Author Topic: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?  (Read 9325 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John Russell

  • Posts: 113
Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« on: February 06, 2007, 11:16 AM »
I have a OF1400. There are times I need two routers. I was thinking of getting a 1010 because it is lighter and seems to work out of the box with the Festool shelf hole jig. However, I can also see an argument for two 1400's since the ergonomics and operation of both routers would be identical and I can use a PC310 for light weight edge work. Do you see an argument for having a 1010 and 1400? Have the OF1400 compatibility issues with the shelf hole jig been resolved?

Thanks
JR

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 11:45 AM »
Do you see an argument for having a 1010 and 1400?

Yes, although your particular situation's more important than any other argument.

I'm in the opposite position--I've got a 1010.  Should I get a second one or a 1400?

I guess one big argument against the 1010 as your second router would be the bits.  If you've got a lot of 1/2" bits, and don't want to buy 8mm (preferred) or 1/4" ones for your new router, get the 1400.  This point probably guarantees that buying a 1010 won't be cheaper, overall, than a second 1400.

The argument for buying a different second router is pretty much the same as for buying a second car.  I know a couple who have his and hers Jeep Grand Cherokees.  I can't for the life of me imagine why you wouldn't choose something different, whether smaller/bigger, faster/more economical, whatever.

Try to arrange to spend some time with a 1010.  It's a delight and I think you'll frequently want to use it.  There's a 30-day money-back guarantee.

The 1010 does a good job on laminate trimming, but if you've already got a laminate trimmer, keep it.  The setup is a bit fiddly--for any laminate trimming--and a dedicated machine's a convenience.

Ned
Who wants, but can't justify, a 1400 yet.

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 3045
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 11:55 AM »


 John,

 Ned spelled it out nicely...as usual. The biggest argument against buying the 1010 was its' lack of accepting 1/2" bits - this was by design though. For some tasks such as using the hole drilling set, edge work, laminate trimming, I'd think you'd find that the 1010 excles at. As for myself, I prefer the lightest tool for the job.

 Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 12:15 PM »
This is a little like cooking with only one size pan. It can be done but who would want to. I really like the lightness of the 1010 but being able to use the power and 1/2 inch capacity of the 1400 is also a big plus, especially since many bits are not offerred in the 8mm shank. This pretty much dictates the popularity of the 1400 all by itself. That said, if I can use either one with an appropriate 1/4 or 8mm bit I will grab the 1010 first. It seems that I almost always use the 1400 with 1/2 shank tools. Having both is a great luxury. Actually, I also have the 2000 which is getting almost no use. I bought it before I found out the 1400 was coming. No regrets. I will find a good use, probably more dedicated, for it as it is really still a nice machine. I have a couple wild ideas floating around in the dark recesses of my brain that might make it to the light of day.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 01:03 PM »
Have the OF1400 compatibility issues with the shelf hole jig been resolved?

Thanks
JR
Jr,

Yes. Link

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
  • Eastern Iowa USA
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 02:01 PM »
 I have both routers. 8) I got the 1400 for med to heavy work with 1/2 shanks , and it has been more than enough power and router for me. I got the 1010 for lightweight to medium duty work. Also for use with my VS600 system. When I think of using the 1400 on the VS600 (if it were possible) my arms ache. And later when I add the hole drilling system and the MFS guide kit, I think the 1010 is a natural fit. The 1010 is a very well balanced and accurate router with a very fine plunge system, and the fine adjustment features are tops. It is my all time favorite router. While it is small and light, it is about twice the size of a PC310.
  It will not take the place of the 310 IMHO. I am glad I have both (1010 & 1400) and not two 1400s , it fills a need in an area that the 1400 woul be overkill and the trim routers cant go. Both routers are what I would call "best in their class"
Patrick

Offline Jim Becker

  • Posts: 169
  • Think twice...write once...
    • Saws 'N Dust
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 02:46 PM »
I have one 'o each, John, and like that for the reason that another poster stated...smaller and lighter when appropriate and heavy duty when needed.
“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

Offline Bob Michaels

  • Posts: 6
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 03:45 PM »
I also have 1 of each for the same reasons as Jim "The Saw" Becker.
Inquiring minds needed to know

Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1126
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 03:56 PM »
I have always heard to stay away from 1/4" shank bits because they have a greater tendency to break and is a big safety factor.  Almost all of my bits I have purchased are for a 1/2" collet.  Are the Festool 1/4" bits stronger than your average bit?  Is this argument without merit?  I'm getting a 1400 this year because of my bit situation but I would be interested to know everyone elses opinion.
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

mft1080, Trion, MFT/3, T15, OF 1400, RO150FEQ, TS55, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails, CSX, Vecturo, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE

Offline Loren Hedahl

  • Posts: 161
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 04:55 PM »
I've never broken a 1/4 inch router bit, even some of questionable heritage that I use a lot.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

Loren
Location (generally):  Thirty five miles west of Seattle by the way the crow flies.

You can tell a Norwegian, but you can't tell him much!

Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 05:07 PM »
Are the Festool 1/4" bits stronger than your average bit?

AFAIK, Festool doesn't make any 1/4" bits.  The 8mm shanks are a hair over 5/16", and much sturdier.

From the Festool Knowledge base:

Quote
What is the advantage of 8mm shank bits as opposed to 1/4" shank bits?
     
   Answer :
The 8mm shank provides 58% more volume than a ¼” shank router bit. The greater diameter reduces vibration and is less prone to deflection or wobble. Festool carries a complete line of router bits in the European 8mm shank size.

The bits are first class, and as usual they're far from cheap.  I don't have any complaints about their value.

Ned

Offline HowardH

  • Posts: 1126
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 09:44 PM »
If you are going to use a Leigh D series jig, don't they require a half inch collet which makes the 1400 necessary anyway? 
Howard H
The Dallas Texas Festool Fanatic!

Mark Twain:  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a letter approving of it." "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything."

mft1080, Trion, MFT/3, T15, OF 1400, RO150FEQ, TS55, RTS400, CT22, CT36E, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails, CSX, Vecturo, Qwas dogs, Parf Dogs, Zobo's, Syslite Uni, CMS GE

Offline John Russell

  • Posts: 113
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 12:59 AM »
I would like to be able to use a router with a D1600 Leigh I have ... The VS600 would be nice, but redundant? Based on the Leigh web information, the 1010 should work as well as the 1400 ..

From Leigh "... the D1600 requires a router with a ½" or 8mm collet to use with the included 8mm shank cutters. A ½" to 8mm collet reducer is included as standard equipment. A plunge router is also recommended for Isoloc templates but is not required for the D1600 and Finger joint template."

The light weight of the 1010 may swing it for me since I can use it with the Leigh I have ... Thanks for all the comments!

Offline bill-e

  • Posts: 504
  • Rindge, New Hampshire, USA
    • New Hampshire Woodworker
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 08:15 AM »
If the D1600 can produce the full range of bits that the D4 can, and unless something has changed, there are some of the larger through dovetail sizes which require a 1/2" shank (#90, 100, 140, 150 and 160).

I have a pair of Milwaukee 2-1/4hp Body Grip routers which are dedicated to my D4.  I find the Body Grip ideal for use on a dovetail jig.

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 03:08 PM »
Hi John,

My take on this question is to have one of each.  I eally like the 1010 size and light weight for many hand held and rail guided tasks.  I mainly use 8mm Festool router bits as they are very sharp, well balanced and I have yet to break one or find it in need of resharpening.  The limitation of the 1010 is depth of plunge.  The 1400 has plenty of depth of plunge capacity and does also take 1/2" bits if you need/want to use them.  I would not want to choose between them if I could only have one (in which case I would reluctantly select the 1400) as I find both in use all the time in my work.  Both have plenty of power and both do a good job at DC.  The 1400 ratcheing collet should be manditory on all routers, as should the snap on guide rings.  Hope this helps.

Jerry
I have a OF1400. There are times I need two routers. I was thinking of getting a 1010 because it is lighter and seems to work out of the box with the Festool shelf hole jig. However, I can also see an argument for two 1400's since the ergonomics and operation of both routers would be identical and I can use a PC310 for light weight edge work. Do you see an argument for having a 1010 and 1400? Have the OF1400 compatibility issues with the shelf hole jig been resolved?

Thanks
JR
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 05:40 PM »
Hi John,

I mainly use 8mm Festool router bits as they are very sharp, well balanced and I have yet to break one or find it in need of resharpening.  The limitation of the 1010 is depth of plunge. 


Jerry,  If you use those bits half as much as I think you do, that appears to be a quite a strong statement about their endurance.  From looking at some of the projects you have posted, I have the sense you work primarily with hardwoods.   Are any of them topical types with known [high silica] bit-dulling properties?  Have you had a chance to compare the durability of the cutting edges of Festool's router bits against other major brands, e.g. Whiteside, Freud, Amana, etc. and Sommerfeld's Own (China), when cutting melamine, particle board, and MDF?  My reason for asking is that I already own a lot of router bits, mostly 1/2 inch shank carbide, and am currently in the market for some additional "workhorse" bits that are expected to get a lot of use in cutting these man-made sheet materials for making shop storage items.  These man-made materials seem to more quickly dull bits than native USA natural hardwoods.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline John Russell

  • Posts: 113
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 06:57 PM »
This is useful comment and I appreciate insights from all of you seasoned wood workers! While there is no clear answer -- other than buy another 1400 and a 1010 -- it seems there is value in the 1010 that complements the 1400 I already have, so now if I could just figure out this MFS thing I will order the 1010 and some bits.

Thanks again,
JR

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 10:59 AM »
H:i Dave,

I do work mainly in hard woods.  The only man made material I employ is Baltic Birch plywood and then rarely so I do not have experience with how well the router bits would hold up to the pressed products.  I do have a drawer full of 1/2" bits from all the high end folks and simply find the Festool bits sharper and better balanced across the board.  Yes, this is a strong endorsement, but it is an endorsement earned in the shop, not because of compensation.

Jerry

Hi John,

I mainly use 8mm Festool router bits as they are very sharp, well balanced and I have yet to break one or find it in need of resharpening.  The limitation of the 1010 is depth of plunge. 


Jerry,  If you use those bits half as much as I think you do, that appears to be a quite a strong statement about their endurance.  From looking at some of the projects you have posted, I have the sense you work primarily with hardwoods.   Are any of them topical types with known [high silica] bit-dulling properties?  Have you had a chance to compare the durability of the cutting edges of Festool's router bits against other major brands, e.g. Whiteside, Freud, Amana, etc. and Sommerfeld's Own (China), when cutting melamine, particle board, and MDF?  My reason for asking is that I already own a lot of router bits, mostly 1/2 inch shank carbide, and am currently in the market for some additional "workhorse" bits that are expected to get a lot of use in cutting these man-made sheet materials for making shop storage items.  These man-made materials seem to more quickly dull bits than native USA natural hardwoods.
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2007, 06:04 PM »
Thanks, Jerry.  Yours is exactly the kind of detailed response I was looking for.   I will plan on buying a Festool bit the next time if they offer the profile I am then looking for.  Before then I have a lot of bits to at least dull, if not wear out.

One other bit-related question:  Have you Jerry (or anyone else) experience with the Festool bits that have replaceable inserts such as Item 491078 on page 44 of the 2006 USA catalogue?  Although initial cost is more, those would seem to be a wise purchase for anyone working regularly with man-made materials and laminates.  It's not clear to me if they are suitable for solid surface materials, but I have never worked with any of them.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2007, 08:51 AM »
I have both the 1400 and 1010.  I think of it much like my 18V Dewalt Hammerdrill vs my C12.  I used to use the Dewalt all the time for every task but once I got the C12 I don't even pick it up anymore unless I really need to use it for the hammer function or If I'm cutting 5"-7" holes or something.  I had the 1400 first and used it exclusively... Now that I have the 1010 it's all I use unless I have to use a bit that I bought with a 1/2" shank.  Depending on what you are doing the 1010 is such a pleasure to use.  Try mortising hinges on a jamb or mortising for strikers and latches with the 1400.  It'll do it just fine but if you ever try it with the 1010 it'll seem like that old heavy Dewalt drill.  The same goes for using the VS600... The 1400 will work but it's a lot more fun using the 1010.

Chris...

Offline Jerry Work

  • Posts: 307
    • The Dovetail Joint
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2007, 10:05 AM »
I do have several of the insert bits as well as the brazed bits.  They work well on most any material, including solid surface materials.  Economics are a function of how often you need to replace the carbide insert.  If you spent day in and day out cutting very abrasive materials they pay for themselves quickly.  If you only use them infrequently then I think the brazed bits would be more cost effective.

Jerry

Thanks, Jerry.  Yours is exactly the kind of detailed response I was looking for.   I will plan on buying a Festool bit the next time if they offer the profile I am then looking for.  Before then I have a lot of bits to at least dull, if not wear out.

One other bit-related question:  Have you Jerry (or anyone else) experience with the Festool bits that have replaceable inserts such as Item 491078 on page 44 of the 2006 USA catalogue?  Although initial cost is more, those would seem to be a wise purchase for anyone working regularly with man-made materials and laminates.  It's not clear to me if they are suitable for solid surface materials, but I have never worked with any of them.
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted by Jerry Work
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR. 
26 mi SW of Grants Pass on US 199, The Redwood Highway
Visitors always welcome!
http://jerrywork.com
glwork@mac.com

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3662
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2007, 09:11 AM »
On 1400 or 1010:
I started out with the OF 1000 (my second Fetool toy purchased)  That was three or four years ago.  Since its intro to my shop, all my other routers (non dedicated) have merely gathered dust.  I decided I wanted a router (Festool) that would accept 1/2" bits so I would not need two sets of bits.  I don't like the idea of 1/4" bits, as i have had too many experiences with them creaping down into projects when using my PC 690.  (BTW: this has NEVER happened while using the 1000) I figured the 1400 would enable me to replace only with 1/2 bits.  Now i have used the 1400 a couple of times, I am back looking at 8mm bits for the OF 1000.  not because I don't like the 1400, but because I have discovered how much I reallly eenjoy woorking with the 1000
About bits: I cannot vouch for sharpness and durability of the Festool bits from the same sort of experience as Jerry Work.  I just do not spend as much time in a year as I am sure he does in a week.  I do try to buy the best bits and now have mostly Festool and Whiteside bits.  I had an experience a couple of years ago where I made a slight mistook on a project.  It appeared on a quick, and evidently not too thoughtful, look at the problem and I decided a minor alteration ov design would save me from tearing apart and re building completely.  I just changed the depth of cut to the corner edging and started routing away.  within seconds, it looked like I was trying to start a fire much as I had done it years ago by rubbing a stone with a stick while camping as a boy scout.  sparks were everywhere.  I had chewed right thru a pockethole screw and expected the corner of the carbide to be, at very least, chipped beyond its ability to cut again, even with a severe grinding.  Once I removed the bit (Festool bit), i checked visually.  Not even a scratch.  I have a reading glass in a drawer that seldom gets used in the shop.  Still could not find the slightest damage.  I have a magnifying glass hat I use for looking at disease symptoms (shrub/tree and grass, I'm a landscaper) when I have to see really close.  There is not even a scratch on that bit.  I then re chucked and ran it into a piece of hard maple to see if there was any damage I could not see.  It not only did not burn, it did not even slow down my OF 1000.  (I do not really hog into any wood with any router, but more nibble away)  That was atleast two years ago and I am still using the same bit.  I don't think I can give any better testimonial than that for any brand of bits.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline John Langevin

  • Posts: 245
  • Springfield, MA
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2007, 01:00 PM »
I received my first Festool router as Christmas present from my wife. I had asked for a 1010 but the lady at Woodcraft (who knows me) recommended the 1400 because she thought it would be more versatile and perhaps save me from buying a second router in the future. When I received it I didn't use it but simply handled it for a 1 week period agonizing over the choice, then I calculated the extra money I would spend to get it on the rail and be able to use PC bushings or a edge guide. In the end I went with the 1010 based on its light weight, delightful handling characteristics, and included accessories. I resolved to give it a thorough workout over the next few weeks and was well satisfied. Then I was commissioned (asked) by my wife to restore a 100 year old walnut mantel for the local preservation trust. I bought a Whiteside top-bearing bit ,made a simple template and went to cut the mantel., It went fine until the final pass when the bit suddenly took a gouge out of the shelf. I checked the bit and saw that the set screw had come out of the bearing which then slid up the bit shaft. Moral of the story:
1. Always check the bearing set screw for tightness
2. Even a fine company like Whiteside is not perfect
Practicing Mediocrity Never Begets Perfection

Offline richard.selwyn

  • Posts: 631
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2007, 10:25 AM »
I know this is a bit off topic, but I think I saw that the big Festool Router, the 2000, is now only available without a Systainer (maybe in the US or elsewhere)  I am thinking of getting one and wondered if this might mean it was about to be replaced or phased out.  Anyone in the know?

Offline John Russell

  • Posts: 113
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2007, 10:48 AM »
I bought the 1010 rather than a second 1400. It does have very nice handling --- no regrets.

Offline Ned

  • Posts: 1147
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2007, 11:02 AM »
...I saw that the big Festool Router, the 2000, is now only available without a Systainer (maybe in the US or elsewhere)

I saw this and and took it that the OF 2000's buyers were more likely to use it in a production shop situation where a nice storage container was unneeded. 

I think Festool offers several tools in Germany with or without Systainers.  The TS 55 for instance is offered with or without a Systainer, with or without a guide rail, and with or without electronic speed control and braking. 

Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 482
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2007, 03:18 PM »
I saw a used 1010 for sale on Woodnet the other day and decided to pounce on it. It arrived today. Seems like a nice little router. Very light and easy to manage. The fact that it doesn't take 1/2" bits still bothers me though. I've got an enormous collection of 1/2" shank bits, and very few 1/4" ones. I'll probably go out and get some 1/4" bits to use specifically with the new (to me) router though.

Offline Dave Rudy

  • Posts: 771
  • Coloroda Front Range, in the lee of Pikes Peak
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2007, 03:40 PM »
Good decision Lou.   I came along right behind you and saw that it got snapped up.  I suggest that you pick up a couple of 8mm bits though before stocking up on 1/4s.  They seem to be a worthy substitute for 1/2" in lots of applications -- and you can use them with the 1400 as you know.  I'll look forward to reading your report as you get the tool into use.

Dave

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
  • Eastern Iowa USA
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2007, 08:59 PM »
I'm with dave - before you load up on 1/4" bits try some 8mms. They are rock solid and feel much safer to use than 1/4" bits. And festool bits are very good. Enjoy the 1010 !
  After using the 8mm bits for a while  , the 1/2" shank looks like a telephone pole.
Patrick

Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 482
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: Two 1400'S or a 1400 and 1010?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2007, 10:40 PM »
I'd go with 8mm bits if Whiteside made them for my uses. They only make 1/4" and 1/2" bits in the styles I use though. As much as I like Festool stuff, I'm not buying their bits. I can get 3 Whiteside bits for the price of one Festool bit (at Holbren.com). I'm sure Festool bits are excellent, but there's no way they are three times better than Whiteside. Whiteside is top notch quality, so its not like I'm comparing Festool bits to something like the bits from MLCS (junk).