Author Topic: Perhaps a silly idea.....  (Read 6165 times)

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Offline GhostFist

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Perhaps a silly idea.....
« on: November 17, 2010, 09:29 PM »
was just thinking about the new Carvex that's yet to be released here I understand there are two options, corded, and cordless. Seeing as Festool uses a plug it power cord on a lot of their tools is it silly to want one that does both? Is it possible? If it's a good idea can I have one for free seeing as I thought of it?

Ardbeg is delicious BTW

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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 10:47 PM »
Sorry Ghost.  You've been beaten to the punch, however, it seemed only Greg thought my idea was good.  I guess the few of us are just too far out there.  [wink]

Offline MightyPuffin

  • Posts: 2
Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 05:54 AM »
Perhaps future electrical Festools will all be based on brushless motors and a separate power supply, like the Mirka Ceros or Bosch C-EXACT. The transformer for the tools would be built into the vacs and every tool would get a weight reduction and the possibility of clipping a battery to run cordless.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2010, 04:02 PM »
Perhaps future electrical Festools will all be based on brushless motors and a separate power supply, like the Mirka Ceros or Bosch C-EXACT. The transformer for the tools would be built into the vacs and every tool would get a weight reduction and the possibility of clipping a battery to run cordless.

I like the way you think, great post. BTW, congrats on your first post!
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 04:04 PM »
Sorry Ghost.  You've been beaten to the punch, however, it seemed only Greg thought my idea was good.  I guess the few of us are just too far out there.  [wink]

You're not alone, I really like the idea of corded/cordless model too.  I can't help be think the reason you've no seen them is the fact that they'd rather sell us one of each.....
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Wood_Junkie

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 04:24 PM »
Sorry Ghost.  You've been beaten to the punch, however, it seemed only Greg thought my idea was good.  I guess the few of us are just too far out there.  [wink]

You're not alone, I really like the idea of corded/cordless model too.  I can't help be think the reason you've no seen them is the fact that they'd rather sell us one of each.....

There’s been a lot of talk about this on some other boards I frequented.  In particular, it’s sprouted up on the Ridgid tool forum several times over the last few years.

Someone with some electrical engineering posted that the main problem is the DC vs. AC interfacing, and amperage.  Something along the lines of the amp output that DC provides is significantly higher, and the transformer need to convert AC into DC at that level would be rather large.  It’s not like a little AC adapter for your laptop.

Anyway, that’s the extent of my memory and knowledge regarding this.  Perhaps Rick C. or others with this kind of expertise could weigh in.  I’m fairly certain tool companies would love this type of setup, as manufacturing is greatly simplified with just one model, and they just charge you an exhorbitant amount for the adapter (witness cell phones…)

Offline harry_

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2010, 05:51 PM »
All of that can be stuffed into a module matching the form factor of a battery. Under 5 amps is generally considered 'low current' and could be done via solid state electronics.

The reason this is not done IMO is:

1). what Bryce said  ;D
2). although many will argue this, cordless tools are not really "production tools". They are primarily designed to be fast and flexible.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2010, 06:23 PM »
I like the idea of having the whole transformer clip into the battery slot you could make the tool usable in all regions, just clip in the appropriate transformer pack.
I still feel I deserve a free one no matter what you guys say though ;D

Offline Greg Powers

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2010, 08:04 PM »
You're not alone, I really like the idea of corded/cordless model too.  I can't help be think the reason you've no seen them is the fact that they'd rather sell us one of each.....

If that was true then why does Festool make the dual-purpose Rotex or the new Rotex 90 with thee modes?
Greg Powers
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Offline MightyPuffin

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2010, 03:41 AM »
I like the way you think, great post. BTW, congrats on your first post!
Thanks Brice, but it's easy when you can see the future. Two words for the unconvinced: nuclear vac. Bonus word: Coffeetainer.

Offline GhostFist

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2010, 07:15 AM »
Coffeetainer is a great idea! A premium coffee maker for the job site that's rugged some how keeps all the important bits dust free, and stackable for easy transport. Engineers get cracking!

Offline jvsteenb

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2010, 07:56 AM »
All of that can be stuffed into a module matching the form factor of a battery. Under 5 amps is generally considered 'low current' and could be done via solid state electronics.

The power stated for the corded Carvex is 500 Watts. To get that much out of a 14.4 V battery would draw a current of almost 35 Amps ( full power ).
To make a transformer/power converter being able to supply that current within the size of the battery pack and with decent bullet-proof cooling, would be quite a challenge given the state of technology. It would certainly move the machine far out of the "affordable, be it only just" range, even if it was possible to engineer at the moment.
Perhaps some kind of hybrid technology using supercaps as a temporary buffer for high current bursts would be a solution, but then again: we expect full power from a corded tool, with full duty-cycle.

It may not be as easy as you think, just my usual 2 eurocents.


Regards,

Job
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2010, 09:04 AM »
Ya I never thought it would be easy. I make things out of wood and have a minimal understanding of how anything else works but I've a growing interest in understanding electronics and machinery as I dream to have the ability to make anything out of anything. Needless to say, if there's a will there's a way. If the product can be produced effectively at a cost less than the price of two festool jigsaws then I feel it's worth it, provided there aren't any sacrifices in performance. Take a look at the computing power in the average smart phone these days, it would have taken serious square footage of noisy clunky old computers to do a quarter of the operations we now slip into our pockets just 30 years ago. If demand exists, it can be built. So here are the requirements;
-full power when in corded mode while maintaining ergonomics
-no less functionality in cordless mode such as a reduction in performance of current cordless products
- a price point less than that of purchasing two separate models
- cross regional voltage conversion packs. I want the ability to use my tool here in Canada then hop over to England and steal their jobs without having to re purchase equipment just a separate conversion pack
 
Festool scientists get to work!!

Offline harry_

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2010, 09:48 AM »
All of that can be stuffed into a module matching the form factor of a battery. Under 5 amps is generally considered 'low current' and could be done via solid state electronics.

The power stated for the corded Carvex is 500 Watts. To get that much out of a 14.4 V battery would draw a current of almost 35 Amps ( full power ).
To make a transformer/power converter being able to supply that current within the size of the battery pack and with decent bullet-proof cooling, would be quite a challenge given the state of technology. It would certainly move the machine far out of the "affordable, be it only just" range, even if it was possible to engineer at the moment.
Perhaps some kind of hybrid technology using supercaps as a temporary buffer for high current bursts would be a solution, but then again: we expect full power from a corded tool, with full duty-cycle.

It may not be as easy as you think, just my usual 2 eurocents.


Regards,

Job


Yes, but what is the stated power for the cordless carvex? I haven't looked but considering that the Ah rating of a cordless battery is only 1-3 Ah depending on the battery....
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline fdengel

  • Posts: 854
Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2010, 11:10 AM »
Some of the higher-voltage drills apparently allow you to use lower-voltage batteries and simply "downgrade" themselves to the lower model when those batteries are attached.

Could a similar technique be applied here?

Offline jvsteenb

  • Posts: 363
Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2010, 02:43 PM »
Yes, but what is the stated power for the cordless carvex? I haven't looked but considering that the Ah rating of a cordless battery is only 1-3 Ah depending on the battery....

Good question. Seeing that the specifications of the corded and cordless version ( re. cut depth, etc. ) are the same, I would assume the power of the cordless version would be more or less in the same ballpark as the corded one.

Remember the Ah rating says something about the total capacity of a charged battery, but nothing about the maximum current draw.
A 3 Ah battery will ideally deliver 3 Amps for an hour, or 30 Amps for 6 minutes.  Put in the form of a car metaphore: the Ah rating states the capacity of the fuel tank, and has little to do with the maximum power output of the car (tool).

Regards,

Job
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Perhaps a silly idea.....
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2010, 02:59 PM »
While I can't say I've ever discussed the inards of Festool's corded and cordless motors with their technical staff, I know from discussions with other manufacturers that the corded and cordless motors are 2 totally different animals and their power demands/needs are different as well.  Instead of us trying to figure out how to do it, just leave it for Festool's engineers should they find our idea worthy.  It's been said that's why Apple has been so successful and produces products with fewer problems.  The designers come up with what they believe the public wants, then tell the engineers to figure out how to make it happen.  We're essentially doing just that on this forum.