Author Topic: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools  (Read 1699 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lurveleven

  • Posts: 4
Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« on: November 14, 2017, 06:06 PM »
I really wish Festool could make an accessory that made battery powered tools auto start the vacuum. I really wanted a TSC 55 but got a corded saw instead because of the autostart.
To make it compatible with existing tools and vacuums, I would have made it like this:
A small unit that you plug into the power socket on the vacuum. Uses bluethoot to communicate with the other unit that you connect between the dust port on the tool and the hose that goes into the tool. The unit close to the tool could use different sensors to detect if the tool had started, e.g. vibration or electromagnetic radiation from the motor. When it detected that the tool had started it would send a signal to the unit on the vacuum to draw enough power from the power socket on the vacuum so that the vacuum started. Does anyone how much power has to be drawn? If you need to draw a lot of power, then this solution may not be feasible.
In newer (versions of) tools the bluethoot functionality could be built in, but should still be comatible with the accessory so you should be able to use a new tool with an old vac, and use old tools with new vacs.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 460
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 09:14 PM »
I really wish Festool could make an accessory that made battery powered tools auto start the vacuum. I really wanted a TSC 55 but got a corded saw instead because of the autostart.
To make it compatible with existing tools and vacuums, I would have made it like this:
A small unit that you plug into the power socket on the vacuum. Uses bluethoot to communicate with the other unit that you connect between the dust port on the tool and the hose that goes into the tool. The unit close to the tool could use different sensors to detect if the tool had started, e.g. vibration or electromagnetic radiation from the motor. When it detected that the tool had started it would send a signal to the unit on the vacuum to draw enough power from the power socket on the vacuum so that the vacuum started. Does anyone how much power has to be drawn? If you need to draw a lot of power, then this solution may not be feasible.
In newer (versions of) tools the bluethoot functionality could be built in, but should still be comatible with the accessory so you should be able to use a new tool with an old vac, and use old tools with new vacs.


You're prayers have been answered:

https://www.toolnut.com/festool/new-festool-tools/maxsys-wireless-remote-for-festool-ct-dust-extractors.html
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set | C18 5.2 Set w/Centrotec Installer's Set | RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set |  Won the CXS Li 2.6 90 Limited Edition on 06/20/2016 | Metric Parallel Guide Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | FS1400/2-LR 32 Guide Rail (x1) | Next  Purchase: A new sander by Christmas |

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1370
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 09:29 PM »
^^^^^^^

um, not really.   

While Rick's device is as good a solution as exists for Festool, it's not automatic and it's not what Lurveleven really wants.   He wants the vacuum to automatically start pulling when he pulls the trigger on his battery powered saw or sander. 

Maxsys is just a fancy long ranger that integrates into the CT vacs.  Very nicely , I might add.

My money is on Milwaukee.  They are already shipping tools that can be controlled by a smartphone app and have rudimentary feedback capability.  Makita would be the next logical player as they seem to be serious about both dust collection and cordless tools.

I'm still on the fence as to whether Festool has the ability to design such a system.  It seems clear they don't have the will right now given their recent focus on sanders and the drywall trades.

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 117
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 02:04 AM »
My money is on Milwaukee.  They are already shipping tools that can be controlled by a smartphone app and have rudimentary feedback capability.  Makita would be the next logical player as they seem to be serious about both dust collection and cordless tools.

You are on the money, there is a trade show in Austin at the moment. Makita are demonstrating their new AWS (auto-start wireless system) tools which sync via bluetooth with their vac (of course). Works on the cordless track saw, new cordless mitre saws, cordless vario speed angle grinder and cordless sds-max drill.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 655
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 04:28 AM »
I knew it wouldn't be long before someone came out with this. I had suggested it earlier this year but no doubt Makita  were already in development. Why FT has not brought this out or RTSystems created a device to work with their MAXSys remote I don't know. That's what prompted me to think of the remote, when I got the MAXSys for my CT-36. Seems like an easy add.

I was thinking along the lines of a remote that sensed vibration or the field generated when the tools' motor started then sent a signal to the vac to start or stop. Attach with some Velcro and you can move it form tool to tool or buy multiple sensors, one for each tool.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Lurveleven

  • Posts: 4
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 08:05 AM »
Good to see that something is happening in this area, I wasn't aware that Makita came with AWS. I already have a lot of Makita, but not in the dust producing category  :) I like to mix and match tools, so what I'm afraid of is that every manufacturer make their own system with incompatible protocols/APIs so that you cannot use a Makita AWS tool on another brands vac, or a non-Makita tool with a Makita AWS vac. They should really get together and make a standard! One big flaw with the Makita AWS system is that you cannot mix new and old, so there is still room for my proposed solution. We cannot renew many of our tools just for a feature like this.
I see now that my suggested solution doesn't have to be made by Festool, but can be made by an 3rd party producer like the MAXSys. The MAXSys is a long step in the right direction, but it is only compatible with Festool vacs, I have another vac (Blue Bosch branded Starmix) that I would like to be able to use the same way. One problem with my solution is that you cannot use it on a battery powered vac, therefore we need a standard.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 149
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 08:20 AM »
I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection.  If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride.  At least that way the vaunted Festool system with 1st rate dust collection works as intended.  As this discussion demonstrates, the cordless tool in this case creates new problems while offering no tangible benefits, unless you really enjoy charging and swapping out batteries.

Offline Lurveleven

  • Posts: 4
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection.

Working outside, I want/need the convenience of cordless and don't need dust extractor but instead use a dust bag. When working inside I always use dust extractor, but I don't want to buy two versions of the tool, one battery powered and one corded, instead I only want cordless.

Offline Jozsef Kozma

  • Posts: 110
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 09:32 AM »
Also here comes the cordless vacuum in play
Don’t have to look for outlets and one less tripping hazard
on the power cord (vacuum to outlet )

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1370
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 09:58 AM »
I fail to understand the concept of using a battery powered tool in an application that needs dust collection.  If the tool is necessarily tethered to a bulky dust collector hose that goes back to the dust collector, exactly what is the downside of having a slim power cord along for the ride.  At least that way the vaunted Festool system with 1st rate dust collection works as intended.  As this discussion demonstrates, the cordless tool in this case creates new problems while offering no tangible benefits, unless you really enjoy charging and swapping out batteries.


Then , what is one supposed to do with a product like FT's new ETSC sanders ?  Buy a vac , or just use the dust bag? 

And if the dust bag is so good and wonderful , why should I buy a Festool vac in the first place.   It offers no real benefit justifying its cost for cleaning up a jobsite afterwards because there is little mess anyway.   And why did Festool even venture into the vac hookup arena then?   I think a crappy canvas dust bags came with mitersaws and planers back in the early 80's.  Festools improvement on that would seem to alleviate the need for a vacuum under the don't need the vac because the bag is so good scenario.

The "system" is great if you're goal is simply to sell more tools. Buy one of each.  But, as Lurv points out , most people aren't going to go that route.  Too much cost and storage space involved.

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 117
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 03:39 PM »
I was thinking along the lines of a remote that sensed vibration

Metabo to the rescue - hose senses vibration (or sensor in hose attached to vac)and switches vac on, so works with any brand of tool.


I'm sure all the other brands will be on to this stuff in due course.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1115
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 04:34 PM »
Metabo to the rescue - hose senses vibration (or sensor in hose attached to vac) and switches vac on, so works with any brand of tool.
Now, this is a winner. Plus, manual switch is right there on the hose.
The sensor is connected to the vac with wire running along the hose. They could easily make it wireless.
Was that a charging station on top of the vac?

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 899
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2017, 05:53 PM »
At the start of the video you will also notice the Metabo Metaloc sys4, that is moved out of the way. Must be the new sys vac that Metabo said they were launching next year, apparently runs on both 18v and mains.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1370
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2017, 08:22 PM »
DB - looks like the big vac is battery powered too .

This should put a lot of pressure on the festool designers.

@TylerC - your colleagues are aware of this new tool , yes ?

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 995
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 08:25 PM »
@antss - We're aware.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1370
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2017, 10:57 PM »
So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 655
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 04:51 AM »
So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

I vote yes, but make it a hybrid and include the capability to recharge 2 batteries.
In cordless mode it would run off those same two batteries.

Build it in a SYS 5 or 6 box or better yet make it so you could repurpose a box you
already have by removing the lid and installing the vac on top. Then you could size
the vac to whatever capacity you need.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 178
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 07:19 AM »
Metabo also showed a much bigger (than a CTL-Sys) systainer-configured battery extractor with a much neater onboard battery compartment alongside the above Starmix format one.  This is I suspect an AC/DC vac.

Whether it actually charges on AC power is unknown but I suspect unlikely.  Just as long as it has an element of speed/suction variability & a more useful capacity to the rather puny CTL-Sys as well as the vibration sensors it's likely to be a winner.

With twin 8.0ah Li-HD batteries (cells slated for release by Sanyo Panasonic next year) it should have better suction & runtimes than most if not all competitors too.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 07:25 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Jmacpherson

  • Posts: 117
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 02:46 PM »
What I find interesting is Metabo claim their cordless vac matches their corded in terms of suction power.
Whereas the Makita 18v X2 AC/DC machine suction drops on pure battery power.

Would this be done to the Metabo battery tech that they could achieve that? Or did Makita maybe get there but go the longer run-time route and drop suction power/volume?

I'm looking forward to the rivals responding with their versions and their unique features/upgrades etc.
Interesting times

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 178
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 04:31 PM »
Those Samsung cells simply can't deliver the same levels of current as the more powerful Sanyo cells can.  One of the reasons why Makita batteries are so much cheaper than the rest.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1370
Re: Autostart of vacuum with battery tools
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 11:05 PM »
So, should we expect a CTC vac by the end of the decade ?

I vote yes, but make it a hybrid and include the capability to recharge 2 batteries.
In cordless mode it would run off those same two batteries

Build it in a SYS 5 or 6 box or better yet make it so you could repurpose a box you
already have by removing the lid and installing the vac on top. Then you could size
the vac to whatever capacity you need.

My fear is we'll just see another drywall sander and a new LED light along with an upgraded radio.

Because, after all, that's what Festool customers really want. 🙄
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:07 PM by antss »