Author Topic: When we have many domino to cope with at once  (Read 1467 times)

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Offline CNX

  • Posts: 78
When we have many domino to cope with at once
« on: October 04, 2018, 01:54 PM »
Hi all,

In the other day, I built a simple shoe lack with five horizontal boards (shelves). Each board had three dominos at each side.
When I attached them to the first side board, it had no drama. I just glued dominos to the shelves and push them to the side board one-by-one.   

But, when I finished with all five shelves, glued the dominos to the other end of the shelves, and tried to put the second side board, I had a problem to put all 15 (5 boards x 3 dominos) into the side board at once. I did similar things in the past but this time I might have carelessly put few of the dominos crooked. Or maybe some of the dominos were too tight (dryfit went well, though). I was racing against the yellow glue and finally managed to put all them in but it was certainly not a pleasant experience.

So, I want to know how would you do it. By the way, I half anticipated it and oven-heated the dominos before I used them. So they were not too tight. I can think of the following options;

1) 18 dominos at once should be not a problem. I was not just careful or experienced enough. Do it again.
2) Just don't use yellow glue. PVA gives you much more time
3) 18 dominos are too many. I would use them only for the top and bottom shelves and rests would sit on dados.
4) 18 dominos are too many. I would reduce the number of dominos
5) Other suggestions?

I would love to hear from you on this matter!

thanks,

Susumu

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Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 334
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2018, 02:19 PM »
Titebond extend helps.
https://www.rockler.com/adhesives/wood-glue/titebond174-and-titebond174-ii-extend-wood-glues-titebond-extend-wood-glue

Other than that I would glue all dominoes into both gables or both ends of the shelves whichever has the all tight mortises, then make sure you tap the dominoes in all the way. Then turn your attention to gluing the other side of the glue up.

I hope that make sense?
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1722
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2018, 04:06 PM »
Lee Valley also has a "Cabinetmaker's Glue" which gives 15-20 minutes open time, but also needs more time to fully cure.  I use it for complicated glue-ups.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=45104&cat=1,110,42965,45104

Oldwood's advice is spot on.  Just to clarify a bit, make the mortises for one side of the joint tight, and leave the other side slightly wide.  This will allow some wiggle room, which can get you out of a jam, but it also means you need to closely inspect and perhaps tap a bit to get the glue up in to desired position.

Your problem was probably caused by a crooked fit of a domino.  If the dry fit worked, then the mortises are good, but you may have gotten a tenon off a bit.  Oldwood is right, tap the Dominos home gently with a mallet.  The sound changes dramatically when the Domino in fully seated.

And, no 18 dominos is not to many.

Offline John Beauchamp

  • Posts: 103
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2018, 05:15 PM »
I use alum. angle bent into a 90 To hold the shelves perpendicular to the first upright after gluing. This gives some rigidity and keeps things fairly square and rigid. Now using just 2 dominoes per shelf dry fit the other end loosely. Then cut a scrap board (3/4 ply works well)  to fit between each shelf at the end you're now preparing to glue. Put a clamp on the front and back from the top to the bottom holding all the shelves together with the blocks between the shelves and lined up with the holes. Now glue your dominoes in and put the other side on. It may not fit perfectly but it should be real close and you should be able to bump things into alignment easily. If your holes  line up this works if they don't it will depend on how far off they are.     
TS55REQ, MFT/3, RO90, CT36, DF500

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 616
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2018, 05:32 PM »
Remember open time and assembly/working time are not the same thing.

Offline CNX

  • Posts: 78
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2018, 08:25 PM »
ohhh, I see. What Oldwood said makes sense. For the shelf-type construction, dominos go to the end-grain (the two ends of the shelves) and the faces of the boards. For some reason, dominos are much tighter in the faces of the boards. Probably the fibers perpendicular to the domino holes catch the dominos. I should have glued the dominos to the side boards (gables?) first and use a mullet to make sure the complete fits.

In this way, the final assembly is to insert those dominos (15 of them) to the end-grains of the shelves, which would be much easier.

Thank you for the tip!

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5236
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2018, 09:39 AM »
Be sure to mark which faces are the domino face. make your cuts then always dry fit then glue the pieces together

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 334
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2018, 10:09 AM »
ohhh, I see. What Oldwood said makes sense. For the shelf-type construction, dominos go to the end-grain (the two ends of the shelves) and the faces of the boards. For some reason, dominos are much tighter in the faces of the boards. Probably the fibers perpendicular to the domino holes catch the dominos. I should have glued the dominos to the side boards (gables?) first and use a mullet to make sure the complete fits.

In this way, the final assembly is to insert those dominos (15 of them) to the end-grains of the shelves, which would be much easier.

Thank you for the tip!

I would make sure to have good solid flat backing on the gables when tapping the Dominoes in to insure you don't get a bulge on the back side. Like Jesse Cloud clarified cut the gable with the narrow setting and the shelves with wider setting to give some adjustment during assembly. I sometimes have one tight cut on each shelf to align but never all tight on both. sides.

As Chuck says open time and assembly time are not the same. The dominoes are compressed with a pinch roller and when the water in the glue hits them they start to swell so it is a good idea to get them into their final position as soon as possible after insertion.

I read and article once that described the infernal rush to glue up [big grin] It is best to take a little more time before gluing to make sure you have everything you need to complete the glue up and plan the clamping procedure.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Online Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 536
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2018, 10:25 AM »
What Oldwood said and make the gravity work for you.
Mario

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2368
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2018, 12:58 PM »
Yes Oldwood suggestions are good.  I have built many projects with many dominos.  I try to plan out my glue ups to do it in stages and use strategies like tight fit on one side of the joint and loose fit on the mating face.  Think of it as mortise and tenon joinery where you are pre gluing the tenons in place.  In large assemblies I also use a chisel to bevel the ends of the dominos to help with the assembly alignment.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 616
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2018, 04:15 PM »
Snip.

In this way, the final assembly is to insert those dominos (15 of them) to the end-grains of the shelves, which would be much easier.


In my last large carcass construction (a cabinet with top. bottom, a middle shelf, and a divider; about 30 dominoes), I actually did the glue-up in an opposite way:

1) I glued the dominoes into all the endgrains first (top, bottom and middle shelf) and let the glue cure. In essence, they became super large tenons!
2) Then I applied glue into the mortises of the first side, but not the dominoes (not yet!, because they expanded upon contact with glue)
3) I aligned the first mating side to the dominoes, and put glue on the dominoes as soon as I was ready to push or tap the side into the dominoes.
4) Repeat the same for the other side (after putting the back panel in place (grooves around the cabinet)).

I used white glue that has 5-minute open time (because I ran out of Lee Valley glue (my go-to glue) which I think has 10 - 20 minutes of open time). There was no reason why I would put glue into the mortises and then let it sit there doing nothing for more than 5 minutes!

The whole glue-up took half an hour to 45 mins, including checking and squaring up the case.

The above steps are similar to how you would glue up a mortise & tenon joint.

If working time is critical, I would use old brown glue. No matter what you use, dry-fitting is indispensable. The tricky part is to know how to correct a large clamped carcass that is not square. A square, out of wind cabinet pays off when you do the doors.



« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:05 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 708
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 09:09 AM »
@ChuckM

That's a lovely cabinet!  I see that there are grooves in the top and bottom pieces.  What are the grooves for?

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 708
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 09:14 AM »
A best practice (for me) that I hope to remember and make a habit of is to tap the Dominos into the thicker material or end grain pieces first.  Sometimes I end up with a blowout while trying to straighten the domino, and it kind of ruins any peaceful feelings I had during assembly.

Or, maybe I'll get smarter and figure a way to cut one side deeper, one side shallower, if possible.

Ideally, there would be "Domino Pressing Pliers" that allowed you to push those things in straight while providing back support on the material.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3533
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 12:04 PM »
To make it easier to assemble pieces with Dominoes I usually only make one pair of holes at the narrow setting (to align the ends of mating parts) and the rest of the holes at the medium setting.

I bevel both ends of Dominos going into narrow mortises using a belt sander or the RAS115 (or a rasp). Once I used the ETS125 bevel a bunch of Dominos and ruined the pad. I also bevel one of the loose mortise Dominos (the end that is outboard). It takes more time to get ready but makes solo assembly much easier.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 616
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 12:27 PM »
@ChuckM

That's a lovely cabinet!  I see that there are grooves in the top and bottom pieces.  What are the grooves for?

Thanks for the remark.

They are for a pair of sliding doors; the credenza is to stand on a foot rest when completed.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4940
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2018, 12:29 PM »
My usual drill is to machine all the holes on one board to the smallest setting, and on the mating board, the center hole is also at the smallest setting while the remainder of the holes are 1-step larger to ease assembly.

At assembly time, I glue each of the Dominos into it's small hole and let this set-up for a couple of hours. Then I return and swab all the oversized holes with glue, spread glue on the mating edges and then lastly swab the protruding Dominos themselves.  Keeping a moist wiping cloth at the ready.

This assembly method may take more time but but it's a lot less frenetic.  [smile]

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 976
Re: When we have many domino to cope with at once
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2018, 02:58 AM »
A short stay in the microwave (or a longer one in an oven, for higher quantities) can make dominos a little bit thinner, so they go in easier.