Author Topic: Someone was having an off day at festool recon  (Read 4416 times)

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Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1244
Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« on: March 10, 2019, 10:41 AM »
Ordered  an OF 2200 via recon, which arrived the other day. It will go back on monday when I can get to UPS.

To be clear, I think that this is nothing other than a (careless) mistake.

That said, I do hope that festool is NOT taking tools sent in for repair and determined to be "too expensive to repair", repairing them and then sending them out as recons.

I'll let the pictures tell the story.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Festool USA

  • Festool USA Employee
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    • Festool USA
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2019, 10:53 AM »
Sorry to see this. I’ll reach out to you directly to get you taken care of.

(Tyler)

Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1244
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2019, 11:12 AM »
Just so everyone is clear where my head is at on this:

I called Festool service immediately and received a return shipping label promptly.

I found more humor in this than anything else. We all have off moments and there is little doubt in my mind that is all it was. An oops. nothing more. nothing less.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 188
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2019, 11:33 AM »
Should have been a warning "some assembly required".

I took a recon TS75 w/rail plunge a few weeks back. As far as I could inspect the items were never used.


Mike

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5490
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2019, 12:00 PM »
I bought a ETS150/3 from recon and it looked brand new when I got it.

Yeh mistakes happen, as long as they make it right which it seems like they are life is good

Offline deepcreek

  • Posts: 779
    • TimberFire Studio
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2019, 12:19 PM »
Looks like the contents may have shifted during shipping.  Perfectly normal.   ;)
Joe Adams
TimberFire Studio
Houston, Texas

http://www.facebook.com/timberfire

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1866
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2019, 12:48 PM »
I have purchased a couple of recon items and they always look brand new.
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS, C18, HL850, Vac Sys set

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2149
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2019, 01:02 PM »
Evidently they need to hire Bob's shipping dept so things don't get so rattled.  Seriously though, glad your sense of humor is intact. Doo doo occurs

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2019, 01:51 PM »
Yes stuff happens.  And getting out on the internet can be embarrassing.

But then there is the non-embarrassing :  a company representative replying on a Sunday morning within 10 minutes of a post on a forum. 

 [thumbs up] [thumbs up] @Festool USA

Peter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 413
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2019, 01:59 PM »
Was the Allen wrench to assemble the RTA (router to assemble) kit in there?

I suppose someone out their might be really impressed with the repair Festool did to their router, now it runs and looks brand new again.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2019, 07:02 PM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?

I know this is technology etc, and the designs work well most of the time, but still.

I suppose it’s design cost and tooling, that the bean counters would mention if asked to justify the cost.

Offline SilviaS7

  • Posts: 34
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2019, 07:53 PM »
They forgot to tell you that sometimes there's some assembly required, hahahah. 

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3308
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2019, 07:59 PM »
i didnt know ikea sold festool
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 413
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2019, 09:35 PM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?

I know this is technology etc, and the designs work well most of the time, but still.

I suppose it’s design cost and tooling, that the bean counters would mention if asked to justify the cost.

Plastic in stuff like this isn't their because of cost savings.  It's their for good reasons, such as weight reduction, electrical isolation, etc. Plastic is not cheap. Die Cast aluminum can look nice, but it's very heavy, wouldn't like a lot of impacts they tool could see.  Plastic can save money, but it's not an automatic thing. Engineering good plastic part design takes a lot of work.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2019, 10:04 PM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but it’s you. [poke]  [big grin]

Think about some of the best German firearms, H&K and Glock. Both prefer some polymer parts for their handguns. Maybe 30 years ago it was a sign of cheaping out, but when dealing with modern, quality conscious manufacturers, it’s a sign of optimizing the material for the function.

Another way to look at it is that while the cost of the polymer pellets is minimal, (they’re delivered to the molding facility in box cars)  the injection molds needed to mold the parts are extremely expensive. So if the molded part costs just 30 cents, the injection mold to make it may cost $100,000 or more.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 10:49 PM by Cheese »

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 123
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2019, 02:35 AM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?
Isn’t it always something?

Maybe they try to keep it light? I assume they understand you need to drag (for many) everything with you, and trying to to keep it as light as possible, save your back [emoji6].

So, I’m not so sure if the only reason is just to save money.




Offline ryanjg117

  • Posts: 133
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2019, 03:22 AM »
Are you guys still getting regular recon emails? I used to get multiple a day but it's been awhile...

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 733
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2019, 05:22 AM »
It ebbs and flows. I got a bunch of recon emails on Friday. I don't think there were any over the weekend.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2019, 09:37 AM »
Festool's been hitting it hard lately.
7 different tools on Monday
3 different tools on Tuesday
7 different tools on Friday

None over the weekend I believe.

With TS 75's offered on both Monday & Friday.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3822
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2019, 09:41 AM »
harry_ said,  “Ordered  an OF 2200 via recon, which arrived the other day. It will go back on monday when I can get to UPS.”

Hope this doesn’t mean there’s a perfectly good OF 2200 sitting in a landfill...

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 988
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2019, 09:45 AM »
Sure looks like that is how some one sent it into Festool claiming it needed repair!
Or is that what is referred to as an “open box special”?
 [wink]

Was at a class a few years ago at US headquarters and got to watch the service techs in action. Was really impressed with that.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2019, 10:21 AM »
Hope this doesn’t mean there’s a perfectly good OF 2200 sitting in a landfill...

You're probably right Michael, it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the photos. If the bad one got sent out, where did the good one get sent to?


Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 936
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2019, 01:29 PM »
i didnt know ikea sold festool

LMAO!   [laughing]
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2019, 04:32 PM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but it’s you. [poke]  [big grin]

Think about some of the best German firearms, H&K and Glock. Both prefer some polymer parts for their handguns. Maybe 30 years ago it was a sign of cheaping out, but when dealing with modern, quality conscious manufacturers, it’s a sign of optimizing the material for the function.

Another way to look at it is that while the cost of the polymer pellets is minimal, (they’re delivered to the molding facility in box cars)  the injection molds needed to mold the parts are extremely expensive. So if the molded part costs just 30 cents, the injection mold to make it may cost $100,000 or more.

Haha! Fair enough Cheese, I will adopt the “plastic is fantastic” train of thought in future.

I also figured out why a lot of stuff used to be made in cast iron, it’s in the event of an issue, the said tool is too heavy to pack away for return.  [doh] [thumbs up]

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 413
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2019, 08:21 PM »
When you actually see the amount of plastic parts used nowadays in a power tool, it’s difficult to connect it with the price tag, or is it me?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but it’s you. [poke]  [big grin]

Think about some of the best German firearms, H&K and Glock. Both prefer some polymer parts for their handguns. Maybe 30 years ago it was a sign of cheaping out, but when dealing with modern, quality conscious manufacturers, it’s a sign of optimizing the material for the function.

Another way to look at it is that while the cost of the polymer pellets is minimal, (they’re delivered to the molding facility in box cars)  the injection molds needed to mold the parts are extremely expensive. So if the molded part costs just 30 cents, the injection mold to make it may cost $100,000 or more.

Haha! Fair enough Cheese, I will adopt the “plastic is fantastic” train of thought in future.

I also figured out why a lot of stuff used to be made in cast iron, it’s in the event of an issue, the said tool is too heavy to pack away for return.  [doh] [thumbs up]

Well, for a long time the options were 1) Wood  2) Cast Iron 3) Rock.    Cast Iron has nice properties for a lot of stuff, but moving it around is no good. It's also really cheap.  And tons of junk was made in Cast Iron,  most of that junk got melted down in WWII.  Survivor bias is an issue here.  Yup the old stuff was made of metal, and it's still here.  Problem is everything was made of metal/wood, most of it was junk even new, and you now only see the stuff that didn't suck, thus is survived.  Go to any estate sale, you can find lots of old metal tools, drills, etc. No one is grabbing it as even the cheapest drill in the hardware store today is vastly better.

One other aspect beyond weight with plastic is size. You just can get the wall thicknesses down with the metal parts. You would have to machine stuff down. If you trying to go to thing, you will have a lot of scap parts, plastic, you can go much thinner with much less issue. So when you start having complex nested parts. The only way you are making them metal is a lot of machining to very expensive parts.

Don't be fooled to think metal is so much better and that's why various vendors of stuff folks here buy use it. CNC aluminum is nothing special, what it is good for is making low volume parts cheap. Tooling up for plastic stuff would cost far to much.  But trying to make those parts in high volume or mass market prices in CNC aluminum, not going to happen.

If someone wanted to pay a lot of money for tool and die creation, and setting up with an injection molding shop, someone could make plastic bench dogs really cheap that would work just as good, and if you beat them up, just toss them and use some new ones.  It's the tooling cost that just wouldn't fly.

Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1244
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2019, 09:44 PM »
harry_ said,  “Ordered  an OF 2200 via recon, which arrived the other day. It will go back on monday when I can get to UPS.”

Hope this doesn’t mean there’s a perfectly good OF 2200 sitting in a landfill...

OR...... they meant to shi this one back to its owner and he got the recon one instead.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2019, 10:34 AM »
Tooling up for plastic stuff would cost far too much. 

If someone wanted to pay a lot of money for tool and die creation, and setting up with an injection molding shop, someone could make plastic bench dogs really cheap that would work just as good, and if you beat them up, just toss them and use some new ones.  It's the tooling cost that just wouldn't fly.

As a frame of reference, in 1979 I was working as a tool designer at 3M. The tool designer that sat across from me designed a 32 cavity mold that produced clear windows for VHS tapes.

Multiple request for quotes were sent out to local and out of state mold makers, including an internal request to the 3M tool & die shop which was housed in a building that covered 2-3 football fields. It was a big operation and they could have easily handled the mold making task.

The winning bid was granted to Caco Pacific in California to the tune of......wait for it......$250,000 for one 32 cavity mold.  In today's dollars that's the equivalent $867,000.

So while plastic resin can be inexpensive, that's only one part of the story.


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2019, 10:55 AM »
Well, for a long time the options were 1) Wood  2) Cast Iron 3) Rock.    Cast Iron has nice properties for a lot of stuff, but moving it around is no good. It's also really cheap.  And tons of junk was made in Cast Iron,  most of that junk got melted down in WWII.  Survivor bias is an issue here.  Yup the old stuff was made of metal, and it's still here.  Problem is everything was made of metal/wood, most of it was junk even new, and you now only see the stuff that didn't suck, thus is survived.  Go to any estate sale, you can find lots of old metal tools, drills, etc. No one is grabbing it as even the cheapest drill in the hardware store today is vastly better.

One other aspect beyond weight with plastic is size. You just can get the wall thicknesses down with the metal parts. You would have to machine stuff down. If you trying to go to thing, you will have a lot of scap parts, plastic, you can go much thinner with much less issue. So when you start having complex nested parts. The only way you are making them metal is a lot of machining to very expensive parts.

Don't be fooled to think metal is so much better and that's why various vendors of stuff folks here buy use it. CNC aluminum is nothing special, what it is good for is making low volume parts cheap. Tooling up for plastic stuff would cost far to much.  But trying to make those parts in high volume or mass market prices in CNC aluminum, not going to happen.

If someone wanted to pay a lot of money for tool and die creation, and setting up with an injection molding shop, someone could make plastic bench dogs really cheap that would work just as good, and if you beat them up, just toss them and use some new ones.  It's the tooling cost that just wouldn't fly.

Hi DT, Yes deep down I know the days of heavy solid machinery are long gone, and todays technology and methods, and materials, produce some fine tools, of superb precision, and easier to move and transport.

I get a bit sad sometimes though, when I replace an old tool that’s given great service and durability, often made with lots of cast iron that had a great finish and strength. Then I find that the current day equivelant is mainly plastic, and cast alloy.
In honesty though, I know and understand that it’s performance and durability that matter with tools.

“They don’t make em like they used too” Which in some cases is just as well!  ;)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3822
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 11:55 AM »
Clever engineering can replace a lot of mass but but I know how affection can develop for a big lump of cast iron that has helped you be productive for many years.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3822
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2019, 11:59 AM »
@Cheese   It’s hard to imagine how something so small could cost so much to produce. I guess there has to be many iterations of mold before the cooled plastic that results conforms to specs?

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 12:26 PM »
Clever engineering can replace a lot of mass but but I know how affection can develop for a big lump of cast iron that has helped you be productive for many years.

True Michael, I do get sentimental about the old stuff, even some of the old plastic stuff.
I was clearing out a storage container the other day, and found my first ever cordless drill/driver, not in great shape but, there were two batteries and a charger in the case with it. When I get time I’ll see if it still works. It’s 40+ years old, and I saved for a few months to buy it. A plastic antique almost, I could never part with it though.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2019, 01:42 PM »
@Cheese   It’s hard to imagine how something so small could cost so much to produce. I guess there has to be many iterations of mold before the cooled plastic that results conforms to specs?

There's only one iteration of a mold that's needed. When designing the cavity and force (the steel parts in which the item is molded), you always go "steel safe". Just like woodworking, it's always better to sneak up on the dimension if it's critical. There will however be multiple iterations of part design to get the molded part into specs. Some of the specs can be achieved through tweaking the molding process, while others can only be achieved in tweaking/machining the cavity & force, thus the need to be "steel safe".

Costs are the largest reason a lot of mold building is done off-shore because of all the hand work involved. In the case of the VHS windows the cavity and force have to be polished by hand to a mirror finish to achieve the clarity necessary for the window. They also have to be perfectly smooth across the entire surface. Any undulations in the steel will be visible and magnified which then negates the function of the window in the first place. In some respects, mold making is similar to fine watch making from tolerance and labor perspectives.

I only brought up this subject to shed light on the fact that quality molded parts are expensive to produce and there's a lot more additional costs to "squirting" quality molded parts than the cost of the resin.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3822
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2019, 07:26 PM »
In making such a mold, how big would it be? How many of those little plastic “windows” would be injected at once? How many people could be involved in producing the mold to run up such a high cost?

Just curious. In my ignorance I’m imagining one highly skilled person working full time on the thing. Even if it takes all year how could that effort become a bill for 1/4 million$?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 413
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2019, 10:03 PM »
In making such a mold, how big would it be? How many of those little plastic “windows” would be injected at once? How many people could be involved in producing the mold to run up such a high cost?

Just curious. In my ignorance I’m imagining one highly skilled person working full time on the thing. Even if it takes all year how could that effort become a bill for 1/4 million$?

Even molds for small parts get big.  I've installed molds that were literally just to try wearing them out, just keep making the same thing all day, to test wear, parts come out, get grind up, and go thru machine again.  Just made a small part,  the model weighs 100s of lbs.  Keep in mind it's not just the cavity, which as mentioned are polished and controlled to extreme tolerances, but the steel they are in needs cooling ports as they are liquid cooled.

Go more extreme look up die casting. Companies like honda die-cast engine blocks, those tools cost a fortune and need regular replacement (they wear out). There have even been efforts to die cast steel, which then requires dies made of tungsten (this process hasn't been utilized much beyond test).  Automotive industry has to plan in the swap of the dies as they wear out. This is in part of why models get discontinued, die was end of life with just enough life to support service part requirements. But if they go an make another die, then they will crank them out for a good while longer as they have sunk the cost in the die. Not so long ago a company that does parts for the F-150 burned down.  Ford had to get a die rushed from the other side of world and hired an entire aircraft to get it fast.

All of this also goes to why companies like Festool don't change the designs often, they have to pay off the dies for those parts, and then decide to do a re-design or continue with another run. So unless they make a major mistake, they will live with it (possibly relevant to the Kapex).  Look at the tilt on the TS55, that change required them change the basil platten for the -F,  doubtful they made a new die, they probably did a re-work on the one they had, which would not have been cheap either.   Look at any die cast or plastic part on a Festool product and start thinking that tool might cost 50-100,000 USD, then think about how many of that model tool they sell,  the price starts to present itself.

Part of the cost is you have a large block of high quality tool steel, maybe each half cost 4000 USD for the blank.  Basic machining to mount it in a machine, maybe a few days, along with gun drilling and putting ports in it for the cooling.  lets say that step takes 4 days, 8hr shift, 32hrs,  machine time runs 150 bucks and hour, 4800 dollars there.  So now you can start to carve the actual shape.  Now you are using small mills to carve slow and accurate, and steel machines much slower than aluminum. Even a simple shape if it's on a mill for 2 weeks, 80hrs, x 150 hr, there is 12grand.  so now each half is up to 20k each. Then you need to get a skilled craftsman to get in there with hand tools detailing parts, then polishing it, etc. Mo money, it just goes on.  Before you know if you are 30-40k per half.   Even when you go off shore you still have to pay the CNC machine and those cost the same in all countries, got to pay for that machine, and when you got a 1million dollar mill tied up for a month making your tool, you are going to pay a lot of money to pay for that machine.  It's not unlike folks here. The clients are paying for your tools, you buy the tools to do the job and if you need a tool for a job, you price it into the job.  When you start cutting steel in complex shapes, it's all expensive.  Even having simple parts carved of steel if they are large, they get expensive fast and take weeks to make.  I had a part that couldn't be cast rapidly at the time, it was machined, just happened to start with a block that weighed in the 1000s and got cut down to into the 100s when done,  End part cost about $100/lb in the end, nothing special, it just took a few weeks to carve.

Look at things like systainers, it's obvious why they cost so much, it's the dies to make them, straight sides means hard to make and complex die designs.

It cost a lot of money to make parts cheaply.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2019, 10:48 PM »
In making such a mold, how big would it be? How many of those little plastic “windows” would be injected at once? How many people could be involved in producing the mold to run up such a high cost?

Just curious. In my ignorance I’m imagining one highly skilled person working full time on the thing. Even if it takes all year how could that effort become a bill for 1/4 million$?

Well if it's a 32 cavity mold then 32 windows would be produced at the same time. So one shot...pretty impressive, the mold opens and 32 windows are ejected at the same time into a bucket. 

While I can't address the costs to produce the mold as i only designed the things, in the case of the 32 window mold, there are 32 forces and 32 cavities that need to be machined. So that's 64 items that all need to be held within .0005" of each other because once these windows are ejected from the molding press they need to be interchanged with each other on a production basis. There is no savings in sorting parts. Squirt them all and produce them within a narrow tolerance window and you're golden.

Having the need to sort them for size and your business is toast.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2019, 10:51 AM »
Well as @DeformedTree just eloquently stated, Mo Money...You just need Mo Money. [big grin]

Also thanks for the great explanation as far as some of the subtleties of mold making and die-casting. I tried to keep my answers short because I'm just lazy and didn't feel like typing, however you hit the nail on the head.  [smile]

With the 32 cavity tool I mentioned, it was determined early in the design stage, that the completed mold would physically fit in an existing Cincinnati molding press and the press also had enough tonnage to clamp the mold shut when the plastic was being injected.

Unfortunately, theory sometimes collides with reality and while the new mold fit in the Cincinnati press, when fired up, it continually "blew clamp" which means that the press was unable to clamp the mold shut when the plastic was being injected. So a new larger tonnage Cincinnati molding press was then purchased. Mo Money...

http://www.pmplastic.com/true-cost-plastic-injection-mold/

Here's a photo of a med-large sized Cincinnati. It has a clamp force of 2250 tons, is capable of holding a mold that's approx 4' x 5' and weighing up to 60 tons.


Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2019, 12:34 PM »
Thanks guys!

Decades ago I read about pattern making for making molds for cast iron (and ended up buying an Emmett Pattermaker’s Vise that was cast the year I was born) so I thought I knew a little about mold making.

It now seems like patterns for cast iron are about as similar to injection molds as carriages are to contemporary automobiles.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2019, 05:25 PM »
I have to admit that I have enjoyed reading the diversions in his thread about making plastic parts.  If you aren't involved in that part of manufacturing you just wouldn't know.

Thanks!

Peter

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 585
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2019, 11:17 PM »
harry_ said,  “Ordered  an OF 2200 via recon, which arrived the other day. It will go back on monday when I can get to UPS.”

Hope this doesn’t mean there’s a perfectly good OF 2200 sitting in a landfill...

OR...... they meant to shi this one back to its owner and he got the recon one instead.

Or, this systainer just got put on the wrong shelf where someone thought they were pulling a recon to ship out (I doubt they open them and verify the contents before sending).  They’re may have only been one mistake and it could have happened long before you bought a recon.


Offline Cheese

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2019, 12:43 PM »
In making such a mold, how big would it be?  How many people could be involved in producing the mold to run up such a high cost?

A couple of things I forgot to mention that add to the price tag. First off is that every feature on the piece part needs to have some draft on it so that it will eject easily from the mold. All structural ribs, all vertical walls, any screw bosses, everything needs to be drafted at 1º-2º, preferably more. Even if the window is only 1/8" thick, the sides cannot be straight there has to be draft. All the draft just adds to the time necessary for machine setup and machining.

Secondly, the mold base that holds the cavity & force isn't cheap. A medium sized mold base will run $5000-$10,000 and it's basically just several very thick chunks of precision machined metal plate. The flatness tolerance is .0005" per foot while the leader pin/bushings (the equivalent of posts on a plunge router) are held to .0003"-.0005". Just Mo Money.  [big grin]

Here's an interesting photo of a very simple 2 cavity mold used to make those styrene cups that I mix epoxy in. One mold base split into a cavity and a force with 4 leader pins and minimal cooling. It does't get much simpler than this. Yet look at the amount of steel that's needed to get the job done for a high production mold. That tool is probably close to 500#.  [eek]



A typical DME mold base before any machining.



« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 09:57 AM by Cheese »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2019, 12:55 PM »
It’s nice to see plenty of metal still being used, even if it is for the molds to make the plastic parts!  [big grin] [thumbs up]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2019, 08:32 PM »
Thanks again, it’s very interesting to me.

Do you have any problem with epoxy melting the styrene cup?

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2019, 11:13 PM »
As cheese mentions,  draft is what drive a lot of the design. I don't make stuff for injection molding (experience with them was long ago), but I do design for castings. Drafts are part of the deal, but make stuff complicated fast for the person designing it. Plus you have to think in reverse for everything.  A fillet is actually a radius, a radius is a fillet, since you may be modeling your end part, but what you are really designing is the mold/tool, so it all gets machined the other way around. I have nice 3D solid modeling to spin around and see it, section it, how the old timers did it, I really don't know, of course I also have to re-create stuff that goes back into the 1940s and the basic answer is they made plenty of mistakes on the drawings that the foundry person fixed. (side note, if you want to know a reason why I hate inches and fractions, it is in part because I'm forced to deal with old  drawings and bring to the computer age and you see constantly why fractions and inches in fact do not work, .38+.25=.62 according to old timers). Files and sandpaper on wood can fudge a lot of things to work when math says it doesn't. Injection mold die people don't get to work with wood for their tooling.

When it comes to injection molded stuff with straight walls, I can really only imagine the very complex tools to make them, as you can't just pull in one direction, they will have to look like some sort of transformer exploding to get everything together and back again.  On a simple level, it explains why things like totes and containers with straight walls cost so much more than their taper walled cousins.

Offline harry_

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2019, 11:44 PM »
Festool service has again proven to be top notch.

Received my replacement router today.

Life is good.

 [thanks]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Cheese

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2019, 12:53 AM »
Thanks again, it’s very interesting to me.

Do you have any problem with epoxy melting the styrene cup?

None at all, look at the Simpson door refinishing review and you’ll see several of those cups in use. For me it’s the most inexpensive method to accurately measure the mixing of epoxy because I don’t use the stuff that often. However when you need to use it, it’s best that you’re proportions are accurate.

If you need a 3:1 mixture, I’ll take a shot glass and pour in 3 units of water into the styrene cup, mark it with a magic marker and then pour in 1 unit of water and mark it. Pour out the water, dry the cup and add the real deal.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2019, 01:25 AM »
Thanks for that @DeformedTree... I tried to keep my synopsis about the project and not about me but you’re description of the design process is telling.  [big grin]

You do have to literally think inside out in order to design an injection mold, especially if it was before the advent of CAD. I did everything on “the board” so the design had to be within your head or you’d be toast.

Just curious if Starrett shrink rules are still used in die casting? I know it sounds stupid...but I always wanted to use one but the shrink rates of metal are obviously different than the shrink rates of plastic.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5618
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2019, 01:40 AM »
It’s nice to see plenty of metal still being used, even if it is for the molds to make the plastic parts!  [big grin] [thumbs up]

Jiggy...you’re funny.  [big grin]   From a denier to a believer in just 3 days... there is a God.  [smile]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2019, 08:35 AM »
Thanks for that @DeformedTree... I tried to keep my synopsis about the project and not about me but you’re description of the design process is telling.  [big grin]

You do have to literally think inside out in order to design an injection mold, especially if it was before the advent of CAD. I did everything on “the board” so the design had to be within your head or you’d be toast.

Just curious if Starrett shrink rules are still used in die casting? I know it sounds stupid...but I always wanted to use one but the shrink rates of metal are obviously different than the shrink rates of plastic.

Now that you don’t need them (for a couple of reasons) you could easily make one-off custom shrink scales. Temporary with an inkjet printer or permanent with laser engraving.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 413
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2019, 09:58 AM »

Just curious if Starrett shrink rules are still used in die casting? I know it sounds stupid...but I always wanted to use one but the shrink rates of metal are obviously different than the shrink rates of plastic.

I think I know what you are referring to. So I think most folks have moved on from the old ideas of shrink, now with computers, you can just take the model, enlarge it the correct percentage for shrink and have the mill carve based on that bigger model.  I think when they make the part it's like anything else, soon as it's solid enough to get out of tool, die, mold, get it out so it can keep shrinking.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2019, 01:59 PM »
Yes stuff happens.  And getting out on the internet can be embarrassing.

But then there is the non-embarrassing :  a company representative replying on a Sunday morning within 10 minutes of a post on a forum. 

 [thumbs up] [thumbs up] @Festool USA

Peter

  Agree 100% Pete. Well done  Tyler@festool.
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2019, 02:11 PM »
  I  get that plastic doesn't necessarily mean cheap and as stated in many instances can be the prefereed material of choice.
 But there is plastic and there is plastic.  Case in point on the CT vac hose garage area. The other day I dropped a tool on it  and a chunk of the hose garage cracked - the tool was not that heavy. Yesterday as a customer (who bought my CT 36) was taking off the Work Center, the small "prongs" that you place the WC on snapped/cracked. Great vacs for sure and I bet over the years I don't think I had more than 1 or 2 returns  and that speaks volumes, but I do wish they  made that plastic less fragile.
 And this is just me but I have a Milwaukee corded drill I bought 20 or so years ago, and there's a lot of metal in that drill and has enough power to snap your wrist off if not careful, came in a metal box too. I am no drill expert or engineer, but I would bet that drill would outperform and outlast any "similar" drill made today. Yep, it's heavy, but an example of "they don't/can't/won't  make 'em like this anymore."
Former Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2019, 02:38 PM »
It’s nice to see plenty of metal still being used, even if it is for the molds to make the plastic parts!  [big grin] [thumbs up]

Jiggy...you’re funny.  [big grin]   From a denier to a believer in just 3 days... there is a God.  [smile]

Haha! Thanks Cheese, as old as I am, I’m still open to persuasion. I must be learning, as yesterday and today, two CTM 26’s arrived, and that’s a lot of plastic but, I still found myself gazing in amazement at them!  [eek] [big grin]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2019, 03:18 PM »
I like some features of the Festool vacs a lot but not the large number of parts made of relatively brittle ABS plastic. They rattle, make noise, and are much more prone to breaking than the thick polyethylene that some manufacturers use.

I hope the good features serve you well and nothing breaks.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 141
Re: Someone was having an off day at festool recon
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2019, 04:04 PM »
I like some features of the Festool vacs a lot but not the large number of parts made of relatively brittle ABS plastic. They rattle, make noise, and are much more prone to breaking than the thick polyethylene that some manufacturers use.

I hope the good features serve you well and nothing breaks.

I can only agree Michael, mine obviously have the new type garage/tops, and they certainly don’t look like they’d take much more than a glancing blow from a knee when bumping into them? Maybe a thin alloy top might have been a better albeit more expensive solution? I must resist the urge to think metal can take the place of plastic on a modern machine though.  [tongue]

Joking aside, I put one of the CTM AC’s to task today, and I am honestly very pleased and impressed with them. I’m even getting used to the noise of the AC doing it’s thing!
vorsprung durch plastik! So to speak  [wink]