Author Topic: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools (Read 5090 times)

Lurveleven · « **on:** November 14, 2017, 06:06 PM »

I really wish Festool could make an accessory that made battery powered tools auto start the vacuum. I really wanted a TSC 55 but got a corded saw instead because of the autostart.
To make it compatible with existing tools and vacuums, I would have made it like this:
A small unit that you plug into the power socket on the vacuum. Uses bluethoot to communicate with the other unit that you connect between the dust port on the tool and the hose that goes into the tool. The unit close to the tool could use different sensors to detect if the tool had started, e.g. vibration or electromagnetic radiation from the motor. When it detected that the tool had started it would send a signal to the unit on the vacuum to draw enough power from the power socket on the vacuum so that the vacuum started. Does anyone how much power has to be drawn? If you need to draw a lot of power, then this solution may not be feasible.
In newer (versions of) tools the bluethoot functionality could be built in, but should still be comatible with the accessory so you should be able to use a new tool with an old vac, and use old tools with new vacs.

McNally Family · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2017, 09:14 PM »

Quote from: Lurveleven on November 14, 2017, 06:06 PM

I really wish Festool could make an accessory that made battery powered tools auto start the vacuum. I really wanted a TSC 55 but got a corded saw instead because of the autostart.
To make it compatible with existing tools and vacuums, I would have made it like this:
A small unit that you plug into the power socket on the vacuum. Uses bluethoot to communicate with the other unit that you connect between the dust port on the tool and the hose that goes into the tool. The unit close to the tool could use different sensors to detect if the tool had started, e.g. vibration or electromagnetic radiation from the motor. When it detected that the tool had started it would send a signal to the unit on the vacuum to draw enough power from the power socket on the vacuum so that the vacuum started. Does anyone how much power has to be drawn? If you need to draw a lot of power, then this solution may not be feasible.
In newer (versions of) tools the bluethoot functionality could be built in, but should still be comatible with the accessory so you should be able to use a new tool with an old vac, and use old tools with new vacs.

You're prayers have been answered:

https://www.toolnut.com/festool/new-festool-tools/maxsys-wireless-remote-for-festool-ct-dust-extractors.html

antss · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2017, 09:29 PM »

^^^^^^^

um, not really.

While Rick's device is as good a solution as exists for Festool, it's not automatic and it's not what Lurveleven really wants. He wants the vacuum to automatically start pulling when he presses the trigger on his battery powered saw or sander.

Maxsys is just a fancy long ranger that integrates into the CT vacs. Very nicely , I might add.

My money is on Milwaukee. They are already shipping tools that can be controlled by a smartphone app and have rudimentary feedback capability. Makita would be the next logical player as they seem to be serious about both dust collection and cordless tools.

I'm still on the fence as to whether Festool has the ability to design such a system. It seems clear they don't have the will right now given their recent focus on sanders and the drywall trades.

Jmacpherson · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2017, 02:04 AM »

Quote from: antss on November 14, 2017, 09:29 PM

My money is on Milwaukee. They are already shipping tools that can be controlled by a smartphone app and have rudimentary feedback capability. Makita would be the next logical player as they seem to be serious about both dust collection and cordless tools.

You are on the money, there is a trade show in Austin at the moment. Makita are demonstrating their new AWS (auto-start wireless system) tools which sync via bluetooth with their vac (of course). Works on the cordless track saw, new cordless mitre saws, cordless vario speed angle grinder and cordless sds-max drill.

Bob D. · « **Reply #4 on:** November 15, 2017, 04:28 AM »

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone came out with this. I had suggested it earlier this year but no doubt Makita were already in development. Why FT has not brought this out or RTSystems created a device to work with their MAXSys remote I don't know. That's what prompted me to think of the remote, when I got the MAXSys for my CT-36. Seems like an easy add.

I was thinking along the lines of a remote that sensed vibration or the field generated when the tools' motor started then sent a signal to the vac to start or stop. Attach with some Velcro and you can move it form tool to tool or buy multiple sensors, one for each tool.

Lurveleven · « **Reply #5 on:** November 15, 2017, 08:05 AM »

Good to see that something is happening in this area, I wasn't aware that Makita came with AWS. I already have a lot of Makita, but not in the dust producing category

I like to mix and match tools, so what I'm afraid of is that every manufacturer make their own system with incompatible protocols/APIs so that you cannot use a Makita AWS tool on another brands vac, or a non-Makita tool with a Makita AWS vac. They should really get together and make a standard! One big flaw with the Makita AWS system is that you cannot mix new and old, so there is still room for my proposed solution. We cannot renew many of our tools just for a feature like this.
I see now that my suggested solution doesn't have to be made by Festool, but can be made by an 3rd party producer like the MAXSys. The MAXSys is a long step in the right direction, but it is only compatible with Festool vacs, I have another vac (Blue Bosch branded Starmix) that I would like to be able to use the same way. One problem with my solution is that you cannot use it on a battery powered vac, therefore we need a standard.

kevinculle · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM »

I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection. If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride. At least that way the vaunted Festool system with 1st rate dust collection works as intended. As this discussion demonstrates, the cordless tool in this case creates new problems while offering no tangible benefits, unless you really enjoy charging and swapping out batteries.

Lurveleven · « **Reply #7 on:** November 15, 2017, 09:21 AM »

Quote from: kevinculle on November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM

I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection.

Working outside, I want/need the convenience of cordless and don't need dust extractor but instead use a dust bag. When working inside I always use dust extractor, but I don't want to buy two versions of the tool, one battery powered and one corded, instead I only want cordless.

Jozsef Kozma · « **Reply #8 on:** November 15, 2017, 09:32 AM »

Also here comes the cordless vacuum in play
Don’t have to look for outlets and one less tripping hazard
on the power cord (vacuum to outlet )

antss · « **Reply #9 on:** November 15, 2017, 09:58 AM »

Quote from: kevinculle on November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM

I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection. If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride. At least that way the vaunted Festool system with 1st rate dust collection works as intended. As this discussion demonstrates, the cordless tool in this case creates new problems while offering no tangible benefits, unless you really enjoy charging and swapping out batteries.

Then , what is one supposed to do with a product like FT's new ETSC sanders ? Buy a vac , or just use the dust bag?

And if the dust bag is so good and wonderful , why should I buy a Festool vac in the first place. It offers no real benefit justifying its cost for cleaning up a jobsite afterwards because there is little mess anyway. And why did Festool even venture into the vac hookup arena then? I think a crappy canvas dust bags came with mitersaws and planers back in the early 80's. Festools improvement on that would seem to alleviate the need for a vacuum under the don't need the vac because the bag is so good scenario.

The "system" is great if you're goal is simply to sell more tools. Buy one of each. But, as Lurv points out , most people aren't going to go that route. Too much cost and storage space involved.

Jmacpherson · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2017, 03:39 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on November 15, 2017, 04:28 AM

I was thinking along the lines of a remote that sensed vibration

Metabo to the rescue - hose senses vibration (or sensor in hose attached to vac)and switches vac on, so works with any brand of tool.

I'm sure all the other brands will be on to this stuff in due course.

Svar · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2017, 04:34 PM »

Quote from: Jmacpherson on November 15, 2017, 03:39 PM

Metabo to the rescue - hose senses vibration (or sensor in hose attached to vac) and switches vac on, so works with any brand of tool.

Now, this is a winner. Plus, manual switch is right there on the hose.
The sensor is connected to the vac with wire running along the hose. They could easily make it wireless.
Was that a charging station on top of the vac?

DB10 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2017, 05:53 PM »

At the start of the video you will also notice the Metabo Metaloc sys4, that is moved out of the way. Must be the new sys vac that Metabo said they were launching next year, apparently runs on both 18v and mains.

antss · « **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2017, 08:22 PM »

DB - looks like the big vac is battery powered too .

This should put a lot of pressure on the festool designers.

@TylerC - your colleagues are aware of this new tool , yes ?

TylerC · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2017, 08:25 PM »

@antss - We're aware.

antss · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2017, 10:57 PM »

So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

Bob D. · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2017, 04:51 AM »

Quote from: antss on November 15, 2017, 10:57 PM

So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

I vote yes, but make it a hybrid and include the capability to recharge 2 batteries.
In cordless mode it would run off those same two batteries.

Build it in a SYS 5 or 6 box or better yet make it so you could repurpose a box you
already have by removing the lid and installing the vac on top. Then you could size
the vac to whatever capacity you need.

aloysius · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2017, 07:19 AM »

Metabo also showed a much bigger (than a CTL-Sys) systainer-configured battery extractor with a much neater onboard battery compartment alongside the above Starmix format one. This is I suspect an AC/DC vac.

Whether it actually charges on AC power is unknown but I suspect unlikely. Just as long as it has an element of speed/suction variability & a more useful capacity to the rather puny CTL-Sys as well as the vibration sensors it's likely to be a winner.

With twin 8.0ah Li-HD batteries (cells slated for release by Sanyo Panasonic next year) it should have better suction & runtimes than most if not all competitors too.

Jmacpherson · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2017, 02:46 PM »

What I find interesting is Metabo claim their cordless vac matches their corded in terms of suction power.
Whereas the Makita 18v X2 AC/DC machine suction drops on pure battery power.

Would this be done to the Metabo battery tech that they could achieve that? Or did Makita maybe get there but go the longer run-time route and drop suction power/volume?

I'm looking forward to the rivals responding with their versions and their unique features/upgrades etc.
Interesting times

aloysius · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2017, 04:31 PM »

Those Samsung cells simply can't deliver the same levels of current as the more powerful Sanyo cells can. One of the reasons why Makita batteries are so much cheaper than the rest.

antss · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2017, 11:05 PM »

Quote from: Bob D. on November 16, 2017, 04:51 AM

Quote from: antss on November 15, 2017, 10:57 PM
So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

I vote yes, but make it a hybrid and include the capability to recharge 2 batteries.
In cordless mode it would run off those same two batteries

Build it in a SYS 5 or 6 box or better yet make it so you could repurpose a box you
already have by removing the lid and installing the vac on top. Then you could size
the vac to whatever capacity you need.

My fear is we'll just see another drywall sander and a new LED light along with an upgraded radio.

Because, after all, that's what Festool customers really want. 🙄

Job and Knock · « **Reply #21 on:** December 24, 2017, 04:09 PM »

Quote from: kevinculle on November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM

I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection. If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride.

I'll give you an example of why and where: you are working on an interior fit-out of a shop, because another trade has over-run you need to go in and cut and fix some skirting (baseboard) on the fly and make-up a hoarding which is a tight fit, the area you are working in has no mains power, your cutting area is 4 floors up from where you need to install making dragging stuff through a live shop a non-starter, and you don't want to breathe MDF dust (which is bad for you) whilst simultaneously keeping clean-up after the job to the minimum and on top of this you have to obey the law on workplace dust exposure. A bit far fetched? No, something which occurs in my working life way too much for my liking

SRSemenza · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2017, 04:32 PM »

Also for use with cordless drills.

Plus it makes the vac DC an option when only owning a cordless saw. In other words you can go cordless but still have the option to use a vac on remote.

It is nice to be able to turn the vac on / off without having to go to the vac. Which may be up/ down a ladder, etc. Lots of situations.

Seth

Alex · « **Reply #23 on:** December 24, 2017, 04:42 PM »

Quote from: Job and Knock on December 24, 2017, 04:09 PM

Quote from: kevinculle on November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM
I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection. If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride.
I'll give you an example of why and where: you are working on an interior fit-out of a shop, because another trade has over-run you need to go in and cut and fix some skirting (baseboard) on the fly and make-up a hoarding which is a tight fit, the area you are working in has no mains power, your cutting area is 4 floors up from where you need to install making dragging stuff through a live shop a non-starter, and you don't want to breathe MDF dust (which is bad for you) whilst simultaneously keeping clean-up after the job to the minimum and on top of this you have to obey the law on workplace dust exposure. A bit far fetched? No, something which occurs in my working life way too much for my liking

Sounds very far fetched, you manage to contradict your own example. If there is no mains power, where do you plug in the extractor?

ChuckM · « **Reply #24 on:** December 24, 2017, 05:15 PM »

An idea for Festool: a cordless dust extractor!

SRSemenza · « **Reply #25 on:** December 24, 2017, 06:13 PM »

Quote from: ChuckM on December 24, 2017, 05:15 PM

An idea for Festool: a cordless dust extractor!

Yes! I do wish the CT-Sys was cordless. That would make it that much more handy.

Seth