I've asked about this a number of times and the answer to-date has been "too expensive to produce in the quality that Festool owners would accept", more or less. I really do want "native" square/Robertson drive bits as I use those fasteners exclusively when I have the choice. I've "made" some from off-the-shelf bits using my lathe and a file to make do, but it's just not the same as a native solution. Very frustrating.

This is odd to me. I won't even consider Festool drills until they adopt Robertson bits. In Canada they're the standard for wood screws, and for good reason.

Why would it be too expensive, and who exactly told you so? I can't see why a Robertson bit would have a different cost than a Pozidrive, Torx or a Philips.

And if you're desperate to have one, what so difficult about making one yourself? As far as I know, the square is one of the most basic geometric forms. All you need is a steady bench grinder. Take an existing Centrotec bit and grind it down to a square. Easy as pie.


What exactly is so fantastic about Robertson bits over others? Here in Europe, I NEVER encountered one. I knew they existed because I had to learn about them when I was in college for mechanical engineering, but I never saw them in practice. Here Pozidrive is the standard for wood screws and Torx is slowly but surely becoming the standard in industrial applications.
 
------

But guys, keep mentioning it here on the Forum and perhaps one day Festool will come to realise they need to expand the spectre with one more bit.

I know a lot of people over here like Robertson heads but I'm partial to torx...

Phillips was intentionally designed to torque out so the screws can't be broken, which has its value. They make assembly more difficult since they won't stay on the driver. With modern drivers using good clutches they should become extinct or relegated to hand tool applications only.


Tom

Bionicus, I use being bit facetious in my reply. You're right the dive tips do come out often on square drive screws and it can be a hassle.

Alex, the only thing we have Pozidrive for here in the US is Euro hinge hardware, we really don't see it anywhere else. Phillips and slotted were pretty much all we had here, in the last 5-6 years the popularity of square and torx has grown tremendously. Phillips is by far the most used type used and for years that was the only option. When that's all you know it works out fine, I don't have a problem with them at all.   

hey Alex,

I'm from Germany, moved to Canada 8 years ago. Woodworker/Cabinet maker for more then 20 years... Let me tell you, everything is different here when it comes to wood working! The designs, materials building method, tools, hardware, standard dimensions... just everything! The first little while I thought I have to learn everything again!
Anyhow, I'm so glad we can get German tools here! I even drive a VW Eurovan Cargo.... I tried to become friends with North American vehicles and supplies, couldn't believe that anyone is buying that stuff....

I now own my own little company and make my own rules on how stuff gets build 

What do you think about the square drives and bits? I understand that they are quite common in Canada (perhaps the US as well?), but they are rarely used in Sweden (torx and to some extent Pz are moste common, and of course Ph for drywall). However, I don't know what you usually use in Germany? Perhaps you were already familiar with square drivers?

Ah yes, since we got no army of our own, this is how we set out to conquer the Americas, one man at a time. 

What do you think about the square drives and bits? I understand that they are quite common in Canada (perhaps the US as well?), but they are rarely used in Sweden (torx and to some extent Pz are most common, and of course Ph for drywall). However, I don't know what you usually use in Germany? Perhaps you were already familiar with square drivers?


Well, there not that many other options... you go to your supplier and all there is are square and + screws. That's it. I don't hate them but also don't like them.

Over here in New Zealand I've been using square drives since I left school. About 13 years ago now. And thats all we use in the furniture trade apart from small pozi screws for metal runners/hinges.

I don't see what the big deal is, just buy the adapter Les Spencer has recommended and you can use any bit you want without them pulling loose.

As for torx screws, they are alot darer than square screws over here so its more economical to use square screws.

Rockler carries a variety of Torx screws, http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21415

GRK, best screws out there.  All Torx head.  Torx is the only way to go.  Personally, I hate #1 and #2 square drive screws, with a passion.

GRK, they are made overseas, do you people not get out much?

I wonder if Festool would be unhappy with McFeeleys if they had a bunch of Centrotec compatible square drive bits custom ground.
Seems like a marriage made in heaven, considering they probably sell as many square drive screws as anybody in the US, and they're a Festool dealer as well.

Bundle them with the screw filled systainer packages.

Jim

http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/CAB_1_information.htm

All I use for cabinets.  Actually, they are the only screw I use besides drywall screws for drywall.

Find some, try them, never look back.

Check out this Tip Magnet from Fast cap.  It's a like cylinder that you slide on your bit.  You slide it all the way down to the chuck or where ever you want and it turns your bit into a magnet.  It's so strong that it transfers into the bit and holds the screw on.  It's really nice.  I figured since we are talking about bits this would be a good place to post this.

Click here for the link

or 

http://www.fastcap.com/tip-magnet.aspx

-Dave

Stainless steel screw drivers and bits, Nice..

I tend to stay away from stainless steel screws, they seem very soft, at least the ones that come with all the hidden fasteners for decking.

Never used the GRK stainless.  Never had the need since their other screws can be used with any material.

You are in ohio so lets see:

http://www.grkfasteners.ca/grk/servlet/GRKFindRetailer?imstate_prov=Ohio

And all this time (thread started 2-1/2 years ago with no responses until the last week), I thought I was the only one that wanted square drive bits for the Centrotec. 

Since Festool obviously has no interest in providing bits that work for screws commonly available in NA, I went out and found my own solution.  It is the Makita 18v Impact Driver and it accepts all the bits that I need or can ever see wanting.  It also works great.  I also prefer the APEX bits.  Now, I seldom use my Festool drill/driver.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Centronic shaft is patented and that is why nobody else will develop for it.

Peter

Are you guys dense, or just illiterate?

Wera makes the same shaft.

Jesus christ!!

And what the heck is wrong with the bit holder?  I have no issues with it.

Thanks steve

Are the Wera stainless steel bits the way to go?

I see no need to resort to name calling and hurling insults at other members of this forum.
You want to know what is wrong with the bit holder OK - It is 0.02mm across the flats too small.  Now I have no idea whether the ball detent will work in the centrotec or not and at this point, really don't care.  The problem is more than just the centrotec, it expands to the eccentric chuck and right angle attachment as well.  Neill is spot on regarding Festool telling us what we need instead of providing us what we want.  It seems that if Festool marketing is smart enough to recognize that supplying 1/4" collets with their routers makes sense, the same argument could be made for centrotec bits.

Christian, there are lots of manufactures of square drive screws  and bits other than McFeely's.  Are you continuing to attempt to locate such a company that can make the Centronic bits that we want?  For example, have you contacted the Robertson Company (http://www.robertsonscrew.com/) that invented square drive screws (or Robertson screws as they are better known in Canada)?

Frank
I looked on the site you just listed and on http://www.robertsonscrew.com/product_4100.html  the last line states.  "Other types and styles of drivers and bits made to order. "

Why don't we just have some made.  find out how much they would run for a batch and  see if they would drop ship them direct to FOGers

Craig

I don't know, but it sounds like a strange excuse. Having gone through engineering college myself (not finished though) I know that engineers get an incredible large amount of maths and trigonometry. I'm sure their engineers could work out the shape of the bit, even if they never made one before. They also learn a lot about material properties and I'm also pretty sure they could work out a way to make the bits really strong. 


That's weird. Acceptable price? Other manufacturers have no problem putting quality bits on the market for less than half what Festool charges.

Hi,fellow festool fanatics; just use a grinder to knock the edges of of the hex of  a 2" long #1,#2,#3 square drive and grind a detent relief
so that it is captured in the chuck.Don't grind a tip you will lose the surface hardness. All ss exterior finish and inside finish screws are now Robertson drive.There are other "phillips" type screws,reed and prince,phearson these two previous are used in wooden boat building.one size bit will fit #4 to an #16 screw. The taper is the same , the cross grows exponentialy as the size screw increases and the shaft size of the bit gets larger yet they will work .

Though a regular hex drive bit can be ground to fit into the Centrotec chuck, it must be deep enough to engage the internal hex of the output shaft of the drill. The image below shows the anatomy of the Centrotec system. The part in blue is the output shaft of the drill...




Tom

I second the GRK screws.  I found some locally at Rockler, they had a decent selection and when combined with the centrotec Torx pattern bits, they work great!  It's nice being able to quickly switch between the driver and drill bits and those torx patterns simply don't slip.  I always thought one screw is like another (don't go there, please  ) but there is a difference!  I have a supply of square drive I have to use up but after that, it's GRK all the way.  I will need to buy a few thousand of them this fall when I replace my deck.  Their composite screws should work well. 

Glad to see you guys were able to use some of the GRK's and were happy with them.

The only screw I have been using for the last few years, minus drywall screws for drywall.

The GRK's are champs.   Torx heads are the way to go, no slip out.

Got a website link?

I have to admint, I was a "No square drive Festool hater" until I found the Centrotec Bit Holder "Bhs 65mm".  Here is a link;

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/cordless-drills/centrotec-drill-bits/pilot-bit-with-depth-stop/centrotec-bit-holder-bhs-65mm-492648.html

It has a locking collar, and with short hex shank bits, it's not longer combined than a Centrotec Festool bit.  The only downsides are that it is slightly floppy, but way better than more magnetic holders.  And, if you have a recess and need a longer shaft bit, the combo would likely be longer than a Centrotec bit.  I'd prefer a centrotec solution, but this $29.50 locking collar bit holder is darn good.

Another dedicated endorser of the GRKs. They are excellent!

their videos are something else.  They can make a screw 3' long!    Of course the demo would have been better had they used a T15 to drive them.     These guys have them but I have never purchased anything from them.

These guys have better prices and a MUCH better selection: http://www.buygrkfasteners.com/.  Here's a GRK info site: http://www.grkfasteners.com/ .  

Here's another vendor that carries nothing but Torx screws: http://screw-products.com/   I've bought maybe two thousand screws from them.  Not a good as GRK, but pretty decent and the prices are better.

Dan.

Job,

They're Torx.  Check out the drawings and pics on the first page of the catalog: http://screw-products.com/pdfs/spi-retail.pdf.  I've used Screw-Products, GRK, and other brand screws with Torx bits.   GRK are better quality, but the heads are the same.

I'm pretty sure they call them "Star Drive" because they think it's a more marketable name for Americans.   They sell bits in T10 to T40 sizes: http://www.screw-products.com/drive-bits.htm.  Hmmm...   I wonder what the "T" means?  

Dan.

p.s. I've been on the Torx-train for years.   I don't understand the reticence to move in that direction.

Steve,

Thanks for the heads-up.  It's fixed now.  

Unfortunately this is a problem with some forum software packages (like SMF) because they include periods when they parse the url address.  When you place a url at the end of a sentence (like I normally do) and end the sentence with a period, the SMF software includes the period with the link.  It's irritating.  

Other software packages (like vBulletin) don't have this problem.  When you include a URL address and close it with a period, the software ignores the period when creating the link.  

So why doesn't Festool move to the another forum software package?   Because it's huge effort when you have a well-established, customized forum like FOG.   Other forum packages have some nice features, but I don't think it's worth the risk and effort to convert.  I wouldn't do it and don't recommend it to others.

Regards,

Dan.

OK Dan, you've convinced me - sort of.
The link to the PDF you supplied sported some Torx heads, though some of the recesses look a bit "off-standard".
There's only two Torx profiles:  the Torx and the Torx-Plus ( slightly wider lobes, far less common ),  the profile's ratio's are the same throughout the size range.
( And there's TTAP, and ofcourse tamper-resistant versions of the lot )


It's just that the picture you linked to in your earlier post doesn't really resemble a Torx profile, it's "edgy" instead of "lobe-like", and that nullifies part of the advantages.
And apart from that, the name "star drive" has been used for the sharp-edged variant in 6- and 12-point (more common, aka spline-drive)  configuration as well, and they've been around longer than Torx, for as far as I know - hence my confusion.

Anyhow: I'm glad you're aboard the Torx-train - it's a smooth ride, isn't it ?

I think I can conclude with a piece of advice that both parties can relate to:

Screw Robertson ! 


Regards,

Job

I agree with Job (jvsteenb) and Shane. The photo at http://screw-products.com is this:



Although the patent has lapsed, TORX is still a trademarked name in the USA, Canada, UK and other other countries and Acument Global Technologies allow selected manufacturers to manufacture TORX products under license. They naturally take a poor view of manufacturers making look-alike products, as the following except from their TORX Drive System brochure shows (note the curved walls of the "Authentic TORX Drive bit"):



Their Licensing Program Review brochure shows that they hunt down companies of items which are sold TORX, but are not the genuine licensed article or manufactured to the correct standards:

---

Trademark Usage and Counterfeits
Our licensed product trademarks are currently registered in 78 countries and registered with United States Customs.
Our trademarks are known and recognized worldwide.
It is imperative that any product infringement is stopped immediately. By not doing so, end users not only receive an inferior product, but the product could become unrecognizable in the marketplace and take on a generic connotation. We then run the risk of losing our reputation in the marketplace.
We are very active in the pursuit of counterfeit activity.
We attend trade shows, review trade journals, and do key-word searches on the internet. We also rely heavily on our licensees to report violations. We are committed to pursue all trademark infringements and counterfeits brought to our attention and will use any resources, including legal action, to protect these trademarks and patents. We are protecting not only our interests, but the interests of our licensees.
As a licensee, training on how to spot illegal product is an important part of the package. The confidential product binders go into detail explaining the proper usage of the trademarks so there is no mistaking a genuine product versus a fake.

---

To get round these legal problems, manufacturers of TORX-like items often call them "star drives" or "star bits" or something similar. They don't have to pay a license fee or make them to the strict TORX standards, but that naturally means that the shape of the star recess will vary a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. That, in turn, means that getting a good fit between bit and screwhead can be difficult.

A good example of this is the screw-products.com own brochure, where close examination of a selection of their "Star Drive" heads will reveal several different designs:




Forrest

Especially for these applications, there's TTAP. It's an authentic Torx profile ( acually I should state TORX profile ) with a small cilindrical cone added to the tip of the driver/bottom of the recess. It may be driven with a standard Torx bit, but then you don't get the added advantage of the hold-fast wedging action.
However: I get around with standard Torx, they don't tend to fall off, even when screwing top-down a simple magnetig bitholder is enough to hold the screw, and they NEVER stick in the screw when done ( the main reason a standard hex-drive will drive me nuts from time to time instead of just driving nuts ( and bolts and screws, of course ).

Another nice design is the UniScrew, it's sort of a stepped hex-drive that has only one bit-size. The depth of the recess varies with the screwsize, and determines how much of the size-steps are actually used. In a pinch, they can be loosend with a standard hex key. Nice design - having only one bit size without the usual trade-offs is a big pro. I like 'm a lot, but they're far from common.
 

Regards,

Job

I would imagine so..... It's also easy to snap the head of an M8 bolt with a  3' extension bar on your spanner......
Still I would be way more p*ssed if the head rounded over, or the spanner gave up.


Regards,

Job

I have two boxes of Kreg screws (shipping to Sweden cost more than the screws) so I'm going to jump on the wagon here with the square-drive plea. Another thing, I ordered the 2008 centrotec doodad systainer and was really bummed to find that there was no centrotec locking bit holder(bhs65mm) in the box.

Dave, in regards to the BHS 65, I believe it is made to lock on to both wire and ball-detent bits. I borrowed the BHS from Dan Clark so I could comment on its function for my T15 review. While I didn't try to pull the bits outs of the BHS, I didn't have any trouble with ball-detent drill bit pulling out as I withdrew the bit from the hole after drilling. Have you tried using a ball-detent drill bit with your BHS? Maybe yours is bad.

Rockler carries a limited supply of GRX or try here

Joining this thread a lil late... only came up on my recent unread list after the previous posting.

I've had on my to-do list the regrinding of a couple drive bits for the C12, which is a relatively recent acquisition.  When I read this thread, I said, "oh yeah..." and went to do the grinding much like lcc and Jim Becker mentioned earlier.

I have a couple sets of #1 and #2 Robertson drives so I picked one to gently file down the hex corners then work in a ball detent.  Maybe 10 minutes for both including finding a file that walked away.  Fit like a dream and don't wiggle.  I also did the same to the Kreg #2 that came with my pocket screw set... okay, much longer cuz that puppy is made out of diamonds or something, but nothing a Dremel with a grinding bit couldn't hog out.  It, too, fits perfectly.

Picture below shows, left to right, the Festool drive bit adaptor, McFeelys #1, McFeelys #2, and an unmodified McFeelys #2 and the bastards that did it

Highly recommended.

For me, the benefit of the design doesn't lie in the fact that the drill is shorter than others but in the fact that you can change your bit very fast. Most of the time you're not bothered by the length of the drill.

No question that the adapter isn't much different in length than using the keyless (which has only been on my drill/driver once in about three years). But one of the appeals of the tool is close-quarters work, such as inside cabinetry. I can insert a wire-detent bit into the raw tool to drive in that case, but it's not secure. And I use Robertson/square drive fasteners which have a healthy grip on the bit, so when the fastener is driven, the bit stays in the recess instead of the drill/driver.

I'm sorry, but I really remain bugged by the lack of native support for Robertson/Square Drive fasteners from Festool. They are the preference for many industries as well as thousands of folks who "do this" for fun. It makes no sense to me that the same manufacturers that can produce the more complex bit styles can't also product quality Robertson/square drive bits for an acceptable cost. It sure doesn't seem like Rocket Science to me. Maybe McFeely's will finally realize an opportunity here and produce them since Festool hasn't stepped up since I brought this up years ago.

Because they hold the screw better.

We shouldn't have to change screw formats, especially from a proven design that we like and do not consider "inferior" in any way. I'm not saying that Torx is in any way undesirable for folks who like it. Same thing for other formats. But missing a major and respected recess type from the excellent Centrotec design remains disappointing.

Warner if you want to get into the best its probably the Wurth A-Drive.

As for not being used 'across the pond' you are absolutely correct.  I bought a Wera screwdriver and it came with a bunch of Pozi Drives, I didn't even know there were different sizes of Pozi.  I never encounter them except on weird European equipment and maby need one twice a year.

I know everything is done on a cost basis, but a little accommodation to the NA market would be nice to see.  Not having a drive to support your most popular screw really reduces the added benefit.  For me I would love to have one of thier drills for the right angle and 0-space chuck; but they do not offer an impact driver and the centrotech offers no benefit.  If I were to go for it I would be carrying around 2 different chargers and 2 different batteries....not worth it.

The second I see an impact driver and centrotech drives I would use I will buy one.

Try holding the drive in-line with the screw and not off at and awkward angle and you will never strip another one.

I did cam out a square drive screw the other day while doing some shop rearrangement. Then I realized I had a Phillips bit in the TDK-12. Silly me... 

I think Fastenal even stocks them.

six pack sold here for $20
http://www.ultimatetools.ca/products/robertson-bits-for-centrotec-1

I have read that much like Torx screws and their imitators, Robertson screws are slightly different than just plain square drive screws. The taper on the bit has to be a certain angle, and cheap copies don't bother with that for either the driver bit or screw head recess from what I'm told.

Actually I believe the true Canadian Roberston bit is ALMOST straight edged and are actually sometimes 2 pieces  whereas "square drive" bits have more of a taper and are always one piece. The Robertsons do not hold the screws on the bit as well but tend to cam out less than the square drives. Lee Valley mentions this:

Lee Valley Robertson bits

If you can find the Robertson bits that use a carbide tip you will find that this style of bit works so much better than the standard steel tip style.
Stay away from anything made in China.
Andy