Author Topic: 12v Tools - or lack thereof  (Read 3393 times)

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Offline rniles

  • Posts: 4
12v Tools - or lack thereof
« on: August 11, 2018, 01:49 AM »
One of my most significant grievances with Festool's line is their seeming unwillingness to develop a proper 12v line of tools.  The CXS (and TXS) have found an appreciative and eager audience, both with consumers new to Festool as well as full-fledged Festoolians. 

Despite the success of other manufacturers' compact line of cordless tools, we have yet to see anything from Festool, despite the fact that they already have the battery and charger ready to go.  All we need are the tools and Festool will undoubtedly see a spike in sales.  Instead, it seems that - despite attempts by others as well as myself (I have email correspondence to prove it)- the company is choosing to ignore its customers.

An impact driver, an oscillating tool, perhaps even an orbital sander that uses the same delta sheets as the RO90...all these would be great in cordless form.  Not sure about many of you out there, but I'm afraid I've reached my end with this company.  I'll keep using my existing tools, but it's highly unlikely I'll purchase new ones. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 02:05 AM by rniles »
RO90, RO150, CXS, DWC18, DOMINO 700, TS55, CARVEX, PRO5, MIDI, MFT 1080

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Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 407
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2018, 02:19 AM »
You have a great option:
- using the tools they provide, if they make tools that are useful for you

Or
- find another company that does provide what you want

Or
- found a tool company and build the exact tools you think are missing on the market


I can never fathom how one could have grievances with a companies offerings. It is a free market, that is the great thing!
We are all in this forum, because for some of our use cases, Festool builds just the right tools.
For other of our use cases, we go elsewhere.

Rid yourself of your grievances and be happy with whatever tool you have in hand and go make something. [emoji41]

Offline LooseSox

  • Posts: 118
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2018, 05:11 AM »
Simple fact of the matter is that cordless tools aren't as popular in Europe as what they are in Australia or America, so expexting a European manufacturer to pander to the exact needs of a market on the other side of the planet to them seems a bit of a stretch.

Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2018, 06:55 AM »
LooseSox: I am sorry but I have to disagree.

I can't speak for all of Europe of course but in Sweden there is an overwhelming focus on cordless. I have a good report with a few bigger vendors (among them the two largest Festool pushers) and regardless of brand they all agree that corded products are on a steady decline. It did kick in a few years back but for the last couple of years I almost never run into a tradesman that is not going for cordless if it is an option. Corded is not out but it is sure down for a count.

If I look at the last say twenty to twentyfive tradesmen I have met on site they pretty much all are cordless with most of them hanging on to one or two corded tools that are in the back of the van/truck for some occasions.

On my current large project (sound studios, built from scratch with everything from walls to interiors) the only corded tool on site is the Festool CTL 26 Vac.  [eek]

Except for a few specialty corded tools I don't even shop for corded any longer.


I spoke to a German Festool rep for half an hour last year at a Demo day in Stockholm and he said that Festool has acknowledged that cordless is growing and that the demand (in Europe) exceeds their capabilities for providing and that they are working in a direction that they can manage which is increasing the 18V platform.

The CXS/TXS are the odd ones out and from what he would disclose (which was not too much of course) he did admit there are no particular plans on expanding the 12V line up though they don't rule anything out. From the conversation it was clear that they were focusing on the 18V line up.

For me that is not much of a loss - I love my CXS but I don't crave duplicates of the 18V line up in a smaller, weaker, package. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a few items for sure but I have more need of 18V tools that are capable.


I also think it is reasonable to have expectations from manufacturers about future products. The companies would be nothing if we weren't buying their products. If you really like what you get you want more and if the company does not provide you go elsewhere or wait.

Since the Festool 18V impact doesn't seem to come out this year (though there are still a few months left) I decided to go Hitachi for that great little triple hammer 18V with that sweet grip. It was sweet enough I decided to fill up a Systainer with some other 18V Hitachi tools so now there is a SYS T-Loc 3 with a Multicutter, Jigsaw, Drill and an Impact. On top of that there was a fire sale on the brushless grinder and a sabre saw so they ended up on the bag too. 

The point of that is that if a company bring out just ONE more tool that we pundits need/want they create an opportunity for a lot more sales of other tools too. Festool doesn't provide me with a 18V Multitool, fine, I get it from somewhere else. Oh, they have a few other goodies Festool doesn't  have. Fine, I get them too.

As a tool hoarder (and user) I have become label blind, I just want to trim down the amount of chargers on site...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:12 AM by Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits »
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 714
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2018, 07:17 AM »
I'd love to see a whole bunch of different Festool 12V tools!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 07:29 AM »
As for the initial post I am sure Festool is not at all dismissing their customers, on the contrary they have been very eager to hear tradesmen out on their products, wants and wishes. As for personal "open letters" or emails I think they get so many of them that they can't cope with them. And I am sure 99% are on topics already mentioned or covered by other feedback channels.

I sense a bit of frustration in your post but Festool isn't big enough and neither is it "small enough" to turn on a dime and churn out new products on the whims of the market.

It isn't the first time I have talked to Festool reps but the last conversation was a genuinely good experience with the Festool rep asking questions in our direction about our market and how / why we would use the tools. He took notes and was aware of the "high pressure" on Festool to release new products. He was open enough for me to realize I should not wait on Festool to provide me with some of the stuff I have been hoping for and the only disappointment so far with the conversation is that he very strongly hinted at a Festool 18V Impact for 2018. He even came over and poked me after the conversation was over when I was handling the Hitachi triple hammer in the shop and said "wait until next year".  This was back in late 2017 and since that Impact hasn't come out yet I did go with the Hitachi but I am quite sure I would get the Festool Impact on a pre order as soon as (or if...) they release one.

A proper chiseling hammer to go with it too, pretty please.

One thing that struck me during the conversation with the german rep is that the woodworking market in Europe is quite different if you look at the countries within Europe and compare. It gave me a better understanding of their predicament in providing gear for the market as a whole. Europe is a diverse community, not very homogenous at all when it comes to woodworking.

Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 166
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2018, 03:36 PM »
I would think the basic answer is a "why bother".  Festools core product is something few companies make (track saw).  From that they have the direct accessories/system tools too that.  Routers with accessories for using with tracks,  CMS for saws and routers,  vacuums system for managing dust on those tools, and then to the sanders which leverage the vacuum too.   Maybe Festool see's it differently, but that is the core system of tools and accessories.  Only a couple of companies offer any of those things and I don't think anyone has as complete of a setup there.  You focus on that core, where you can maintain good profit margins and do well.

Once you leave stuff that has no tie back to those items, it becomes harder to justify the resources to develop and market them, but also you hit a ton of competition.   Really when you get to stuff like drills, why would someone buy a Festool drill other than to match their other tools?  Plenty of companies make great cordless power tool systems.   Milwaukee and Dewalt plus others have that market covered.   If Festool made more 12V stuff how would the compete price wise with Red and Yellow?  What would Festool possibly offer that would justify what would certainly be a large price jump.

Additionally why 12V?  I haven't really understood why companies run multi lines.  Milwaukee for example has the 12 and the 18V line (plus some others but not many tools).  The existence of the 12V line is more annoying than anything.  If your someone like me with countless 18V tools, finding the tool you want is only in 12V and you have no 12V system is just frustrating.

I would much rather see Festool go an develop a higher voltage (sub 100V) battery instead.  Be their global bridge solution.  Make chargers for each country, make the tools all run on the new battery.  Be a path to common tools around the world, open up options like cordless routers, smokeless Kapex and such.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5698
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2018, 03:54 PM »
Not sure about many of you out there, but I'm afraid I've reached my end with this company.  I'll keep using my existing tools, but it's highly unlikely I'll purchase new ones.

Odd, they don't make ALL the tools you would like, so you ditch the entire company?

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 460
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2018, 10:02 PM »
Honestly, I just wish they'd adapt the CXS battery pack to fit the rest of the festool chargers. Given the current width of the newer 2.6Ah CXS battery, the form factor wouldn't need to change a whole lot.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline koenbro

  • Posts: 58
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2018, 12:56 AM »
The Milwaukee 12V line is spectacular - my first choice when picking up a non-Festool. And, frankly the CXS is not that great when compared to the Milwaukee 12 V line, except dor the 90 degree chuck, which is the best I’ve seen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MFT/3 • TS 55 REQ • Carvex PS420 EBQ + Accessories • OF1400 + LR32 + MFS400 • Domino DF500 • ETS EC150/5 EQplus • DTS 400 REQplus • CXS • CT 26E • Fuji Q4 + 3M PPS

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 178
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2018, 04:11 AM »
All Bosch or Milwaukee would have to do to move in on the gap in the Festool line is make up some black and green versions of what they're already selling.

Extra points if they make the brand label area smooth so a self-printed Festool sticker can be applied on top by the end user.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2338
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2018, 05:32 AM »
My policy is to buy the best tools I can afford regardless of brand. Thus, I have a shop full of Festool products. What has found its way into my tool collection is a brace of Bosch small drills. One has a Phillips bit premounted and the other with an empty Jacobs chuck. They are mounted on the side of my work island for a quick grab. The little drills fit my hand, the battery charge lasts a very long time, and they are ridiculously powerful.

The CSX and TSX still get used as does the T18, but the little Bosch drills are the first to be grabbed for a quick job.
Birdhunter

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1044
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2018, 04:29 PM »
The Miwaukee line offers some nice tools in their 12-volt range.  I bought into it for options like their Hackzall, inflator, and Dremel-like tool and they are great.  I do have one of their drills, but IMHO, there is no comparison to the finesse the CXS offers.  My only regret is that I sold my early CXS when I got the latest one.  I would have been happy with two.

Mike A.

Offline rniles

  • Posts: 4
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2018, 11:59 PM »
Not sure about many of you out there, but I'm afraid I've reached my end with this company.  I'll keep using my existing tools, but it's highly unlikely I'll purchase new ones.

Odd, they don't make ALL the tools you would like, so you ditch the entire company?

Nope.  I'm just a guy who actually sold Festool power tools for a few years and has a legitimate working knowledge of how reps are instructed by corporate when responding to inquiries.  So, there's that bit of background.
RO90, RO150, CXS, DWC18, DOMINO 700, TS55, CARVEX, PRO5, MIDI, MFT 1080

Offline rniles

  • Posts: 4
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2018, 12:02 AM »
You have a great option:
- using the tools they provide, if they make tools that are useful for you

Or
- find another company that does provide what you want

Or
- found a tool company and build the exact tools you think are missing on the market


I can never fathom how one could have grievances with a companies offerings. It is a free market, that is the great thing!
We are all in this forum, because for some of our use cases, Festool builds just the right tools.
For other of our use cases, we go elsewhere.

Rid yourself of your grievances and be happy with whatever tool you have in hand and go make something. [emoji41]

The free market is a great thing.  You know what's also great? Demanding further excellence from an excellent manufacturer.  By stating my disappointment and purchasing decisions I am embracing said free market. 
RO90, RO150, CXS, DWC18, DOMINO 700, TS55, CARVEX, PRO5, MIDI, MFT 1080

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4946
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2018, 12:32 AM »
Ya, if you want 12 volt tools, just saddle up to Milwaukee. They have a great selection, despite the fact that the redundancy of their 12/18 volt offerings is hurting their bottom line. A 12 volt Hackzall...an 18 volt Hackzall, a 12 volt blower...an 18 volt blower, a 12 volt soldering iron...an 18 volt soldering iron. Tough to be profitable under those terms.

Just purchase Festool for what they’re good at and purchase Milwaukee for what they’re good at. It’s a good symbiotic relationship.  [smile]  Today I just used the Milwaukee air compressor, impact wrench and right angle grinder along with the Festool CXS and TSC 55. They all play well together.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5698
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2018, 01:32 AM »
Not sure about many of you out there, but I'm afraid I've reached my end with this company.  I'll keep using my existing tools, but it's highly unlikely I'll purchase new ones.

Odd, they don't make ALL the tools you would like, so you ditch the entire company?

Nope.  I'm just a guy who actually sold Festool power tools for a few years and has a legitimate working knowledge of how reps are instructed by corporate when responding to inquiries.  So, there's that bit of background.

Aha, that's quite a bit more to form an opinion about a company than what you said before.

I've spoken to dealers here who quit being Festool dealers, and they were always happy to tell me how dissatisfied they were with Festool as a company, so you're not the only one. But that's a different reason than just the 12v tools.

Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 10:53 AM »
Festool should take note of posts like these.

I am also aware of a few dealers here that are less then happy with Festool repair/replacement management and that does take a toll on sales eventually. I have a good report with two of the largest Festool vendors over here and things are heading in the wrong direction.

Still keeping myself invested in Festool gear but I am a bit more sceptical about new products than I was before. I have had more lemons with Festool than any other tool brand I have been into - which is a bit surprising considering the perceived quality of Festool. Unfortunately the repair service has not been great either with repairs dragging on, coming back unfixed and in the last case: gone missing!  [eek]. Still, the very good natured Festool rep over here has saved Festool from losing (at least) one more long time / long term customer. 
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline oberlin1

  • Posts: 14
  • Larry
Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 12:48 PM »
The 12v stuff is fine for odd jobs and DIY stuff (I have a couple of Bosch units (drills/drivers/right angle) but they just cannot cut it for bigger jobs.  I'm not a tradesperson but if I am buying anything cordless it will be 18 volt.
CXS, ETC-125, TS-75, CT-26E, LS-130, RO-150 FEQ

Re: 12v Tools - or lack thereof
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2018, 04:12 PM »
The 12v stuff is fine for odd jobs and DIY stuff (I have a couple of Bosch units (drills/drivers/right angle) but they just cannot cut it for bigger jobs.  I'm not a tradesperson but if I am buying anything cordless it will be 18 volt.

I agree. I have the Bosch carpet cutter (great unit) and the 12V GHO planer. The planer is quite weak and runs down batteries YOLO style. I still find it very useful but would much rather have it in 18V configuration. Yeah, I know there is a 18V Bosch planer but it is bit too large for delicate work though it is very light. I briefly used the Bosch 12V edge router and though not too bad the RPM is too low for quality edge routing. The Makita 18V router runs circles around it. 

Makita runs a sub compact 18V line up (basically same tool as the 10,8/12V but on the 18V platform too) as complimentary tools to the regular 18V line up and I think it is a very good idea.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.