Even though I have used many of the tools for years, I am sure that I could learn from such a seminar.  I would think that at least a couple of days would be beneficial and I would probably not travel far for anything less.  I assume that there would be some charge to attend.

Gene, those are good ---but nothing is better than hands on instruction and use.

I agree with you both, properly done YouTube videos would be a great help especially with the basic procedures for tyros and to supplant the lousy (imo) factory manuals. But from what we heard from those lucky 'suckups' that got to go to Vegas, the hands-on with the Kapex and Domino was invaluable.

I would certainly be willing to pay a reasonable amount to attend and agree with you Frank that if you have to drive any significant distance it would have to be for two days or more. The class sizes should be kept small as you would be paying for hands-on/one-on-one type of tutelage.

Not to volunteer anyone but perhaps if Festool (or the local dealer) could provide any needed demonstration tools/accessories and pay their expenses (attendees would also contribute) we could get one or more of our own mavens to instruct (you studs know who you are! ).

If a dealer couldn't provide a suitable location for the training perhaps we FOG members could open our shops (I vote for WoodShopDemos - as long as the ladies are gonna be there! )

What would make the videos much more valuable is if they were done at a real seminar with FOG attendees (with some ordinary guys as well as experts like in Vegas) that way we would all benefit from the more experienced members' knowledge as well as the less experienced members' questions and concerns.

This was discussed while us "lucky suckups" were in Vegas last year. At that time Festool's trainers were busy training dealers so there wasn't time to do hands-on training courses with end users. I bet Festool is still busy with it's dealers. User organized courses is one option another may be to try to set up am open house at the Festool training center once a year for the users. Since travel/lodging is cheap to Vegas it might be affordable. Just a thought.

I definately would try to attend a hands on type demo - preferrably done by Festool personnel. Here in Louisiana, there is only one stocking dealer with very minimal stuff so having a local dealer provide training will not work. No choice but to travel to do this. Even though I have used my tools, I know they have functionality that I don't use since the manuals surely don't explain anything.
Pete

I think that we would get a better level of training with a centralized session lasting at least two days and using the regular peole that Festool uses to train their dealers.

How about teaming up with Woodcraft and some of the other dealers who have class room facilities to offer the seminars.

Walt,

That is what I am thinking also. The local Woodcraft (West Springfield,MA) has the training space and the tools but their staff (no disrespect intended) lack even basic training. I think most would agree that we would all benefit from more knowledgable and experienced dealers and I firmly believe that one of the greatest assets any company can have is well-informed and knowledgeable customers. Festool could "kill two birds with one stone" by scheduling their dealer training in sequence with customer training; thus making better use of their training personnel and material resources.

Matt, I like your idea of having attendees document the seminar and share it here at the FOG. An additional idea that just occurred to me is perhaps we could create our own instruction manuals/video tutorials for some of the various accessories that have little or no documentation.

One of the most important aspects of the FOG is the value it adds to Festool ownership. Although I purchased my first Festools before I was aware of the forum, the time I spend here and all that I have learned from others has given me the confidence to buy more and get more use from them. It is however, very disconcerting to read here about a neat little accessory that can expand your capabilities or make a task simpler, more accurate or more efficient; go out, buy it and then get home and find there are no instructions whatsoever.

I've also been in touch with Marc on various forum matters.
Matthew

I'm with you, Dan! Why not have a lottery drawing or something similar?

Dave,

I clicked on your link and nothing happened; has anyone else had the same problem?

While I would certainly love to see such a course in Las Vegas, I suspect that people who live in the Northeast would prefer some other place closer to home.

My suggestion would be to run two or three two or three day courses in one of the Festool training centers to see what works (and what doesn't).  My own preference would be to start each course with the assumption that the attendee had read "the manual" but had no hands on experience.  I would have Course 101 start with the MFT and rail and one of the saws.  I would have Course 102 cover routers and the domino.  I would have the third course cover the next two or three largest selling products.  I would hope that Festool would get some beginner users so that they could confront the normal/usual problems that new users have.

My guess would be that after running a couple of such courses Festool could put together a video (or more than one) for which I would gladly pay to have an organized and coherent presentation which could be sold to cover some of the above costs.  I could even see them making "an introduction" course available online through a users group and/or on their site. 

If Festool put together a 100 level set of courses such as suggested above, I think it would be much easier for them to have a couple of courses a year for "the next level" were personal instruction and supervision are particularly important.

Benefits them, not us?

That's easy.



I think the average reader in here knows a lot more about day to day use of Festool than the average new tool buyer does, or will. And that's a huge tool for Festool to put to use. I think if Festool organized such a series of classes as a one-time event, it would be useful to have a few of the engineers on hand, and some of the regional sales reps. But it might also be good to get people like:

-Bob Marino. (because, with all respect to the other dealers in here, it seems that everybody knows Bob, and he's been playing the game for a lot longer, he's the guy, I'm sure, who has all the Festool war stories to tell. Other dealers would obviously be welcome, but his is the name that comes to mind.)

-Jerry Work. Jerry, you're a huge asset, and your writing is top notch.

-Steve Jones. That cutting table is still knocking holes in my head.

-And a handful of the regular posters in here who actually use their tools. I drop in and Lurk, mostly.

I'm not talking about makign these guys schlepp out for nothin but a fancy blue and green apron. I'm suggesting that most of the money paid to take the course go to pay them for their time. I think Festool should pick up their travel expenses, since I think an event like this would be a great sales tool for them, and would benefit them in the long run.

I envision a three day course. Part of the cost of the course includes printed notes on the material to be covered. Video recording would be done while the classes are being held, and would be for sale at a later date, proceeds to benefit all presenters, to a point, or to benefit this website, as well as any other websites that come in and help organize. I refuse to buy another book that's written as a dumbed down instruction manual, for many reasons, but mainly because I think it's patronizing to any of us in here, and kinda insulting to the kind of people who use this stuff in the first place.

Day One, The Tools,
as taught by the engineers.
------------------------------------------
-TS 55/75.
-All other rail guided operations with routers, jigsaw.
-Domino

In essence, Day one presents the heart of the basic system as I understand it, and it will help get things rolling.

Day Two, Setting up the workspace or shop.
as taught by engineers, and the guys listed above.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-The MFT table. I'm guessing this would be a collaborative work between FOG members and the Festool engineers, to show how it was intended to be used, and how people have been using it since.

-Steve Jones and his cutting table. I've seen a lot of cool things on this website. His table is the clearest evidence I've seen lately of thinking professional woodworkers evolving new methods of work around these better tools. It's simple, efficient, and it's obvious he didn't come up with it by sitting around and drinking coffee. I mean no disrespect of offense to other jig builders or tradesmen, I haven't read everything on this forum yet, so if I missed someone else's better or really awesome idea, I apologize. I also know and understand that some people have been making improvements to his design in some respects, but, with all due respect, I'd rather listen to the mind that came up with the thing in the first place.

I think the two of these systems being demonstrated side by side will allow for a lot of cross pollination, and serious head-scratching. I, for one, would be really stoked.

-Dust collection... This is something that is must-have these days, and it's one of the things that Festool does best. But it's also the thing that (for some guys I know) makes the whole process of getting set up take longer, and it's one more thing to get in the way while working. So having someone explain how they've managed to get used to it, or tricks they use to make it less obtrusive, would be less eye popping than the work tables listed above but would probably be really, really cool. The boom arm is an obvious thing to mention, particularly since the new heavy router seems designed for use with an overhead collection hose.

You guys pick... I don't know who would have the best working setup for the use of small in-line cyclones like the Dust Deputy, but I, for one, am kinda tired of pushing a loaded CT with one hand, and dragging the cyclone can around with the other. There's a good and well thought out idea out there to incorporate the two, I'm sure. My current setup has two of hte narrower anti-static hoses, with connectors swapped, so one has two, 2.5" connectors, and one has two rubber nozzles, because I found that the rubber nozzle plugs quite nicely into the inlet on the DD. It's functional, and it works, but I'm sure someone else has something better set up already.

Day 3, Doing the actual work
again, taught by a mix of people.
-------------------------------------
-Using the MFS system. I thought this thing was a glorified picture frame until I started playing with it, and I'd love to hear what engineers and users alike have to teach about it.

-Jigs and jig building for use with the routers, saws, and Domino.

This would be a day to demonstrate the store-buyable jigs from Festool, as well as the best of the user-made enhancements to the MFT, or other ways of working that have proved to be robust and regularly useful and ingenious. I realize that some people would probably be up in arms about licensing, and ideas being stolen, and whatnot, and those people don't have to show anything they don't want to. I do think that good ideas beget other good ideas, and if it were me, I'd rather throw my ideas out into the ring and see where it leads, because if I was really worried about protecting my last good idea, my next move should be to pack up and sell off my shop, and work for someone else who has ideas of their own.

I really have no idea how I'd structure this last day. I see it bringing Day one and Two together in a really good way, because it's the actual work that matters. It might need to be a 2 day section, I don't know. I see three main pillars at work in this field, the tools, the workspace, and the ideas that help put the tools and the workspace together to do the actual job. Building on all 3 of these is key, but the last pillar is the one most subject to rapid change and growth, so it's gonna be hard to get everything corralled in a meaningful way. But it's also the reason for everyone to run a course like this. Users can learn what Festool was thinking, and that will probably help them improve on the work they do. Festool can learn more about how the tools perform once they've been released from their captive breeding ground and set loose in the wild, and this will hopefully inform how they design and build tools in the future.

I also think it would put them in touch with people that would be better able to write effective and actually useful instruction manuals for the tools that are being sold. I'll use the Leigh jig as an example of why this is a good idea. The Leigh jig is very complex, pretty robust, incredibly adjustable, and it can do a really wide variety of work. But if it didn't come with a manual that's 3/4 of an inch thick, with detailed step by step and basic instructions, no-one would have learned how to use the thing, new users wouldn't be able to figure it out, and it wouldn't be a marketable tool. By guiding new jig owners carefully through the process of setting the jig up and using it, they managed to sell not just the tool, but the knowledge base required to begin using it. Even with the manual, it's an intimidating jig to use at first. But the manual contains the knowledge that is a necessary component of the system to allow it to work effectively. I think the same holds true for a lot of what Festool has out there right now. The Domino is not on the same level, I don't think, as the Leigh jig, but seems to incite a lot of curiosity and head scratching. A solid manual that guides people through the process leads to knowledgeable and competent owner-users, who will then brag about how cool the tool is. Good copy will not sell a tool as well as good copy about good work being done.

my .02

I thought it wounded cool, but it's very clearly pulled out of my backside, as it's pretty contingent on the attendance of various people from the forum, not just the Festool engineers...

I think this is the real problem, John.

We need a motivated organizer.