Author Topic: Which 8020 extrusion to use?  (Read 11484 times)

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Online rnt80

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    • Agape Wood Design
Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« on: January 26, 2009, 11:42 PM »
I looked at some of the old threads on 8020 extrusions but didn't have much like finding anything specific.  I'm planning on building my own mft table and am planning on going with 8020 extrusions.   For those of you that have an mft, or have built your own, which extrusion would you suggest?
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
www.agapewooddesign.com

Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 12:55 AM »
If you are not planning on using the Festool extrusions why use extrusions at all? The 8020 extrusions are not compatable with the guide rail hinge things and if you are not going to use those there isnt much need for the extrusions. If you have the bench top apron at the edge of the table then you can just clamp directly to it if you need to clamp something on edge. With quick grip clamps its faster than clamping with the festool clamps on the extrusions anyway. To me the most useful thing about the MFT's are the grid of holes so you can clamp down anywhere on the bench.

Eiji

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 09:39 AM »
I built my own MFT table and it is great - for my needs. It cost roughly $175 but I use it mainly for clamping to route, sand, etc. I use the saw track across a different means. If interested I can send pics - if I can figure out how to do it on this forum.
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 09:47 AM »
If you are not planning on using the Festool extrusions why use extrusions at all? The 8020 extrusions are not compatable with the guide rail hinge things and if you are not going to use those there isnt much need for the extrusions. If you have the bench top apron at the edge of the table then you can just clamp directly to it if you need to clamp something on edge. With quick grip clamps its faster than clamping with the festool clamps on the extrusions anyway. To me the most useful thing about the MFT's are the grid of holes so you can clamp down anywhere on the bench.

Eiji

Elji - I just saw your note - that's exactly my operation. I also have on order the supports for the guide rail saw track that I am using separately. My reason for the extrusion use is that the legs fold up like card table legs (clockwise not from each end) although the weight could be a concern. MFT is 50 - 60 lbs per catalog - I will weigh this thing today.
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 10:43 AM »
It has been called to my attention that 8020 products have been considered with underwhelming results. After a thread search, I can see a couple of reasons...

The paper catalog is 1,161 pages long and can be pretty daunting. Paper however is easier to find and compare alternatives than online.

Some considered 8020 scrap sales. Like any remnant sale, they are limited and probably not productive - my experience.

Products are offered in series - 10 series, 20, 30...  IMHO some might have selected wrong series for extrusion, size, weight, and or price.

Their dealers vary greatly - I have two in my backyard and one has a minimum, other doesn't but isn't interested in tiny orders.. Dealer 800 miles away is family run, woman-minority owned. Wife is CEO and husband and adult sons and daughters knock themsleves out providing tech assistance and no minimum. Last night, coincidentally, I ordered two brackets.

Someone cited problem needing milling as prohibitive. They provide listed milling charges per applicable part. The milling charges for my MFS total $20. Results to be seen next week.

Compatibility - Festool is my preferred choice, but Ftl can't be everything to everyone. Sometimes, usually cost, us non journeymen need to make an alternative.

I absolutely love my copied MFT table (36" x 36") and make no pretense of having designed it; with the almost FT-l matching top holes for clamping. My guide rails saw track work on top of saw horses with my home made machined aluminum support brackets, and  Ftl extrusions and support brackets on order as a process improvement. The legs fold up like a card table and it can go places, but is admittedly a little heavy if it were to be used on a real job all day.

Thanks for looking,

Woodwreck
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline Qwas

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 10:46 AM »
I would use the 40-4080 series. The quick clamps fit in the groove on this size and these profiles are very strong, even if use their Lite series.

As for the rail clamps not fitting, who needs them? Drill a 20 mm hole into a piece of wood and use my Rail Dogs to guide the rail. It works better if you turn the hole into a slot, then it becomes real easy to move the rail.



Steve Adams  QwasProducts.com

Offline Qwas

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 10:59 AM »
It has been called to my attention that 8020 products have been considered with underwhelming results. After a thread search, I can see a couple of reasons...

The paper catalog is 1,161 pages long and can be pretty daunting. Paper however is easier to find and compare alternatives than online.

Some considered 8020 scrap sales. Like any remnant sale, they are limited and probably not productive - my experience.

Products are offered in series - 10 series, 20, 30...  IMHO some might have selected wrong series for extrusion, size, weight, and or price.

Their dealers vary greatly - I have two in my backyard and one has a minimum, other doesn't but isn't interested in tiny orders.. Dealer 800 miles away is family run, woman-minority owned. Wife is CEO and husband and adult sons and daughters knock themsleves out providing tech assistance and no minimum. Last night, coincidentally, I ordered two brackets.

Someone cited problem needing milling as prohibitive. They provide listed milling charges per applicable part. The milling charges for my MFS total $20. Results to be seen next week. ...


I buy my 8020 supplies off of eBay, http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale. No minimums and he sometimes has sales.  If you need something special that he doesn't have, send him an e-mail.  [smile]

The catalog can look overwhelming until you understand it. There are different series with the number giving you a hint to the size - 10 series is 1 inch, 20 series is 2 inches, 25 series is 25 mm or 1 inch, 40 series is 40 mm or 1.5 inches. Each series has the same basic profiles that have been scaled to their size. The catalog shows all the profiles and all the hardware for each size. Now that you understand this, the catalog becomes easy and small.  [smile]
Steve Adams  QwasProducts.com

Offline Charimon

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 01:35 PM »
Woodwreck,

I am enjoying your posts, and your creativity the only thing you are missing is posting PICS.

Craig
"The existence of the flame thrower proves that at one time, somewhere, somebody said, " You Know, There's a group of people over there that I'd like to set on fire right now but they're too far away."

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 05:27 PM »
Well Craig, thank you for the compliment and I am pleased to fetch the Brownie Box camera and here we go.

Attached are pics of my MFT. As in similar projects, there is no intent to clone or compete or fault Festool - simply to make a more affordable product for serious woodworkers, yet non-journeyman like me. My total cost was approximately $175 I believe, v. $500 plus for the real McCoy.  The important issue is usage requirements. I use the guide rails separately - another subject. and as mentioned in thread above, use the table for clamping and holding material for routing, sanding, and so forth.

The holes are 13/16",  a 64th or so off from the factory product, and 3 3/4" O.C. as on the Ftl. I do not use the table with dogs for precise angles as some have pointed out would be off target, on exact angles.

The thing is 36" square x 36" h. and as shown the legs fold for portability, like card table legs in rotating fashion rather than inward from  two ends. Moveable handles facilitae carrying (lugging  ;D ) 8020 extrusions are truly industrial grade so weight is a little more than what I planned on. It is satisfactory for short site visits, putting it away in the shop, etc. It would not however be too advisable for every day real site work, and certainly not for stairs. Note the respective sizes of the Ftl tables when comparing weights. It weighs 53# v. 42# for the Kapex table and up to 62# for the big one.

Two of the sides have open T-slots to accommodate Ftl clamps and other devices - I am in the process of revamping them. Notice the knobs, I can clamp boards vertically or clamp the guide rail supports to support the track across the top but that is in progress of revamping. Table top is 3/4" Fir CD sheathing varnished plywood sitting proud of the frame 1/4" to avoid blade hitting frame, identical to Ftl product.

I was just asked about strength of the top and how the legs hold together etc. In the pics of underneath the sides are bolted together at corners in 'L' brackets. The legs have swing brackets to fold up bolted into the side extrusions. The top sits inside frame on several clips shown in one of the pics - 2 per side. Top is firm for all sorts of work but could use a little strengthening if used to bang on like a 2 x 4 work bench - which it is not intended to be used for in the first place.

Future plans - I am fine tuning my separate infeed table that sends full sheets of material under the rail guides and have a couple of parts including the Festool track supports in the mail as we speak, shipped this morning. I will slightly improve the slots on the side of this MFT shortly but otherwise I am very happy with it except the weight, and can't do much about that.

If anyone gets serious about pursuing this, I will be happy to prepare a parts list of 8020 parts to build it with.

Thanks to all that promptly helped me retrieve my text and thanks to all for looking.

Woodwreck.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 09:16 PM by woodwreck »
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline neilc

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 08:14 PM »
Thanks for sharing the details on how you put the table together.

Question:  How steady is the top?  I don't see braces or anything to tie the legs to each other or the top, or are there other parts you use?

neil

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 09:18 PM »
See att and also 1st two pics in prior response.

WW
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline John Stevens

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 09:42 PM »
I buy my 8020 supplies off of eBay, http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale. No minimums and he sometimes has sales.


FWIW, I've also purchased there and have been very satisfied.

Regards,

John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
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Offline John Stevens

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 09:43 PM »
If you are not planning on using the Festool extrusions why use extrusions at all?

Agreed.  I own an MFT 800 and have built three large MFTs.  When I built my third left out the extrusions and haven't missed them.

Regards,

John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Online Don T

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 10:18 PM »
Russell there is a local company here in Phoenix that sells the 8020 competition brand it is call Fabricating Distributors Inc. and they are located at Sosssaman and Baseline.

Don
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit

Offline kfitzsimons

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2010, 10:48 AM »
I'm sure you all know that you can purchase replacement MFT tops already drilled. They're not that expensive.  I really like the 8020 version.  I might make my table saw outfeed table (fold down) out of 8020 and a MFT top. I think that would be a good combination and very useful.

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 11:09 AM »
Hmmmm - I don't disagree with your comment about purchased top, but most home made MFT's would tend to not match the size . As to the 8020 for a fold down, that would certainly be first class but seems to me to be drastic overkill. Compare the weight per foot and the over strengths etc. I made my similar support out of 1" square steel tube, custom welded at the local metal shop-supplier if necessary. Drilled and bolted by the WW is quite feasible.
Regards,

Woodwreck

Offline CList

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 11:36 PM »
FWIW, you can get find a subset of the 8020 stock at McMaster-Carr.

Go to www.mcmaster.com and search on "aluminum frame".

Anyone on this forum who doesn't know about  McMaster-Carr should. They are a great source for quirky nuts and bolts as well as raw materials like aluminum, plastic, steel, etc.
Tools are a bit over-priced as are some other items, but the selection alone makes it worth it.
I especially love them because for me, using their standard ground UPS shipping, I get stuff the next day. (...unlike, e.g. Woodpeck.com where I order something and it doesn't even SHIP for a work - those guys drive me bananas!)

Their prices on the 8020 stuff is high compared to the overstock sales on eBay, but they ship super-fast, and their shipping costs are rather low - so you might come out ahead if you just want a few small pieces. They also have everything available in 2', 4',6' and 8' pieces; no muss no fuss.


Funny, I've been lurking on these forums for a few weeks and was planning a sort of "introduction" post, and I guess this will be it! I just got a TS-75 + CT-33 a couple of weeks ago. I'm a hobbyist, but have overseen a couple of renovations in the past few years here in NYC (where I live), and I'm a very handy guy and have done a lot of different kinds of DIY things through out the years. I haven't had any space for any kind of shop (again, Manhattan... it's kinda rough!) and that's the only thing that's kept me from getting into woodworking and I resent the fact that I have to pay large sums of money to my carpenter friends to make me European-style (read: no fancy joinery) built-ins and cabinets that I'm sure I could make myself with the right tools and space and time... especially since I *enjoy* doing it myself and can find the time. The change came when my wife has just decided to open a retail store and the space she's renting is in a brownstone and includes a dusty, creepy, ill-lit, low-ceiling basement that she wants nothing to do with, so I've taken the liberty of commandeering the space as my new workshop, and with a 3 or 4 new florescent lights installed it's better - not good, but better! (I need to be careful not to make it too nice or she'll want it back!)

Annnyway.... this thread is appropriate since I am in the process of converting an old Ikea desk into a sort of cutting table based on the MFT idea. I've actually gone the opposite route from what Eiji et. al. have done: I'm making a table based around a DIY version of the guide-rail flip-up system and am not bothering with the holes (for now). I got some short (2') 8020 pieces for each side of my table to act as horizontal slides for my guide-rails. I used some MDF, some various sizes and shapes of aluminum (courtesy McMaster-Carr) and a some little nuts and bolts hardware and it's coming along way better than I expected and feels great (I've only put in about 2 hours on it and have only done one side - plan to finish tomorrow). I knew that if I got an MFT I'd want to install an Incra track and stop for the fence anyway, and I plan on eventually getting a router and LR-32 guide rail so I figured I get those things, and use them build this table and see how long it lasts me. I've already drilled a few random 3/4" holes in it to use for clamps in the MFT style, and I'm sure at some point I'll get a new top and route a grid in it (router will be my next Festool purchase).

I'll post pics soon.

To bring this all back home, I got the 1530 "Lite" extrusions (1.5" x 3.0") and the festool clamps DO fit in the slides, but there's a little slop. A slightly more narrow opening would be good. The 40mm extrusions are slightly larger (1.5" = ~36mm), BUT the slot size is an even 8mm which is slightly SMALLER - so I imagine they'd work better as far as fitting the clamps, but, being larger extrusions, they'd be more heavy, and more money, so I'd go with the 1.5" model since the slop in the clamp is a non-issue when it's tight and there's no way the clamp is going to pull out of the 1.5" extrusion's slot.

I'm curious if the 1"s extrusion - which has track opening size of 1/4" is too small - I keep forgetting to check the thickness of the clamps when I'm at "my shop". I have to say, the 1.5" tracks - even the Lite ones - seem too heavy for this application. They are obviously for industrial-type applications and they're super-beefy. I'd much prefer the 1" track if the clamps fit, though, as previously mentioned, I can't really see using the extrusions all that much with the festool clamps when you can just use the holes in the table, and I'd only be using them for my guide-rail system and maybe some other custom jigging-things.

Note that the MiniTec extrusions mentioned by someone in another thread looks really nice because it perfectly fits the 13mm nut heads on 8mm bolts. One thing that annoys me about the 8020 stuff is that standard bolts don't work in the track the way they do in, e.g. router-jig-style t-track- the bolt-heads spin in the 8020 track because of it's sloped profile. If MiniTec were more easily available (sold via online catalog one-off type sales like eBay and McMaster) I think I'd seriously consider them.

Cheers all,
Chris
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 11:38 PM by CList »

Offline CList

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 07:00 AM »
BTW, has anyone used "Ultra-Light" MDF - like TruPan - for an MFT top?
Can anyone comment on it vs. regular MDF in this application?

Cheers,
C

Online David Werkheiser

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2010, 03:24 PM »
Chris, your comment about nuts slipping inside the track on 8020 can be cured by using 5/16" carriage bolts sized to the length needed. The square nut under the cap slides well but doesn't protrude above the track. McMaster/Carr is a great place for hardware, and shipping is usually next day
David

Offline CList

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2010, 04:00 PM »
Chris, your comment about nuts slipping inside the track on 8020 can be cured by using 5/16" carriage bolts sized to the length needed. The square nut under the cap slides well but doesn't protrude above the track. McMaster/Carr is a great place for hardware, and shipping is usually next day
David

Ahhh, very nice - I think the hardware store around the corner should have some of those - thanks for the tip!

Cheers,
C

Offline John Stevens

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2010, 06:52 PM »
BTW, has anyone used "Ultra-Light" MDF - like TruPan - for an MFT top?
Can anyone comment on it vs. regular MDF in this application?

I've used Trupan Light, but not extra light.  I can only compare it to the MDF that Home Depot sells, and I like it a lot more.  Machines more easily, stays flatter over time if under the same conditions, seems stronger.  I find it worth the higher price if I'm making something I want to last.

Regards,

John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline terrystouf

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 11:20 PM »
Can anyone who has used the 8020 extrusions confirm if the L type Festool clamps will slide into the 10 series extrusions.Thanks...
"ITS LIKE PLANET OF THE APES,,,,,,,WITHOUT THE APES"

Offline Qwas

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 11:37 PM »
They will not fit. I've tried several times.  [smile] The clamps need a 5/16 inch slot such as the 15 or 40 series.
Steve Adams  QwasProducts.com

Offline woodwreck

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 12:00 AM »
Sorta - they do. They do not fit in the 1/4" peripheral slots as you correctly point out. But the do fit in the central 2 cells.

OPS - But then you have a point - they only fit in the end of the cell and can't slide the length.  Good point. Sorry 'bout that. Yea, they really need 5/16"

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 12:34 AM by woodwreck »
Regards,

Woodwreck

Online David Werkheiser

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Re: Which 8020 extrusion to use?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 08:03 AM »
The "Kreg" vice grip type of clamp works well with 8020. The cap bolt needs to be set deeper than when used with the Kreg plate, while its not the best fit in 8020, it has not buggered up the inside of the extrusion. I've been using these clamps for face frames for 1 1/2 years.
David