Author Topic: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???  (Read 13434 times)

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Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« on: February 02, 2015, 12:19 PM »
That's what I'd like to see.

I have a couple of 18V tools at the moment, with a total of 3 batteries (2x 4.2Ah, and 1x 3Ah). If I get enough in the tool budget, I'm planning on buying more cordless tools (TSC 55 and BHC 18, plus I suspect there'll be more 18v tools coming later this year). with Li-Ion developing as it is, and brushless motors, I think cordless is the future.

The current charger (TCL3) takes well over an hour to charge an empty 4.2Ah battery. I haven't timed it but it does seem slow - maybe even slower than the older, slightly larger charger? It's that bad sometimes that I end up not fully charging them, because I don't have time to wait. With the cordless Carvex working hard, it's quite easy to empty 2 full batteries before the 3rd has charged (exacerbated by the fact that when you do work them hard, the batteries have to cool down before you can charge them!).

With the new 5.2Ah batteries, it's going to take around 20% longer again.

How about a quicker charger? It's great having larger capacity batteries, as it means they'll need charging less often. But if it takes an age to charge them it's going to get old very quickly.

I think the 'reasonable limit' on charging time is around 40-45 minutes - I don't think given the competition that over an hour is acceptable (the new Makita 5.0Ah batteries charge inside 45 minutes). If they can do it, I'm sure Festool can.

In fact, while were on the subject, make it a 'double' charger for charging 2 batteries at once. That's definitely needed for the TSC anyway, shipping it with 2x single chargers was a bit of a cop-out. [tongue]

I'm not too bothered about the physical size either, make it a bit bigger if it helps. Even if it needs it's own systainer. Heck, maybe even built in to a systainer? Plus a fan for cooling, if that helps. It doesn't even need to replace the existing charger - the tools could be shipped with the TCL3, with the 'rapid charging station' as an extra.

So, a rapid charging station, to charge 2 batteries in under 45 minutes (5.2Ah). How hard can it be? [poke]
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

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Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 12:41 PM »
The quickest of quick chargers are aircooled as you noted, but there are air channels in the battery pack to allow for the air to flow through the pack, not just around it. Makita was first on this a while back, and Metabo has adopted this as well. However Makita will "only" push them at 5A while Metabo will bring it up to 6.5A peak, and lower the amperage as it nears full capacity.

It would most likely require a new battery platform to get there for Festool to get on that level, I'm not sure any of you would want that.

Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 01:20 PM »
Here's some more data, using 4.0Ah as a benchmark:

Makita DC18RD will bring a 4Ah to full charge in 40 minutes
Metabo ASC Ultra will do a 4Ah in 35 mins
Bosch just recently introduced their "coolpack", which doesn't have internal cooling channels, but has a "super heat conductive polymer" on the bottom. It takes 45 minutes to get to 4Ah to full, despite pushing 1A higher than the Makita (which means they spend not nearly as much time at full amperage).

So I guess not bad. Maybe Festool should license the super conductive polymer idea from Bosch.


To be fair, we don't know how long any of these charge cycles are affecting battery longevity. Tesla (or was it Nissan) said that when quick chargers were used, it would cut battery life by HALF.  [eek]
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 01:23 PM by sae »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 01:42 PM »
Makita DC18RD will bring a 4Ah to full charge in 40 minutes

According to Makita UK, the standard charger over here (DC18RC) will charge a 4Ah in 36 minutes, and 5Ah in 45 minutes.
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline tony_sheehan

  • Posts: 103
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 02:15 PM »
Also, remember we're not talking NiCad's here: you don't need to charge them to the max- partial charge won't cause any harm.

Online GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1638
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 02:19 PM »
The current charger (TCL3) takes well over an hour to charge an empty 4.2Ah battery.

The TCL 3 can charge a 4.2Ah battery in 70 minutes.

With the new 5.2Ah batteries, it's going to take around 20% longer again.

The 5.2Ah batteries will take 90 minutes, although they reach 80% charge at 70 minutes.

Offline SMJoinery

  • Posts: 528
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 02:29 PM »
90 minutes is fine, I'll put one on to charge over lunch!! [drooling]

Offline MAK

  • Posts: 130
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 05:02 PM »
90 minutes is fine, I'll put one on to charge over lunch!! [drooling]
90 min lunch???
If you have 30min t break at 10 and 3 as well, can I come and work for you? ?
My current boss doesn't let me stop for breaks, I have to eat while working [crying]
PS, I'm self-employed
Kapex & UG, TSR55, MFT3, OF1400, C15, CXS, Carvex, Midi, T18, EHL65
Rts400, CTL26, TSC55,  BHC18

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 907
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 03:59 AM »
Yep 70mins to charge the 4.2 bats, that's why when using the TSC 55 you need a min of at least 4 bats and that's just dedicated to the saw, so if your using a drill and maybe  a Carvex or something else, that's six bats on the go and two chargers working away. I'm impressed with the TSC but you have only got to think of making a cut and the battery level goes down one.

 Yep bring on faster chargers.

Offline Darren1972

  • Posts: 289
  • When all else fails use a big hammer
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2015, 05:28 PM »
Buy another battery and charger sorted

Offline Gwerner

  • Posts: 235
  • They call me George...
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2015, 05:33 PM »
An important thing to keep in mind regarding charge times is that higher charge rates, i.e. faster charge times, reduces the number of charge cycles a battery can withstand.

Personally I'll deal with the longer charging times if it means my battery lasts longer before having to replace it.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3402
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2015, 05:33 PM »
+1 for double battery charger.  Maybe they could integrate this feature into a Festool jobsite radio!


In fact, while were on the subject, make it a 'double' charger for charging 2 batteries at once. That's definitely needed for the TSC anyway, shipping it with 2x single chargers was a bit of a cop-out. [tongue]

Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 05:54 PM »
What high drain tools are you guys using that need you to be hot swapping batteries so quickly, Festool doesn't make any real tools like grinders and such that are the real battery killers?

Pretty sure my drill battery goes a week before I have to swap.

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 907
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 09:00 PM »
What high drain tools are you guys using that need you to be hot swapping batteries so quickly, Festool doesn't make any real tools like grinders and such that are the real battery killers?

Pretty sure my drill battery goes a week before I have to swap.

TSC 55 is probably the biggest battery killer that Festool make, eats two batteries pretty quickly if the stock your cutting is quite thick. I can easily get through four batteries in one day and that's just with the TSC in use, throw in a Carvex and that will eat another battery.
 Yesterday I charged three Makita 3ah batteries quicker than it took for one Festool 4.2ah battery to charge. So yes faster double battery chargers are definitely needed now the bigger draw tools are out there.

Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 10:10 PM »
Doh. Forgot about the TSC/HKC. That makes sense.

Offline amcore

  • Posts: 35
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 07:19 AM »
Well i dont know if this is already out here on FOG but Festool has registred a trademark for AIRSTREAM( yea same name like the abrasive thingie but this is diffrent)

http://www.trademarkia.com/airstream-79164602.html


so maby this is a fast charger for Festool batteries? (or/and new type of batteries like makitas whit airintake for the charger?




They have also reigstred QUADRIVE?!? and SYSROCK  (the new Festool radio in KAL light size)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:32 AM by amcore »
Festool addicted!

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1173
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 07:46 AM »
Quadrive is the family name for the heavy drills DRC and PDC.
It refers to the 4 speed gearbox they both have.
It's also printed on the side of the drill (some of them).
It dates from the time both of these drills were sold under the Protool brand from around 2009.
Festoolian since 1998.
FESTOOL:
SYSROCK BR10 | SYSLITE KAL II | SV-SYS D14 | DSC-AG125FH | CDD9.6 | SYSLITE DUO | DF700 | HKC55 | TXS2.6 | CTL SYS | CXS2.6 | DWC18 | CTWings | BHC18 | CS50 | CMS-OF | MFT/3 | MFT/3-VL | KS120 | TS55 R | PSC420 | PS420 | BS75 | RAS115 | RO90 | RO150 | DTS400 | RS400 | RTS400 | RS300 | LS130 | DX93 | ETS150/5 | ETS150/3 | OF1010 | OF1400 | OFK500 | MFK700 | T18 | EHL65 | CTL26 | CTL22 | CTL MIDI | WCR1000 | D27-AS Plug-it | D36 UNI-RS | D36x7 | D50x2.5 | FS800 | FS800/2 | FS1080/2 | FS1400/2 (2x) | FS3000/2 | FSK250 | FSK420 | Gecko Dosh | Toolie | CE-SYS-2010 | RB-SYS CART (2x) | LEV1400 | LEV350 | SYS-MFT
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Offline amcore

  • Posts: 35
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 10:12 AM »
Quadrive is the family name for the heavy drills DRC and PDC.
It refers to the 4 speed gearbox they both have.
It's also printed on the side of the drill (some of them).
It dates from the time both of these drills were sold under the Protool brand from around 2009.


Yes i know that :) i have the quadrive both festool and protool version! Quadrive trademark are set 7/21/2015 so i only speculating if they have something else in the pipeline for that when quadrive machines are way older, but maybe they only registred it now! think if black and decker take it  [scared]
Festool addicted!

Offline Darren1972

  • Posts: 289
  • When all else fails use a big hammer
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2015, 02:57 PM »
What high drain tools are you guys using that need you to be hot swapping batteries so quickly, Festool doesn't make any real tools like grinders and such that are the real battery killers?

Pretty sure my drill battery goes a week before I have to swap.
tsc 55 eats them 5.2 ah batteries in two hours max

Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2015, 01:53 PM »
The saws seem to be the machines that will run your batteries flat faster than you can charge up a pair - and you would need TWO chargers too!

Despite that I am not too sure on super fast charging of batteries - seems that it would shorten the life span and/or make them less potent pretty quick. They would probably have a faster cut off time (in percentage of capacity drain before safety cut off) to enable fast charging. There aren't too many free lunches in the battery world.

I think the synergy between "efficient" machine construction (thinner blade, single battery, as with the HKC55) and stretching the battery technology is the best marriage for high drainage battery machines. For that reason I am not too impressed with the dual battery solutions. I do think they do their job on site though.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2015, 02:45 PM »
@Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits

From what I've been told/read of the lithium manganese cobalt cells (and most lithium cells in general), the greater enemy actually isn't the charge/discharge rate itself, but the heat associated with high amperage inputs/outputs that causes the cell the break down (80 C/176 F being the absolute limit the cells should reach). Tesla's new P85D has a mode that allows it to dump huge amount of amperage for a short period of time, something equivalent to ~800 hp, and the challenge there was not the cells themselves, but optimizing the liquid cooling for the cells.

With carefully ramped and monitored charging, it's possible to turbocharge the beginning of the charge cycle without adding a bunch of heat, and taper the amperage as the cells get more full. Add active cooling as Makita and Metabo have, and you can push even higher amperages without cell degradation.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 02:53 PM by sae »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2015, 05:56 PM »
Despite that I am not too sure on super fast charging of batteries - seems that it would shorten the life span and/or make them less potent pretty quick. They would probably have a faster cut off time (in percentage of capacity drain before safety cut off) to enable fast charging. There aren't too many free lunches in the battery world.

Watched a video yesterday about a Bosch Professional cordless electric lawnmower. It uses 2x 36V, 6Ah batteries, and they charge, from empty, in 20 minutes.
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2015, 09:54 PM »
Despite that I am not too sure on super fast charging of batteries - seems that it would shorten the life span and/or make them less potent pretty quick. They would probably have a faster cut off time (in percentage of capacity drain before safety cut off) to enable fast charging. There aren't too many free lunches in the battery world.

Watched a video yesterday about a Bosch Professional cordless electric lawnmower. It uses 2x 36V, 6Ah batteries, and they charge, from empty, in 20 minutes.

@jonny round boy

The 36V Stihl gear comes with a choice of 3 chargers (with three corresponding costs!). I got the faster of the 3 and it charges the batteries a lot faster than I can use them up!

I think the cordless gardening market is going to seriously push battery and charger tech along .. a lot of the current cordless tool manufacturers have got a bit lazy IMO.

Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015, 02:58 PM »
@Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits

From what I've been told/read of the lithium manganese cobalt cells (and most lithium cells in general), the greater enemy actually isn't the charge/discharge rate itself, but the heat associated with high amperage inputs/outputs that causes the cell the break down (80 C/176 F being the absolute limit the cells should reach). Tesla's new P85D has a mode that allows it to dump huge amount of amperage for a short period of time, something equivalent to ~800 hp, and the challenge there was not the cells themselves, but optimizing the liquid cooling for the cells.

With carefully ramped and monitored charging, it's possible to turbocharge the beginning of the charge cycle without adding a bunch of heat, and taper the amperage as the cells get more full. Add active cooling as Makita and Metabo have, and you can push even higher amperages without cell degradation.

I am not that worried about fast discharge but I am not that confident in very fast "forced" charging of batteries. It will generate heat and even if tapered down towards the end heat is the enemy for long term stability. I think.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2015, 03:02 PM »
Despite that I am not too sure on super fast charging of batteries - seems that it would shorten the life span and/or make them less potent pretty quick. They would probably have a faster cut off time (in percentage of capacity drain before safety cut off) to enable fast charging. There aren't too many free lunches in the battery world.

Watched a video yesterday about a Bosch Professional cordless electric lawnmower. It uses 2x 36V, 6Ah batteries, and they charge, from empty, in 20 minutes.

Yes, but when they are "empty" I am sure they still have a lot of juice left in them. Seems they have a limiter / cut off with room to spare to allow for fast charging. Bosch are touting the "Cool Pack" with more air and more air flow to compensate for high heat when charging. Bosch own literature states that batteries will wear out fast when stored or exposed to temperatures higher than 50 degrees (Celsius) if I remember right. Charging batteries outside on a hot summers day building a deck comes to mind as a high drainage and forced charging situation.  In the next few months I am not worried, I can throw the batteries in a pile of snow and force charge it in five minutes and keep the pack Cool. ;)
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline Des##NZ

  • Posts: 1
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2017, 12:36 AM »
90 minutes is fine, I'll put one on to charge over lunch!! [drooling]
90 min lunch???
If you have 30min t break at 10 and 3 as well, can I come and work for you? ?
My current boss doesn't let me stop for breaks, I have to eat while working [crying]
PS, I'm self-employed

90 mins, your obviously not self employed or on price work. Give it up 45 should be max, just bought the TSC55, did less than 20 mtr flat two batteries. (MDF 18mm).
I hope that the tool will bed in and get better life.
Any comments welcome

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 275
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2017, 09:03 AM »
Ironically, given that Lithium batteries are an "upgrade" over previous battery systems, the older NiCd batteries could usually be charged in 15-20 minutes, or sometimes less,  with high amperage "Ultra-Rapid" chargers, and the batteries supposedly would last thru 2 to 3 times as many charging cycles over using regular "1 hour" chargers.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2017, 10:24 AM »
I think charge times have increased due to higher Ah batteries taking more time to charge. But Festool has introduced Airstream that should considerably reduce charge times.

Seth

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1429
Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 10:07 PM »
Maybe our resident EE @Rick Christopherson can give us some insite on all this voltage amperage temperature timing stuff ?  [unsure]


Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: New, Quicker Charger for 18V Batteries???
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 10:56 PM »
Maybe our resident EE @Rick Christopherson can give us some insite on all this voltage amperage temperature timing stuff ?  [unsure]
Ironically, given that Lithium batteries are an "upgrade" over previous battery systems, the older NiCd batteries could usually be charged in 15-20 minutes, or sometimes less,  with high amperage "Ultra-Rapid" chargers, and the batteries supposedly would last thru 2 to 3 times as many charging cycles over using regular "1 hour" chargers.

Well there's your first clue. Lithium batteries are an upgrade only as it pertains to the weight of the battery, but NiCd and NiMH actually have higher amperage densities. Each new technology is in high demand only because some marketing department (many companies) convinces people they need it.

It's not unique to just batteries. Most industries are this way. I've been saying for decades that the sanders you all own are not the best for the purpose, but are simply what marketing had driven.  [tongue]