Steve Rowe
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Location: Russellville, AR Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 326
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« on: March 11, 2007, 01:50 PM » |
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One thing that I would like to see is square drive bits for the Centrotec chuck. I suspect the demand for these in the US would be large.
Steve
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Jim Becker
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Location: SE PA Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 169
Think twice...write once...
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 01:57 PM » |
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I've asked about this a number of times and the answer to-date has been "too expensive to produce in the quality that Festool owners would accept", more or less. I really do want "native" square/Robertson drive bits as I use those fasteners exclusively when I have the choice. I've "made" some from off-the-shelf bits using my lathe and a file to make do, but it's just not the same as a native solution. Very frustrating.
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“Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.†- Red Buttons
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PeterK
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Location: Wet muggy humid South Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 814
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 02:10 PM » |
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Not sure where to place the blame here - McFeelys for convincing me to convert to all square drive?  Festool for not adopting and adapting the bits?  |
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bionicus
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 90
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2009, 03:37 PM » |
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This is odd to me. I won't even consider Festool drills until they adopt Robertson bits. In Canada they're the standard for wood screws, and for good reason.
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 6215
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 04:52 PM » |
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Problem solved.  I don't get all the fuss and certainly don't get why you'd let this prevent you from owning a great product like Festool's drills.  |
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
Posts: 2815
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 05:13 PM » |
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I've asked about this a number of times and the answer to-date has been "too expensive to produce in the quality that Festool owners would accept", more or less. I really do want "native" square/Robertson drive bits as I use those fasteners exclusively when I have the choice. I've "made" some from off-the-shelf bits using my lathe and a file to make do, but it's just not the same as a native solution. Very frustrating.
Why would it be too expensive, and who exactly told you so? I can't see why a Robertson bit would have a different cost than a Pozidrive, Torx or a Philips. And if you're desperate to have one, what so difficult about making one yourself? As far as I know, the square is one of the most basic geometric forms. All you need is a steady bench grinder. Take an existing Centrotec bit and grind it down to a square. Easy as pie. In Canada they're the standard for wood screws, and for good reason.
What exactly is so fantastic about Robertson bits over others? Here in Europe, I NEVER encountered one. I knew they existed because I had to learn about them when I was in college for mechanical engineering, but I never saw them in practice. Here Pozidrive is the standard for wood screws and Torx is slowly but surely becoming the standard in industrial applications. ------ But guys, keep mentioning it here on the Forum and perhaps one day Festool will come to realise they need to expand the spectre with one more bit. |
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bionicus
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2009
Posts: 90
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 06:30 PM » |
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Those holders aren't really the perfect solution. In my experience, at least with Robertson heads, the bits will often enough pull out, remaining stuck in the screw once you've driven it into the wood. Given that probably 95% of the screws I drive have Robertson heads, this tends to become a bit aggravating. I believe Festool might also make a holder with a quick release chuck to use with standard 2" bits, but again, you're adding to the length and space required to maneuver your drill into position, which is sometimes a commodity. I'm nitpicking, I know, but I think that's allowed if we're talking about a premium product here.
As for why I prefer Robertson over Phillips heads, the only other widely available option around here, basically it comes down to how well they grab onto each other before you've even set your screw against wood. With the recessed square in the screw you can pretty much get away with doing things one-handed and don't have to worry so much about gravity interfering. Assuming your bit hasn't rounded over too much with use, the screw sort of locks on. Pozidrive may be the same way, I don't have nearly as much experience with them.
At any rate, I'd just like to see centrotec Robertson bits made available. Make things tempting for me, that's all.
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Tom Bellemare
Festool Dealer
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Location: Austin, Texas - USA Member Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 3573
Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 07:24 PM » |
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I know a lot of people over here like Robertson heads but I'm partial to torx...
Phillips was intentionally designed to torque out so the screws can't be broken, which has its value. They make assembly more difficult since they won't stay on the driver. With modern drivers using good clutches they should become extinct or relegated to hand tool applications only.
Tom
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 07:24 PM by Tom Bellemare »
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woodshopdemos
Inactive Member
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Location: Hope, RI Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 759
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 07:46 PM » |
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I've asked about this a number of times and the answer to-date has been "too expensive to produce in the quality that Festool owners would accept", more or less. I really do want "native" square/Robertson drive bits as I use those fasteners exclusively when I have the choice. I've "made" some from off-the-shelf bits using my lathe and a file to make do, but it's just not the same as a native solution. Very frustrating.
Jim, Try thte other way around. Get some of the larger Centrotec bits and file down end to make square. |
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In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 6215
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 08:35 PM » |
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Those holders aren't really the perfect solution. In my experience, at least with Robertson heads, the bits will often enough pull out, remaining stuck in the screw once you've driven it into the wood. Given that probably 95% of the screws I drive have Robertson heads, this tends to become a bit aggravating. I believe Festool might also make a holder with a quick release chuck to use with standard 2" bits, but again, you're adding to the length and space required to maneuver your drill into position, which is sometimes a commodity. I'm nitpicking, I know, but I think that's allowed if we're talking about a premium product here.
As for why I prefer Robertson over Phillips heads, the only other widely available option around here, basically it comes down to how well they grab onto each other before you've even set your screw against wood. With the recessed square in the screw you can pretty much get away with doing things one-handed and don't have to worry so much about gravity interfering. Assuming your bit hasn't rounded over too much with use, the screw sort of locks on. Pozidrive may be the same way, I don't have nearly as much experience with them.
At any rate, I'd just like to see centrotec Robertson bits made available. Make things tempting for me, that's all.
Bionicus, I use being bit facetious in my reply. You're right the dive tips do come out often on square drive screws and it can be a hassle. |
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
Posts: 2815
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 08:50 PM » |
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As for why I prefer Robertson over Phillips heads, the only other widely available option around here, basically it comes down to how well they grab onto each other before you've even set your screw against wood. With the recessed square in the screw you can pretty much get away with doing things one-handed and don't have to worry so much about gravity interfering. Assuming your bit hasn't rounded over too much with use, the screw sort of locks on. Pozidrive may be the same way, I don't have nearly as much experience with them.
If Philips is the only alternative then I can understand the popularity of Robertson. I don't like Philips at all, the grip is very bad. Only thing worse than Philips is the plain old groove. Pozidrive has an excellent grip on the other hand. You can get away with a lot of things one handed, even though it does require some balancing sometimes. It is not as good as Torx. But then again, Torx was developed to be used in automated assembly lines, so that the screws would stick on the robot drill bits. I guess Robertson is more or less the same as Torx, when you look at the grip. But you're saying you hardly got Pozidrive in America? Didn't know that. There's still so many differences in the small things, between our cultures. |
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Brice Burrell
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Member Since: Mar 2007
Posts: 6215
Remodeling Contractor
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 09:27 PM » |
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Alex, the only thing we have Pozidrive for here in the US is Euro hinge hardware, we really don't see it anywhere else. Phillips and slotted were pretty much all we had here, in the last 5-6 years the popularity of square and torx has grown tremendously. Phillips is by far the most used type used and for years that was the only option. When that's all you know it works out fine, I don't have a problem with them at all.
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kdzito
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Location: in the mitten Member Since: Jul 2009
Posts: 191
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2009, 11:22 PM » |
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I prefer the Apex brand bits. Hey, most of all I prefer the quick change bits. I use the adapter and also have a non-Festool driver with the quick change chuck. Although I have many Festools, I'm not familiar with their drill/drivers. The Apex bits seem to last a little longer without losing grip. I just used Apex #1 and #2 square bits on square drive #6 & #8 trim screws.
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To build with my two hands is a creative outlet.
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EcoFurniture
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Location: Victoria, BC Member Since: Sep 2008
Posts: 604
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 12:24 AM » |
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As for why I prefer Robertson over Phillips heads, the only other widely available option around here, basically it comes down to how well they grab onto each other before you've even set your screw against wood. With the recessed square in the screw you can pretty much get away with doing things one-handed and don't have to worry so much about gravity interfering. Assuming your bit hasn't rounded over too much with use, the screw sort of locks on. Pozidrive may be the same way, I don't have nearly as much experience with them.
If Philips is the only alternative then I can understand the popularity of Robertson. I don't like Philips at all, the grip is very bad. Only thing worse than Philips is the plain old groove. Pozidrive has an excellent grip on the other hand. You can get away with a lot of things one handed, even though it does require some balancing sometimes. It is not as good as Torx. But then again, Torx was developed to be used in automated assembly lines, so that the screws would stick on the robot drill bits. I guess Robertson is more or less the same as Torx, when you look at the grip. But you're saying you hardly got Pozidrive in America? Didn't know that. There's still so many differences in the small things, between our cultures. hey Alex, I'm from Germany, moved to Canada 8 years ago. Woodworker/Cabinet maker for more then 20 years... Let me tell you, everything is different here when it comes to wood working! The designs, materials building method, tools, hardware, standard dimensions... just everything! The first little while I thought I have to learn everything again! Anyhow, I'm so glad we can get German tools here! I even drive a VW Eurovan Cargo.... I tried to become friends with North American vehicles and supplies, couldn't believe that anyone is buying that stuff.... I now own my own little company and make my own rules on how stuff gets build  |
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alanz
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Sep 2008
Posts: 128
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 07:09 AM » |
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If the bits sometimes pull out of the extension/adapter... why not just glue the bit into the adapter? The only downside (or is it an upside) is that the bit with the extension is longer than a native bit.
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Triton 2.25 router; CMT Industrio table; Jointech fence; SC planer; Dewalt miter; Delta 14" bandsaw; Festool TS55, MFT/3, CT22, ETS150/3, OF1400, PSB300EQ; Dewalt Scrollsaw; Nova DVR XP lathe, JJ-6CS jointer, Ryobi OSS; Grizzly 1023s cabinetsaw
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Daniel_n
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Location: SWEDEN (SE) Member Since: Sep 2007
Posts: 62
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2009, 08:43 AM » |
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As for why I prefer Robertson over Phillips heads, the only other widely available option around here, basically it comes down to how well they grab onto each other before you've even set your screw against wood. With the recessed square in the screw you can pretty much get away with doing things one-handed and don't have to worry so much about gravity interfering. Assuming your bit hasn't rounded over too much with use, the screw sort of locks on. Pozidrive may be the same way, I don't have nearly as much experience with them.
If Philips is the only alternative then I can understand the popularity of Robertson. I don't like Philips at all, the grip is very bad. Only thing worse than Philips is the plain old groove. Pozidrive has an excellent grip on the other hand. You can get away with a lot of things one handed, even though it does require some balancing sometimes. It is not as good as Torx. But then again, Torx was developed to be used in automated assembly lines, so that the screws would stick on the robot drill bits. I guess Robertson is more or less the same as Torx, when you look at the grip. But you're saying you hardly got Pozidrive in America? Didn't know that. There's still so many differences in the small things, between our cultures. hey Alex, I'm from Germany, moved to Canada 8 years ago. Woodworker/Cabinet maker for more then 20 years... Let me tell you, everything is different here when it comes to wood working! The designs, materials building method, tools, hardware, standard dimensions... just everything! The first little while I thought I have to learn everything again! Anyhow, I'm so glad we can get German tools here! I even drive a VW Eurovan Cargo.... I tried to become friends with North American vehicles and supplies, couldn't believe that anyone is buying that stuff.... I now own my own little company and make my own rules on how stuff gets build What do you think about the square drives and bits? I understand that they are quite common in Canada (perhaps the US as well?), but they are rarely used in Sweden (torx and to some extent Pz are moste common, and of course Ph for drywall). However, I don't know what you usually use in Germany? Perhaps you were already familiar with square drivers? |
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ForumMFG
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Location: Marysville, Ohio Member Since: Jun 2009
Posts: 808
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2009, 08:51 AM » |
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In my shop all we use are square drive bits. Thats all I use at home as well. In fact, you would find the sqaure drive screw & bits are the most commonly used screw in central ohio. I have not ventured out to other shops outside of central ohio but I'm sure it's pretty common in ohio. The screws stay in the bit, they torque down great. I buy #8 square drive flat head w/ nibs, Type 17 thread w/ auger point
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
Posts: 2815
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2009, 06:07 PM » |
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I now own my own little company and make my own rules on how stuff gets build Ah yes, since we got no army of our own, this is how we set out to conquer the Americas, one man at a time.  |
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EcoFurniture
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Location: Victoria, BC Member Since: Sep 2008
Posts: 604
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2009, 09:35 PM » |
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EcoFurniture
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Location: Victoria, BC Member Since: Sep 2008
Posts: 604
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2009, 09:38 PM » |
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What do you think about the square drives and bits? I understand that they are quite common in Canada (perhaps the US as well?), but they are rarely used in Sweden (torx and to some extent Pz are most common, and of course Ph for drywall). However, I don't know what you usually use in Germany? Perhaps you were already familiar with square drivers?
Well, there not that many other options... you go to your supplier and all there is are square and + screws. That's it. I don't hate them but also don't like them.
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Les Spencer
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Location: Plainfield, Indiana USA Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 487
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2009, 10:04 PM » |
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Those holders aren't really the perfect solution. In my experience, at least with Robertson heads, the bits will often enough pull out, remaining stuck in the screw once you've driven it into the wood. Use this holder and the driver bits won't pull loose. Personally, I use torx drive screws from Screw Products. heck of a screw. Rarely is pre-drilling required. Especially if you lube with bees wax. |
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Les (near Indy) XL
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KorDes
Festool Dealer
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Location: New Zealand Member Since: Jun 2008
Posts: 76
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 07:51 PM » |
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Over here in New Zealand I've been using square drives since I left school. About 13 years ago now. And thats all we use in the furniture trade apart from small pozi screws for metal runners/hinges.
I don't see what the big deal is, just buy the adapter Les Spencer has recommended and you can use any bit you want without them pulling loose.
As for torx screws, they are alot darer than square screws over here so its more economical to use square screws.
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HowardH
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Location: Plano, Tx Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 704
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2009, 09:08 PM » |
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I recently got a T15 and it is indeed aggravating not to have a centrotec square drive bit. I hate phillips  screws. They always strip out when you least need them to. It's difficult to find PZ screws in the US so that leaves Torx if you want to go the Centrotec route. They also are hard to find. The big box stores still only carry phillips or slotted screws for the most part. I ordered quite a few different sizes from McFeeley's a couple of years back in the square drive and they worked fine. If I can get my hands on a good selection of Torx, I'll order em get a Centrotec bit to match. |
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Howard H
The Plano Texas Festool Fanatic!
Shelby Metcalf, basketball coach at Texas A&M, recounting what he told a player who received four F's and one D: "Son, looks to me like you're spending too much time on one subject."
mft1080, T15, RO150FEQ, TS55, RTS400, ETS 150/3, OF1400, CT22, CT33, MFS 400 & 700, Boom Arm, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900 rails CSX drill Qwas dogs
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Steve-CO
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Location: Littleton, CO Member Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 786
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 10:47 PM » |
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If I can get my hands on a good selection of Torx, I'll order em get a Centrotec bit to match.
Rockler carries a variety of Torx screws, http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21415 |
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Martin Johnson
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Location: Austin, TX USA Member Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 97
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 12:10 PM » |
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If you already have your favorite square drive bits...this might work.
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WarnerConstCo.
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Location: Auburn, In usa Member Since: Apr 2008
Posts: 3109
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« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2009, 08:21 PM » |
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GRK, best screws out there. All Torx head. Torx is the only way to go. Personally, I hate #1 and #2 square drive screws, with a passion.
GRK, they are made overseas, do you people not get out much?
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Dan Rush
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Location: Chicago, Il. USA Member Since: Feb 2008
Posts: 538
Trim carpenter
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« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 08:34 PM » |
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Hey Warner,
I made the jump to square drive a few years ago. I now hate Phillips with a passion. Is the jump from square to Torx the same leap? Keep in mind I install cabinets, so I don't need heavy torque, but I'm thinking of moving up, so any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dan
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Jimhart
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 218
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« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2009, 09:21 PM » |
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I wonder if Festool would be unhappy with McFeeleys if they had a bunch of Centrotec compatible square drive bits custom ground.
Seems like a marriage made in heaven, considering they probably sell as many square drive screws as anybody in the US, and they're a Festool dealer as well.
Bundle them with the screw filled systainer packages.
Jim
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Les Spencer
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Location: Plainfield, Indiana USA Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 487
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2009, 09:46 PM » |
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Jim,
Good thought and was discussed by Jim McNeeley when he was a member of this forum. At that time he couldn't get Festools blessing. He has since sold the business and nothing more has been mentioned. Not sure if it ever will be. It would be nice if someone from Festool would chime in.
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Les (near Indy) XL
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WarnerConstCo.
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Location: Auburn, In usa Member Since: Apr 2008
Posts: 3109
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2009, 12:07 AM » |
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Hey Warner,
I made the jump to square drive a few years ago. I now hate Phillips with a passion. Is the jump from square to Torx the same leap? Keep in mind I install cabinets, so I don't need heavy torque, but I'm thinking of moving up, so any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Dan
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/CAB_1_information.htmAll I use for cabinets. Actually, they are the only screw I use besides drywall screws for drywall. Find some, try them, never look back. |
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