Author Topic: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?  (Read 9875 times)

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Offline usatu

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Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« on: October 20, 2016, 02:14 PM »
I recently bought a fuji q4 HVLP spray gun and plan to spray all the kitchen cabinets, trims and doors. After reading lots of reviews and posts, I plan to use pre-catalyzed lacquer for the smooth finishing. But it looks like they don't sell these products to the public without business. I tried ML campbell and Chemcraft. Even the guy from SW told me that he wouldn't sell the kem aqua to me. He has the concern of over spraying as I mentioned that I will do it in the garage with a fan. I am pretty confused that I saw many videos on youtube as ppl spray lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom.  They don't seem to have that kind of problems.

Can you please shed the lights for me what I need to do to get the product and spray safely? Is my only option to spray BM advance at this point?

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 02:33 PM »
In your situation please use only waterborne products. You are not set up to shoot solvent based products.

I shoot KA+ in the shop and finished homes. It's all in the prep.

I see no reason SW will not sell you KA+.

Where are you located?

Tom

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 04:09 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 05:15 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 05:21 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Tom,

My local BM store just started carrying the Lenmar.  When I asked about it I was told that they couldn't sell to me although they know that I am a business.  I haven't followed up to see if that is really true or just what is told to the general public due to VOC and safety issues.

Peter

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 05:33 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Tom,

My local BM store just started carrying the Lenmar.  When I asked about it I was told that they couldn't sell to me although they know that I am a business.  I haven't followed up to see if that is really true or just what is told to the general public due to VOC and safety issues.

Peter

Check with them specifically about Dura-Laq (waterbourne). The TDS and SDS show it to be as safe as any paint they sell. I walked into a local dealer asked them about Dura-Laq, he offered me a gallon at no cost to try. I've only been in the store a few times over the last 10 years, he had no clue who I am or what my set up is.

I'm so glad I don't live in some parts of this country. Sucks when you can't get what you need.

Tom

Offline JCLP

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 05:46 PM »
Tom, Have you tried spraying Dura-Laq yet. How does it compare to KA+?

JC


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 05:51 PM »
Tom, Have you tried spraying Dura-Laq yet. How does it compare to KA+?

JC

I have not sprayed it. I did not take him up on the free gallon. I have a tendency to do stupid things like this, should have just taken the gallon.

Tom

Offline mo siopa

  • Posts: 80
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 07:45 PM »
It could be OTC regulations.  KA contains VOCs even thought it is water-reducible.
Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in where a man, dressed up as a bat, gets all of my press?

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 08:39 PM »
If you want to use the ka+ waterbourne from Sherwin Williams and can't get anyone to sell it to you I can get you in touch with our regional rep. I live in south jersey and was able to get it through the Atlantic City store. 15 minutes after I ordered it the regional rep reached out to me to see if he could do anything more for me (I'm assuming they thought I was a much larger cabinet shop). Needless to say I was impressed with the customer service and I'm sure that he could get you in touch with the right people.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 09:48 PM »

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.


That's a long standing myth started by marketing people. It's the complete opposite. HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

An airless system will generate overspray too, but it remains localized to the floor directly under those areas you miss with the spray. HVLP will fog the whole shop. Airless won't.

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 09:53 PM »
I am new to using the spray gun, so please bear with me. Should I be concerned about safety if I use HVLP to spray water based lacquer like KA+ indoor? Can I bring the cabinet door outside to spray? Will that affect the finish?

Appreciate all your kind inputs and helps.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5773
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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 10:02 PM »

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.


That's a long standing myth started by marketing people. It's the complete opposite. HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

An airless system will generate overspray too, but it remains localized to the floor directly under those areas you miss with the spray. HVLP will fog the whole shop. Airless won't.

Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.



Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2016, 10:06 PM »
I am new to using the spray gun, so please bear with me. Should I be concerned about safety if I use HVLP to spray water based lacquer like KA+ indoor? Can I bring the cabinet door outside to spray? Will that affect the finish?

Appreciate all your kind inputs and helps.

Respirator is mandatory no matter what you're spraying.

Outside is not a good choice. Wind, dust, dirt, sun changes on the product, way to many variables you cant control.

Tom

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2016, 10:35 PM »
I got 3M Half Facepiece Reusable Respirator 7501. I assume it is fine? Other than that, can I use a box fan on the window to draw air outside? What else I need to set the booth up in garage? Thanks so much!

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 10:39 PM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 10:43 PM »
Sorry Tom, but I can see the product bounce off the surface in your own video. I can also tell that the room has fogged between the start and midway through.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 11:27 PM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 11:31 PM »
Sorry Tom, but I can see the product bounce off the surface in your own video. I can also tell that the room has fogged between the start and midway through.

You must be the only one seeing it.

Tom

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2016, 06:24 AM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom
Ah!  That must be a typo, as you meant "aid" instead of "add" and I misunderstood.  I found the SW dry fall paint now.

The Fuji T-70 has a 1"-15" pattern adjustment knob, pattern changes with air caps?  Sorry, I'm not following that.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2016, 07:41 AM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom
Ah!  That must be a typo, as you meant "aid" instead of "add" and I misunderstood.  I found the SW dry fall paint now.

The Fuji T-70 has a 1"-15" pattern adjustment knob, pattern changes with air caps?  Sorry, I'm not following that.

Yes, my typo.

Spray a product with the matched cap, then spray with a larger and smaller cap. You'll find the product breaks up differently and the pattern will change without changing the setting.

Tom

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2016, 08:05 AM »
I have to agree with Rick the fog is pretty evident from about 1:20 minutes on and gets heavier with more spraying. I wouldn't have expected anything less in the situation your spraying especially from HVLP turbine which has a transfer efficiency of about 75% on a good day. Nice system for spraying the doors, makes it fast and efficient.

John

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2016, 08:10 AM »
Yes, my typo.

Spray a product with the matched cap, then spray with a larger and smaller cap. You'll find the product breaks up differently and the pattern will change without changing the setting.

Tom
I can see atomization changing as the air cap holes get smaller as nozzle/needle size drops and I think the Gxpc adds two more holes at 1.0mm.  I do remember watching a video on a HVLP system where the included spray gun had switchable air caps for different materials.

It does sound like an interesting thing to try though.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:20 AM by wptski »
Bill
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Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2016, 08:19 AM »
I have to agree with Rick the fog is pretty evident from about 1:20 minutes on and gets heavier with more spraying. I wouldn't have expected anything less in the situation your spraying especially from HVLP turbine which has a transfer efficiency of about 75% on a good day. Nice system for spraying the doors, makes it fast and efficient.

John
I think what you are seeing is because the lighting is directly above a one door but farther behind on others and the camera angle is different.  Video quality has lots to do this too.
Bill
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Offline JCLP

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2016, 10:36 AM »
Just ordered a gallon of BM Dura-Laq Waterborne acrylic to try out. Should get it late today or Monday. Can't wait to try it.

JC

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Even the guy from SW told me that he wouldn't sell the kem aqua to me.
Just go to a different SW dealer and ask for it. Some guys are more conservative than others.

I am pretty confused that I saw many videos on youtube as ppl spray lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom.  They don't seem to have that kind of problems.

Just because someone has a video on You Tube spraying lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom without ventilation doesn't make it correct.

Can you please shed the lights for me what I need to do to get the product and spray safely? Is my only option to spray BM advance at this point?

You need to have ventilation for optimum results when spraying KemAqua. You can spray it without for a small door or two but in a confined space a fine powder will settle on everything. Because these paints dry quickly, and the air from the turbine is warmer, the paint flashes off very quickly. I have sprayed without adequet ventilation and it makes a huge mess.
Tim

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2016, 03:28 PM »
HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

I agree that an HVLP system generates a lot of very fine airborne particles of paint and it gets everywhere unless the room is sealed and properly ventilated.
The nanny in the most recent home I sprayed KemAqua in will spit many colorful obscenities in English and Italian as testament to the mess I made.

I am not sure that in most cases (unless it is coming out of a pressure pot etc.) the air is bouncing off the surface so much as it is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun.
Tim

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2016, 03:40 PM »
HVLP overspray?

"is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun."

That's what seems to be going on to me. Dry particles are manged pretty well by a good exhaust system but that's hard to arrange in someones kitchen. If you have the skill, and equipment airless might be better.

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2016, 04:03 PM »
Even airless produces overspray and very fine particles just because air isn't used does mean there is no overspray or mist in the air,  that why they call atomization. The only way to get better than about 85% transfer is with a brush.

John

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 04:35 PM »
HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

I agree that an HVLP system generates a lot of very fine airborne particles of paint and it gets everywhere unless the room is sealed and properly ventilated.
The nanny in the most recent home I sprayed KemAqua in will spit many colorful obscenities in English and Italian as testament to the mess I made.

I am not sure that in most cases (unless it is coming out of a pressure pot etc.) the air is bouncing off the surface so much as it is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun.
Tim

Yeah, you're correct. It's just a matter of semantics. The particles themselves aren't bouncing off the surface, because if they had reached the surface, they would have adhered. It is the carrier (air) that is bouncing off the surface, which then carries the product with it.

It doesn't matter how much or how little carrier air you are sending out with the product, because none of the carrier applies to the surface. All of the carrier must reflect off the surface, and with it, so does the product.

I'm surprised by the backlash. This really isn't a controversial topic. It is well understood in the finishing industry. It's a myth that clings on mainly in the hobbyist market.