
I have been using the metabo with abranet and that has been very effective, but not as quick as i was hoping.
Thanks for the reply, as i said it does help.

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 216
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 06:43 AM »
...
Hope this helps.

It always helps me to see your insight. So I appreciate it Bruss.

Maybe I should be looking at the BS75, or the Makita (etc) equivalent with a frame? And dodge the idea of the BS105?
(For normal work like... Tables, doors, etc)

Holmz, don't dismiss the BS105E outright.  Whilst the "75" is much more of an allrounder, the "105" just about stands alone as the supreme "flattener".  The latter is bigger & heavier, but all that power (1400w) and the potential abrasiveness of Flexovit belts as course as 24g is more than tempered by the variable speed control (full wave) & sanding frame.  The frame in particular allows an unprecedented level of control.  I've even used it (400g, slow with a mere poofteenth of depth) for stripping painted veneer!

On horizontal surfaces it's weight just adds it's own finesse to the equation:  it becomes much less of a fight against the belt gripping & actually smooths progress.  It goes from a raging, rabid tiger to purring like a kitty cat with a mere belt change, speed & depth adjustment.

OK, for me the handles are a tad widely spaced, but I'm not as young or fit as I was once, but for flattening glue-ups, tables & benches or even renovating floors it reigns supreme in hand tools: only bettered by thicknessing sanding machines.

The 75 (mine is the Metabo Ba E 1075 clone with removable front handle, now sadly discontinued since Tooltechnic's acquisition of Reich power tools division) is smaller, lighter, less powerful & as a consequence less effective even as it is perhaps more ergonomically sound for old buggers like me.

Of course, if you've an ounce of sense you'll import your own 105E yourself & change over the forked belt tensioner from the original Euro 620mm version to the Oz/USA specific 610 (24") version to accommodate local sized belts.  About $60 odd from Festool Oz.  All up it should run to about AU $650-700 all up incl postage for a good one second hand incl. monster systainer, frame, dustbag, ext'n adapter & maybe even the linishing frame/fence & inversion feet.  I trust you're aware of local prices:  you'd be either obscenely wealthy or certifiably nuts to buy local in this particular instance.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:49 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 08:33 AM »
...
... I've even used it (400g, slow with a mere poofteenth of depth) for stripping painted veneer!
...

^This^ is also on the cards..

... & change over the forked belt tensioner from the original Euro 620mm version to the Oz/USA specific 610 (24") version to accommodate local sized belts.  About $60 odd from Festool Oz.

I am interested in that part.
I'll have a look.


... you'd be either obscenely wealthy or certifiably nuts to buy local in this particular instance.

Obscenities flow often, but I have not been nuts enough to be able to justify the outlay of 1-2 kilobucks for something I want but rarely actually need.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 848
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 09:23 AM »
I'd use my Mirka Deros since it's overhead work.  Nice and lightweight and with a course grit it should be the most amenable all around, although it is not as aggressive as my Rotex 150 set to aggressive mode, but my arms won't fall off either using the Mirka. 

For flatness though, my Bosch half sheet sander would be my go-to, but for overhead it is even heavier than my Rotex 150.

A belt sander would remove faster than any of the above, but with flatness needed and overhead weight making control against gouging even harder, forget that idea.
Kapex, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Hat, Festool T-Shirt (2), Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Phils

  • Posts: 5
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 05:04 PM »
How does the 150/8mm deros compare to the ro150 as regards stock removal?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 06:06 PM »
How does the 150/8mm deros compare to the ro150 as regards stock removal?

In non geared mode the RO is slower than the DEROS or the ETS/EC.
-150/5
I have a DEROS and like it.

What I really think you want is a DEROS 7.5-mm, or the Rupes (or maybe it is DEROS) in the 12-mm stroke.

I am no expert with boats, other than seasickness.
Can some sort of scraper get mist of the paint off?

Offline Dovetail65

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    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 06:06 PM »
The RO 150 is far more powerful.

If we look at the numbers the RO 150 is a 720 watt sander, the Deros 500 watt. That's 31% more current the Ro150 sander could draw over the Deros. Even tech larger sanding stroke of 8 verse 5 just cant make up for raw power advantage.

If I thought the Deros removed the stock as fast as the RO 150 I would not have returned it. In side by side tests the RO is faster in my shop. Actually, the Deros was only marginally faster than the Festool EC and not enough to make me keep it and the Festool EC is only a 400 watt sander.

I never tested the 8 stroke because I dont want additional sanding it would require for me. I am not even sure if I could get that 8 stroke, I never looked in to it. I find it hard to believe the 8 stroke could overcome 30% more power in any sanding mode though.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:17 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 216
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 06:27 PM »
But at only a mere 1 kilogram the large eccentricity of an 8 mm DEROS must make it a contender for overhead work.  In my own instance I'd willingly sacrifice outright speed for weight saving every time.  The Mirka's 1 kg weight comprehensively trumps the 2.3 kg Rotex.  For me that's the difference between intermittent use use only with frequent rests and an all-day proposition.  Mirka sanders are specifically designed for mesh abrasives, which is I gather is your preferred type.

Anecdotally, DEROS users are generally pretty happy with their purchase, with the exception of the plug-in power cables, which apparently are even less reliable than the Festool equivalent!  They apparently aren't even covered by the tool's warranty either, in my estimation a huge black mark against the brand.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2017, 06:45 PM »
The RO 150 is far more powerful.

If we look at the numbers the RO 150 is a 720 watt sander, the Deros 500 watt. That's 31% more current the Ro150 sander could draw over the Deros. Even tech larger sanding stroke of 8 verse 5 just cant make up for raw power advantage.

If I thought the Deros removed the stock as fast as the RO 150 I would not have returned it. In side by side tests the RO is faster in my shop. Actually, the Deros was only marginally faster than the Festool EC and not enough to make me keep it and the Festool EC is only a 400 watt sander.

I never tested the 8 stroke because I dont want additional sanding it would require for me. I am not even sure if I could get that 8 stroke, I never looked in to it. I find it hard to believe the 8 stroke could overcome 30% more power in any sanding mode though.

Both in starndard mode?

Everyone I have heard on the subject says that the RO "when not doing geared" is slower, and that a lot of the power drives the head.

In geared mode of course it it faster. Maybe not as good as a RAS.

Are we comparing apples and apples (In non-geared mode)?

Also I thought the DEROS is 450W, not 500W.
( in 110v land, of if one is adverse to a paddle switch, the ETS/EC is pretty much the same as the DEROS)
I have the 5650 unless the motor is working the extra watts are no advantage. I have to really push into it to get the full watts. (And I do not)

The RO is 3600-6000 rpm, the DEROS is 4000-10000. (Advantage DEROS)
The bigger the stroke the better for removal, and I assume both were 5-mm?

As I do not have the sanders to compare, these are somewhat questions.

Offline fuzzy logic

  • Posts: 336
Re: Sander for rapid removal of stock.
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2017, 04:38 AM »
Hi Phils. 

I know nothing removing anti-foul coatings! 
So might barking up the wrong tree - so I'll dive in and see what you think. 

Might abrasive sheets tend to clog up easily - if so, maybe slow you down? 

Picking up on what Holmz said - wonder if scraping first would be helpful? 
Be much easier to then smooth down what's left? 

What about one of those infra-red thingies? 
http://tensiduk.com/product-list/speedheater-infrared-paintstripper 
There are accessories available to have the heater be close to the surface,
whilst removing adjacent coating. 

I'll leave it at that - you get the idea. 

Let us know how you get on - your experience will be worth knowing about.   

Richard (UK)
Decent people do the right thing - always?