Author Topic: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS  (Read 11858 times)

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Offline mculik5

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Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« on: May 04, 2016, 04:02 PM »
I'm considering purchasing a VAC-SYS. Unfortunately, I can't justify spending $1300 on the set with the vacuum pump, as I'm just a hobbyist. So, I'm thinking about buying the clamp itself and providing my own vacuum pump.

I called Festool directly, and they told me a number of guys are doing this. Basically, they are cutting the end off the clamp hose, replacing the European quick-connector with a North American one, and connecting to a non-Festool vacuum pump.

Has anyone on this forum done this? Any vacuum pump recommendations? There are many pumps available on Amazon, but I've heard complaints that the oil-filled pumps put an oil mist in the air, and the dry pumps aren't rated for continuous use.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rst

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 06:03 PM »
I've done this, I use a 20 year old (for me) used refrigeration vac pump that I bought for $15.00, probably that low as it is 220V.  I replaced the inlet fitting with a barbed Milton.  Warning the barb is larger than the 9mm hose so it took some effort to insert.  I finally clamped the hose to my bench and thumped it in with a rubber hammer.  I also installed push/pull pneumatic fittings to to the vac units to make assembling and storing the units and hoses easier. 

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 07:12 PM »
On Amazon you can buy a Refrigerator vacuum pump for as little as $40, BUT it is only .05 mbars at 4 CFM. The Festool pump is 150 mbars at 3CFM. That kind of pump on Amazon starts at around $500. Still a $300 dollar savings.
Greg Powers
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Offline Nat X

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2016, 07:22 PM »
McMaster Carr has some with similar specs, but they're only a little bit cheaper. I'm not a big fan of the goofy housing they came up with for North America, but it's a very rugged little sucker that runs nearly as quiet as an airbrush compressor. Assuming that "hobbyist" also means "working in a limited space which other people also occupy," and "don't want to spend weeks chasing down specialized fittings you don't already have drawers full of" I for one think it's a justifiable expenditure. It's (counterintuitively) the folks with big shops full of stationary equipment who I think stand to gain the least from the Festool branded one.

Offline Steve-Rice

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 09:45 PM »
Try veneersupplies.com, they have a great pump for $329.50. He has good prices on vacuum bags as well.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Pump---55-CFM-120v-AC-240v-AC.html
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 09:51 PM by Steve-Rice »

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 11:26 PM »
Milwaukee vacuum pump from a cement core drill.

242998-0

I kept the Festo connectors because they're that good.

243000-1

Festool Vac SYS clamping module.

243002-2

Offline Claimdude

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 11:43 PM »
I attended the Festool Roadshow in San Antonio yesterday morning and talked to the rep about the Vac-Sys, also got to mess with it. Hard to believe the hold that thing has. Anyway he said the housing for the US was designed because they couldn't get UL approval for the style they sell over seas and that the metal tub frame actually stores the vacuum pressure, if I am describing that correctly. All my Festool stuff stays in the shop and most without the systainers so the roll cage style is good for me. I will be ordering mine tomorrow.

Jack

Offline mculik5

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 10:28 AM »
Thanks for the replies. They raise a few more questions, though.

The Festool rep I talked to mentioned the 150mbar. I don't understand this spec. I don't know much about vacuum pumps, but my understanding is:

- The more CFM it pumps, the quicker it will pull a vacuum, and the more frequently I can clamp/un-clamp stuff without losing vacuum and having to wait.
- The higher the max vacuum, the stronger the clamp.

150mbar is 2.2PSI. Assuming this is a reverse measure of max vacuum, with 14.7PSI being standard sea level air pressure, your clamping pressure would be 14.7 - 2.2 = 12.5PSI. What I don't understand, though, is the comment about the cheap Amazon pumps pulling .05mbar. If my logic above is correct, .05mbar is a better vacuum and MORE clamping pressure than 150mbar. But that doesn't make sense based on the prices...

Other questions:

- Does anyone know what fittings Festool use on this? Even if not the manufacturer, maybe the standard?

- Would one these guys work? - http://www.amazon.com/FJC-6912-Vacuum-Pump-5-0/dp/B000XQ2S4M/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1462458272&sr=8-8&keywords=vacuum+pump What is the difference between a pump like this and the $329 one on the veneering website? Quality, for sure, but from a performance/functionality perspective, anything?

Part of my reasoning for not wanting the Festool one, besides the price, is I want to use it for other applications, too, and am concerned about not being able to get quick connect fittings for my other projects to match Festool.

Thanks!

Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 11:01 AM »
Thanks for the replies. They raise a few more questions, though.

The Festool rep I talked to mentioned the 150mbar. I don't understand this spec. I don't know much about vacuum pumps, but my understanding is:

- The more CFM it pumps, the quicker it will pull a vacuum, and the more frequently I can clamp/un-clamp stuff without losing vacuum and having to wait.
- The higher the max vacuum, the stronger the clamp.

150mbar is 2.2PSI. Assuming this is a reverse measure of max vacuum, with 14.7PSI being standard sea level air pressure, your clamping pressure would be 14.7 - 2.2 = 12.5PSI. What I don't understand, though, is the comment about the cheap Amazon pumps pulling .05mbar. If my logic above is correct, .05mbar is a better vacuum and MORE clamping pressure than 150mbar. But that doesn't make sense based on the prices...

Other questions:

- Does anyone know what fittings Festool use on this? Even if not the manufacturer, maybe the standard?

- Would one these guys work? - http://www.amazon.com/FJC-6912-Vacuum-Pump-5-0/dp/B000XQ2S4M/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1462458272&sr=8-8&keywords=vacuum+pump What is the difference between a pump like this and the $329 one on the veneering website? Quality, for sure, but from a performance/functionality perspective, anything?

Part of my reasoning for not wanting the Festool one, besides the price, is I want to use it for other applications, too, and am concerned about not being able to get quick connect fittings for my other projects to match Festool.

Thanks!

Your logic is correct, .05 mBar (also known a 5 Pascals) is a deeper vacuum than 150 mBar.  The thing to watch out for is the CFM ratings and what pressure / vacuum it applies to.  There are many types of vacuum pumps and depending on the type of pump; 1 stage, 2 stage, 3 stage, rotary, piston etc. they can have great sounding CFMs at standard atmospheric pressure (nameplate ratings) but the CFM rate curves deteriorate rapidly as the vacuum builds. This means a single stage rotary vac pump like the $40 ones can in theory eventually get to very deep vacuum but it can take far longer than would be acceptable for clamping etc.

Similar is true on compressors, CFM rates drop as psi increases - look at your compressor ratings - they will be higher CFM at 40 psi than at 90 psi

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 11:10 AM »
I'm also interested in understanding the pluses and/or minuses of using a Non-Festool pump?  Especially for small shops where the pump will be mounted to a work bench.  Replacing a $800+ pump with a $350 pump looks attractive especially if its a limited life item. It appears the heads are the real engineering IP ...   


http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Pump---55-CFM-120v-AC-240v-AC.html   

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Foot-Valve-for-Vacuum-Clamping-14-NPT-3-Way-2-Position.html

Offline Festoolian

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 12:53 PM »
The math works more like this:  150mbar =2.2psi.  If the diameter of the seal at the edge of the vacuum is 6 inches, then the total holding force developed is ( area (pi X 3 X 3)sq in) X ( pressure drop 2.2psi)= 62.3 lbs. force.  The 0.05mbar pump could only produce 0.0218 lbs. force to hold an object over the same area. 


Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 01:35 PM »
The math works more like this:  150mbar =2.2psi.  If the diameter of the seal at the edge of the vacuum is 6 inches, then the total holding force developed is ( area (pi X 3 X 3)sq in) X ( pressure drop 2.2psi)= 62.3 lbs. force.  The 0.05mbar pump could only produce 0.0218 lbs. force to hold an object over the same area.

The 150mBar or the .05 mBar (5 Pa) is the pressure achieved by the vacuum pump, not the pressure drop as you have it in your calculation. The calculations by @mculik5 are the correct way, in theory the $40 pump is rated at a "stronger" vacuum than Festool rates their pump for, however that doesn't make it "better" for workholding. If you were evacuating all remnants of refrigerant from a system and had lots of time then the $40 pump achieving .05 mBar would be the way to go. if you are clamping stuff you don't need to achieve as deep a vacuum but you need to do it quickly, also since you are probably applying a finish to the parts you are working on and in the area you don't want oil mist in the air. The Festool pump is a dry pump and will achieve it's vacuum much faster than the single stage vane pump will, these are the differences that matter and cost more.  Having said that there are other more cost effective piston vac pumps available, the one from veneersupplies for $329.50 being a good example.

Offline mculik5

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 02:16 PM »
Thanks!

So, I think this is where we're at:

1. Purely from the perspective of clamping power, almost any vacuum pump will work - from an old refrigerator compressor, to a cheap Amazon pump, to Festool's own pump. However...

2. Cheaper pumps will likely be noisier, take longer to develop a sufficient vacuum, and might fail sooner (not rated for continuous duty, lower quality, etc.).

3. Oil-filled pumps exhaust oil mist into the air.

New questions:

- If a vacuum pump (of any quality/price) is used without a tank, that means when you put a piece of wood on the clamp, you will have to wait however long it takes for the vacuum pump to evacuate the air in the clamp, right? And the pumps with tanks work like a reverse air compressor, where the tank is at negative pressure, and the air moves to the tank when the valve is opened, creating the vacuum at the clamp?

- Same question as before - anyone know what quick-connect fittings Festool are using?

Offline rst

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 05:56 PM »
There is way too much thinking going on regarding vacuum.  When I first started making vac jigs 30+ years ago, I used my Sears vacuum cleaner.  Went from that to using the intake on my 1 1/2 hp air compressor.  Eventually I bought a used, surplus store, refrigeration pump $15.00.  This is a very good pump...the price reflected that it was 220V so not easily used by most customers.  I use mine in my shop only so that did not bother me and I have used it for 20+ years.  From the very beginning I was using the jigs to manufacture plastic re placement parts for a customer that uses old refrigeration units that are either not longer made or the lead times and prices for replacement parts were outside the customers desires.  I bought the I and II versions for the simple reason that the various heads and ease to changing them makes them perfect for my needs.

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 10:01 PM »
Quote from: mculik5 link=topic=46451.msg457309. #msg457309 date=1462472194
Same question as before - anyone know what quick-connect fittings Festool are using?

Ya I think it's a variation of the Festo KD-4 series, even though the components I ordered, have VAL engraved on them.

They're expensive, but are more than up to the vacuum task. There is a difference between QD's that are tasked for vacuum as opposed to pressure.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 08:21 AM by Cheese »

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 10:21 PM »
I've got the beginnings of a headcold and may regret posting this, but what the heck, you only live twice.  [scared]

At Festool's request, I already sourced a brand new (unreleased) replacement U.S. vacuum pump for VacSys two years ago before Germany killed it and decided to provide the current system. During the process, I even made inquiries with my local distributor about being the main source for these pumps. They agreed to specifically create inventory just for me, and make design changes just for VacSys. The only thing I didn't finish pursuing was the few odds-and-ends necessary for the plumbing, plus the complexity of shipping.

So I'm wondering how many people might be interested if I could supply a vacuum pump somewhere in the $300 to $400 range? It's been well over a year since I looked into this, so I have forgotten all of the numbers and details. What little I do remember is that this pump had higher specs than the original VacSys pump, and higher than the current one.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 10:39 PM »
Thanks!

So, I think this is where we're at:

1. Purely from the perspective of clamping power, almost any vacuum pump will work - from an old refrigerator compressor, to a cheap Amazon pump, to Festool's own pump. However...
This isn't quite correct. The pump must be able to create a significant vacuum pressure. Not all pump designs are capable of doing that. Some pumps are capable of producing very high negative pressure, but no volume. Others are capable of evacuating large volumes, but very little negative pressure. You need one that is capable of a large negative pressure, but only a reasonably large volume to overcome any air leaks.

2. Cheaper pumps will likely be noisier, take longer to develop a sufficient vacuum, and might fail sooner (not rated for continuous duty, lower quality, etc.).
There are many different styles of pumps. The cost is driven more by style than longevity.

3. Oil-filled pumps exhaust oil mist into the air.
Correct. Oil-immersed rotary vane pumps produce very high vacuum pressures, but the trade off is the potential mist. They are inexpensive only because they are so common--nearly every HVAC tech in the country needs one.

New questions:

- If a vacuum pump (of any quality/price) is used without a tank, that means when you put a piece of wood on the clamp, you will have to wait however long it takes for the vacuum pump to evacuate the air in the clamp, right? And the pumps with tanks work like a reverse air compressor, where the tank is at negative pressure, and the air moves to the tank when the valve is opened, creating the vacuum at the clamp?
Not completely correct. The Vacsys head contains a placement valve that prevents vacuum leakage during the time when a workpiece is not in position. So the vacuum hoses remain charged even when no workpiece is present.

- Same question as before - anyone know what quick-connect fittings Festool are using?

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 11:26 PM »
I've got the beginnings of a headcold and may regret posting this, but what the heck, you only live twice.  [scared]

At Festool's request, I already sourced a brand new (unreleased) replacement U.S. vacuum pump for VacSys two years ago before Germany killed it and decided to provide the current system. During the process, I even made inquiries with my local distributor about being the main source for these pumps. They agreed to specifically create inventory just for me, and make design changes just for VacSys. The only thing I didn't finish pursuing was the few odds-and-ends necessary for the plumbing, plus the complexity of shipping.

So I'm wondering how many people might be interested if I could supply a vacuum pump somewhere in the $300 to $400 range? It's been well over a year since I looked into this, so I have forgotten all of the numbers and details. What little I do remember is that this pump had higher specs than the original VacSys pump, and higher than the current one.

@Rick Christopherson  count me in.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 11:39 PM by GPowers »
Greg Powers
Size:XL

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 11:29 PM »
@Rick Christopherson  Count me in too.   

Offline YOGO100

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2016, 12:03 AM »
I would be interested in something like that too.

Offline Brandon

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2016, 06:38 AM »
@Rick Christopherson I'd be interested as well

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2016, 08:35 AM »
Rick,
Even though I'm running a Milwaukee vacuum pump right now and am happy with the performance, I may also be interested in your replacement pump depending upon the size of the footprint of the package.

Offline Hawk Nest

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2016, 08:44 AM »
Count me in also.....Hawk

Offline jdm5

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2016, 08:45 AM »
@Rick Christopherson I'm in....take my money!
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2016, 04:18 PM »
Someone sent me a PM asking about the following pump, and whether my option might be better. My answer was no. Back when I first started looking into this, I could not find any retail pumps below $700, but this pump is similar to the one I had been examining, and it has a decent price tag.

This one is rated for 12.5 psi vacuum, and mine may have been slightly higher, but that is reasonable. Mine was also a rocking piston pump, which is good for rapid flow, high vacuum, and continuous duty.

So given that someone else already has a reasonable pump in the same price range, it wouldn't be worth it for me to pursue this any further.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Vacuum-Pump---55-CFM-120v-AC-240v-AC.html

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2016, 01:54 PM »
@mculik5
Same question as before - anyone know what quick-connect fittings Festool are using?

I believe it's a variation of the Festo KD-4 series, even though the components I ordered, have VAL engraved on them.

The Festool hose coupling, 494574, is $51 and the Festool plug nipple, 474202 is $17 while the Oetiker hose clamp, 479816, that Festool specifies is $1.50.

The plug nipple, 474202, has one end threaded to fit a G1/4" connection. The G1/4" is also known as a BSPP, British Standard Pipe Parallel thread and uses a flat gasket for a seal.

However, if you're connecting up to a standard NPT connection, Parker makes nipples that will couple the Festool hose coupling to a standard sized NPT. Use the 254 series.

http://www.parker.com/Literature/Quick%20Coupling/catalog_sections/RF%20Series-Catalog%203800_SectionA.pdf

Also note that the Oetiker hose clamps that are original to the VAC SYS, are ear clamps, while the replacement Oetiker hose clamps are gear drive so they are a lot easier to install properly.

Offline kelauben

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2016, 04:08 PM »
@Rick Christopherson  Count me in too.

Offline kelauben

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2016, 04:23 PM »

@Rick Christopherson  Count me in too.

Whoops. Just read the rest of the thread. Thanks Rick.

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2016, 08:21 PM »
@Cheese

I noticed your post about Parker 254 series fittings.. Do ALL of the 254 series work with Festool Vac Sys connectors?  What your thoughts on using a Parker 3/8 "Nipple- Push-Lok Hose Barb" to create an adapter connection.  Basically the below

Festool Vac Sys Connector <--> Parker RF-254-6PL <--->  3/8 Hose <--> 3/8 barb to 1/4 Quick Disconnect     


http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Quick-Connect-Assembly.html
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 08:24 PM by ByoBuzz »

Offline mculik5

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2016, 10:09 PM »
@Cheese

Great info on the connectors. Thank you!

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2016, 09:01 AM »
@ByoBuzz
I think the combination that you've outlined should work fine, however the litmus test is to purchase, assemble and then test. If you use Parker hose, the RF-254-6PL can be used without a hose clamp. If you're not using Parker hose, I'd probably try the RF-254-6HB and use a small worm gear hose clamp. Ideal is another manufacturer of good stainless hose clamps.

http://idealtridon.com/aftermarket/

Parker says that the 254 series is supposed to be interchangeable with the European high flow QD standard.

I assume you're trying to use the Festool hose with a different vacuum pump. Make sure the QD you're using is rated for vacuum service. Most QD's are not.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rst

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2016, 12:14 PM »
I've never been a "supposed to use" kinda guy.  I've been using standard Milton 1/4" compressed air dis-connects and Goodyear rubber hose for 20+ years on my pattern vac jigs and am using them with my Vac Sys' and never had an issue and I've made thousands of pieces this way.  I'm not so sure that the new flexible polyurethane hoses would hold there shape however.

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2016, 01:10 PM »
rst,
I agree with you...I'm a fan of Milton "P" style QD's and yellow Goodyear hose. That's been my combo for over 30 years. Changed to the "P" style so I could also shoot HVLP and make my life easier.

I was really surprised when Parker didn't rate their QD for vacuum service. Even their polyester coupler, which would be their answer to Festo/Festool, is not rated for vacuum service. Both couplers are supposed to be European interchangeable yet they aren't rated for the same service.

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 10:31 PM »
The Vac Sys Clamping Module connects to the Excel 5 pump with no problems... All seems to work as expected although more testing is needed.  - Chris

 

 

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2016, 11:46 PM »
My excel 5 shows up this Friday  [big grin]
Greg Powers
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Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2016, 01:09 AM »
Let the games begin...

Offline ScotF

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2016, 01:21 AM »
The Vac Sys Clamping Module connects to the Excel 5 pump with no problems... All seems to work as expected although more testing is needed.  - Chris

 

 

Sweet. Can you go over any connections you needed to buy to connect the hoses from the clamp to the pump? How is the holding power with this pump?

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2016, 09:42 AM »
@Cheese - I took cheese advice and order Parker European fittings which seems to work fine.  You really only need one.

Parker RF-254-4MP

Excel 5 Pump

An upgraded extended manifold can be bought for an extra $45 which is not needed although it does provide many more connection options.  I bought it and highly recommend it.

Note that the pump does NOT have an on/off switch.  It runs when plugged in.  It stops when unplugged.   

The holding power using the Festool clamping module is amazing.  Seems to be working as expected.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 09:46 AM by ByoBuzz »

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2016, 12:16 PM »
too late for me but free shipping this Monday at Veneer Supplies ...


Offline jdm5

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2016, 04:31 PM »
Bumping for the free shipping today - I just ordered my pump.

@ByoBuzz  - which manifold did you get?  I see a $25 one on the veneer site, but not a $45 one.  What benefits does it provide?
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2016, 06:05 PM »
@jdm5   For an extra $45, you can add additional connections for a vacuum bag, podz, etc.  I'm impress with this pump and how quiet it is. plus how powerful it is..  Everything seems to be working well.  Remember that the Festool clamping module uses European connections ...   


I've also added an on/off switch --> http://www.amazon.com/Master-Electrician-6-Feet-Extension-Outlets/dp/B000W65LO2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:09 PM by ByoBuzz »

Offline YOGO100

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2016, 12:48 PM »
Hi Chris,

Do you happen to know what the specs are for the vacuum valve that comes with the additional connections. I ended up not getting the extended kit with the excel, but want to add the Vac Sys to it. I'm assuming that if I get one of the vacuum valves, I can then attach the Parker RF-254-4MP. Given that I'm on the west coast, I'd like to find a local supplier for the vacuum valve rather than have one valve sent from the east coast.

Thanks,

Yoav

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2016, 04:30 PM »
Unfortunately I don't know the specification for the valves .. Plus I could not find any part numbers on them ... Sorry..     

Offline YOGO100

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2016, 10:06 PM »
Thanks for checking. I bought some simple 1/4" NPT valves and they work great.

Offline Kriss

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2016, 08:27 AM »
Could someone with the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo comment on how the system handles itself in the event of power loss? I’m inclined to think that unlike Festool’s pump, this setup drops suction quicker since the Excel pump doesn’t have the so called “metal tub frame” to store the pressure.

Has anyone tried unpluging their Excel 5 pump with a workpiece clamped in? Does it hold for a few extra seconds?

This is the only concern stopping me from jumping onboard with an Excel 5 order.

Online Cheese

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2016, 09:24 AM »
Could someone with the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo comment on how the system handles itself in the event of power loss? I’m inclined to think that unlike Festool’s pump, this setup drops suction quicker since the Excel pump doesn’t have the so called “metal tub frame” to store the pressure.

Just use the internal vacuum cavity that's on the underside of the SE 1 or SE 2 clamping module. You'll just need to mount it on a piece of metal, plastic, formica or phenolic to maintain the vacuum level.

See this post for details.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/vac-sys-vacuum-decay-times/msg458918/#msg458918

Offline YOGO100

  • Posts: 17
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2016, 02:22 AM »
Hey Kriss,

I haven't measured the exact time, but having used this set up for a couple of weeks I can say that the vacuum certainly holds long enough to respond to any issue that may arise if the pump stops working. In other words, if you are working on something and the power goes out, you will have plenty of time to put away any tools before the piece is released. Hope this helps.

Yoav

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2016, 08:53 AM »
I have this setup too and totally agree Yoav answer...

Offline Kriss

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2016, 10:24 AM »
Thanks for the help, everyone. You've given me confidence in the pairing. I've sent Joe my order!

Offline epicxt

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2016, 11:27 AM »

Thanks for the help, everyone. You've given me confidence in the pairing. I've sent Joe my order!
Excellent! We'll be looking forward to an entertaining, informative video review in the next several weeks! ;)
n = number of Festools I've got.  (n + 1) = Festools I want

Offline RobBob

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2016, 07:15 PM »
Thanks for the help, everyone. You've given me confidence in the pairing. I've sent Joe my order!

Hi @Kriss,
Yes, please do a video on the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo.  I am interested in going this route too, if the money saved is significant and the tool still works properly.

Please mention what fittings you used to integrate the Excel pump with the VAC-SYS fittings.  I am unclear on what additional items I would need to buy.

Thanks! 

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2016, 07:31 PM »

Hi @Kriss,
Yes, please do a video on the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo.  I am interested in going this route too, if the money saved is significant and the tool still works properly.

Please mention what fittings you used to integrate the Excel pump with the VAC-SYS fittings.  I am unclear on what additional items I would need to buy.

Thanks!

@RobBob I saved $400
Greg Powers
Size:XL

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1185
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2016, 07:36 PM »
Thanks.  That is worthwhile.  I could buy another tool for that.   [big grin]


Hi @Kriss,
Yes, please do a video on the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo.  I am interested in going this route too, if the money saved is significant and the tool still works properly.

Please mention what fittings you used to integrate the Excel pump with the VAC-SYS fittings.  I am unclear on what additional items I would need to buy.

Thanks!

@RobBob I saved $400

Offline Kriss

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2016, 10:34 PM »
Hi @Kriss,
Yes, please do a video on the Excel 5 + VAC-SYS-head combo.  I am interested in going this route too, if the money saved is significant and the tool still works properly.

Please mention what fittings you used to integrate the Excel pump with the VAC-SYS fittings.  I am unclear on what additional items I would need to buy.

Thanks!

I should clarify that I actually ordered the Excel 1 pump. The lower noise level of that unit was particularly appealing. I'm fairly confident it's still got enough CFM to pull in a good vacuum and work just as well with the VAC-SYS. I'll be sure to report my findings :)

Offline jdm5

  • Posts: 91
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2016, 08:19 PM »
Reviving this thread - finally hooked up the Excel 5 pump with the VAC-SYS - it works great!  You need one Parker RF-254-4MP (I got mine from Zoro, pick your favorite vendor).

I had purchased the complete kit (pump + two head units), and now can separate the two head units and they work perfectly independently.  The only other purchase required for that use case (having the SE2 head unit) is the foot pedal - Festool 580063 but it's $100.  If you buy the SE1 kit you won't have this problem as it includes the foot pedal (I should have just bought two SE1's in hindsite).

Anyone have any ideas on an alternative foot pedal / pressure release?  Could use a ball valve but I like the foot pedal release idea.
Drank the green Kool-Aid...gave up counting long ago.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 577
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2017, 05:16 PM »
Bumping this up as I'm looking to pair either an Excel 1 or 5 with the clamping module.  @Kriss - any update on how the smaller and quieter Excel 1 worked out?
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2017, 06:58 PM »
I have both, I even have the original excel 5.

The excel 1is s not  be good near as good as the Excel 5 for clamping anything or vac bagging larger items sat larger than 4 foot by 4 foot.

The excel 5 newest model is so small and quiet I could not believe the difference in sound verse the older Excel 5 and any of of my other numerous pumps. 

Just get that Excel 5 you wont be sorry. I find these are great for vac pressing using a bag and love mine, as far as clamping work down to router material etc for me the vac sys and the like are  great in theory, but turned out to be nothing more than a fun toy and more trouble than it was worth.

I have boxes of almost every type vac hold down you can think of from many major brand as well as DIY, all the stuff sits on shelves now.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:09 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 577
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2017, 07:05 PM »
I have both, I even have the original excel 5.

The excel 1is s not  be good near as good as the Excel 5 for clamping anything or vac bagging larger items sat larger than 4 foot by 4 foot.

The excel 5 newest model is so small and quiet I could not believe the difference in sound verse the older Excel 5 and any of of my other numerous pumps. 

Just get that Excel 5 you wont be sorry.

Thanks...
Does the Excel 5 run continuously while vac clamping or does it cycle on and off as needed?  I know it's a "continuous running" pump but wasn't sure if that means it CAN or it DOES.  I believe the Festool pump comes on as necessary?
I ask only because even as it's pretty quiet, I'd like to know if I'm going to be listening to that 63db constantly while clamping or only intermittently.
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2017, 07:13 PM »
I have both, I even have the original excel 5.

The excel 1is s not  be good near as good as the Excel 5 for clamping anything or vac bagging larger items sat larger than 4 foot by 4 foot.

The excel 5 newest model is so small and quiet I could not believe the difference in sound verse the older Excel 5 and any of of my other numerous pumps. 

Just get that Excel 5 you wont be sorry.

Thanks...
Does the Excel 5 run continuously while vac clamping or does it cycle on and off as needed?  I know it's a "continuous running" pump but wasn't sure if that means it CAN or it DOES.  I believe the Festool pump comes on as necessary?
I ask only because even as it's pretty quiet, I'd like to know if I'm going to be listening to that 63db constantly while clamping or only intermittently.

NO its not cycling, this is just a pump, you would have to make it a cycling system and really if you want that why get this pump?. I actually prefer non cycling. It's simpler, there is nothing other than the pump to worry about and it will last pretty much forever for a hobbyist, mine has proven this using it for work 24/7. It's plug and play, if I was to get a pin hole in the bag it's not a huge deal because it draws faster than the bag can leak and again it's so very quiet it being on doesn't bother me at all.

I never used a pump this powerful, this small in size, that was quiet enough to  not require hearing protection. I can watch tv or talk to someone or just do paperwork in the shop without having hearing protection on just because the pump is running. It really is amazing how quiet it is. I thought it was a joke when I opened up the box and turned it on for the first time. The Excel 5 looked like a toy, but it's proven it's definitely not.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:37 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Kriss

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2017, 01:08 PM »
Bumping this up as I'm looking to pair either an Excel 1 or 5 with the clamping module.  @Kriss - any update on how the smaller and quieter Excel 1 worked out?

My thoughts: the excel 1 was louder than I expected (louder than the Festool pump), but I have no complaints regarding its suction capacity. My setup has the pump inside a closet and I run a hose out to the VAC-SYS - so the noise becomes a non-issue.

I haven't seen an excel 5 to compare. I'm happy with my excel 1 so ultimately I'm pretty sure you can't go wrong with either pump!

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 577
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2017, 05:44 PM »
Bumping this up as I'm looking to pair either an Excel 1 or 5 with the clamping module.  @Kriss - any update on how the smaller and quieter Excel 1 worked out?

My thoughts: the excel 1 was louder than I expected (louder than the Festool pump), but I have no complaints regarding its suction capacity. My setup has the pump inside a closet and I run a hose out to the VAC-SYS - so the noise becomes a non-issue.

I haven't seen an excel 5 to compare. I'm happy with my excel 1 so ultimately I'm pretty sure you can't go wrong with either pump!

Thanks @Kriss!  Just out of curiosity, did you ever take a smartphone SPL meter (or real one) to it to see how it measured up to its advertised 45db?  I wonder if it's the pitch or if it specs higher. 

Haven't seen many vids from you lately.  Life getting in the way?   [tongue]
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

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Offline RobBob

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2017, 05:48 PM »
How would the Festool pump work with vacuum bags?  Is it practical to get away with one pump for both Vac Sys and vacuum bag use?

Which of the three pumps would be best for both uses?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:17 PM by RobBob »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2017, 06:12 PM »
How would the Festool work with vacuum bags?  Is it practical to get away with one pump for both Vac Sys and vacuum bag use?

Which of the three pumps would be best for both uses?

The Festool pump is a continuous duty pump. Works just fine for vacuum bags.

Yes.

Tom

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 577
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2017, 08:19 PM »
How would the Festool pump work with vacuum bags?  Is it practical to get away with one pump for both Vac Sys and vacuum bag use?

Which of the three pumps would be best for both uses?

The Festool is (I believe) a 2 cfm pump, which would be totally fine for moderate sized vac bagging.  If you wanted to do larger vac bagging, I think the Excel 5 would be better.  If you look at veneersupplies.com, they have a chart comparing their systems, including the two continuous duty ones (Excel 1 and 5).  The Excel 1 is a 1cfm and supposedly can handle 4x4 bags (for flat work) and 2x4 curved.  The Excel 5 with 5cfm can do 4x15 or 6x10 flat and 4x6 curved.  So I would guess the Festool pump would spec somewhere in middle...
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline nachtschim

  • Posts: 1
Re: Vacuum Pump for VAC-SYS
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2017, 12:03 PM »
Oke, just tuned-in on this topic....

I work for a comany named Becker. we are the inventor of the rotory vane vacuum pump.
I'm the head of service and technical matter within Belgium Netherlands and Luxembourg....
But enough about me!

the deeper the vacuum level, mbar, the stronger the grip. This is correct. But.....
all leakage will drain your vacuum so piping and hose connection are important.

I noticed the remark, that oil lubricated pumps blow out oil... than you are dowing it wrong!!! oil circulation speeds up when vacuum levels is boulding up. oil lubricated pumps need to work on max. vacuum level. when the max vacuum level is NOT reached oil circulation and pump effort increase. the internal oilcircualtion system is not build for draining maxx oilflow and starts blowing exessive oil.  because of the oil, all components get a almost zero clearance so almost absolute vacuum can be reached.-0mbar ab. or 1000mbar rel.  perfect for what you want.

the use of a softstarter or frequencyconverter protects your pump against the kick-in of electicity. this will damage your pump within a year.

oil free pumps, not so deep vacuum level but for your use oke. so much to choose from.
the deeper the vacuum level, the less flow. sow check for this!

for both pumps, make sure a vacuum savety valve is installed in, or externall with your pump.
when the max. vacuum is reached, flow almost stops. this means no more cooling of your pump internal.
vacuum pumps create hot exhaustair, dust in woodindustry, hot running pumps and poor maintenace, do i need to mention..... so a hot running pump because pulluted filtration lack of flow sawdust and so on, check it.

Filtration, put a pre filter between the vacuum connection and this will als save your pump.

maintenacen is crucial, replace your filters on time, keep bearings lubricated and check pump internaly. prefenting damage.....
Any further question, let me know.

money..... what ever you want just be save. invest in what you can affort. Goog luck!!!