Author Topic: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty  (Read 9899 times)

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Online Oldwood

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  • Alberta, Canada
What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« on: September 29, 2017, 09:33 AM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
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Offline RobBob

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 10:46 AM »
We need to know that the executive layer hears our frustration and is working to make things better.  Currently, communication both ways is filtered through Indiana.  Is there a North American executive level person that we can escalate to?  There should be someone at an executive level within the Festool organization that we can let know about problems that are not being addressed and some official communication back to us. 

What good is it to have a forum owned and run by Festool if we never know if anyone at an executive level is even aware of what is going on?

1. Fundamentally, quality control needs to be beefed up across all tool lines.  Maybe do some kind of evaluation of motor part suppliers and general re-thinking of motor designs.  Let us know that this is taking place.

2.  When there is a significant problem with a tool, some kind of official Festool communication would go a long way.  Kapex and the jumpy Pro5 sanders are two examples.  Are the sanders being tested as a final quality control?

3. There are certain things that Festool should change mid-product cycle.  For instance, rust prone router posts, missing LED lights, etc... Compared to the competition, Festool router posts seem to rust more easily.  It should be easy for Festool to offer a small, battery powered LED light that could be retrofitted to most tools.

4. Not really a flaw that needs correcting, but since you asked...I would like to see all Centrotec bits have the standard 1/4" groove and wire detent in addition to the Centrotec groove that they have now.
I think this would really help sell their cordless drills and Centrotec accessories.
Axminster offers this with their in house Centrotec compatible "universal" bits.
Axminster Centrotec
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 04:54 PM by RobBob »

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 05:14 PM »
Quote
They need to stop the nonsense of raising prices every year. That alone is why I am looking at other brands constantly. I don't get a 5-10% raise every year so not sure why they do for offering the exact same product one day prior. Festool products present less value year after year.

arguably, it makes for a great value.

Look at the last ten sales of dominos on ebay.  What other tool is going to bring it's owner more than he paid for it ten years later ?   My last TS sold locally for what I paid for it 6 years ago.  In two days.  [eek]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 06:04 PM »
I think they would benefit if the consumables and accessories were priced in a way that didn't assume you weren't simply passing the cost on to a client.

Offer a lifetime warranty for 10~15% of the price of tool for home/hobby users and an extended (5+ years?) warranty for commercial users at a similar increment (yes, in most markets it'd be fair to consider the price already high enough for a lifetime warranty!)

Address the 110V tools are "poor cousins" issue that seems to be plaguing a lot of the range.

Buy Mafell and incorporate their range.

Address some of the long awaited products (impact driver, revised KAPEX, review small routers).

...

I personally have invested heavily in Festool with a "quality tools for a lifetime" expectation (no, not expecting tools to last 50 years, but realistically outlast a common brand by at least 3x). Although I haven't personally suffered significant failures, my tools haven't seen a lot of use ... until recently I would never have been concerned about my Festools failing me, but now I do have concerns [sad]


Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 349
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 06:13 PM »
I think they would benefit if the consumables and accessories were priced in a way that didn't assume you weren't simply passing the cost on to a client.

Offer a lifetime warranty for 10~15% of the price of tool for home/hobby users and an extended (5+ years?) warranty for commercial users at a similar increment (yes, in most markets it'd be fair to consider the price already high enough for a lifetime warranty!)

Address the 110V tools are "poor cousins" issue that seems to be plaguing a lot of the range.

Buy Mafell and incorporate their range.

Address some of the long awaited products (impact driver, revised KAPEX, review small routers).

...

I personally have invested heavily in Festool with a "quality tools for a lifetime" expectation (no, not expecting tools to last 50 years, but realistically outlast a common brand by at least 3x). Although I haven't personally suffered significant failures, my tools haven't seen a lot of use ... until recently I would never have been concerned about my Festools failing me, but now I do have concerns [sad]
I like the "buyMafell "
A light on the routers
Cheaper consumables
Better kapex-longer warranty
Price freeze
Thanks Charlie


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Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1950
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 06:18 PM »
I’m a happy Festool buyer. I am loyal to the brand. All my Festool products work flawlessly including my Kapex. My TS55 cuts everything I ask it to do. Product quality is consistent with my expectations. My Festool store supports my requests. I plan to continue buying Festool products. I doubt I am the exception.
Birdhunter

Online Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 06:51 PM »
I too am a happy Festool user.  Some of my tools are now 10 years old and I am not a hobbyist.  Many days I wish I was.

Cords - There is no need to have two different cords in North America.  Charge $2 more for the tools that use the smaller gauge cord and move on.  Factor in the costs savings of consolidation and they will make more money.

Pricing - Antss brought up a point, but his valid thinking and example only has a positive effect on those who have had their tools for some time.  The prices are getting unpalatable to more and more.  The compounding effect of the price increases is going to bite them.  It will get harder and harder for even their previous customers to justify. 

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 08:03 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.
Birdhunter

Offline McNally Family

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 08:11 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Don't forget the free maps, and the in-house mechanic.
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set | C18 5.2 Set w/Centrotec Installer's Set | RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set |  Won the CXS Li 2.6 90 Limited Edition on 06/20/2016 | Metric Parallel Guide Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | FS1400/2-LR 32 Guide Rail (x1) | Next  Purchase: Something else Metric |

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Holmz

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 08:21 PM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back.
...

1.

2.

3.

4.

What would everyone else like to see improved.

In my opinion Trust is the key word there. Making overpriced Splinter-strips work, or having less power cord confusion, seems like applying lipstick to a pig.

The Kapex fiasco "sticks out like" <Australian expression>, and it has at least eroded my trust.

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 08:23 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

@Birdhunter agreed, but I think pricing relativity is the real issue. We don't have a situation where one specific brand of petrol has 10x price over another.

Real margin erosion is the service fall off issue when it comes to point of sale service too ... the manufacturers and wholesale distributors are squeezing the margin out the retailers .. yet the retailers wear the burden of price competition. Hence the change to bonus discounts at the retail point if you buy more stuff instead of labour related REAL service.

Festool is a lot more expensive that tools of the same purpose, so it really needs to offer something for your extra $'s other that perceived prestige.

If you switch your thinking to "process" instead of "tool" I still firmly believe that Festool engineer their tools, systems and consumables so that you achieve a given result faster and better than using alternatives and that this is the cost equation Festool expect people to consider over the life of it's tools. Unfortunately your average tradesperson doesn't have years of financial analysis training to consider these factors [big grin]

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 08:33 PM »
In my opinion Trust is the key word there. Making overpriced Splinter-strips work, or having less power cord confusion, seems like applying lipstick to a pig.

The Kapex fiasco "sticks out like" <Australian expression>, and it has at least eroded my trust.

@Holmz completely agree .. KAPEXgate rocked the Festool community and I still don't think Festool has performed well enough to address the loss in confidence many loyal customers once had. Brand loyalty can only exist when you have complete confidence in the brand regardless of the item you buy. Lesser issues like the Ti15 and Carvex 400 have annoyed people, but flagships like the KAPEX need to be flawless globally.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 08:47 PM »
I am blessed to be able to buy tools because I like them and not because the ROI is better. That said, the Festool products I have bought justify, to me, their costs. Some like the Dominos, Kapex, and TS55 have made a dramatic impact on my woodworking. I cannot measure the impact, but I darn well enjoy it.
Birdhunter

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 08:58 PM »
I am blessed to be able to buy tools because I like them and not because the ROI is better. That said, the Festool products I have bought justify, to me, their costs. Some like the Dominos, Kapex, and TS55 have made a dramatic impact on my woodworking. I cannot measure the impact, but I darn well enjoy it.

Oh I agree, the "pleasure to use" and minimal dust experiences are a major factor to me ... if I had to measure ROI it would be less than 5% [embarassed] ... but that's about me and not the tools! [big grin] [wink]

I think a good parallel is an expensive dive watch ... it doesn't have a phone or a heart rate monitor in it, it can be 100x more expensive than a cheapie, it's not made buy exploited Chinese workers in an uber factory or by robots - yet it's a please to use, nice to look ant and has rarely failed you on a 100m dive [smile]

Offline RKA

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Loosen restrictions on European vendors selling to US customers, or better, abolish the concept of NAINA. 

And along the lines of a previous comment, I seem to recall a survey a while ago asking me what I thought about more involvement from Festool here in the FOG.  I understand that could be considered a can of worms, but I would point to the Kapex threads.  Bigger can of worms.
-Raj

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 09:11 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Gas is only $2.75-$3/gallon. Even in Buckhead  [wink]  You can still get those services performed at a couple of small stations down in S.GA. , around the quail plantations.

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments.  Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ? 

Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units.  In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range.  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

Offline Holmz

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 09:18 PM »
...
...  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

And Mirka is ahead of them... Of course Mirka have been doing their own sanders for decades and not just rebadging other's stuff.

There are just too many good options unless one requires the colour to be green.

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2017, 09:29 PM »
Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units.  In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range.  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.

@antss I can't argue with you, but with your case, even if a tool simply performs as well as another - maybe the extra sensory buzz is enough to help brand loyalty.

Tool brands can be like any other brands that produce and range of things ... take Apple, you may love their laptops and hate their phones. With Festool and their drills I can comprehend people being negative ... particularly from a pricing perspective, yet the Centrotec system and the range of chucks do give them a competitive productivity advantage and the C-series do have a "surgical" precision feel ... if these characteristics don't benefit you or you get similar benefits from another brand thats fine ... but to squeeze this topic back to what I think is a very important issue, the drills generally haven't had a negative impact on loyalty for their price or features but the clunkiness of the PDC gearbox and the lack lustre performance of the Ti15 certainly have impacted loyalty.

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 950
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2017, 10:56 PM »
I just wish Festool would fix a few things. Small things that bug me are the rail connectors - no engineering went in to them. The anti-chip strips on the rails that come loose - replaced mine with Makita ones and no more problems. No lights on several tools like routers - time for some upgrade replacement models.
The really big one is the lack of response on the Kapex issues. Why why why have they not released a new model to address the problems? Seems like their premier product and there are just too many people with problems. This is so damaging to their reputation in my eyes.
As to pricing, well this is becoming a real problem as I recently retired and have a reduced income. I surely will be comparison shopping with other brands.

Offline Roseland

  • Posts: 526
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 03:39 AM »
Festool needs to stand behind its products.  If it produces a flawed product, like the Kapex, it should ideally re-engineer and recall for upgrade.  At a bare minimum it should offer an extension to the warranty for free. 

Not long ago I took a neighbour's Apple Mac in for repair.  It was five and a half years old and had a hardware fault that meant the screen was flickering with vertical stripes.  I was quite prepared for Apple to say it was beyond economic repair, but apparently it was a known issue.  They replaced the screen at no cost.  Festool could learn from this with the Kapex.

Festool don't make the best of much; Mirka make better sanders, Mafell make better saws and so on.  Festool's claimed strength is that they offer a system, and they must show they mean it.  Discontinuing products (MFS, OF1010 edging accessories etc) shows that their claims are just unsubstantiated sales patter.

I haven't given up on Festool, but if I was starting from scratch my tool choices would be very different.  It is inexcusable that basic things, like the splinter guards on rails coming unstuck hasn't been addressed.

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1950
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 05:09 AM »
Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.
Birdhunter

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I'm not talking theoretical birdhunter, I'm talking actuals.

And during the Great Recession FT prices were still going up , yet most people's pay was not.

It just a money grab, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, Festool is a business. And they're out to make a profit.  All I'm saying is - call a spade a spade.

Offline escan

  • Posts: 21
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 09:10 AM »
An electronic dance music musician, who had meteoric rise and became known mainstream from a fairly fringe, yet devout, fan-base explained his marketing genius as "creating a world" for his fans. He allowed direct video access to his music creation, great mascot, extremely fan interactive, spoke with them on-line, shared his life and it became part of their life. You could be immersed in that world.

Asking to regain loyalty sounds like we're the ones stuck in that Festool world, hoping to recast the vision that started it. Its a testament to the strength of being part of perceived greatness and the horror and aftermath of finding out it was something other. "Tools are a means to end", users, sell and buy a better option-they move on.

Hopefully the relationships formed here are stronger than any attachments to perceived greatness. This forum has been a great resource over the years and I hope to contribute to that once in a while.


Offline jobsworth

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 09:40 AM »
Id like to see the Classified add folder improved. Because with all these people unhappy with their tools, I dont see much being listed on the classified add folder or even craigslist.

List them if yer unhappy, there are a lot of folks like me that are looking for used festools.
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 11:14 AM »

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments.  Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ? 


I'm not talking theoretical birdhunter, I'm talking actuals.


 Since you are talking actuals .................

      Do you know that they don't?

   For speculation purposes maybe they get  2 - 3% increase every year, and cost of materials and manufacturing cost adds the rest?



It just a money grab, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, Festool is a business. And they're out to make a profit.  All I'm saying is - call a spade a spade.

     It is not an across the board percentage. The amount of increase varies for each item. Which leads me to believe there is more to it than a straight money grab. Maybe it is maybe it isn't, but stating it as a fact is a   theoretical   not an  actual   on your part.

Seth

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 11:16 AM »

Hopefully the relationships formed here are stronger than any attachments to perceived greatness. This forum has been a great resource over the years and I hope to contribute to that once in a while.


             [thumbs up]   Yes, this  ^^^^  [thumbs up]


Seth

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 11:39 AM »
Who cares?  Really, why care? 

Offline antss

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Seth - I've mentioned before that I've lived, been educated , and worked in Germany.  I have also worked for German companies here.   

You might just be surprised how extensive my contacts are and how far they reach.   

I'm just trying to have a conversation here.  If you want to get in a  match about hard facts , I'm happy to oblige.  However , you yourself have asked that that sort of thing be curtailed around here.  And since Festool isn't likely to break their no comment policy especially on this matter - it would be pointless anyway. 

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 843
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 01:08 PM »
My  [2cents]

Do they need to

My kapex is fine I fact it's the best saw I've owned

My sanders all great in fact my ro125 my second Festool is my go to sander

All my drills do there respective jobs perfectly I never expected one to do everything

I don't need to mention routers or the domino they speak for themselves

The Ts55 is the industry standard as far as I'm concerned it has been a game changer for 100% of the guys I work with
If you want to rip 75mm Iroko you need different tool



The extractors work perfectly

Centrotec is really good quality if it's too expensive don't buy it.If you want to use other bits put the jacobs chuck in

I honestly don't see the problems we keep seeing posted on what is a Festool owners site

I do buy other brands I've got into makita lately as they have the cordless tools I've needed at the time

This is all based on my personal experience


Mick






Online Cheese

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 01:42 PM »
I can't complain...I'm very satisfied with all of my Festools except for the never ending Kapex issues and their jigsaws.

Festool needs to come up with a PERMANENT fix for the Kapex.  Problem solved  [big grin]

I sold my Trion & Carvex and purchased a Mafell P1 cc.  Problem solved  [cool]

I will add that I am perplexed about how Festool manages their accessories. MFS = obsoleted,   circular saw metal cutting blades = obsoleted,   spark trap = obsoleted,   OF 1010 edging accessories = obsoleted,   original style 500669 hose connection = obsoleted, and finally Centrotec items = INCOMPLETE selection and some replacement bits are UNAVAILABLE.   [crying]   [mad]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:08 AM by Cheese »

Offline GhostFist

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 03:16 PM »
Festool needs to decide what market it's catering to. Hobbyists or professionals. I also think they should listen to the fog less. No offense intended by that I'm just saying that opinions on here aren't an accurate portrayal of what ever market they're catering to believes

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RobBob

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 04:38 PM »
Festool needs to decide what market it's catering to. Hobbyists or professionals. I also think they should listen to the fog less. No offense intended by that I'm just saying that opinions on here aren't an accurate portrayal of what ever market they're catering to believes
How could they listen any less?

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Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2017, 04:57 PM »
I think requests for nonsense like radios and incremental and unnecessary upgrades come from (Not exclusively) here. Tool problems of course should be listened to but some of the feature requests aren't always the best

Offline Master Carpenter

  • Posts: 41
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2017, 04:57 PM »
Brand loyalty?  Are we to be expected to buy Festools simply because they are Festools?

If Festool wants me to spend my money on their product, built the best tool. If your going to charge me a premium price, I expect more in return. My local dealer has gone the extra mile for me more than once (thank you Ultimate Tools), but the brand needs to do more. If my tool breaks, I still need to get the job done. Abusing the 30 day return policy shouldn't be necessary.

My list of Festools issues:
My ts55 just stopped one day. Finished one cut, no issue. Next cut, nothing. It's a saw with moderate use. I have a Bosch table saw, soft start circuit, feedback to maintain speed, never had a issue with its electronics in 15 years and it's been abused. Years of daily job site use. The price I pay for Festool, that's inexcusable. Quality is lacking.

I'm the owner of a Ti15. Just doesn't drill. Pull the trigger and it beeps. How does a tool like this make it to market. Festool needs a replacement policy on these. Hand it in, get a brand new drill of my choosing.

On drills, centrotec. A proprietary chuck system. Why? Just why? If your going to have a proprietary chuck, you need to have all the bits I'm going to need available at ALL TIMES. Not when you want. Not only in sets. I live in Canada, we use a lot of Robertson screws, Robertson, not square drive or square head. I need the correct bits. And when one of my drill bits wear out or break, I want to walk into my dealer and buy another, not wait for you to release another full set so I can pay a couple hundred dollars to replace a few dollars in bits.

Sandpaper. It's a consumable. I go through a lot. My time is also money, as soon as the paper performance drops off, it's in the garbage. I might be able to sand with the same piece for a half hour, but I'd be wasting time. It costs too much. You can call it premium all you want, its "sand" on Velcro backing. Drop the price in half. It's not like your giving the sanders away for free and making the money on the paper.

The power cords. Just sell all tools with the heavy cord. End of discussion.

In general, tool accessories pricing. Example. I bought a vac sys recently. Looked into the mounts for the mft. $366 each. I need 2 for both bases. It's a couple pieces of metal with a hinge and a couple thumb screws to hold it on. Over $700. And tax on top. I'll be making my own, thank you.

I'm fully invested in "the system", it's my job. Festool lets me do things I haven't found a way to do with any other brand. But my purchases are getting father and farther apart. I'm returning to other brands. There may yet come a day when I free up some capital and unload the Festools that aren't the core.
Ts 55, Ts 75, of 1010, lr 32, mft, mfs 700, RO 150 x2 + paper asort, RO 90 + paper asort, pro 5, df 500 + dom asort, hl 850 e, ti 15, cxs, centrotec set, ct48, ct sys, vac sys, 32;55x2;118 tracks, a stack of sys and an og festool first aid kit.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 529
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2017, 06:21 PM »
Of course any tool company can always make their tools better, more durable, etc. or offer better, more responsive service.  But truthfully, the silence on the Kapex issue to me represents the biggest red flag.  There’s a real problem and Festool’s [apparently] choosing to pretend like it doesn’t exist.  More than anything else, that’s where they will lose me.  Mine hasn’t burned up yet probably because it sees such light use, but believe me, if I feel left high and dry on this one I won’t hesitate to ditch more than just the Kapex.
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 357
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2017, 06:25 PM »
There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 

Online Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2017, 06:34 PM »
There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.

Bert, it is my understanding that Festool and TTS were set up from a legal standpoint from the beginning to be a family business perpetually.  I learned this from more than one reliable source.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 357
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2017, 06:46 PM »
Good to hear that. I like family owned firms.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 

Offline Holzhacker

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2017, 07:15 PM »
I'm not sure the complaints on the FOG are necessarily a good indicator of diminishing brand loyalty. We tend to be a picky, bitchy bunch far more than the average consumer; especially when it comes to tools. My tools put food on the table, they better perform or the manufacturer isn't going to get anymore of my money.
As far as brand loyalty, I am loyal as long as a company is making a good product that I need. And yes I'll pay a premium if I like the product enough. If the product blows then I'm not buying it. Luckily for me my Kapex hasn't had any issues. The Trion isn't any better than a Bosch but not any worse either so its ok. All the other vast amounts of festools have paid for themselves very well.
My guess (and recommendation if someone asked me, which no one will  [big grin]) is that festool may be looking at the hobbyist and corporate markets more than the contractor market. Corporate clients have money, need DC and like the cache. Hobbyists will justify the cost. If I were festool I wouldn't put too much effort getting the contractor market, some effort yes but not my main focus. It would be festool competing against the low ball bidder for tool dollars, i.e. home depot, menards, etc.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 349
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2017, 07:34 PM »
I'm not sure the complaints on the FOG are necessarily a good indicator of diminishing brand loyalty. We tend to be a picky, bitchy bunch far more than the average consumer; especially when it comes to tools. My tools put food on the table, they better perform or the manufacturer isn't going to get anymore of my money.
As far as brand loyalty, I am loyal as long as a company is making a good product that I need. And yes I'll pay a premium if I like the product enough. If the product blows then I'm not buying it. Luckily for me my Kapex hasn't had any issues. The Trion isn't any better than a Bosch but not any worse either so its ok. All the other vast amounts of festools have paid for themselves very well.
My guess (and recommendation if someone asked me, which no one will  [big grin]) is that festool may be looking at the hobbyist and corporate markets more than the contractor market. Corporate clients have money, need DC and like the cache. Hobbyists will justify the cost. If I were festool I wouldn't put too much effort getting the contractor market, some effort yes but not my main focus. It would be festool competing against the low ball bidder for tool dollars, i.e. home depot, menards, etc.
I think you hit the nail on the head,
Festool seems to be going for the dyi/hobbyist more than the contractor/carpenter.
I NEED a miter saw that's lite,accurate and has a dust management system , but will wait till they get this ironed out.
I have been at the counter of my local tool shop many times to buy the kapex , but theses threads have crept into my mind before pulling the trigger.
A lot of saws fit the bill , but only one is less than 50lbs , and that's what I need.
Charlie


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Offline jobsworth

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2017, 07:47 PM »
Who cares?  Really, why care?

@WarnerConstCo.

Well Darcy,
No ones watching football now so they have to do something to occupy their time
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 165
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2017, 09:16 PM »
I think it might be a long term trend.  Festool seem to be producing tools these days that are either flawed or compromised in some way.  I also find that the company's products no longer represent sufficient quality or performance to justify their rather extortionate Oz pricing.

In fact, just about each & every Festool purchase I've made since about the year 2000 has been pretty disappointing.  So much so that I'm obliged to reconsider whether or not they can make the right tools for me any more.  My RS1C sander, crude as it is has been performing flawlessly for me for the last 1/4 century, as has my SR5E vac (at least it did until it was nicked).  My Deltex sander is also excellent, albeit somewhat eclipsed by the variety of inaccessibility accessories available from Bosch, & my Gen. 2 Rotex 150 has been exemplary.  Likewise, my more recently purchased CT22 vac & 2 belt sanders have been flawless performers.

Granted, my couple of cordless drills were crap, but cordless tech was never really the company's forte anyway.  When comparing their cordless tools to the opposition, they invariably seem to be about 3-5 years out of date in regard to features & performance.  But as I said, it was never their specialty anyway, so perhaps that I need concede the point that one doesn't necessarily buy into Festo/ol's cordless range for its actual capabilities.  They must have alternative virtues of which I'm blissfully unaware.

However, some of my premium priced later purchases have been especially disappointing.  The Kapex & Trion saws, Duplex & Ro 90 sanders have been, at least in my hands anyway, grotesquely expensive white elephants.  In my opinion extravagant wastes of money that have consistently not only underperformed my expectations, but also the performance and uses for which they were originally marketed.

In summary, a rather profligate waste of about $4K odd that I for one can ill afford.  Unless or until the company can regain the ability to provide products that have a level of performance commensurate with their pricing policies, then I for one feel obliged to look elsewhere for better value.  For me, the smaller but seemingly extremely high quality products made by & for Mafell may now be a closer fit to my own personal expectations.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:21 PM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 270
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2017, 09:49 PM »
There is no such thing as brand loyalty. If you are a discerning consumer/buyer you want to buy the optimum tool for your needs. If that turns out, repeatedly, to be products from the same manufacturer, you might be considered 'brand loyal'. But -- the moment that brand disappoints, they loose your loyalty.

Which apparently happens quite a lot (viz The Poplar shop and other FOG-ers).

Brands, or let's say corporations, fiddle around with cost vs profits - they try to maximise return on investment. etc. The thing that sets Festool apart is that is a family owned corp. Which might imply that they are more concerned about their reputation than a Chinese conglomerate that owns brand from all kinds of origins. That is -- until they try to build up profits to sell out, but there are no indications that such is the case.

The only thing that counts is that you keep your wits about, be critical and stay blind to fancy marketing and such.


Just from personal experience, reading thru forums, and talking to other craftsmen I know, there is such a thing as brand loyalty.

Go over to the GarageJournal forum and you'll see all the forum threads devoted to different tool brands, or even minor things like people who collect different colors of Snap-On tools. They also have threads devoted to Milwaukee, Dewalt, Bosch, Makita power tools amongst other topics.  While some of the loyalty has to do with advantages, such as staying within a particular battery system, there are other people who will buy most of their corded tools from a single manufacturer, or in the case of Milwaukee and now Dewalt, are also buying the same branded hand tools.

Tools can be expensive. While this is not always the case, a Power tool from a premium brand like Festool can cost as much as a major appliance, especially if you add in the cost of various accessories which in many cases can only be used for that exact tool. If you find a brand that produces good, or excellant results, or which lasts an incredibly long time or exceeds your expectations, your probably more likely to purchase more tools from the same brand based on faith, especially since looking over the various specs from a whole bunch of different manufacturers for the same type of tool can take an incredibly long time, and you might not even readily find or notice all the information that is really pertinant for you.

On the other hand, if a company produces one or more giant Clusterbucks and you buy into them, and the company doesn't fix it right, the consumer is going to act like the brand just fell down a privy pit in an Indian slum.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1064
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2017, 10:23 PM »
I also think they [Festool] should listen to the fog less.
Rest assured they excel at that.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1958
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2017, 10:53 PM »
When I was in college, gas (petrol) was $0.29/gallon and you got a free glass, oil check, tire inflation check, and windscreen wash if you filled the tank. Now, it’s $4.00 a gallon, you pump it yourself, no free glass, no oil check, pay for air, and no windshield wash.

Price escalation is a factor of hidden inflation and increasing labor costs.

Gas is only $2.75-$3/gallon. Even in Buckhead  [wink]  You can still get those services performed at a couple of small stations down in S.GA. , around the quail plantations.

Festool's price escalation is too consistent to reflect real world inflationary adjustments.  Also, do you think all their assembly "team members" get a 5% pay raise every year ? 

Kev , I just can't get to a place where I believe that my OF router is any faster or produces better cuts than any of my Dewalt, Bosch , or Porter Cable units.  In some instances I like using the OF more, but that's a sensory thing. Ditto with mitre saws. And don't get me started with the drill range.  The only place FT has a chance is with sanders. But Bosch is right on their heels.
. Gas hovers near $4.00 a gallon here in Chicago for Premium.  Just a FYI... [wink]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Online Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 293
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2017, 06:59 AM »
I tend to agree with the posts that question Festool's desire to capture the contractor market.  Knock on wood, none of my tools (except Pro5 out of the box) have made the journey to Indiana, BUT I do take care of my FTs more than any other tool in my stable.  I don't necessarily baby them, but I do my best not to abuse them either.
Dance with who brung ya...

Online Oldwood

  • Posts: 288
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2017, 12:26 PM »
I think not just this thread but a few others along the same vein are a goldmine of feedback for Festool if they want to improve their brand name in the market place. I know  I highly value feedback from my customers so I know what I can do better. The worst thing that can happen in my mind is for the customer to say nothing to you but tell everyone else about the concerns they have with your product.

On another note I noticed a few threads about the RO150 plug-it socket. I replaced mine yesterday and the part was around $8.00 and took less than 5 minutes to install. I would advise anyone who has a lot of these tools to have one of these sockets on hand and change it out when it does not seem to lock securely. When I noticed the discoloration on the cord end I changed cords only to discover the new cord looked the same in short order. I ruined 2 cords before I twigged it was the socket that was the problem. I should have known because it did not seem to twist on very tight

I think for me Festool created an expectation with their ads and the higher than standard pricing that the tools are best in class and will last. Small issues like brushes cords etc excluded. I don't think they are living up to that expectation with some of the tools and it seems a lot of other people feel the same.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2017, 01:58 PM »
I don't understand the whole thread. I have always bought tools based on my experience with a particular tool or brand. I don't have brand loyalty, per se. I do happen to own quite a few Festools - Domino, CT, TS, MFT, sanders, a router, VacSys, but would never just buy Festool because it's Festool. I assume that Festool attempts to create brand loyalty just like other manufacturers do. However, Festool doesn't make the best of every tool on the market. For example, I would never buy a Festool cordless drill. Dewalt makes great drill/drivers and impact drivers, along with the fact that, once you buy a 20V Max tool, the batteries are usable for other cordless Dewalt tools which are also great (even outdoor lawn tools).

Since my experience with Festool and Dewalt and Porter Cable have been great, I will continue to buy those brands based on price and need in the future. Fortunately I'm set for awhile.

One more thing, forums and ratings online contribute to my decisions on tools, but they are generally not a great sample of experience with the tools as the posts and ratings from those with problem generally fare outweigh the posts from those who love the tool.
Randy

Online Oldwood

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2017, 02:41 PM »
I don't understand the whole thread. I have always bought tools based on my experience with a particular tool or brand. I don't have brand loyalty, per se. I do happen to own quite a few Festools - Domino, CT, TS, MFT, sanders, a router, VacSys, but would never just buy Festool because it's Festool. I assume that Festool attempts to create brand loyalty just like other manufacturers do. However, Festool doesn't make the best of every tool on the market. For example, I would never buy a Festool cordless drill. Dewalt makes great drill/drivers and impact drivers, along with the fact that, once you buy a 20V Max tool, the batteries are usable for other cordless Dewalt tools which are also great (even outdoor lawn tools).

Since my experience with Festool and Dewalt and Porter Cable have been great, I will continue to buy those brands based on price and need in the future. Fortunately I'm set for awhile.

One more thing, forums and ratings online contribute to my decisions on tools, but they are generally not a great sample of experience with the tools as the posts and ratings from those with problem generally fare outweigh the posts from those who love the tool.
I don't buy just one brand either. I always review all tool makers to determine who seems make the best tool for my situation. Some tools I will use once in a blue moon and I don't want to spend to much on them but the tools I use daily I buy the best I can find. I think while I said brand loyalty it is more brand image for me. I had the expectation that if you bought Festool you could expect it would outlast the competition. I don't think that is necessarily true anymore.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 476
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2017, 03:18 PM »
The concept of brand loyalty for tools is ridiculous. I buy the best tool for the job and don't care if my tool colors match, however there are plenty of tool collectors here where color matching might be important.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1301
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2017, 05:13 PM »
Jim - there's a difference between brand loyalty and blind obedience.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2017, 05:44 PM »
Jim - there's a difference between brand loyalty and blind obedience.

What is it?

Loyalty implies something towards blindness.
What is the nuance of the difference?
How does one tell which group they fall into?

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 258
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2017, 06:45 PM »
I really like Festool. With the tools I have used I have been able to do things I couldn't before. But that being said, I also have Bosch and other companys tools. One has to be smart in ones purchasing. As others have said no one company makes the best of everything. But Festools are very very good. And I have not regretted any of my purchases.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set.

Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1149
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2017, 07:03 PM »
Maybe the subject should be "what can Festool do differently"?

 [2cents]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2017, 07:06 PM »
It's amusing to read about people that say they don't have brand loyalty .. who then rattle off several brands that they find reliable. Whether its "loyalty" or simply confidence in brand reputation ... it all boils down to the same thing, the brand name triggers a bunch of stuff that will either make you more inclined or less inclined to buy it.

Companies spend squillions of dollars on brand ... sometimes it's all they have! I think Festool earned it's brand reputation through solid reliability and accuracy over the years and the associated word of mouth that built it's customer network and the only way to re-invigorate that same network is to address the same values.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2017, 07:21 PM »


Loyalty implies something towards blindness.


Not necessarily ... you can easily become loyal based on a number of positive experiences and far more quickly swing the other way based on a number of negative experiences. "loyalty" will be a different combination of factors to different people. It's NOT "blindness" its more like accumulated experience giving you a starting position.

Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.




Edit > moved reply out  of quote box.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 08:25 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2017, 08:33 PM »


Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.



There is a general forum concept I can get behind.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Here are a few other words that show up on FOG often and are frequently used (but not always) as digs, to incite, or be dismissive. And don't  generally help any discussion.  Apologist, kool-aid drinkers, fanboy, sheep, etc. Not saying you can't use them. Just saying that they generally don't help lead to anything of value or productive in a FOG topic.


Seth

Online Oldwood

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2017, 08:53 PM »
I think Kev nailed it. The thread should have been What can Festool do to regain brand confidence. Because that is what some of us have lost. I would love to see Festool step up to the plate and address some of the concerns because I think they are a company that has been innovative and have brought a lot of new ideas into the tool business.  I love the domino it is a fantastic tool.

Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 512
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2017, 05:36 AM »
Fault the inter-web.  If technology didn’t enable us to bring such a small group (FOG is what percent of Festool’s customer base?) together and share our experiences, there’d be less of a perception of a brand problem.  To be fair I probably wouldn’t know about Festool either.

If we looked at raw data, how many issues have they really had?  Is there’s actually a Kapex problem?  Certainly there appears to be in our small customer-base sample set but what are the real metrics?  Festool has the data and we do not. 

The rust complaint is interesting to me.  What’s the sample set of that in total router sales and how many of us believe environment has absolutely nothing to do with the instances that actually did occur.

Our perception is that Festool isn’t addressing product and brand problems.  The reality may be there isn’t one or either.  Data may actually support annual price increases.  Market penetration trends may actually indicate that this thread is nothing more than noise.






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Online Cochese

  • Posts: 238
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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2017, 10:12 AM »
The issue of the Kapex motor breaking down and sending it in has less of an impact on me as it would someone who relies on it for an income. What makes me pause is that after three years it becomes a liability. Festool could put a little more trust behind it by extending the warranty to five or even seven years to inspire more confidence.

I pretty much have all the Festools I'm going to buy at this point outside a Rotex. Maybe a cordless TS. I have been longing for a Kapex, even with it's ridiculously high price (comparatively). Re-engineer the thing already or stand behind it more than the standard warranty.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2017, 05:28 PM »


Loyalty implies something towards blindness.


Not necessarily ... you can easily become loyal based on a number of positive experiences and far more quickly swing the other way based on a number of negative experiences. "loyalty" will be a different combination of factors to different people. It's NOT "blindness" its more like accumulated experience giving you a starting position.

Throwing words around like "blindness" and "obedience", etc don't really help things along here ... we're looking for constructive input towards improving Festool's interaction with and delivery to the marketplace that should also be a benefit to FOG members and current and future customers. At least that's how I see it ... not just another topic that becomes a dig at people that predominately buy Festool tools.

Well done M8 @Kev

Reasons are be based upon facts and metrics.
Confidence is often an emotive thing.
Loyalty is an emotive thing.
"Blindness" and "obedience" are provocative words that point at the credulity of the person.

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Offline Mismarked

  • Posts: 120
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2017, 07:39 PM »
I am in the “junior hobbyist” category.  I have only been using Festools for about four years, which means I can’t opine on any long-term trends, but it also means that all of my Festools are fairly recent production.
   Perhaps it is because I don’t run the tools as much or as hard as the professional might, but I have yet to have a single problem with any of them that I can remember (except for my MFT top that swelled from humidity when I kept it in an open garage near the bay, which was user error).  If across-the-board quality issues have developed in the last few years, I would expect to have seen at least some problem in the new tools I have purchased (CT26, MFT, TS55, OF1400, RO90, DF500, ETS150, Carvex, 2 C12s, CSX, OS400, LR32, PRO5, parallel guides and various accessories) during this time period.
   For me, the Festool system made woodworking, as opposed to rough work around the house, possible, based on accuracy and repeatability.  But equally, and perhaps more, important has been the FOG, which has provided too many ideas, solutions and inspirations to count.  The enthusiasm of those posting on the site over the past few years has always been an indication to me that there was/is, in fact, considerable brand loyalty, even though, in many cases the members might recommend alternative brands for particular types of tools.  For me, that enthusiasm, together with positive experiences working with the tools, did lead to my own brand loyalty.  And that continues.  It is something different from the green koolaid, and it isn’t blindness.  I am not going to buy a Festool that I don’t need (although I probably didn't really need the Vecturo), and I am not going to buy a Festool without considering the alternatives.  But if I need a tool that Festool sells, I am going to give it strong consideration based on my personal experience, which continues to grow.
   I do wonder if the voices of those who do experience occasional problems appear much more pronounced on FOG, leading to brand loyalty threads, for at least two reasons: (1) those that don’t have issues typically don’t get on the website and post that their tools are working great--other than the posts about how perfect the CSX is (which IMO it is); and (2) if an occasional problem arises with a particular tool and those experiencing that occasional problem all post on the FOG, it looks like a mass plague when it appears on a website with what is likely a fairly limited number of members in relation to the number of Festool users worldwide.  Obviously, some members experience problems with tools, which happens with any manufacturer of products and is certainly frustrating when it happens.   
     There is just no way for me to conclude that there is an across-the-board quality control problem with Festool that should diminish my brand loyalty when we don’t know the sample size and I haven’t personally seen any issues with my own tools.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2017, 06:52 PM »
Festool let’s the dust settle too long on product updates.  Makita has similar issues.  You wonder sometimes if Makita and Festool have some of the same board members. 

The routers need to be updated.  Improved dust collection on the OF 1400.

Bosch has done a great job riding Festool’s heals.  The Bosch ROS has caught up Festool on several models of Sanders and vacuums. 

The prices for Festool Antistatic hoses are totally insane.  There’s no reason for hoses to cost that much.

Bosch will be releasing a new group of higher performance router models in 2018.  We’ll have to see how the new models stack up against the Festool line in 2018. 

Festool really needs speed up inovation and product updates.  Bosch and other tool vendors are catching up making it increasly hard to justify the price of going green outside of the domino and some of their sanders.


Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2017, 12:16 AM »
With all the negative comments many seem to have about Festool products, it's hard to understand why they would ever buy another. It's hard to understand why people continue to post since most seem to feel that Festool doesn't listen (at least those who seem most likely to post). If I were Festool's upper management I'd have to think very hard about discontinuing the FOG. Other companies get along fine without. When I bought my first Festool I got very good information and answers on the FOG. Now, if I truly need information about a product or tech support I call Festool or go to my favorite Woodcraft store in Madison, Wisconsin. Festool classes are also a good source. Any of those would provide the information better plus I don't have to take the risk that I will be verbally abused for my question or opinion.
Randy

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 165
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2017, 06:36 AM »
Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2017, 11:38 AM »
Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.

Why would they send a $50 voucher to everyone. First it appears that most of the Festool tools don't fail. Mine didn't. Second no one has any idea what made tools fail; manufacturing defect, poor quality control, misuse, abuse, harder than normal use? My experience with Festool is they have always provided me top-notch support. Those that have problems complain. Generally I have gone to Festool if I had a question or a problem. I tried solving a problem on the FOG and found the responses weren't as good as those I got from Service.  When I have a problem with any tool I buy whichever brand I always go to the company first rather than an online forum. The correct answer comes quicker and without llkelihood of verbal abuse from the few on every forum who feel the need to do that.
Randy

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2017, 12:01 PM »
Well, they could start by sending everybody a $50 voucher for electric tools only.  Not really enough to actually buy anything, nor small enough to be insulting either.

Given the current price/performance ratio of many of their current range of tools, it would hardly hurt the company's bottom line either.

And how about sending each & every customer who has experienced premature Kapex failure a bigger, fatter, more meaningful voucher ($100? $200?) by means of an apology for all the accumulated angst & perceptions of corporate indifference.

Might perhaps go some way towards winning back a few hearts & minds.

Why would they send a $50 voucher to everyone. First it appears that most of the Festool tools don't fail. Mine didn't. Second no one has any idea what made tools fail; manufacturing defect, poor quality control, misuse, abuse, harder than normal use? My experience with Festool is they have always provided me top-notch support. Those that have problems complain. Generally I have gone to Festool if I had a question or a problem. I tried solving a problem on the FOG and found the responses weren't as good as those I got from Service.  When I have a problem with any tool I buy whichever brand I always go to the company first rather than an online forum. The correct answer comes quicker and without llkelihood of verbal abuse from the few on every forum who feel the need to do that.

People make similar complaints about Mirka even when they replaced sanders that were out of warranty.  People make the same complaints about Bosch even though Bosch send out replacement parts within 2-weeks for most tools and repairs happen within 30 days with some rare exceptions. 


Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 178
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2017, 06:22 PM »
Buy back all Kapex at 85%  retail cost and offer the redesigned version at 15% discount to previous Kapex buyers

Online overanalyze

  • Posts: 405
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2017, 07:19 PM »
I think their perceived lack of honest response to the Kapex is their biggest ding on their rep right now. If it truly is a small percentage of failures then relase the numbers. As one their highest priced tools that sucker should outlast other brands. German engineering right? Supposed to be some of the best. Design a new motor that swaps into the existing setup and let everyone know your doing it.

I love the tools I own. I have a TS55, Trion 300, ETS125, Rotex 125, Pro5, Domino 500, a Midi, CT Sys, CT36AC, Planex, HKC55, and a Kapex. Bought them all to use in my company. They get used but never abused. The only issues I have ever had (knock on wood) was with the Kapex.

I will say their service is top notch...it has had the motor replaced 2 times in the last year. 2nd time it was out of warranty but they fixed it less my shipping cost. I think that is good service but it also has me wondering why? I presume because the motor is a problem.

My Kapex is always plugged into a CT vac plugged into the wall directly. Never on a genny. It is a finish trim saw only.

All that said I still will buy tools from them that I feel are worth the money. However it won't be another Kapex (and that sucks because I love that saw!) unless something is changed on them. To much money vs the risk vs the potential downtime.



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2017, 10:45 PM »
Would any of those who complain about service in general, or specifically the Kapex, believe Festool if they did release their data? Based on the posts in this thread, I'd bet a release of the Kapex performance data would generate and immediate extremely long thread about the veracity and accuracy of the data. Maybe the Kapex is a bad tool or maybe it isn't. It really isn't important. If the Kapex you own fails after warranty before you think it should, it's a bad tool and, if it were me having the bad experience, I wouldn't buy another. What about all the people who have owned a Kapex for long periods without failure? Have we heard from them?

All of us can only speak from our experience. Mine has been great without exception (except for those tools I've bought that I found out I didn't really need, but that's my fault).
Randy

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2017, 12:06 AM »
Festool let’s the dust settle too long on product updates.  ...

The routers need to be updated.  ...
...
Festool really needs speed up innovation and product updates.  ...

I dunno...
The 30 year old Elu routers were very good.
Dust collection was an improvement.

Things like adding LED lights and minor "tweeks" seem (IMO) change that make the tools outdated, rather than resulting in a significant improvement.

Basically routers have been good tools for decades, and while I like motor brakes, brushless motors, LED lights, and dust collection, I cannot see myself rushing out to replace a great tool with one that is only slightly better.

Really how much innovation is left to be done? And can the R&D be spread across the routers to make them affordable?
That may be easier for Bosch and Makita if their sales numbers are a lot higher.

I would consider buying a Festool router now as it is really good, and I cannot envision the 2200 becoming a whole lot better.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3477
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2017, 12:12 AM »
I would consider buying a Festool router now as it is really good, and I cannot envision the 2200 becoming a whole lot better.

Unless of course it grew LED lights...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2017, 12:31 AM »
I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3477
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2017, 12:41 AM »
I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2017, 01:18 AM »
I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

Clearly!
If buying a new tool... then yes I would like it.
But I have a bunch of tools and I am not going to go replace them all just for a light, which people know everyone wanted 5 years ago.
The $100 headlamp works with all of them and allows me to continue using those fine tools.

Maybe I can rephrase it all into more cogent prose which follows the thread title of "brand loyalty"?

If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.

As it is now about 1/2 of my purchases are previously owned tools which became outdated and made obsolete. So the loyalty is to some former concept of a tool which has been dropped. I am specifically referring to the DX93 which evolved to become an add on feature of a more complicated 'do it all' sander.

I have no faith that getting a more complicated router would not become obsolete next year in the quest for more innovation.
And hence I have a headlamp.



It doesn't matter if it is Festool, Bosch, Ford...
The Supreme court made corporations boats and planes legal people.
And people like to see commercials like the one where Juan is picking their coffee beans... And believing that they have some personal relationship.

One cannot have a two-way personal relationship with a concept as easily as they can with real people..
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 01:29 AM by Holmz »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2017, 02:49 AM »
I use a headlamp... like a miner.
It works the same on many tools.

So does flint and kindling... [big grin]

So why add something to your head when it could be added to the tool instead? My mantra for the morrow... lighten your load.

Clearly!
If buying a new tool... then yes I would like it.
But I have a bunch of tools and I am not going to go replace them all just for a light, which people know everyone wanted 5 years ago.
The $100 headlamp works with all of them and allows me to continue using those fine tools.

Maybe I can rephrase it all into more cogent prose which follows the thread title of "brand loyalty"?

If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.

As it is now about 1/2 of my purchases are previously owned tools which became outdated and made obsolete. So the loyalty is to some former concept of a tool which has been dropped. I am specifically referring to the DX93 which evolved to become an add on feature of a more complicated 'do it all' sander.

I have no faith that getting a more complicated router would not become obsolete next year in the quest for more innovation.
And hence I have a headlamp.



It doesn't matter if it is Festool, Bosch, Ford...
The Supreme court made corporations boats and planes legal people.
And people like to see commercials like the one where Juan is picking their coffee beans... And believing that they have some personal relationship.

One cannot have a two-way personal relationship with a concept as easily as they can with real people..

It’s odd that Festool doesn’t offer a 10 year warranty at the prices they charge.  Bosch keeps releasing newer models of similar products slowly eroding away the clear advantage Festool used to enjoy over their fellow German Competitor in Blue. 

Eventually if they don’t start innovating and refining their tools, they’ll eventually fall behind a Bosch’s newer tool offerings.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 487
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2017, 03:52 AM »
If 'they' innovated a way to offer replacement parts to upgrade the existing tool(s), then that would IMO be nice.
(It would be uncommon in a consumer market to do that, and it more of a sustainability concept.)

Being able to upgrade an existing tool would do a lot more for "brand loyalty" (IMO), than releasing a newer version of last years "the best" tool, and my knowing (or believing) that there is a planned cycle of obsolescence that I am buying into. The later does not foster any brand loyalty in me - which this thread is directed at understanding.

In addition to LED light retrofits, another example would be if there was a brushless motor Kapex upgrade. Even I would stop to take a look.

As it is, once the tool is mine, it is no longer their tool, and we have no loyalty to each other, only legal warranty laws.
Then the only loyalty I have is to myself, and therefore I need to be loyal in treating and maintaining the tool in way to keep it useful.

If that same tool was backed in a planned evolution and upgrade, then it would be "our tool" (Mine and the manufacture's), and I would understand that we have a relationship to each other than extends past the point of sale, and that I would have loyalty to them as they are also loyally maintaining and extending the useful life of that tool.
Wise words.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2017, 04:08 AM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

   - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

   - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

Offline BGeva

  • Posts: 5
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2017, 06:56 AM »
Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.
Those days are in the past as well as $.25 per gallon gas. Most US companies are settling for 1-2% and even this for “higher performers”. Also, for higher salary you are expected to perform more efficiently. So some of this expense is covered.

I think prices going up 5% every year is unreasonable. Also, selling for the same price with reduced complectation is another dirty trick not suitable for a company positioning itself this high.

On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.

I just started to use Festool about a year ago. Started with sanders and so far very happy. Consumables are very expensive though.

Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...

BG
Thanks,

BG

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2017, 08:18 AM »
...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2017, 10:09 AM »
This is bit    [off topic]  sorry.

      Before the clear anti-splinter strips there were black ones. If you go back in time on FOG you can find the topics discussing how to get the black ones off the rail in order to change them out. The adhesive was very strong and took work to remove. Back then people were asking for strips that were easier to get off.  Festool changed to the clear strips and the weaker adhesive. Now we have the opposite.  I think an in between is needed.

Seth

Online Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2017, 10:10 AM »
Yes, I could believe a company would budget 5% pay raise every year. I think that would be very reasonable. High performers get more and poor performers get less.
Those days are in the past as well as $.25 per gallon gas. Most US companies are settling for 1-2% and even this for “higher performers”. Also, for higher salary you are expected to perform more efficiently. So some of this expense is covered.

I think prices going up 5% every year is unreasonable. Also, selling for the same price with reduced complectation is another dirty trick not suitable for a company positioning itself this high.

On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.

I just started to use Festool about a year ago. Started with sanders and so far very happy. Consumables are very expensive though.

Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...

BG

Sorry to hear about your strips peeling on new rails.  Perhaps you should contact your dealer.  @Festool USA
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline ajshobby

  • Posts: 11
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2017, 11:58 AM »
I don't post much but here is my take.   Blind loyalty to one manufacturer would be crazy.  I have worked for 3 different tool manufacturers and the one thing that I've learned is that there are always problems and issues somewhere in a product line.  All manufacturers at some point ignore or gloss over the problems unless:.
1. Safety, think TS55 recall
2. Sales fall so significantly that they can't justify producing more.   This usually ends up in removal of the product from the shelves.  TI15 impact I think that was.
 I buy my Festool and take advantage of the 30 day return if / when I need.  I have only returned the carvex and a vac so far.  They didn't meet my expectations for value so off they went.
I use DeWalt 20v for my cordless platform except I do like the csx for doing assembly work.  Right tools for what I do while keeping with the systems and interchangeability that I like. 
The cord frustrates the heck out of me and it makes 0 sense from a manufacturing point of view but it's what they do ( this needs to change as it would fit better with the system / interchangeability process they promote). I also now use Makita tracks because they are a better value for me.  I hate the fact they clash but time is money and I only have a finite amount of both.
Festool has a good gimik, a premium price and fairly decent quality / customer service.  Industry standard price increases has fallen in the past 10 years closer to 1% unless it's a true niche product.   More and more manufacturers are even changing product pricing now to align with a more comodidy type market strategy.  You will actually see some prices go up and others go down year over year to align more with manufacturing costs.  Festool does their own thing and props to them as they are still very successful.     

Offline BGeva

  • Posts: 5
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2017, 01:31 PM »
...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?
I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG
Thanks,

BG

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2017, 07:21 PM »
...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?
I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG

"Not completely disappointed" does not sound too positive positive.

The TS55 is touted as the best, and then when there is disappointment and the MT55 is pointed out, the FT apologists always say it is not worth the extra coins.

It basically requires some significant brand loyalty to justify the need and expense for magically long rails and magical connectors or other accessories (which pretty much negates much of the price differential).

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #85 on: October 16, 2017, 09:33 AM »
...
On “buy Maffel” idea - nice idea that will bring the prices even higher, so not sure.
...
Just few days ago got TS55 and the strips ON BOTH new rails are failing straight from the box! Not what I expected from $136 piece of aluminum...
...

Did your decision for purchasing this track saw have a component of brand loyalty?

Do/did you understand other track saws and their rail systems, and all the pros and cons of different manufacturers gear?

What are you expecting from Festool to satisfy or improve your opinion of their saw?
I did check the various track saws and closely checked FT vs. Makita vs. DeWalt vs. Triton. Mafell is just out of my league price wise. After some thinking went with FT, even though it is the most expensive one. Part of the reasons were “system”, believe in brand overall quality and design etc. I am not completely disappointed, but had few nasty surprises (see my separate post in this section). Would expect a bit more in depth thinking from FT. Was not aware of Kapex issues until checked this post, but it is alarming.

BG

"Not completely disappointed" does not sound too positive positive.

The TS55 is touted as the best, and then when there is disappointment and the MT55 is pointed out, the FT apologists always say it is not worth the extra coins.

It basically requires some significant brand loyalty to justify the need and expense for magically long rails and magical connectors or other accessories (which pretty much negates much of the price differential).

Sometimes the price of many add-on’s are just insane.  LongLife bags costing $300 dollars.  Having to pay $40 for Router connection rods to the Router to the track adapters, the $700 price tag for the LR 32.  Then you still have to buy the LR 32 track. 

I appreciate the add-on.  A lot of the add-on’s are priced in a way that keeps a lot of users from buying them. 

As nice as the LR 32 is, there’s a lot of alternative add-on’s from Kreg, Mafell, Woodpeckers, Rockler, ect that allow you to do the shelf pins and Euro hinges for less with similar accuracy.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1301
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #86 on: October 16, 2017, 10:19 AM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

   - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

   - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

dunno Peter.  Olwood says right off the bat that these are his "peeves".  Which I don't think many people would confuse with fact.

Splinter guards fall off in some locations.  They seem to do better in the cool damp N. European climates like you have.  In the hot Southeastern USA they tend to fall off.  Doesn't matter if they are legacy black ones or the new clear ones.  Even the makita ones fall off here.  There's some fact in there.

I won't belabor the Kapex point too much.   If the actual numbers were so insignificant then FT should publish them and shut everyone up. 

His statement about Ts55's power is factual.  There are similar saws costing less that have more power.  Watts are watts and money is money.  Easy to verify.

I think the power cord situation has some merit.  From a users' perspective it doesn't make much sense to have two.  But you're correct , this isn't a fact.  I've speculated that the increased cost of the thicker cord is probably about the same as the logistical & cost savings accrued by dropping the SKU of the older one.  But again not fact.   

If there was only one , and no precedent , how many would complain about the cord begin too thick ?    A few I'm sure just to keep the actuarials on their toes.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 16
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2017, 04:33 PM »
I really don't understand the concept of "brand loyalty" at all. Why would I be loyal? There's a clear exchange of money for product (and service) with every purchase. Everytime I lay my hard earned money on the table I better make sure this is a good deal for me. I'm not going to buy a Festool (substitute Bosch, Mafell, Makita, whatever here) drill just because their track saw was good. Festool has tried to lock people into their product line by creating a "system" (if you buy A it and all its accessories will also work with B) but between many products there really isn't any logical overlap and the really obvious and useful stuff like systainers and vacs are pretty much universally available. Right now with a big transition to cordless power tools the manufacturers are again trying to lock people in via the battery platform. I try not to get caught, I don't need most of my tools to be cordless anyway. If Festool wants me to buy Festool, they have to create high end quality at a competitive price point. That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2017, 06:09 PM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

   - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

   - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter
I won't belabor the Kapex point too much.   If the actual numbers were so insignificant then FT should publish them and shut everyone up.

I sincerely doubt that anything would "shut everyone up".
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:27 PM by grbmds »
Randy

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 192
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2017, 07:23 PM »
That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

Neither am I. In my shop, I have many different brands of machines from different companies/retailers/manufacturers/origins. Same with cars. My loyalty is only with my money in the sense that I try to get the best out of each buck I use.

For example, I don't think there are better alternatives out there than the DJ and so I got a DF500, but at the same time, I don't think I need a CT dust extractor to use with it and so I hook it up to a dust deputy with a regular shop vac.

Cordless tools? Except for drills, I am not a fan of other cordless tools and so I won't get sucked into any battery platforms.

I can sum up my tools in two words: United Nations.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2017, 08:39 PM »
That's all, I'm not loyal to any other brand either.

Neither am I. In my shop, I have many different brands of machines from different companies/retailers/manufacturers/origins. Same with cars. My loyalty is only with my money in the sense that I try to get the best out of each buck I use.

For example, I don't think there are better alternatives out there than the DJ and so I got a DF500, but at the same time, I don't think I need a CT dust extractor to use with it and so I hook it up to a dust deputy with a regular shop vac.

Cordless tools? Except for drills, I am not a fan of other cordless tools and so I won't get sucked into any battery platforms.

I can sum up my tools in two words: United Nations.

People over think brands.  LG parts are used to make LG Fridges.  Sony and Panasonic use LG OLED displays.  Bosch uses parts from Mafell for some products.  A lot of companies use Sanos for their Systainers, L-Box’s, ect. 

Some people have this one dimensional view of their brands.  They’ll bash other brands based on perceived difference even when the brands are using the same parts.   

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online Oldwood

  • Posts: 288
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2017, 09:38 PM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

   - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

   - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I did say the clear splinter guards hanging off of "MY" tracks. That is a fact for me I live in dry southern Alberta , don't know if that is a factor but the black ones never had this problem. I have noticed the clear guards seem to shrink. I put them on left a little long and they are short in 2 or 3 weeks and falling off on the ends.

I believe the Kapex is a disaster for the brand name. I hear it a lot on job-sites. I bought a Makita miter saw. I have been using miter saws since the first power chop saw came out and I have never heard of one needing a new armature and winding until the Kapex. Bearings and brushes and switches but never the melt down the Kapex seems to be prone to. I can't be without a miter saw so I would not risk the Kapex. I am sure it is better than my Makita but I know this one will be there when I need it.

I would never choose the saw with less power if I had a choice. You may cut only sheet stock I cut everything you will find in the wood shop or job site. I bought the TS75 for the power and depth of cut but when I was looking for a extra saw I bought the Makita.

 I am not trying to sell any of this as fact it is just my opinion.

YMMV
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2017, 09:45 PM »
With all the I am done and up in smoke posts I think a lot of people, me included have lost some trust with the Festool brand. So what could they do to get it back. I'll start with a few of my pet peeves.

1. the clear splinter guards hanging off of all my tracks. Go back to the black ones.

2. own up to the Kapex disaster and give people a 10 year warranty after all they bought the best shouldn't it be expected to last as long as a saw that costs half as much.

3. The TS 55 has less power than a saw that costs half as much? There is no reason for this saw to be so wimpy.

4. on cord for all the tools. That makes no sense to have 2 you can't tell apart unless you look at the plug.

What about everyone else what would you like to see improved.

FWIW this is meant to be a positive post not bashing but suggesting.

The OP is making it appear that all of the above are clear facts....

  - I like my splinter splinter guards as they are and mine have been firmly attached for years.

  - the problems that some people have experienced with their Kapex saws has not been quantified and so it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that it is a disaster - mine gets used every day and is still going strong after 6 + years. There was a poll inviting people to state if they had a problem with theirs (rather than helping to bash Festool when either their own Kapex was fine or they did not own one at all).

   - My TS55 is used mainly for sheets good but sometimes for cross cutting and ripping oak slabs. It does not lack power if the right blade is used for the task.

   - the One Cord issue could be solved by Festool by making one type a different colour, or maybe the user could do this very easily.

All of the above is opinion - the stuff in quotes is the OP's opinion and the stuff below that is mine. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I did say the clear splinter guards hanging off of "MY" tracks. That is a fact for me I live in dry southern Alberta , don't know if that is a factor but the black ones never had this problem. I have noticed the clear guards seem to shrink. I put them on left a little long and they are short in 2 or 3 weeks and falling off on the ends.

I believe the Kapex is a disaster for the brand name. I hear it a lot on job-sites. I bought a Makita miter saw. I have been using miter saws since the first power chop saw came out and I have never heard of one needing a new armature and winding until the Kapex. Bearings and brushes and switches but never the melt down the Kapex seems to be prone to. I can't be without a miter saw so I would not risk the Kapex. I am sure it is better than my Makita but I know this one will be there when I need it.

I would never choose the saw with less power if I had a choice. You may cut only sheet stock I cut everything you will find in the wood shop or job site. I bought the TS75 for the power and depth of cut but when I was looking for a extra saw I bought the Makita.

 I am not trying to sell any of this as fact it is just my opinion.

YMMV

Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 

Festool worried too much about being one of the lightest miters saws on the market.  The priority should have been the most reliable miter saw around. 

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 487
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2017, 02:31 AM »
Splinter guards fall off in some locations.  They seem to do better in the cool damp N. European climates like you have.  In the hot Southeastern USA they tend to fall off.  Doesn't matter if they are legacy black ones or the new clear ones.  Even the makita ones fall off here.  There's some fact in there.
I have made an excursion into the adhesive field (from a producers standpoint) some years back, it's hard (to impossible) to make one that works evenly well in all climate zones that can be found on this planet.

Adhesives are designed to work well inside certain ambient conditions, hot melt type adhesives (as one example) can be peeled off easily above their designed temperature window and completely fail to attach to the target surface below it (as the adhesive will have lost its flexibility when to cold).

The problem gets worse as adhesive films need a release coat (so the adhesive will stick to only one side of the film, else you would have problems unwinding it or removing the protective strip), but in case the release coat isn't correctly formulated for the target climate it can unbind from the protective surface and migrate on-/into the adhesive, lowering (up to the point of completely disabling) the ability to bind with a target surface.

Failure can also be be caused by microbiology (as you could have a local species that simply likes to eat this type of glue).

Another failure source can be be the target surface not being cleaned thoroughly enough (so it's still contaminated with oil, silicone, dust, whatever).

TL;DR: Adhesives that works well in Canada can fail when used in Florida (and the other way around), making slight mistakes in the application process can also be fatal.

So... to solve the problem with splinter guards falling off the rails (in case it's related to an unfit adhesive, not application problems in the initial production) festool would need to map failures to the climate zone they're happening in and have their supplier formulate an adhesive that will work relieably in that environment - then make a batch of spliter guards that will exclusively be delivered (ideally: also stockpiled, as continued storage of adhesive film in the wrong climate conditions can make it fail) to that area.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 16
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2017, 08:25 AM »
Simply said, brand loyalty implies that I would buy a tool from Festool even though I know there is a better tool or a similar tool at a better price available from another manufacturer. I would rather be loyal to myself, my family and my friends and vote with my wallet.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 476
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2017, 10:48 AM »
Brand Loyalty <=> Blindness

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1301
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2017, 01:30 PM »
Oh great , thanks for telling me I might have critters living in my splinter guards.  [big grin] [big grin]


I'd have preferred to remain ignorant on that subject.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 487
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2017, 05:16 PM »
Oh great , thanks for telling me I might have critters living in my splinter guards.  [big grin] [big grin]

I'd have preferred to remain ignorant on that subject.
You can calm down, they're so little that you won't be able see them at all ;)
Additionally that scenario is quite unlikely.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2017, 05:42 PM »
...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2017, 05:50 PM »
...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted.   

Online Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 10793
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2017, 05:52 PM »
Steven,  have you used a Kapex?

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline RobWoodCutter

  • Posts: 79
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2017, 06:06 PM »
"What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty?"

For the small percentage of folks that have had issues or the 100K people that currently own and use and are perfectly happy with their festools?

I buy Festool because they suite my needs and I can afford them. There is no Brand loyality=Blindness:

Vacs: CT-22 w/boom arm, CT-26, Midi
(2) MFT/3 tables
CMS w/2 extensions
Kapex
CXS set
T-18+3 set
Centrotec installer set
Kapex
TS-55 EQ
TS-75 EQ
Guide Rails: FS800/2,FS1400/2(2),FS1900/2,FS2700/2
HKC-55EB w/FSK420/FSK250/FSK670
OS 400 EQ-Set
OF 1010
OF 1400
OF 2200 + access set
MFK 700 EQ-Set
LR 32-SYS
Jigsaw Trion PS 300
Jigsaw Carvex PS 420 EBQ-Plus  + Access. Kit
Planer HL850 E-F-Plus
Domino DF500 Q-set w/(2) Beech Tenon assortment sets
Rotex RO 150
ETS 150/3 EQ-Plus
LS-130 EQ-Plus
DTS 400 REQ-Plus
DX 93 E
Festool Banner, T-shirt, Caps (2)

I also buy Lie-Nielsen, Powermatic, Woodriver, Pfiel, Bessey, Delta, Milwaukee, Apollo because they suit my needs and I can afford them.

If something breaks, I fix it myself. If it breaks again, I change to a different model or brands.

Why in the world anybody that depends on their tools for a living would buy a $1500 mitersaw when they have a perfectly good $350 mitersaw they have been using dependably for 20 years doesn't make sense. Don't drink the green cool-aid, and make a good business decision and take the $1500 and buy two $350 mitersaws and $300 worth of blades and put the balance in savings in a bank account.  If the $1500 saw does something that the $350 can't and it will save you in labor then figure out your return on investment and how long it will take to pay it off. If it pays for itself in 1 year, then so what if it craps out after a year. Buy another, because it should be able to pay for itself in a year as well. It is just a *** tool. It is the price of being in business.

Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it will be perfect and flawless, if it did then Ferrari/Royal Royce/Bentley would not need to offer any warranty on their cars because heaven forbid you spend a half million dollars on a car and have something break. For a half a million dollars it should run for 20 years without anything ever breaking down..

 [cool] 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 06:09 PM by RobWoodCutter »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2017, 06:09 PM »
Peter brings up a good point. It's always a mystery how many of those who have criticisms about specific tools have used them or are merely reiterating what someone else has told them. I would hope the criticisms are generated from use of the tool. If they are merely passed along by word of mouth, the failures and bad points about tools are magnified beyond their importance.
Randy

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3477
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2017, 06:15 PM »

Festool worried too much about being one of the lightest miters saws on the market.



Actually that’s the reason I bought my Kapex...getting too old to move my 70# Milwaukee slider around.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2017, 06:18 PM »
Steven,  have you used a Kapex?

Peter

I’ve had one chance to use one for a project in a night class at a local college.  The Kapex does make it easier to set-up angles over my Dewalt. I had to buy a separate digital protractor to set accurate 30 degree cuts on my Dewalt.  The dust collection is better on the Kapex.  The lasers are more accurate.  The laser on the Dewalt is uselsss after calibration.

With some add-on’s from Tenryu, Woodpeckers, Infinity Tools, and Incra, I can make the Dewalt cut as accurately as the Kapex with $400 worth add-on’s.

At $1200 Canadian.  I might have given the Kapex a look.  At $2000 dollars, I’d rather put that money into a track saw or a Domino. 





 

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2017, 06:23 PM »
...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted.

They're their reliability is one aspect of "design".
I intentionally opened the question with... "Ignoring smoking motors..." , which I have now bolded and underlined.

Since you're opining, I will respond in kind...


I am not the biggest fan of a Kapex. But then I do not use a chop saw nor a mitre saw much (ever), and I would therefore not listen to my input on the subject of them.

However as far as design goes in terms of ergonomics and function, I do not see circles being run around it.
(Much in the same way that a running model-T ford which runs, is not therefore superior to any modern car)

I still see the Kapex as a "platinum standard". But it would be nice if there was a motor upgrade option for non smokers.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2017, 06:48 PM »
...
Kapex was supposed to be the platinum standard in Miter Saws but it’s been anything but.  A $500 Bosch and Dewalt run circles around a $2000 dollar Festool miter saw. 
...

Ignoring smoking motors...
In what other ways do the Bosch and deWalt run circles around the Kapex?

Their reliable.  You know they’re going to work when you need them too.  Kapex has a better design.  That’s completely irrelevant if the saws have such a poor reliability and can’t be trusted.

They're their reliability is one aspect of "design".
I intentionally opened the question with... "Ignoring smoking motors..." , which I have now bolded and underlined.

Since you're opining, I will respond in kind...


I am not the biggest fan of a Kapex. But then I do not use a chop saw nor a mitre saw much (ever), and I would therefore not listen to my input on the subject of them.

However as far as design goes in terms of ergonomics and function, I do not see circles being run around it.
(Much in the same way that a running model-T ford which runs, is not therefore superior to any modern car)

I still see the Kapex as a "platinum standard". But it would be nice if there was a motor upgrade option for non smokers.

The most important feature of any tool is reliability.  Your tool can spin straw into gold; it doesn’t matter if your tool is smoking and blowing up in your face in a short period of time.

It’s even worse when a company won’t step up and take care of a client who dropped $2k on a faulty product.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7638
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2017, 07:26 PM »
Here it goes again ... brand loyalty = blindness, etc, etc, etc.

NO IT DOESN'T.

Being loyal to a brand can simply mean that the brand generally meets a number of your product buying objectives and that you have a default preference ... using the word "blindness" is quite frankly infuriating and by that you are effectively calling brand loyal people stupid and that is very insulting.

If prior to buying a particular thing you are aware of brand specific attributes that have value to you your are showing signs of brand loyalty, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. If admitting this is too painful, maybe you can classify yourself as "brand aware" to limit the excruciating pain of being wrong [big grin]

As for the other rubbish about the system being no more than a "buying trap" ... get real, the tools and accessories have been engineered to work together and yes, the accessories and consumables are expensive ... all of the prices are published, it's not a "trap". Buying a tool and completely ignoring the price of accessories and consumables and complaining about it afterwards doesn't make you look like the sharpest tool in the shed!

Offline Zebt

  • Posts: 53
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2017, 10:51 PM »
Thought I'd drop my post from the 'I am done' thread here as it is all related.


Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day :)

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 16
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2017, 11:42 PM »
Here it goes again ... brand loyalty = blindness, etc, etc, etc.

NO IT DOESN'T.

Being loyal to a brand can simply mean that the brand generally meets a number of your product buying objectives and that you have a default preference ... using the word "blindness" is quite frankly infuriating and by that you are effectively calling brand loyal people stupid and that is very insulting.

If prior to buying a particular thing you are aware of brand specific attributes that have value to you your are showing signs of brand loyalty, whether you are prepared to admit it or not. If admitting this is too painful, maybe you can classify yourself as "brand aware" to limit the excruciating pain of being wrong [big grin]

As for the other rubbish about the system being no more than a "buying trap" ... get real, the tools and accessories have been engineered to work together and yes, the accessories and consumables are expensive ... all of the prices are published, it's not a "trap". Buying a tool and completely ignoring the price of accessories and consumables and complaining about it afterwards doesn't make you look like the sharpest tool in the shed!
I guess it boils down to having a different definition of loyalty. I hope I didn't insult anyone, I certainly didn't mean to.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 3477
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2017, 11:46 PM »
I hope I didn't insult anyone, I certainly didn't mean to.

Rest assured...it’ll take more than that to get the hornets 🐝 on this website to get disturbed.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1723
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #111 on: October 18, 2017, 12:12 AM »
Who really cares whether Festool promotes brand loyalty? Festool tools will sell if they continue to produce high quality, high performing tools with a great warranty and great service. If they don't do that customers will move away from buying their tools and they will deserve what they get. I think that consumers, especially tradesman, are smarter than to buy tools just to complete a set or develop a system. Their system is what works for them because they have to constantly produce things and must do that the best way possible. For me (really I'm speaking about me only), as a home wood shop user, it isn't as important to me to be as efficient as possible since my satisfaction comes from the work I'm doing to complete something, the success, the quality, and beauty of the final product, whether it's a shop cabinet or furniture. So, brand loyalty isn't really an issue. People will buy the tools that work and perform the best for them.
Randy

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #112 on: October 18, 2017, 01:55 AM »
Thought I'd drop my post from the 'I am done' thread here as it is all related.


Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day :)

I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

Offline Kev

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2017, 03:00 AM »
I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

I'm lacking any decent brands in indigo and violet ... I certainly have all the other colours well covered, with at least 6 brands of green and four in blue - just off the top of my head.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2017, 09:14 AM »
I agree.

My home shop is a rainbow.  I have Makita, Dewalt, Milwaukee, Kreg, Woodpeckers, JessEm, Festool, Bosch, ect.  I’ll be adding more Festool, Mirka, Incra, Mafell and other brands to that list.

It’s not about having the best of the best.  It’s about having the best tool for job at a price I can afford. 

Often great tool at 1/2 of 1/3 the price of the best of the best can do the job just as well as the platinum standard tool offen at the expense of some speed and efficiency. 

If every tool purchase was always about having the best of the best and nothing less I’d have shop full of pretty pristine tools that never get used because I wouldn’t have any money left over for any projects.

I'm lacking any decent brands in indigo and violet ... I certainly have all the other colours well covered, with at least 6 brands of green and four in blue - just off the top of my head.

It’s sad when a lot of contractors fix their 3-year old Kapex’s by going to Amazon and buying the well reviewed Bosch miter saw.  They get 10-12 years out of the Bosch that performs 90% as well as the Kapex.


Online Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2017, 10:06 AM »
Just for clarity what is that Bosch saw they are purchasing?

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Online Oldwood

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2017, 10:13 AM »
So when I said brand loyalty I should have said image or the like. I think Festool sells the image of a quality premium tool with a price that reflects that. I think that image has been tarnished by some of the issues mentioned in this thread and by the lack of action or even evidence of concern by Festool on some of these issues. I think that if they had just said ya the 2 cords is a bone head move and switched to one it would have gone a long way to preserving the image of a premium tool manufacturer.

The clear splinter strips just don't work well for some of us and it would be nice if they would recognize that and offer the old one as an option instead of having us buy Makita strips.

Some of this of course is just minor but when you position yourself a a quality premium tool part of that has got to be longevity. I buy tools to make a living and I need to know if I pay for a quality tool it will last. Because of the way the Kapex issue has been handled or not handled I am not that confident the extra cost will buy me a tool that will last.

Of course Festool is a company that needs to show a profit and they will do what they think is the best thing to do for the company.

And for the brand loyalty is blindness posts ............I agree  [cool]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #117 on: October 18, 2017, 10:42 AM »
Just for clarity what is that Bosch saw they are purchasing?

Peter


Online Peter Halle

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #118 on: October 18, 2017, 10:54 AM »
I have to disagree with the comment that contractors are getting 10 to 12 years out of the Bosch Glide saw - that isn't accurate at this point.  It hasn't been out for ten to twelve years yet.  Released in 2010.

Is the Kapex, and perceptions about the Kapex an issue for Festool?  Yep in my opinion.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2017, 12:19 PM »
I have to disagree with the comment that contractors are getting 10 to 12 years out of the Bosch Glide saw - that isn't accurate at this point.  It hasn't been out for ten to twelve years yet.  Released in 2010.

Is the Kapex, and perceptions about the Kapex an issue for Festool?  Yep in my opinion.

Peter

You’re paying a huge premium on the Kapex for the Festool logo.  With a more reliable motor it’s a good saw.  It’s not worth $2000 Candaian to buy one.  I’d that put that money into a high end table saw or a track saw before spending that much miter saw.

At $1000 dollars - $1200 dollars the Kapex would sell more units.  At $2000 it has a huge perception hill to climb in the miter saw market.

The Kapex’s real target audience is trim installers and finishers working in people’s homes.  Most Fine Furnitue and home shop enthusiast are probably not gong to see the upshot of spending a lot of money to but the Kapex.  We have too alternatives to do the same cuts on alternative tools in a shop.

I might average 4-8 bevel cuts in a furnite project.  I have the time to adjust and fiddle around a little bit.  Someone working on a tight deadline with 80 - a couple of hundred bevel cuts to do on a house will have greater appreciation of the Kapex.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:29 PM by Steven Owen »

Offline petar73

  • Posts: 3
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #120 on: October 18, 2017, 05:03 PM »
Hi everyone, still new here but I would like to share a few words as well (English is not my first language so bare that in mind). I have Kapex 120 (240V) and touch wood it has been all good so far and I had to use colleague’s bosch glide saw for a couple of weeks and I wasn’t impressed with it. It was accurate in spite of the fence been bowed, it is very heavy – took two of as to load it and unload it and I have never got used with the bevel front controls for that time.  The build quality wasn’t very good and  I found it underpowered when we had to use it through extractor connected to 3kW transformer (the saw was 110V), it was better on its own without the extractor. I am not saying it is not a good saw, but here in Europe it cost nearly as much as the kapex  so for me the festool is the better saw. Having said that I cannot ignore festool’s salience about the Kapex motor problem so for some time now I second guess every festool purchase I have to make as I surely lost some trust in the company.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 192
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2017, 05:41 PM »
Saw that review (btw Bosch glide & Kapex) for the first time. Like most tool reviews, it tells little because the review was based on an half-an-hour use (or even less). You don't need to turn on the saw to know:

a) Kapex has the best dust extraction and b) its hold-down clamp is the best (and I still scratch my head why there are no copycats when they release new mitre saws).

I sold my Dewalt mitre saw (over 10 years old) after I bought the Kapex and so I expect the Kapex to run 10 years at least. If not, I have made a bad choice (and that wouldn't be my first one, after woodworking for close to 20 years now), and so be it. Of course, if that happened, I would not buy a Kapex as a replacement (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...).

With two years of Kapex in regular use (as a hobbyist, not as a production woodworker, mind you; I use my tablesaw 10 times more), I am sure it is meeting my needs in terns of accuracy and dust collection. I would not buy any other one out there, even though they are much cheaper. If money had been my primary concern, I would have kept my Dewalt ... and saved myself $1900(?).

The cloud of a motor melt-down has been with me since I joined this Forum and read about so many motor and customer service foul-up stories. Since I got all my Festool tools from Lee Valley, I feel a bit better knowing that if they have issues, I have a reliable vendor to fall back on. In fact, about 75% of all the power and hand tools in my shop came from Lee Valley, accounting for about 90% of the value of my holding. I am sure this factor is reflected in the Festool sales figure attributed to Lee Valley (there are three or four Festool vendors (including LV) in my city).

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 05:47 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2017, 08:58 PM »
Saw that review (btw Bosch glide & Kapex) for the first time. Like most tool reviews, it tells little because the review was based on an half-an-hour use (or even less). You don't need to turn on the saw to know:

a) Kapex has the best dust extraction and b) its hold-down clamp is the best (and I still scratch my head why there are no copycats when they release new mitre saws).

I sold my Dewalt mitre saw (over 10 years old) after I bought the Kapex and so I expect the Kapex to run 10 years at least. If not, I have made a bad choice (and that wouldn't be my first one, after woodworking for close to 20 years now), and so be it. Of course, if that happened, I would not buy a Kapex as a replacement (Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...).

With two years of Kapex in regular use (as a hobbyist, not as a production woodworker, mind you; I use my tablesaw 10 times more), I am sure it is meeting my needs in terns of accuracy and dust collection. I would not buy any other one out there, even though they are much cheaper. If money had been my primary concern, I would have kept my Dewalt ... and saved myself $1900(?).

The cloud of a motor melt-down has been with me since I joined this Forum and read about so many motor and customer service foul-up stories. Since I got all my Festool tools from Lee Valley, I feel a bit better knowing that if they have issues, I have a reliable vendor to fall back on. In fact, about 75% of all the power and hand tools in my shop came from Lee Valley, accounting for about 90% of the value of my holding. I am sure this factor is reflected in the Festool sales figure attributed to Lee Valley (there are three or four Festool vendors (including LV) in my city).

That’s not True

The WoodWhisper and Dan Pattison are probably the two most objective reviewers around. They both log tons of hours working on these tools.  They make actual projects with the tools they review.  They’re both practical Wood workers who think about how the Tools fit within the projects.

They use a lot of Festool and other brands. They don’t bias their reviews.  They tell you what you need for a project and why tool x,y,z is a good fit.

A lot brand loyalist will take issue with their reviews because they don’f always gush over high end toys.

Most of Festool’s problems can be solved by simply helping out the clients with premature motor failures on the Kapex.  They should be sending out replacement motors to those clients.  Anyone buying a Kapex has money to burn.  They’re the kind of people that will spend 10-15 K on Festool.  Kapex buyers are not your average tool consumer to begin with. 

Offline ChuckM

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2017, 09:35 PM »
 "...They both log tons of hours working on these tools."

My take is this: In the video, the Bosch saw was not even bolted down and I could only assume that the saw was not the regular saw in use in his shop. He checked the squareness with a combo square; I checked mine with the four-cut method: . It is day and night in terms of accuracy.

You may have info. outside the video that says the review was done after tons of hours of use; but that was outside my knowledge, if any. My Kapex is bolted down because it is a regular shop saw for me.

I have never used that Bosch saw and so I could only confine my comments (and I did) to my Kapex that is now two years old. I have used all the features on the Kapex except the dado cut which is handled by my tablesaw by default.

Now, is it money to burn? It's a matter of perspective. People who are not woodworkers think we woodworkers all are burning money. I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.

So I stand by my comments that the review as given in the video has told me little. By the way, as I said in my comment about brand loyalty, I am only loyal to my money. I used the Kapex on and off (mainly for stock prep.) at a local vendor during a one-year period before I bought mine. I liked the accuracy, dust collection, ease of setting the saw, etc. before burning my money.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:40 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2017, 10:38 PM »
"...They both log tons of hours working on these tools."

My take is this: In the video, the Bosch saw was not even bolted down and I could only assume that the saw was not the regular saw in use in his shop. He checked the squareness with a combo square; I checked mine with the four-cut method: . It is day and night in terms of accuracy.

You may have info. outside the video that says the review was done after tons of hours of use; but that was outside my knowledge, if any. My Kapex is bolted down because it is a regular shop saw for me.

I have never used that Bosch saw and so I could only confine my comments (and I did) to my Kapex that is now two years old. I have used all the features on the Kapex except the dado cut which is handled by my tablesaw by default.

Now, is it money to burn? It's a matter of perspective. People who are not woodworkers think we woodworkers all are burning money. I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.

So I stand by my comments that the review as given in the video has told me little. By the way, as I said in my comment about brand loyalty, I am only loyal to my money. I used the Kapex on and off (mainly for stock prep.) at a local vendor during a one-year period before I bought mine. I liked the accuracy, dust collection, ease of setting the saw, etc. before burning my money.

That’s his initial take.  You have to watch the live shows the WoodWhisper does on Friday’s.  He updates his reviews and shows how he has used the tools on real projects. You have to watch more of the videos and you’ll see the Bosch Miter Saw being used on those projects. 

I bought my Dewalt 782 4 years ago before Stanley messed-up the design to shed weight.  I have one of the better Dewalt saws.  I wouldn’t reccomend their newer models.  The cheap plastic parts impact accuracy of the sliders on the 2016 - 2017 models.


 

Online Cheese

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2017, 11:01 PM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2017, 12:13 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

Online tjbnwi

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2017, 12:15 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 126
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2017, 01:13 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Search this forum and any other wood working forum on the web.  There numerous Kapex owners upset over premature failed units.

The Bosch would not be my first choice to compare against the Kapex.  The Dewalt DW 780, the DW 717 and the Emerson made Ridgid MS255SR would be the 3 miter saws that I would compare with the Kapex. 

The DW 780, MS255SR, and the DW 717 all have excellent dust collection, superb accuracy, smooth accurate sliders, and clean cutting performance good enough for most wood working tasks.  None of them will beat a Kapex but they’re all solid performers in their own right.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2017, 02:23 AM »

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

You are clearly an absolute expert on the Kapex. Please tell me the number of people that have had a problem with their Kapex motor. To make it easier for you, because it would be unfair to ask you to provide a figure for the whole world, just limit it to two countries - The United States and Canada. Also, to make it easier for you, please round the numbers up or down (you can choose but we all know which way you will go) to the nearest 10.

BTW

The Kapex was my first Festool purchase. I spent several weeks looking at the market and narrowed it down to the Bosch Glide and the Kapex. The Kapex won by miles.


You said " Anyone buying a Kapex has money to burn.  They’re the kind of people that will spend 10-15 K on Festool. "

Please do not make assumptions about me or anyone else. Certainly do not publish those assumptions. Stick to the facts.

So, to the nearest 10 provide the figures for US and CA that you are basing your Kapex views upon.

Peter

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3914
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2017, 07:30 AM »
...

What motor issue?

Tom

I like your humour...

To the rest...
In any case, why do 1/2 the threads disappear into the black hole of "Kapex"?
The subject of the thread seems to have gotten moved off course.

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5167
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I have to agree with ChuckM, that this video review is not a very compelling reason to purchase the Bosch saw. I view it as a rather half-baked review.

From the lack of it being bolted to the MFT, to the video of it spewing dust all over the place, to its 75# of weight, there’s nothing compelling here to make me to want to purchase this saw.  It’s also interesting to note that the first thing he changed out was to spend $200 for a replacement blade. 

His justification to purchase this saw was:
It is cheap...
I only cut 90 degree angles...
I never move the saw...

How does that contrast to the typical miter saw user?  Like I said, a half-baked review.  I expect better from him.

Until Festool does something to help the Kapex customers with failed motors there’s no reason to consider the Kapex with all of it’s problems.  The Kapex is a roll the dice and huge gamble until Festool effectively and honestly address the issues with the motor.

What motor issue?

Tom

Search this forum and any other wood working forum on the web.  There numerous Kapex owners upset over premature failed units.

The Bosch would not be my first choice to compare against the Kapex.  The Dewalt DW 780, the DW 717 and the Emerson made Ridgid MS255SR would be the 3 miter saws that I would compare with the Kapex. 

The DW 780, MS255SR, and the DW 717 all have excellent dust collection, superb accuracy, smooth accurate sliders, and clean cutting performance good enough for most wood working tasks.  None of them will beat a Kapex but they’re all solid performers in their own right.

What percentage of units produced/sold is the failure rate?

The only motor failures I've experienced is 1 DeWalt miter saw, 1 Bosch miter saw, 2 Bosch reciprocating saws, 1 Bosch Bulldog hammer drill. All within the first 3 years of ownership.

2 Kapex (I'm more perplexed by the fact it is not clear what the plural of Kapex is), no motor issues.

Festool electrical issues- 1 Vecturo (Plug-It pin broke), 1 RAS cord.

I've read about the complaints. I'll ask again, on FOG alone what is the percentage of failures to those who own the Kapex?

I'll go the the Bosch and DeWalt owners groups and bash their motors now......

Tom




Offline antss

  • Posts: 1301
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2017, 09:08 AM »

Quote
I think those who spend $10,000 on a ring burning money, too.


Interesting that this was brought up.

 That is another business run by genius marketers. One where emotion and non rational consumer behavior play a huge part in the cost / ownership / value  proposition.

Online Cochese

  • Posts: 238
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2017, 09:39 AM »
Way too much emotion instilled into purchases of non-sentient things. I've seen it with computer processors, gaming systems, vehicles (trucks in particular in the US). I used to do it, so I understand it to only a small degree these days.

I like my Hitachi, but I am by no means married to it. It has a funky design which makes designing dust collection (which it is not very good at) difficult in a small space. I don;t remember the exact price I paid but it was under $500. I think I'd like a different saw at this point, but not sure the Bosch is much of an upgrade, which leaves the Makita or the Kapex. One is around $500. The other is around $1500, and has a specter of a possible motor issue about it.

I think for me to put real effort into choosing the Kapex two things would have to happen. The first is for Festool to either acknowledge there's an issue and say a redesign is being researched or stand behind the warranty even more by going to five years. With five years, I don't mind sending it in if it breaks during that period, but would only have to look at selling/buying new on a five year cycle instead of a three year one, for peace of mind. The other is I think the saw is overpriced by roughly $300. The only real thing it brings to the market over and above everyone else is dust collection at this point, and I'd trade the 10 pounds the Makita has for almost $1000 in my checking account.

It is going to be real interesting when the patents on the Domino expire. You know there will be other versions on the market almost immediately, and Festool is going to have to do even more to compete. I think extending the warranties is one of the ways they can do this, which lines up to my above comment. Perhaps the yearly increase needs to be looked at as well, even if only in a marketing standpoint.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: What can Festool do to regain brand loyalty
« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2017, 10:07 AM »
Thread locked due to   [dead horse]   [dead horse]  and the fact that it is becoming more of a personal match. It has also become another Kapex debate topic which is related to the original topic but will go no where. We have plenty of Kapex issue topics on the forum. Every topic does not need to be made into another one.


Seth