Author Topic: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!  (Read 341713 times)

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Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2010, 08:06 PM »
Which tool companies have narrowed the gap, have the system approach, dust collection and the quality that  Festool has and are cheaper?

John

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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2010, 01:12 AM »

3) Dominos that you don't have to hammer in the mortise


I find with a nice biscuit joiner using glue you can get perfect alignment so I wouldn't say biscuits are crappy, just different. But I I always had to allow for expansion and  glue with the biscuits which took a feel to get just right. Isn't this so with the Dominoes as well?

I could not disagree with this statement more. The whole concept behind Domino is precision, and if the Domino's were not so tight, you would have the same crappy precision you would get from a biscuit joiner. If you want them loose for a test-fit, then you should keep a set of Domino's that are sanded down and color coded so you don't use them for final assembly.

I have a question about that tightness. I do not have a Domino and never used one so I really don't know much about them at all. Is glue normally used with the domino tenons? And if  glue is normally used wouldn't something that was that tight not allow the glue to be useful? It seems from pics there are glue ribs on the domino tenons, but the domino tenons look to be much more stable than a biscuit, so it seems a perfect size would be simpler to attain for the tenons. Is super tight the best size?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 01:18 AM by nickao »
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Offline irvin00

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2010, 06:10 AM »
Which tool companies have narrowed the gap, have the system approach, dust collection and the quality that  Festool has and are cheaper?

John

The milwaukee 6955-20 miter saw costs $650 ( and sometimes much less at Home Depot) and it's every bit as good as Festool's Kapex. Even if you think the Kapex is better than Milwaukee's unit, it's really difficult to believe that it is twice as good, as the price would suggest.

The Trion jigsaw is not any better than the Bosch counterpart, but is priced much higher (I have both and there is no difference in quality whatsoever).

I could provide  more examples, but you get the idea...

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2010, 08:21 AM »
I'm really not trying to be argumentative but what you have shown are 2 examples from different companies that are not part of an integrated system.  While the Mikwaukee saw may cut extremely well I believe hooking it up to dust collection is still a problem and just moving it around would give most a hernia. The Bosch is a fine jigsaw no question but still not part of an integrated system. You could show me one of examples all day, but what I want you to show me is another tool company available in NA that is on the same level as Festool for a consistently cheaper price. From your previous statements on the forum you are hobbyist and don't make your living with your tools so price is very important to you, I understand that. I personally want Festool to keep using the system approach, ask the fill in blank questions, produce tools that make me money and not strive for mediocrity that most tool manufactures have succumb too.

John

Offline irvin00

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2010, 08:46 AM »
I'm really not trying to be argumentative but what you have shown are 2 examples from different companies that are not part of an integrated system.  While the Mikwaukee saw may cut extremely well I believe hooking it up to dust collection is still a problem and just moving it around would give most a hernia. The Bosch is a fine jigsaw no question but still not part of an integrated system. You could show me one of examples all day, but what I want you to show me is another tool company available in NA that is on the same level as Festool for a consistently cheaper price. From your previous statements on the forum you are hobbyist and don't make your living with your tools so price is very important to you, I understand that. I personally want Festool to keep using the system approach, ask the fill in blank questions, produce tools that make me money and not strive for mediocrity that most tool manufactures have succumb too.

John

Well, as per your request, I gave you examples of tools that provide similar functionality to their Festool counterparts at a fraction of the cost. By "similar functionality" I mean that there is virtually nothing that can be done with the Festool units that can't be done with these other units  (btw, your comment about dust collection on the Milwaukee miter saw is completely wrong; it works as well as the Kapex, but it seems you have a pre-conceived notion that anything NOT Festool is inferior, regardless of how well it may work) .

As for me being a hobbyst, yes, I fully admit to that, and yes, price is a LEGITIMATE concern; In fact, I'm pretty sure price is a concern to the majority here, given that most professionals visiting this forum are small (sometimes single) operators. It should also be pointed out that it is often the case that hobbysts like me are in a better financial situation to buy tools than a professional that struggles to make a living; so, I guess any smart person should look at price as part of the equation when making equipment purchases. I like to be objective and avoid the "Festool groupie" mentality where anything Festool is great and the price is therefore justified.

Finally, I would like to mention that the Festool "Integrated System" is the norm these days  - a good example is the tracksaw by Dewalt (http://www.dewalt.com/us/tracksaw/). I'm not saying it is better than its Festool counterpart. I'm saying that people have OPTIONS these days and Festool will be wise to factor that into their pricing strategy (they already do that to an extent with their prices in Europe vs USA). That was the gist of my post and I still maintain it - but respect anyone's right to disagree :-)


Offline Alex

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2010, 08:50 AM »
I personally want Festool to keep using the system approach, ask the fill in blank questions, produce tools that make me money and not strive for mediocrity that most tool manufactures have succumb too.

Wow! Putting Bosch and Milwaukee in the 'mediocre' class is quite a statement.  [blink] I understand this forum is for those who love the green Kool Aid, but you got to be weary of not drinking too much. I can't believe you would call Bosch jigsaws mediocre just because you love Festool so much.

And as for the whole 'system' idea, it's way too overemphasised. Because for most Festool tools the whole system approach means plugging the tool into a vacuum and that's just as easily done with tools from other brands.

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2010, 09:01 AM »

3) Dominos that you don't have to hammer in the mortise


I find with a nice biscuit joiner using glue you can get perfect alignment so I wouldn't say biscuits are crappy, just different. But I I always had to allow for expansion and  glue with the biscuits which took a feel to get just right. Isn't this so with the Dominoes as well?

I could not disagree with this statement more. The whole concept behind Domino is precision, and if the Domino's were not so tight, you would have the same crappy precision you would get from a biscuit joiner. If you want them loose for a test-fit, then you should keep a set of Domino's that are sanded down and color coded so you don't use them for final assembly.

I have a question about that tightness. I do not have a Domino and never used one so I really don't know much about them at all. Is glue normally used with the domino tenons? And if  glue is normally used wouldn't something that was that tight not allow the glue to be useful? It seems from pics there are glue ribs on the domino tenons, but the domino tenons look to be much more stable than a biscuit, so it seems a perfect size would be simpler to attain for the tenons. Is super tight the best size?

Glue is normally used with Dominos.  They do have impressions that allows retention of some glue and ribs on the rounded ends.  

Rick and I are not likely to agree on this but that is his opinion and I have mine too.  I don't believe super tight is the best size since I am a slip fit guy and don't believe tenons (either wet or dry) should have to be hammered home.  I have been making M&T joints for over 30 years and have never had a failure with a slip fit joint.  With the domino, I have actually broken workpieces during glue-up hammering domino joints home and I believe it is due to hydraulic pressure created by the very tight fit.  During dry fit, you can push a domino into position by hand but it requires substantial force and unless you sand some down as Rick suggests, you will need vice grips to remove it for final assembly.  This has always destroyed the domino when I have done so.  

Offline harry_

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2010, 09:19 AM »
Quote
And as for the whole 'system' idea, it's way too overemphasised. Because for most Festool tools the whole system approach means plugging the tool into a vacuum and that's just as easily done with tools from other brands.


Alex,

I couldn't agree more, with one caveat, customer service. Once that is figured in, the road to mediocrity becomes a super-highway.

Because of Bosch's attitude regarding customer service, I will probably never buy another Bosch tool.

I only have one Milwaukee, a 3/8 "hole-shooter" hammer drill. There is no doubt in my mind that this drill has drilled well in excess 250,000 holes (in fact it is a good bet it is actually twice that), mostly for tapcons. I believe it still has the original chuck although I have replaced the cord on it more times than I can count. It is almost 25 years old and I believe it works as well today as the day I purchased it.

As far as the "system approach", on this side of the pond it lacks substance since 1/2 the product line is NAINA including accessories that have nothing to do with UL. But as we all know that is  [dead horse]

Sorry if I drifted  [off topic]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2010, 09:45 AM »
If Harry were to replace that 25 year old hole-shooter with their newest version do you think he'd get 25 years out of it?  Not likely.  You comparing apples to oranges when talking about tools that more than 10-15 years old to their new counterparts.  Looking what tool companies were doing 15 or more years they certainly are mediocre now.

I'd agree the "System" may be a bit over emphasized, however, there is no other tool company even close to what Festool is doing to make their tools work together.  Almost anyone trying it now is copying Festool's model.
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Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 698
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2010, 09:58 AM »
Alex and Irvin00

You are both totally right, I now see the light, how could I have been so mistaken all these years.  Bosch, Milwaukee, Dewalt  all produce the same high quality lineup of tools and have the same customer service as Festool. By the way I like green Koolaid.

John




Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2010, 10:22 AM »
When I think about the system, I also look at all the accessories that are offered for various tools.  Let's take the routers for example.  Look at what is available for the routers - for their intended application as hand held and then look at others.  Or the jig saws.  Or even the track saws.


Can those other manufacturer's offer a two day class to show the usage of the system and the accessories for just one line of their offerings and still not cover them all?  The advanced router class can.
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Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2010, 10:29 AM »
I think Festool should make a Drum sander for flooring.

Maybe a nice tile saw as well.

Offline FestFan

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2010, 11:05 AM »
Please remember; we?re all on this forum as fans of Festools. Some of us have experienced working with other brands and didn?t suffer from any bad consequences in doing so. I too have seen the light and adopted Festool as my number one toolsupplier. But I would like to keep in mind though that the world is bigger than Festool and I simply can?t blame other companies that they make either good tools, or are not named Festool.

The so celebrated TS 55 and TS 75 have there roots in 1923 and were invented by a company today known as Skil. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_saw#Invention)

The discussed jigsaw was invented by Scintilla which was acquired by Bosch in 1954. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigsaw_%28power_tool%29)

The plunge router was first developed by Elu, today known as DeWalt.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router_%28woodworking%29)

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Offline FestFan

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2010, 11:06 AM »
I wish Festool would make something like this: the Skil X-bench 3100. (http://www.amazon.com/Skil-3100-12-X-Bench-Workstation/dp/B0010ODQ1U)
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Offline Holzhacker

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2010, 02:12 PM »
Ummm, yeah, that Skil table is a cheesy MFT. I had an earlier version of that table years ago. It was a piece of ....
The MFT has a somewhat high price. To make a less expensive version would probably defeat its superior use. At that point one might as well go to the big box store and buy the usual offerings. I've owned many portable / jobsite type work tables over the decades. I never bought a second one of them or have any of them. Waiting for the right job to come along so I can pick up another MFT.
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Offline Corwin

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2010, 04:47 PM »
...
And as for the whole 'system' idea, it's way too overemphasised. Because for most Festool tools the whole system approach means plugging the tool into a vacuum and that's just as easily done with tools from other brands.
When I think about the system, I also look at all the accessories that are offered for various tools.  Let's take the routers for example.  Look at what is available for the routers - for their intended application as hand held and then look at others.  ...

The 'system' thing may seem overemphasized to some, but it is more than just "plugging the tool into a vacuum."  Actually, I would like to see more of the 'system' idea put into the Festool lineup.  Take the router accessories for instance;  the edge trimming accessories work for both the 1010 and 1400 routers, yet each router requires its own edge guide.  I understand that there will be limits on how far you can go to make accessories interchangeable between varying size routers, but it sure would have been nice if one edge guide would work for the 1010, 1400 and MFK 700 -- you know, like a system. 

While we wait here for the CMS to arrive on our shores, we have already learned here that the new UG Arms do not fit well on both the MFT/3 and /VL as it does on the CMS due to a simple knob.  And what's up with the extension table on the Kapex?  Why doesn't it terminate with the V-groove also?  When the new MFT/3s we coming out, we were told that there would be accessories that utilized this V-groove -- where are they?

Overemphasized or not, we like the 'system' thing.  Its a large part of your (Festool's) success.  And you should keep it up.  It is frustrating when things within the system change, like the MFT - MFT/3 and the current Systainers - T-Locks, but it is understandable (progress).  So, we want you to continue with the system concept and to make more tools and accessories that fit within and expand upon the 'system'.   
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2010, 10:16 PM »
The V-groove accessories are still stuck in Europe. [big grin]

Offline Corwin

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #107 on: August 23, 2010, 12:41 AM »
The V-groove accessories are still stuck in Europe. [big grin]

That made me laugh.  So, to properly fill in the blank, let me say:

I wish Festool made a tool that was released in the USA first!  So, how 'bout them apples?   [smile]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline jonny round boy

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #108 on: August 23, 2010, 01:06 AM »
I wish Festool made a tool that was released in the USA first!  So, how 'bout them apples?   [smile]

I thought they already had. Maybe I imagined it, but I thought you got the OF2200 before anyone else?
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline Corwin

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #109 on: August 23, 2010, 01:22 AM »
I wish Festool made a tool that was released in the USA first!  So, how 'bout them apples?   [smile]

I thought they already had. Maybe I imagined it, but I thought you got the OF2200 before anyone else?

Uhm, well I didn't.  Heh, heh.  Not yet, at least.  But seriously, one tool released here first?  Just you guys wait.  UL-EU in coming!  (actually, it has already started)   Now we'll see who has the last laugh...   [tongue]
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 01:26 AM by Corwin »
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Chris Meggersee

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #110 on: August 23, 2010, 03:52 AM »
The V-groove accessories are still stuck in Europe. [big grin]

That made me laugh.  So, to properly fill in the blank, let me say:

I wish Festool made a tool that was released in the USA first!  So, how 'bout them apples?   [smile]

Don't know about the tools but all the cool extras aren't even available here (I'm going to go out on a limb here and say neither in Europe since SA is an extension of the EU shipping) had to order the tape measure from America :/ I mean I don't think shirts, caps, levels etc are sold here either.

Anyway I wish Festool made everything else in my workshop so I could sell my left leg to buy it all but the worlds most awesome workshop. :D
PS300EQ Jigsaw - OF1010EBQ Router - DF500 Domino - RO125FEQ Sander - C12CE Drill - TS55EBQ Saw - CT22E Dust extractor - DTS400 Sander

Wish List: Anything not listed above in the catalogue.

Offline PaulMarcel

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #111 on: August 23, 2010, 05:33 AM »
While we wait here for the CMS to arrive on our shores, we have already learned here that the new UG Arms do not fit well on both the MFT/3 and /VL as it does on the CMS due to a simple knob.  And what's up with the extension table on the Kapex?  Why doesn't it terminate with the V-groove also?  When the new MFT/3s we coming out, we were told that there would be accessories that utilized this V-groove -- where are they?

Many of the modifications I've made to improve my MFT wouldn't work on the MFT/3 due to the V-groove and lack of top T-track.  I'm actually considering getting a second MFT-1080 Basic just because I don't want it to go away :)  I'm actually not sure what the V-groove would buy you over the previous track, but then I don't have an MFT/3 to look at up close n personal n all that.
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Offline nico

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #112 on: August 23, 2010, 09:43 AM »
I wish Festool made all their tools 50% cheaper  ;)

Offline Frank Pellow

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #113 on: August 23, 2010, 10:57 AM »
I wish Festool made all their tools 50% cheaper  ;)

I'm sure that you intended to say 'sold' rather than 'made'.  [poke]  If they made them 50%, cheaper, most of us would not want such tools.
Cheers,   
               Frank (Festool connoisseur)

Offline ScotF

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #114 on: August 23, 2010, 11:46 AM »
I wish Festool made a miter gauge for the guiderail that could be adjusted to lock at 90 degrees and that had the other key angles with stops too -- similar to what is offered by Protool.

Scot

Offline Deansocial

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #115 on: August 23, 2010, 02:36 PM »
i wish they made quick release guide rail connectors, i see these being a good seller

Offline justinmcf

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #116 on: August 23, 2010, 04:15 PM »
quick release guide rail connectors would be great dean.

i dislike the current system.

justin.

Offline Deansocial

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #117 on: August 23, 2010, 04:20 PM »
i think its poor  that they use slotted screws

Offline woodtradesman

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #118 on: August 23, 2010, 05:12 PM »
I would like to see a vacuum power brush attachment like the fein PB350 and a high efficiency compact compressor.
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #119 on: August 23, 2010, 05:23 PM »
I would like to see a vacuum power brush attachment like the fein PB350 and a high efficiency compact compressor.

Well, you are in luck.

the power brush is part number 450644 and is available even in North America.  The compressor we will have to wait on.
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.