Author Topic: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty  (Read 14063 times)

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 594
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2017, 05:41 PM »
Saw that review (btw Bosch glide & Kapex) for the first time. Like most tool reviews, it tells little because the review was based on an half-an-hour use (or even less). You don't need to turn on the saw to know:

a) Kapex has the best dust extraction and b) its hold-down clamp is the best (and I still scratch my head why there are no copycats when they release new mitre saws).

I sold my Dewalt mitre saw (over 10 years old) after I bought the Kapex and so I expect the Kapex to run 10 years at least. If not, I have made a bad choice (and that wouldn't be my first one, after woodworking for close to 20 years now), and so be it. Of course, if that happened, I would not buy a Kapex as a replacement (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...).

With two years of Kapex in regular use (as a hobbyist, not as a production woodworker, mind you; I use my tablesaw 10 times more), I am sure it is meeting my needs in terns of accuracy and dust collection. I would not buy any other one out there, even though they are much cheaper. If money had been my primary concern, I would have kept my Dewalt ... and saved myself $1900(?).

The cloud of a motor melt-down has been with me since I joined this Forum and read about so many motor and customer service foul-up stories. Since I got all my Festool tools from Lee Valley, I feel a bit better knowing that if they have issues, I have a reliable vendor to fall back on. In fact, about 75% of all the power and hand tools in my shop came from Lee Valley, accounting for about 90% of the value of my holding. I am sure this factor is reflected in the Festool sales figure attributed to Lee Valley (there are three or four Festool vendors (including LV) in my city).

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 05:47 PM by ChuckM »

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Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2017, 08:58 PM »
Saw that review (btw Bosch glide & Kapex) for the first time. Like most tool reviews, it tells little because the review was based on an half-an-hour use (or even less). You don't need to turn on the saw to know:

a) Kapex has the best dust extraction and b) its hold-down clamp is the best (and I still scratch my head why there are no copycats when they release new mitre saws).

I sold my Dewalt mitre saw (over 10 years old) after I bought the Kapex and so I expect the Kapex to run 10 years at least. If not, I have made a bad choice (and that wouldn't be my first one, after woodworking for close to 20 years now), and so be it. Of course, if that happened, I would not buy a Kapex as a replacement (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...).

With two years of Kapex in regular use (as a hobbyist, not as a production woodworker, mind you; I use my tablesaw 10 times more), I am sure it is meeting my needs in terns of accuracy and dust collection. I would not buy any other one out there, even though they are much cheaper. If money had been my primary concern, I would have kept my Dewalt ... and saved myself $1900(?).

The cloud of a motor melt-down has been with me since I joined this Forum and read about so many motor and customer service foul-up stories. Since I got all my Festool tools from Lee Valley, I feel a bit better knowing that if they have issues, I have a reliable vendor to fall back on. In fact, about 75% of all the power and hand tools in my shop came from Lee Valley, accounting for about 90% of the value of my holding. I am sure this factor is reflected in the Festool sales figure attributed to Lee Valley (there are three or four Festool vendors (including LV) in my city).

That’s not True

The WoodWhisper and Dan Pattison are probably the two most objective reviewers around. They both log tons of hours working on these tools.  They make actual projects with the tools they review.  They’re both practical Wood workers who think about how the Tools fit within the projects.

They use a lot of Festool and other brands. They don’t bias their reviews.  They tell you what you need for a project and why tool x,y,z is a good fit.

A lot brand loyalist will take issue with their reviews because they don’f always gush over high end toys.

Most of Festool’s problems can be solved by simply helping out the clients with premature motor failures on the Kapex.  They should be sending out replacement motors to those clients.  Anyone buying a Kapex has money to burn.  They’re the kind of people that will spend 10-15 K on Festool.  Kapex buyers are not your average tool consumer to begin with. 
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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 594
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2017, 09:35 PM »
 "...They both log tons of hours working on these tools."

My take is this: In the video, the Bosch saw was not even bolted down and I could only assume that the saw was not the regular saw in use in his shop. He checked the squareness with a combo square; I checked mine with the four-cut method: . It is day and night in terms of accuracy.

You may have info. outside the video that says the review was done after tons of hours of use; but that was outside my knowledge, if any. My Kapex is bolted down because it is a regular shop saw for me.

I have never used that Bosch saw and so I could only confine my comments (and I did) to my Kapex that is now two years old. I have used all the features on the Kapex except the dado cut which is handled by my tablesaw by default.

Now, is it money to burn? It's a matter of perspective. People who are not woodworkers think we woodworkers all are burning money. I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.

So I stand by my comments that the review as given in the video has told me little. By the way, as I said in my comment about brand loyalty, I am only loyal to my money. I used the Kapex on and off (mainly for stock prep.) at a local vendor during a one-year period before I bought mine. I liked the accuracy, dust collection, ease of setting the saw, etc. before burning my money.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:40 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2017, 10:38 PM »
"...They both log tons of hours working on these tools."

My take is this: In the video, the Bosch saw was not even bolted down and I could only assume that the saw was not the regular saw in use in his shop. He checked the squareness with a combo square; I checked mine with the four-cut method: . It is day and night in terms of accuracy.

You may have info. outside the video that says the review was done after tons of hours of use; but that was outside my knowledge, if any. My Kapex is bolted down because it is a regular shop saw for me.

I have never used that Bosch saw and so I could only confine my comments (and I did) to my Kapex that is now two years old. I have used all the features on the Kapex except the dado cut which is handled by my tablesaw by default.

Now, is it money to burn? It's a matter of perspective. People who are not woodworkers think we woodworkers all are burning money. I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.

So I stand by my comments that the review as given in the video has told me little. By the way, as I said in my comment about brand loyalty, I am only loyal to my money. I used the Kapex on and off (mainly for stock prep.) at a local vendor during a one-year period before I bought mine. I liked the accuracy, dust collection, ease of setting the saw, etc. before burning my money.

That’s his initial take.  You have to watch the live shows the WoodWhisper does on Friday’s.  He updates his reviews and shows how he has used the tools on real projects. You have to watch more of the videos and you’ll see the Bosch Miter Saw being used on those projects. 

I bought my Dewalt 782 4 years ago before Stanley messed-up the design to shed weight.  I have one of the better Dewalt saws.  I wouldn’t reccomend their newer models.  The cheap plastic parts impact accuracy of the sliders on the 2016 - 2017 models.


 
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4830
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2017, 11:01 PM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2017, 12:13 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5683
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2017, 12:15 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 408
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2017, 01:13 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Search this forum and any other wood working forum on the web.  There numerous Kapex owners upset over premature failed units.

The Bosch would not be my first choice to compare against the Kapex.  The Dewalt DW 780, the DW 717 and the Emerson made Ridgid MS255SR would be the 3 miter saws that I would compare with the Kapex. 

The DW 780, MS255SR, and the DW 717 all have excellent dust collection, superb accuracy, smooth accurate sliders, and clean cutting performance good enough for most wood working tasks.  None of them will beat a Kapex but they’re all solid performers in their own right.
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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2017, 02:23 AM »

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

You are clearly an absolute expert on the Kapex. Please tell me the number of people that have had a problem with their Kapex motor. To make it easier for you, because it would be unfair to ask you to provide a figure for the whole world, just limit it to two countries - The United States and Canada. Also, to make it easier for you, please round the numbers up or down (you can choose but we all know which way you will go) to the nearest 10.

BTW

The Kapex was my first Festool purchase. I spent several weeks looking at the market and narrowed it down to the Bosch Glide and the Kapex. The Kapex won by miles.


You said " Anyone buying a Kapex has money to burn.  They’re the kind of people that will spend 10-15 K on Festool. "

Please do not make assumptions about me or anyone else. Certainly do not publish those assumptions. Stick to the facts.

So, to the nearest 10 provide the figures for US and CA that you are basing your Kapex views upon.

Peter

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2017, 07:30 AM »
...

What motor issue?

Tom

I like your humour...

To the rest...
In any case, why do 1/2 the threads disappear into the black hole of "Kapex"?
The subject of the thread seems to have gotten moved off course.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5683
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Search this forum and any other wood working forum on the web.  There numerous Kapex owners upset over premature failed units.

The Bosch would not be my first choice to compare against the Kapex.  The Dewalt DW 780, the DW 717 and the Emerson made Ridgid MS255SR would be the 3 miter saws that I would compare with the Kapex. 

The DW 780, MS255SR, and the DW 717 all have excellent dust collection, superb accuracy, smooth accurate sliders, and clean cutting performance good enough for most wood working tasks.  None of them will beat a Kapex but they’re all solid performers in their own right.

What percentage of units produced/sold is the failure rate?

The only motor failures I've experienced is 1 DeWalt miter saw, 1 Bosch miter saw, 2 Bosch reciprocating saws, 1 Bosch Bulldog hammer drill. All within the first 3 years of ownership.

2 Kapex (I'm more perplexed by the fact it is not clear what the plural of Kapex is), no motor issues.

Festool electrical issues- 1 Vecturo (Plug-It pin broke), 1 RAS cord.

I've read about the complaints. I'll ask again, on FOG alone what is the percentage of failures to those who own the Kapex?

I'll go the the Bosch and DeWalt owners groups and bash their motors now......

Tom




Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2017, 09:08 AM »

Quote
I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.


Interesting that this was brought up.

 That is another business run by genius marketers. One where emotion and non rational consumer behavior play a huge part in the cost / ownership / value  proposition.

Offline Cochese

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2017, 09:39 AM »
Way too much emotion instilled into purchases of non-sentient things. I've seen it with computer processors, gaming systems, vehicles (trucks in particular in the US). I used to do it, so I understand it to only a small degree these days.

I like my Hitachi, but I am by no means married to it. It has a funky design which makes designing dust collection (which it is not very good at) difficult in a small space. I don;t remember the exact price I paid but it was under $500. I think I'd like a different saw at this point, but not sure the Bosch is much of an upgrade, which leaves the Makita or the Kapex. One is around $500. The other is around $1500, and has a specter of a possible motor issue about it.

I think for me to put real effort into choosing the Kapex two things would have to happen. The first is for Festool to either acknowledge there's an issue and say a redesign is being researched or stand behind the warranty even more by going to five years. With five years, I don't mind sending it in if it breaks during that period, but would only have to look at selling/buying new on a five year cycle instead of a three year one, for peace of mind. The other is I think the saw is overpriced by roughly $300. The only real thing it brings to the market over and above everyone else is dust collection at this point, and I'd trade the 10 pounds the Makita has for almost $1000 in my checking account.

It is going to be real interesting when the patents on the Domino expire. You know there will be other versions on the market almost immediately, and Festool is going to have to do even more to compete. I think extending the warranties is one of the ways they can do this, which lines up to my above comment. Perhaps the yearly increase needs to be looked at as well, even if only in a marketing standpoint.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2017, 10:07 AM »
Thread locked due to   [dead horse]   [dead horse]  and the fact that it is becoming more of a personal match. It has also become another Kapex debate topic which is related to the original topic but will go no where. We have plenty of Kapex issue topics on the forum. Every topic does not need to be made into another one.


Seth