Author Topic: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty  (Read 9178 times)

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Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 285
  • Alberta, Canada
What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« on: September 29, 2017, 09:33 AM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.
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Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1138
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 10:46 AM »
We need to know that the executive layer hears our frustration and is working to make things better.  Currently, communication both ways is filtered through Indiana.  Is there a North American executive level person that we can escalate to?  There should be someone at an executive level within the Festool organization that we can let know about problems that are not being addressed and some official communication back to us. 

What good is it to have a forum owned and run by Festool if we never know if anyone at an executive level is even aware of what is going on?

1. Fundamentally, quality control needs to be beefed up across all tool lines.  Maybe do some kind of evaluation of motor part suppliers and general re-thinking of motor designs.  Let us know that this is taking place.

2.  When there is a significant problem with a tool, some kind of official Festool communication would go a long way.  Kapex and the jumpy Pro5 sanders are two examples.  Are the sanders being tested as a final quality control?

3. There are certain things that Festool should change mid-product cycle.  For instance, rust prone router posts, missing LED lights, etc... Compared to the competition, Festool router posts seem to rust more easily.  It should be easy for Festool to offer a small, battery powered LED light that could be retrofitted to most tools.

4. Not really a flaw that needs correcting, but since you asked...I would like to see all Centrotec bits have the standard 1/4" groove and wire detent in addition to the Centrotec groove that they have now.
I think this would really help sell their cordless drills and Centrotec accessories.
Axminster offers this with their in house Centrotec compatible "universal" bits.
Axminster Centrotec
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 04:54 PM by RobBob »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1277
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 05:14 PM »
Quote
They need to stop the nonsense of raising prices every year. That alone is why I am looking at other brands constantly. I don't get a 5-10% raise every year so not sure why they do for offering the exact same product one day prior. Festool products present less value year after year.

arguably, it makes for a great value.

Look at the last ten sales of dominos on ebay.  What other tool is going to bring it's owner more than he paid for it ten years later ?   My last TS sold locally for what I paid for it 6 years ago.  In two days.  [eek]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 06:04 PM »
I think they would benefit if the consumables and accessories were priced in a way that didn't assume you weren't simply passing the cost on to a client.

Offer a lifetime warranty for 10~15% of the price of tool for home/hobby users and an extended (5+ years?) warranty for commercial users at a similar increment (yes, in most markets it'd be fair to consider the price already high enough for a lifetime warranty!)

Address the 110V tools are "poor cousins" issue that seems to be plaguing a lot of the range.

Buy Mafell and incorporate their range.

Address some of the long awaited products (impact driver, revised KAPEX, review small routers).

...

I personally have invested heavily in Festool with a "quality tools for a lifetime" expectation (no, not expecting tools to last 50 years, but realistically outlast a common brand by at least 3x). Although I haven't personally suffered significant failures, my tools haven't seen a lot of use ... until recently I would never have been concerned about my Festools failing me, but now I do have concerns [sad]


Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 349
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 06:13 PM »
I think they would benefit if the consumables and accessories were priced in a way that didn't assume you weren't simply passing the cost on to a client.

Offer a lifetime warranty for 10~15% of the price of tool for home/hobby users and an extended (5+ years?) warranty for commercial users at a similar increment (yes, in most markets it'd be fair to consider the price already high enough for a lifetime warranty!)

Address the 110V tools are "poor cousins" issue that seems to be plaguing a lot of the range.

Buy Mafell and incorporate their range.

Address some of the long awaited products (impact driver, revised KAPEX, review small routers).

...

I personally have invested heavily in Festool with a "quality tools for a lifetime" expectation (no, not expecting tools to last 50 years, but realistically outlast a common brand by at least 3x). Although I haven't personally suffered significant failures, my tools haven't seen a lot of use ... until recently I would never have been concerned about my Festools failing me, but now I do have concerns [sad]
I like the "buyMafell "
A light on the routers
Cheaper consumables
Better kapex-longer warranty
Price freeze
Thanks Charlie


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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1945
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 06:18 PM »
I’m a happy Festool buyer. I am loyal to the brand. All my Festool products work flawlessly including my Kapex. My TS55 cuts everything I ask it to do. Product quality is consistent with my expectations. My Festool store supports my requests. I plan to continue buying Festool products. I doubt I am the exception.
Birdhunter

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 06:51 PM »
I too am a happy Festool user.  Some of my tools are now 10 years old and I am not a hobbyist.  Many days I wish I was.

Cords - There is no need to have two different cords in North America.  Charge $2 more for the tools that use the smaller gauge cord and move on.  Factor in the costs savings of consolidation and they will make more money.

Pricing - Antss brought up a point, but his valid thinking and example only has a positive effect on those who have had their tools for some time.  The prices are getting unpalatable to more and more.  The compounding effect of the price increases is going to bite them.  It will get harder and harder for even their previous customers to justify. 

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 08:03 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.
Birdhunter

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 442
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 08:11 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Don't forget the free maps, and the in-house mechanic.
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set | C18 5.2 Set w/Centrotec Installer's Set | RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set |  Won the CXS Li 2.6 90 Limited Edition on 06/20/2016 | Metric Parallel Guide Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | FS1400/2-LR 32 Guide Rail (x1) | Next  Purchase: Something else Metric |

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3879
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 08:21 PM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back.
...

1.

2.

3.

4.

What would everyone else like to see improved.

In my opinion Trust is the key word there. Making overpriced Splinter-strips work, or having less power cord confusion, seems like applying lipstick to a pig.

The Kapex fiasco "sticks out like" <Australian expression>, and it has at least eroded my trust.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 08:23 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

@Birdhunter agreed, but I think pricing relativity is the real issue. We don't have a situation where one specific brand of petrol has 10x price over another.

Real margin erosion is the service fall off issue when it comes to point of sale service too ... the manufacturers and wholesale distributors are squeezing the margin out the retailers .. yet the retailers wear the burden of price competition. Hence the change to bonus discounts at the retail point if you buy more stuff instead of labour related REAL service.

Festool is a lot more expensive that tools of the same purpose, so it really needs to offer something for your extra $'s other that perceived prestige.

If you switch your thinking to "process" instead of "tool" I still firmly believe that Festool engineer their tools, systems and consumables so that you achieve a given result faster and better than using alternatives and that this is the cost equation Festool expect people to consider over the life of it's tools. Unfortunately your average tradesperson doesn't have years of financial analysis training to consider these factors [big grin]

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 08:33 PM »
In my opinion Trust is the key word there. Making overpriced Splinter-strips work, or having less power cord confusion, seems like applying lipstick to a pig.

The Kapex fiasco "sticks out like" <Australian expression>, and it has at least eroded my trust.

@Holmz completely agree .. KAPEXgate rocked the Festool community and I still don't think Festool has performed well enough to address the loss in confidence many loyal customers once had. Brand loyalty can only exist when you have complete confidence in the brand regardless of the item you buy. Lesser issues like the Ti15 and Carvex 400 have annoyed people, but flagships like the KAPEX need to be flawless globally.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1945
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 08:47 PM »
I am blessed to be able to buy tools because I like them and not because the ROI is better. That said, the Festool products I have bought justify, to me, their costs. Some like the Dominos, Kapex, and TS55 have made a dramatic impact on my woodworking. I cannot measure the impact, but I darn well enjoy it.
Birdhunter

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 08:58 PM »
I am blessed to be able to buy tools because I like them and not because the ROI is better. That said, the Festool products I have bought justify, to me, their costs. Some like the Dominos, Kapex, and TS55 have made a dramatic impact on my woodworking. I cannot measure the impact, but I darn well enjoy it.

Oh I agree, the "pleasure to use" and minimal dust experiences are a major factor to me ... if I had to measure ROI it would be less than 5% [embarassed] ... but that's about me and not the tools! [big grin] [wink]

I think a good parallel is an expensive dive watch ... it doesn't have a phone or a heart rate monitor in it, it can be 100x more expensive than a cheapie, it's not made buy exploited Chinese workers in an uber factory or by robots - yet it's a please to use, nice to look ant and has rarely failed you on a 100m dive [smile]

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 908
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Loosen restrictions on European vendors selling to US customers, or better, abolish the concept of NAINA. 

And along the lines of a previous comment, I seem to recall a survey a while ago asking me what I thought about more involvement from Festool here in the FOG.  I understand that could be considered a can of worms, but I would point to the Kapex threads.  Bigger can of worms.
-Raj

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1277
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 09:11 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Gas is only $2.75-$3/gallon. Even in Buckhead  [wink]  You can still get those services performed at a couple of small stations down in S.GA. , around the quail plantations.

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments.  Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ? 

Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units.  In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range.  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3879
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 09:18 PM »
...
...  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

And Mirka is ahead of them... Of course Mirka have been doing their own sanders for decades and not just rebadging other's stuff.

There are just too many good options unless one requires the colour to be green.

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2017, 09:29 PM »
Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units.  In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range.  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

@antss I can't argue with you, but with your case, even if a tool simply performs as well as another - maybe the extra sensory buzz is enough to help brand loyalty.

Tool brands can be like any other brands that produce and range of things ... take Apple, you may love their laptops and hate their phones. With Festool and their drills I can comprehend people being negative ... particularly from a pricing perspective, yet the Centrotec system and the range of chucks do give them a competitive productivity advantage and the C-series do have a "surgical" precision feel ... if these characteristics don't benefit you or you get similar benefits from another brand thats fine ... but to squeeze this topic back to what I think is a very important issue, the drills generally haven't had a negative impact on loyalty for their price or features but the clunkiness of the PDC gearbox and the lack lustre performance of the Ti15 certainly have impacted loyalty.

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 950
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2017, 10:56 PM »
I just wish Festool would fix a few things. Small things that bug me are the rail connectors - no engineering went in to them. The anti-chip strips on the rails that come loose - replaced mine with Makita ones and no more problems. No lights on several tools like routers - time for some upgrade replacement models.
The really big one is the lack of response on the Kapex issues. Why why why have they not released a new model to address the problems? Seems like their premier product and there are just too many people with problems. This is so damaging to their reputation in my eyes.
As to pricing, well this is becoming a real problem as I recently retired and have a reduced income. I surely will be comparison shopping with other brands.

Offline Roseland

  • Posts: 526
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 03:39 AM »
Festool needs to stand behind its products.  If it produces a flawed product, like the Kapex, it should ideally re-engineer and recall for upgrade.  At a bare minimum it should offer an extension to the warranty for free. 

Not long ago I took a neighbour's Apple Mac in for repair.  It was five and a half years old and had a hardware fault that meant the screen was flickering with vertical stripes.  I was quite prepared for Apple to say it was beyond economic repair, but apparently it was a known issue.  They replaced the screen at no cost.  Festool could learn from this with the Kapex.

Festool don't make the best of much; Mirka make better sanders, Mafell make better saws and so on.  Festool's claimed strength is that they offer a system, and they must show they mean it.  Discontinuing products (MFS, OF1010 edging accessories etc) shows that their claims are just unsubstantiated sales patter.

I haven't given up on Festool, but if I was starting from scratch my tool choices would be very different.  It is inexcusable that basic things, like the splinter guards on rails coming unstuck hasn't been addressed.

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1945
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 05:09 AM »
Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.
Birdhunter

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I'm not talking theoretical birdhunter, I'm talking actuals.

And during the Great Recession FT prices were still going up , yet most people's pay was not.

It just a money grab, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, Festool is a business. And they're out to make a profit.  All I'm saying is - call a spade a spade.

Offline escan

  • Posts: 21
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 09:10 AM »
An electronic dance music musician, who had meteoric rise and became known mainstream from a fairly fringe, yet devout, fan-base explained his marketing genius as "creating a world" for his fans. He allowed direct video access to his music creation, great mascot, extremely fan interactive, spoke with them on-line, shared his life and it became part of their life. You could be immersed in that world.

Asking to regain loyalty sounds like we're the ones stuck in that Festool world, hoping to recast the vision that started it. Its a testament to the strength of being part of perceived greatness and the horror and aftermath of finding out it was something other. "Tools are a means to end", users, sell and buy a better option-they move on.

Hopefully the relationships formed here are stronger than any attachments to perceived greatness. This forum has been a great resource over the years and I hope to contribute to that once in a while.


Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 4439
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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 09:40 AM »
Id like to see the Classified add folder improved. Because with all these people unhappy with their tools, I dont see much being listed on the classified add folder or even craigslist.

List them if yer unhappy, there are a lot of folks like me that are looking for used festools.
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 11:14 AM »

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments.  Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ? 


I'm not talking theoretical birdhunter, I'm talking actuals.


 Since you are talking actuals .................

      Do you know that they don't?

   For speculation purposes maybe they get  2 - 3% increase every year, and cost of materials and manufacturing cost adds the rest?



It just a money grab, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, Festool is a business. And they're out to make a profit.  All I'm saying is - call a spade a spade.

     It is not an across the board percentage. The amount of increase varies for each item. Which leads me to believe there is more to it than a straight money grab. Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but stating it as a fact is a   theoretical   not an  actual   on your part.

Seth

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 11:16 AM »

Hopefully the relationships formed here are stronger than any attachments to perceived greatness. This forum has been a great resource over the years and I hope to contribute to that once in a while.


             [thumbs up]   Yes, this  ^^^^  [thumbs up]


Seth

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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    • Warner Mill Works
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 11:39 AM »
Who cares?  Really, why care? 

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Seth - I've mentioned before that I've lived, been educated , and worked in Germany.  I have also worked for German companies here.   

You might just be surprised how extensive my contacts are and how far they reach.   

I'm just trying to have a conversation here.  If you want to get in a  match about hard facts , I'm happy to oblige.  However , you yourself have asked that that sort of thing be curtailed around here.  And since Festool isn't likely to break their no comment policy especially on this matter - it would be pointless anyway. 

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 843
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 01:08 PM »
My  [2cents]

Do they need to

My kapex is fine I fact it's the best saw I've owned

My sanders all great in fact my ro125 my second Festool is my go to sander

All my drills do there respective jobs perfectly I never expected one to do everything

I don't need to mention routers or the domino they speak for themselves

The Ts55 is the industry standard as far as I'm concerned it has been a game changer for 100% of the guys I work with
If you want to rip 75mm Iroko you need different tool



The extractors work perfectly

Centrotec is really good quality if it's too expensive don't buy it.If you want to use other bits put the jacobs chuck in

I honestly don't see the problems we keep seeing posted on what is a Festool owners site

I do buy other brands I've got into makita lately as they have the cordless tools I've needed at the time

This is all based on my personal experience


Mick






Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3463
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 01:42 PM »
I can't complain...I'm very satisfied with all of my Festools except for the never ending Kapex issues and their jigsaws.

Festool needs to come up with a PERMANENT fix for the Kapex.  Problem solved  [big grin]

I sold my Trion & Carvex and purchased a Mafell P1 cc.  Problem solved  [cool]

I will add that I am perplexed about how Festool manages their accessories. MFS = obsoleted,   circular saw metal cutting blades = obsoleted,   spark trap = obsoleted,   OF 1010 edging accessories = obsoleted,   original style 500669 hose connection = obsoleted, and finally Centrotec items = INCOMPLETE selection and some replacement bits are UNAVAILABLE.   [crying]   [mad]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:08 AM by Cheese »