Author Topic: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.  (Read 28759 times)

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Offline glass1

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2017, 06:45 PM »
Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2017, 06:48 PM »
Would love to see a @Peter Parfitt review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..
That is the last time I leave the iPhone next to the bed...

I have had several cheap and cheerful saws in my time as well as some very cheap and not so clever cars. For me the KS120 is a "Rolls Royce" of a saw. It would be nice to think that the KS60 was the "BMW" but then aren't they one and the same thing?

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2017, 06:53 PM »
Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

I think that people should get to a store and see a demo as soon as they come to their area. I always advise people to go and look at and, if they can, try equipment. Nobody can cover everything in a review and sometimes users have their own very clear and firm set ideas about certain aspects which might not apply to or be spotted by a reviewer.

Peter

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2017, 07:14 PM »
At the risk of waking @Peter Parfitt from his beauty sleep! Oh I just did! 😈 [eek]

Last week I visited my dealer to purchase some dust bags. There it was, the KS60 on display. Yes the build quality was obviously excellent. The movement smooth and action smooth. Could not switch it on though and I had limited time.

 Will this probably be my next Festool purchase - likely, but there is also an ageing CT22 to replace soon.

Do I still think my original criticisms of the table height were justified? Well after reading this post for nearly a month now, with some others raising other critical elements, some of which I agree, others definitely not - Yes I do!


If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline antss

  • Posts: 647
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2017, 07:26 PM »
I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.   That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

Does this argument about £80 machines also apply to the cars or vans that people drive?

Does anyone remember the Trabants rolling into Germany after the Wall came down? I could get quite a few of them for the price of my car. Is there a similar thing going on between guys with Sprinters and those...less well appointed vehicles?

Now I have thrown that into the pot I am off to bed.

Good night everyone.

Peter


Of course. 

Both will get you where you want to go, but no one will mistake it for a Benz.  But when that Benz doesn't quite live up to the Benz moniker.....................................and the ads and salesmen keep on that they do. It'd be like saying it's (benz)  fast and light and has great boot space and is high quality and the Traubi actually having more boot space, and going as fast and being as light.  That's the corundum I've posed. 

And to be fair, the 80q saw I'm talking about will way outlast a Traubi and is much closer in fit & finish and quality to the Kapex than a Traubi was to any Western produced car.   It might just outlast a ks60 in 110v if FT hasn't made changes to those motors.  I'm sure none of us want a thread titled "KS60 motor failures" .  Which brings me back to the quality vs. price issue.  It's one thing to say something is better made, but when the failure rate data doesn't seem to back that up - people get antsy.

You guys want to wax on about how how light ks60 is; and accurate; and has a light , and fits the system - and seem to take offense when ACTUAL festool customers tell you kinda missed the system boat, competitors' saws are lighter and have more capacity - to which you respond "well there's the FT quality" which might very well be dubious given big brother kapex's woes.  That's the stuff people get frustrated with - the lack of acknowledgement that there even MIGHT BE something the designers overlooked or didn't match on the competition, or that quality could be an issue.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:39 PM by antss »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2017, 07:31 PM »
The pain of cost is gone long before the bitterness of poor quality.

Cost and value are two different things.

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Tom

Offline antss

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2017, 07:41 PM »
That cost pain may not have subsided if you have a burned out Kapex
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:44 PM by antss »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2017, 08:16 PM »
Wow.  Such heated conversations when so few have even touched the tool.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Online Cheese

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2017, 10:07 PM »
Ya well, so far it's all he said...she said...but it's all about putting your paws on the saw before weighing in.

This is an important "come to Jesus time..." Some of these items seem clunky until you use them, some of these items seem like the next hurrah until you use them. You have to touch it and use it before your opinion can carry any weight. Anything short of that is just blowing smoke up someone's pooper.

Offline Timtool

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2017, 02:44 AM »
@antss
So basically you would be happy if the KS60 would cost as much as the cheapest competitor, be as big as the KS120 for compatibility issues, but also be smaller and lighter than the smallest and lightest competitor while maintaining the same accuracy and solidity as the KS120, all while being made by people in the west who are paid fair wages, instead of far eastern modern slaves?

At some point you will have to agree that combination isn't possible, and that a solid and accurate saw made in Germany is going to weigh and cost more than the cheapest lightest made in China one out there.
Yes there is a lack of serious innovation, but my KS120 is now 10 years old and honestly nobody has come up with a better package, neither did Festool themselves with the KS60. Maybe that just tells how good the 120 really still is.
TS55R, CT22E, CTLmini, CTL MIDI, CTM 36 AC HD, Kapex KS120, ETS125, ETS150/5, RO150, RO90, CXS-set, T-15+3 set, DTS400, OF900, OF1010, OF2200 set, Carvex PS420 EBQ set, EHL 65, SSU 200, Centrotec installer set, LR32-sys, FS-800, FS-LR-1400x2, domino 500+domino sys, domino 700 XL, Surfix-sys, Sys-box 1, Syslite, LEV-350, Sys-box,MFTB/1-2-4... MFTC

Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2017, 02:55 AM »
Ok, I actually own the saw now so at least I can _weigh in_ with some user input. Pun intended.

Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

This statement is partially not true. It is _not_ a lightweight saw. It is actually quite heavy! The closest competitor is the Metabo KGS 72 Xact without the SYM feature - it is lighter, a whole lot cheaper, has better cut capacity and is more or less the same construction as the Kapex KS60 with dual bevel and no back protrusion when cutting. Then there are same class saws that are considerably lighter than the Metabo. The first negative I experienced with the KS60 is that it is heavier than expected.

60 degree miters is good to have, but how often would you actually use it? I think I have never needed to go past 50 and my old, much lighter Makita does 57, has no dual bevel but better cut capacity at around 5kg/11lbs less. The Makita I carry in one hand easily.  Some of my toolboxes are even heavier than the KS60 and I lug them around all the time but I can hold them closer to the body and carry one on each side. The KS60 makes for a very lopsided walk unless you use both hands. 

I did own the KS120 but it was too big for me as I worked mostly on site and very seldom needed that cut capacity so for the most part I took the Makita and it did well. The KS60 for me will hopefully be the right size cut capacity and the accuracy I am hoping to get out of it. Weight does bother me a little though. 

EDIT: I agree with Timtools that the KS120 was very innovative when it came out. The KS60 does not do much when it comes to upholding that legacy. Shadow line cut has already been done so I don't see the innovation here, really. Metabo would in that case be _more_ innovative with incorporating the SYM feature in a sliding saw. You can also use the SYM feature to go waaaaaaay past 60 degrees. ;)

Conclusion is that I do think the KS60 is overpriced. It may still be a great little cousin to the KS120 although it feels more of a little cousin to the KS88.

Enough ranting, I am actually off to _using_ the KS60 now.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:04 AM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
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Offline fuzzy logic

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2017, 05:25 AM »
Look like could be really useful size saw for a lot people. 
Always liked idea of 'shadow line' against lasers. 

With some hesitation - am wondering when will start to get some input from Mrs. Parfitt.  [unsure]
Might have some helpful things to say about Mr. Parfitts's borrowed, for review, tools - just curious. 

Richard (UK)
Decent people do the right thing - always?

Offline ach_78

  • Posts: 41
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2017, 08:37 AM »
Just like german car makers are especially greedy on options, Festool is especially greedy on accessories.
Most of them are ridiculously priced. Yes, ridiculously. Now these KS60 feet are no exception.

Not better or worse that most of the accessories product line...

Offline Jimdude

  • Posts: 27
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2017, 09:07 AM »
For those who haven't seen a decent side view of the KS 60.
(Attachment Link)
Disclaimer: the KS60 is the saw I'm most likely (*) going to buy when my current slider goes "poof". The form factor is just about perfect for my needs, I know I'll love the accuracy, and the cost… well, it costs more but not that much more than the alternative (which is of course the Metabo) - this spoken from a hobbyist perspective who'll "devalue" this purchase over 20 years or so. So, for less than 20 bucks per year, spread over 20 years, I get to look at a Festool in my basement (well, apart from looking at it, I'd use it too!). I'm sure that makes me a tool-snob, which is fine by me. I'm supposed to enjoy myself when I'm woodworking, and part of ~my~ enjoyment comes from using good tools. This will be different for other people, and I'm happy for them (slightly envious too, since their hobby will be cheaper than mine!).

So, that said: the example mitres on that KS60-stand are an insult to Festool. The bottom left one does not even appear to be a straight cut. The mitre is open on both ends.


(*) It's 100% certainty at the moment, but knowing my "luck", my current saw is going to last another 20 years, by which time there might be better alternatives than the KS60.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2017, 11:08 AM »
Having just read thru this thread (the title put me off for a while), a couple of things come to mind:

Even if your products conform to a 'system' there are times when one has to leave that behind & move forward. Eg I don't remember there being this much furore when the MFT/3 launched. That was quite a step forward from the earlier models: different size, different profile, and even A FEW CENTIMETERS higher. Why weren't all users of the older models clamoring for height adapters, etc.? Well, at least the holes were the same!  [tongue]

Innovation. There are only so much ways to combine a motor, a blade and other stuff. After the real invention has happened, the rest is modification (eg the iPhone). If you want 'innovation' first and foremost, you will have to wait for the first consumer grade waterjet wood cutter.   [wink]
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2017, 03:36 AM »


I know, I know, I know!!!  [eek]
See Reply #1

Well I put the little feet on, got out a Sys 1 and you know what? The first cut was 90 degrees vertically and horizontally! Straight out of the box. Dust collection too,  was great [36mm hose]. [smile]

I noted that it has the TS 'growler' noise, which is good to know technically.

Next week will be the real test as I cut and fit Merbu decking.

@Kev @Peter Parfitt @David Stanton. @Phil Beckley
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 06:24 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2439
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2017, 03:42 AM »
Reaction to my first day of real use.

Extending a deck, and today cutting and installing Merbu. The saw is certainly a joy to use; precisely cutting the timber with ease. With 36mm hose and Vac the dust extraction is excellent. Only ctricism so far [except for those feet] is the blade light is useless when working outside. Oh, and the angle finder does not appear to have a home within the saw as is the case with the KS120. Can someone please enlighten me on this if I am wrong here. @David Stanton

Speaking of the angle finder, unlike the 120 whose angle finder relies on the lasers, or so I have read; the KS60 hase.markings for this. Improvement here over the KS120 when working in bright light conditions outside.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 05:37 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 19
Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2017, 05:11 AM »
@Untidy Shop I think you will find a home for the angle finder on the base at the back of the saw. Good to see a positive comments on a kapex  ;)  :)

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2017, 05:30 AM »
Thanks @Harry1561  will investigate that further in the morning [AEST].
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values