Author Topic: lets design the next track saw  (Read 13127 times)

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Offline Alan m

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lets design the next track saw
« on: March 24, 2012, 03:33 PM »
hi there
given the reaction to the new ts55r
what features would you think the next one should have


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Offline fortrout

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 03:42 PM »
It needs to stay on the track when cutting on 45 or its no better than the saw they have sold us already.

Offline duburban

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 04:26 PM »
I keep thinking the new ts55 features are exactly what makita is already offering. Tilt lock, more power...
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 04:43 PM »
Are you Bored Alan?! Starting all these random topics which you know will be most likely start a massive debate lol



Well

I would like to see A new rail system to be honest but the New TS55 would still be backwards compatible to the old rail.

This would allow for more features to be added LIKE!  

1. Anti tilt so you dont have to worry once you let go the saw drops of the rail!

2. Using your CT vac to create suction on the rail so no clamps need for certain applications.  Once you stop cutting vac shuts down and rail can be lifted off

3. A second track closer to the splinter guard for clamping smaller stuff when needed

4. Markings along the rail would be handy.   You can have a couple stops front and back you place where you want!     So you marked out your cut out like a sink on a work top......  You place your rail on it you can see the markings near the splinter guard which run across the rail you can place your stops on the marks start and finish of the cut and you then just simply cut.   Pick the rail up place it on the other side on the marks and cut again.



Few more things but gotta go add them in a bit!

JMB
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 07:22 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline andvari

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2012, 05:06 PM »
Now that all of the blades have the same kerf I'd like to see a cutting guide mark for the off side of the blade.
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Offline neth27

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2012, 05:51 PM »
Here we go  [big grin]

Offline JimRay

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2012, 07:16 PM »

4. Markings along the rail would be handy.   You can have a couple stops front and back you place where you want!     So you marked out your cut out like a sink on a work top......  You place your rail on it you can marking near the splinter guard which run across the rail you can place your stops on the marks start and finished and you then just simply cut.   Pick the rail up place it on the other side on the marks and cut again.


JMB

Now that is a great idea! In the meantime, maybe I'll add one of those sticky backed measuring tapes to one of my tracks and give your idea a test run.

Jim Ray
Jim Ray

Offline Alan m

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2012, 09:31 PM »
Are you Bored Alan?! Starting all these random topics which you know will be most likely start a massive debate lol



Well

I would like to see A new rail system to be honest but the New TS55 would still be backwards compatible to the old rail.

This would allow for more features to be added LIKE! 

1. Anti tilt so you dont have to worry once you let go the saw drops of the rail!

2. Using your CT vac to create suction on the rail so no clamps need for certain applications.  Once you stop cutting vac shuts down and rail can be lifted off

3. A second track closer to the splinter guard for clamping smaller stuff when needed

4. Markings along the rail would be handy.   You can have a couple stops front and back you place where you want!     So you marked out your cut out like a sink on a work top......  You place your rail on it you can see the markings near the splinter guard which run across the rail you can place your stops on the marks start and finish of the cut and you then just simply cut.   Pick the rail up place it on the other side on the marks and cut again.



Few more things but gotta go add them in a bit!

JMB

bored . a bit i suppose.
a debate, yes but not the usual mafel is better stuff.


i like some of those ideas jmb


id like a bendy rail , like the mafel .
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Offline duburban

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2012, 09:58 PM »
i find this discussion curious from an industrial design point of view. what would does it cost festool to develop this technology and how much would you pay for it? perhaps some are brand loyal enough to stick with festool as the technology and prices climb but there has to be a price point that keeps it in the realm of justifiable. perhaps there could be levels of technology offered or add on's available after purchase for those that value those upgrades.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Charimon

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2012, 10:46 PM »

4. Markings along the rail would be handy.   You can have a couple stops front and back you place where you want!     So you marked out your cut out like a sink on a work top......  You place your rail on it you can see the markings near the splinter guard which run across the rail you can place your stops on the marks start and finish of the cut and you then just simply cut.   Pick the rail up place it on the other side on the marks and cut again.





Incra Nylon rules slide in and stay in place and allow you to place stops at defined distances,  If you have the rapid clamp set use the front stop to make a "0" stop on the underside of the rail

I originally put the rule in to make fluted trim
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:02 PM by Charimon »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 05:20 AM »

4. Markings along the rail would be handy.   You can have a couple stops front and back you place where you want!     So you marked out your cut out like a sink on a work top......  You place your rail on it you can see the markings near the splinter guard which run across the rail you can place your stops on the marks start and finish of the cut and you then just simply cut.   Pick the rail up place it on the other side on the marks and cut again.





Incra Nylon rules slide in and stay in place and allow you to place stops at defined distances,  If you have the rapid clamp set use the front stop to make a "0" stop on the underside of the rail

I originally put the rule in to make fluted trim

Yes Like that but I would like the markings to correspond with markings near the splinter guard also so  if you cant use the quick stops as a ''0''stop    you can just place the rail on the marks.   

 At the moment what I do is I tick a line with a pencil the position of the rail with he markings on the piece im cutting I then  Plunge the saw then I place my first stop while keeping the saw in position so I know the start of the cut  then I cut along untill I get to the end and stop leave my saw in position and place the end stop then for the rest of the cuts I just place the rail on the mark where I ticked on the rail and I can just cut  simples.

JMB
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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2012, 11:59 AM »
I hear people bringing up the Makita anti-tilt feature quiet often. What many of them don't realize is that this feature serves a purpose only when you are not using the saw. It stops the saw from falling over if you walk away from it. It doesn't serve a purpose during the cut. That's because if you let the saw ride against the anti-tilt rib, your bevel angle will be off. The absence of downward force on the rail will make this worse in the middle of a long cut. Knowing the way that Festool engineering thinks, I suspect that this is the reason why they have never incorporated an anti-tilt feature.

Offline Deansocial

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2012, 03:15 PM »
I hear people bringing up the Makita anti-tilt feature quiet often. What many of them don't realize is that this feature serves a purpose only when you are not using the saw. It stops the saw from falling over if you walk away from it. It doesn't serve a purpose during the cut. That's because if you let the saw ride against the anti-tilt rib, your bevel angle will be off. The absence of downward force on the rail will make this worse in the middle of a long cut. Knowing the way that Festool engineering thinks, I suspect that this is the reason why they have never incorporated an anti-tilt feature.

yeah but i wonder how many people have droped a saw due to the lack o this feature, i know i have and it cost me a new bevel gauge as a result.

Offline Quercus

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 03:02 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but why the fascination with anti-tilt, just hold the machine while the adjustment is made. I tried the new TS55R at eco-build and it is good.

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 03:24 PM »
I hear people bringing up the Makita anti-tilt feature quiet often. What many of them don't realize is that this feature serves a purpose only when you are not using the saw. It stops the saw from falling over if you walk away from it. It doesn't serve a purpose during the cut. That's because if you let the saw ride against the anti-tilt rib, your bevel angle will be off. The absence of downward force on the rail will make this worse in the middle of a long cut. Knowing the way that Festool engineering thinks, I suspect that this is the reason why they have never incorporated an anti-tilt feature.

yeah but i wonder how many people have droped a saw due to the lack o this feature, i know i have and it cost me a new bevel gauge as a result.

+1     I dropped mine because of the lack of anti tilt once when I first tilted the saw for the first time.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 03:32 PM »
I hear people bringing up the Makita anti-tilt feature quiet often. What many of them don't realize is that this feature serves a purpose only when you are not using the saw. It stops the saw from falling over if you walk away from it. It doesn't serve a purpose during the cut. That's because if you let the saw ride against the anti-tilt rib, your bevel angle will be off. The absence of downward force on the rail will make this worse in the middle of a long cut. Knowing the way that Festool engineering thinks, I suspect that this is the reason why they have never incorporated an anti-tilt feature.


I know what the anti tilt is for to stop my saw from falling of  nothing more   

 but your basically saying Festool thinks we (TS users) are idiots and are unable of knowing what the anti tilt is for so to avoid people calling up saying the saw doesnt cut at the correct angle unless I hold it down my self etc....     

so  Festool thought to avoid TS users (idiots) calling!  they decided not to bother adding the anti tilt to avoid this hassle.   

umm... yeah thats the reason why festool didnt stick the anti tilt on.

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2012, 03:34 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but why the fascination with anti-tilt, just hold the machine while the adjustment is made. I tried the new TS55R at eco-build and it is good.


....  not just while the adjustment is made  you have to hold it even after you have adjusted it to the angle you want.    You have to hold it untill you remove of from the rail  unless you want it falling onto the floor.


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Offline Alan m

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2012, 05:41 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 05:48 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Funny you say that!  I needed that feature to day!  

I was making 80mm rips   2400mm long        18mm MDF with a 45 degree cuts on both edges   but cus it only tilts one way I had to place the rail on the off cut which isnt ideal.    Any way after cutting two I quit!  Even though my TS55 had a decent blade in wasnt too worn but after cutting them first two pieces it was very worn lol  Black!!! my TS stopped working and needed cooling down  [embarassed]

I changed tactic!  I decided to just cut 80mm strips square  then using my CMS module with OF2200 router and my large 45 degree cutter   made a much better job and quicker and no burning and less hassle.


JMB
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Offline Alex

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2012, 05:51 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Where do you leave the motor?

Offline Alan m

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2012, 05:59 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Where do you leave the motor?
if the motor come out and when back at 90 degrees it would free up some space for it to tilt in.
maybe mount the motor at 45' and higher  and use a few gears to bring the power down.
im sure they could come up with something.

while we are at it i would like it to tilt both ways
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2012, 06:02 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Where do you leave the motor?
if the motor come out and when back at 90 degrees it would free up some space for it to tilt in.
maybe mount the motor at 45' and higher  and use a few gears to bring the power down.
im sure they could come up with something.

while we are at it i would like it to tilt both ways

Then maybe you should just ask them to make it worm drive with the motor facing backwards towards the user like a Skil saw?

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2012, 06:29 PM »
I hear people bringing up the Makita anti-tilt feature quiet often. What many of them don't realize is that this feature serves a purpose only when you are not using the saw. It stops the saw from falling over if you walk away from it. It doesn't serve a purpose during the cut. That's because if you let the saw ride against the anti-tilt rib, your bevel angle will be off. The absence of downward force on the rail will make this worse in the middle of a long cut. Knowing the way that Festool engineering thinks, I suspect that this is the reason why they have never incorporated an anti-tilt feature.

I know what the anti tilt is for to stop my saw from falling of  nothing more   

 but your basically saying Festool thinks we (TS users) are idiots and are unable of knowing what the anti tilt is for so to avoid people calling up saying the saw doesnt cut at the correct angle unless I hold it down my self etc....     

so  Festool thought to avoid TS users (idiots) calling!  they decided not to bother adding the anti tilt to avoid this hassle.   

umm... yeah thats the reason why festool didnt stick the anti tilt on.


I didn't call you or anyone else an idiot. I said that the anti-tilt feature works only when the tool is not being used. Most people that do not have the Makita saw don't realize this. They think it functions while the saw is in operation. As you said previously, you dropped your saw once. If you had said that you repeatedly dropped your saw, then maybe I might have called you....ummm....spatially challenged?  [big grin] [big grin] 

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 06:39 PM »
No Rick.  Butter fingers.  [big grin]

Offline ART at WORK

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 07:52 PM »
I very much Like the ideas JMB. Especialy the vacume rail.
I would like the saw to have a LED light on it to light up that little mark on the side.
Also to help you see the marks on the wood to line up the rail in low light places.
It of course can be turned on or off.



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Offline fdengel

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2012, 07:13 AM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Resulting in the blade pointing toward the user?

Offline Reiska

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2012, 08:18 AM »
How about laser lines that dynamically adjust to the depth of the plunge and mark where the front and the back end of the blade run at any given plunge depth?

This would blast away the static markings on the side of the saw (like Mafell has) that define where the blades extents are at full depth plunge while doing holes in the middle of a table top.
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Offline fdengel

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2012, 09:28 AM »
How about laser lines that dynamically adjust to the depth of the plunge and mark where the front and the back end of the blade run at any given plunge depth?

At the top or the bottom of the workpiece?

Or maybe use different colors of lasers to show the extents at the top vs. the bottom?

Offline Reiska

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2012, 09:49 AM »
Well, I would presume that the top width would be most beneficial. Of course more the merrier =)
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Offline andvari

  • Posts: 423
Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 10:22 AM »
hi there
given the reaction to the new ts55r
what features would you think the next one should have


A slightly longer standard guide rail. The 1400 guide rail isn't long enough to cross cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood without the guide gibs coming off the rail.
TS55, Domino 500, Domino Assortment, OF1400, CT36+Boom Arm, T12+3, FS3000, Parallel Guides, RO 90, ETS 150/3, Domino XL, Domiplate, LS130, RTS Guide Stop, CMS-GE, Carvex 420

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 12:49 PM »
A slightly longer standard guide rail. The 1400 guide rail isn't long enough to cross cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood without the guide gibs coming off the rail.

The 1400 rail will work, you just need to plunge the saw at the beginning of the cut.  I do agree a longer rail is good idea, I'm thinking a 1500 or 1600 rail would be much better.
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Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline andvari

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 03:51 PM »
A slightly longer standard guide rail. The 1400 guide rail isn't long enough to cross cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood without the guide gibs coming off the rail.

The 1400 rail will work, you just need to plunge the saw at the beginning of the cut.  I do agree a longer rail is good idea, I'm thinking a 1500 or 1600 rail would be much better.

Yes, that's what I have been doing. The problem with that is that you get a bit of a kickback when you plunge, and there isn't space for the stop, or the cord/hose guides on the end of the rail in this application. It may be a bit picky but this is a Festool so I feel entitled to be this way about it.

The more I think about it the more I think the 75" rail should be standard with this saw.


« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:56 PM by andvari »
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 07:05 PM »
How about laser lines that dynamically adjust to the depth of the plunge and mark where the front and the back end of the blade run at any given plunge depth?

This would blast away the static markings on the side of the saw (like Mafell has) that define where the blades extents are at full depth plunge while doing holes in the middle of a table top.

Yeah I like that idea!!!!   You set the depth of your blade and the lasers automatically adjust  so you know when you plunge your blade where it starts and ends! 

... Im liking tha idea!!!

JMB
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Offline Captainwrinkles

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2012, 07:27 PM »
I'd like an exact opposite of the saw ( a mirror image of the current ts55r) i.e. a saw that slides down the track the other way. A few times that would have come in really handy (like trimming the side of a countertop that had a solid edge on the front). And also being right handed, it might make it easier for me to use.

Offline andvari

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2012, 06:27 PM »
Continuation of my theme that the 1400mm rail is too short for basic use, today I went to cut down a 4' wide sheet of plywood into shelving using the parallel guides.

The 1400mm rail is too short for this purpose! You cannot get both of the outside brass screws on the rail if you have a 4' wide piece of wood between the rails. And it's close too. Another inch and it would work.

I ended up dragging out my 3000mm rail - but there really shouldn't have been a need to do that. 

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 06:30 PM »
Continuation of my theme that the 1400mm rail is too short for basic use, today I went to cut down a 4' wide sheet of plywood into shelving using the parallel guides.

The 1400mm rail is too short for this purpose! You cannot get both of the outside brass screws on the rail if you have a 4' wide piece of wood between the rails. And it's close too. Another inch and it would work.

I ended up dragging out my 3000mm rail - but there really shouldn't have been a need to do that. 



I wish it was the same length as the Mafell rail which comes with the saw! When using the Mafell saw for a little bit I found the extra length rail was really handy but didnt cause any inconvenience due to it being slightly longer.  So I dont see why festool dont make it 100mm or 200 mm longer. 

JMB
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Offline Chris Wong

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2012, 09:25 PM »
2. Using your CT vac to create suction on the rail so no clamps need for certain applications.  Once you stop cutting vac shuts down and rail can be lifted off

JMB

The only problem with this is that, assuming that the TS controls the vacuum, you need to align the rail, then turn on the saw without bumping the rail.  I think that a vacuum-clamping rail would be better with a separate on/off vacuum switch.
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Offline fdengel

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2012, 07:49 AM »
One problem with plunge cuts using a circular blade is that the width of the cut (front to back) changes with depth, making it hard to accurately place the saw for the start and end of the cut... plus the surface the saw/track sits on will be cut further than the bottom surface, so if you try cutting a square out from the middle of a piece, assuming you somehow manage to place the saw correctly, either the top will be cut further than the edges of the square, or the bottom will need additional cuts to be made to finish taking the square out.

How can we resolve these deficiencies?

That might make a saw worthy of upgrading to...

Offline ama

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2012, 05:16 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Don't forget that you need to pivot around the bottom of the strip if you want the nice right-on-your-pencil-line cut that we all know and love. Tilting the saw inwards would cut into the strip. How does the R manage its -1 degree?

Offline Alan m

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Re: lets design the next track saw
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2012, 06:45 PM »
maybe the next ts caould tilt in wards so that the weight is still over the rail.

Don't forget that you need to pivot around the bottom of the strip if you want the nice right-on-your-pencil-line cut that we all know and love. Tilting the saw inwards would cut into the strip. How does the R manage its -1 degree?

thats a good question. i never thought about it. it must move the bottom of the blade away or something. or maybe we just dont notice it.
tilting inwards should work. it is only the botom edge of the splinter guards that we need, if the top is angled in from cutting it shouldnt matter. althow it might weaken the strip reducing the ability to stop chips. probably need a stronger stripping
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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