Author Topic: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?  (Read 8748 times)

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Offline usatu

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Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« on: October 20, 2016, 02:14 PM »
I recently bought a fuji q4 HVLP spray gun and plan to spray all the kitchen cabinets, trims and doors. After reading lots of reviews and posts, I plan to use pre-catalyzed lacquer for the smooth finishing. But it looks like they don't sell these products to the public without business. I tried ML campbell and Chemcraft. Even the guy from SW told me that he wouldn't sell the kem aqua to me. He has the concern of over spraying as I mentioned that I will do it in the garage with a fan. I am pretty confused that I saw many videos on youtube as ppl spray lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom.  They don't seem to have that kind of problems.

Can you please shed the lights for me what I need to do to get the product and spray safely? Is my only option to spray BM advance at this point?

Thanks so much for your suggestions!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 02:33 PM »
In your situation please use only waterborne products. You are not set up to shoot solvent based products.

I shoot KA+ in the shop and finished homes. It's all in the prep.

I see no reason SW will not sell you KA+.

Where are you located?

Tom

Offline usatu

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 04:09 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 05:15 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 05:21 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Tom,

My local BM store just started carrying the Lenmar.  When I asked about it I was told that they couldn't sell to me although they know that I am a business.  I haven't followed up to see if that is really true or just what is told to the general public due to VOC and safety issues.

Peter

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 05:33 PM »
Thanks Tom. I am in Philly suburb. Looks like home stores around me don't carry this product so they gave me a number for chem center (can't remember exactly). It sounds really odd to me that the concern is I over spray the product to everywhere including ceiling, counter top and etc. instead of explosion. What can I do if he refuses to sell the product [sad]? Guess my last resort is BM advance. .

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.

Check with BM for Lenmar Dura Laq. (BM owns Lenmar)

http://www.lenmar-coatings.com/category-listing/pro/waterbornefinishsystems

Tom

Tom,

My local BM store just started carrying the Lenmar.  When I asked about it I was told that they couldn't sell to me although they know that I am a business.  I haven't followed up to see if that is really true or just what is told to the general public due to VOC and safety issues.

Peter

Check with them specifically about Dura-Laq (waterbourne). The TDS and SDS show it to be as safe as any paint they sell. I walked into a local dealer asked them about Dura-Laq, he offered me a gallon at no cost to try. I've only been in the store a few times over the last 10 years, he had no clue who I am or what my set up is.

I'm so glad I don't live in some parts of this country. Sucks when you can't get what you need.

Tom

Offline JCLP

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 05:46 PM »
Tom, Have you tried spraying Dura-Laq yet. How does it compare to KA+?

JC


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 05:51 PM »
Tom, Have you tried spraying Dura-Laq yet. How does it compare to KA+?

JC

I have not sprayed it. I did not take him up on the free gallon. I have a tendency to do stupid things like this, should have just taken the gallon.

Tom

Offline mo siopa

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 07:45 PM »
It could be OTC regulations.  KA contains VOCs even thought it is water-reducible.
Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in where a man, dressed up as a bat, gets all of my press?

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 08:39 PM »
If you want to use the ka+ waterbourne from Sherwin Williams and can't get anyone to sell it to you I can get you in touch with our regional rep. I live in south jersey and was able to get it through the Atlantic City store. 15 minutes after I ordered it the regional rep reached out to me to see if he could do anything more for me (I'm assuming they thought I was a much larger cabinet shop). Needless to say I was impressed with the customer service and I'm sure that he could get you in touch with the right people.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 09:48 PM »

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.


That's a long standing myth started by marketing people. It's the complete opposite. HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

An airless system will generate overspray too, but it remains localized to the floor directly under those areas you miss with the spray. HVLP will fog the whole shop. Airless won't.

Offline usatu

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 09:53 PM »
I am new to using the spray gun, so please bear with me. Should I be concerned about safety if I use HVLP to spray water based lacquer like KA+ indoor? Can I bring the cabinet door outside to spray? Will that affect the finish?

Appreciate all your kind inputs and helps.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 10:02 PM »

With an HVLP there is minimal overspray, easily contained.

Are you certain there concern is overspray? Maybe they did not explain their concern well.


That's a long standing myth started by marketing people. It's the complete opposite. HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

An airless system will generate overspray too, but it remains localized to the floor directly under those areas you miss with the spray. HVLP will fog the whole shop. Airless won't.

Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.



Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2016, 10:06 PM »
I am new to using the spray gun, so please bear with me. Should I be concerned about safety if I use HVLP to spray water based lacquer like KA+ indoor? Can I bring the cabinet door outside to spray? Will that affect the finish?

Appreciate all your kind inputs and helps.

Respirator is mandatory no matter what you're spraying.

Outside is not a good choice. Wind, dust, dirt, sun changes on the product, way to many variables you cant control.

Tom

Offline usatu

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2016, 10:35 PM »
I got 3M Half Facepiece Reusable Respirator 7501. I assume it is fine? Other than that, can I use a box fan on the window to draw air outside? What else I need to set the booth up in garage? Thanks so much!

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 10:39 PM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?
Bill
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Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 10:43 PM »
Sorry Tom, but I can see the product bounce off the surface in your own video. I can also tell that the room has fogged between the start and midway through.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 11:27 PM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 11:31 PM »
Sorry Tom, but I can see the product bounce off the surface in your own video. I can also tell that the room has fogged between the start and midway through.

You must be the only one seeing it.

Tom

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2016, 06:24 AM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom
Ah!  That must be a typo, as you meant "aid" instead of "add" and I misunderstood.  I found the SW dry fall paint now.

The Fuji T-70 has a 1"-15" pattern adjustment knob, pattern changes with air caps?  Sorry, I'm not following that.
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2016, 07:41 AM »
Bull, properly set the overspray is darn near nonexistent on an HVLP. If you're getting overspray that is uncontrollable something is set incorrectly for the product.

Airless due to rebound will disperses the overspray over larger areas. Sherwin Williams makes a dry fall paint to add in cleaning up the mess an airless will make.

This is a Fuji Q4, with pressure pot set at 18 psi, KA+ through a T-70 gun with an 0.8 nozzle/needle set-1.0 air cap. No "mist" in the air, there is no direct ventilation draw at the spray point.

Tom
This is an SW additive, does it have a name?

You are mismatching aircaps with nozzle/needle set?  What are you gaining with this?

I don't understand your question Bill. What additive, I did not mention one in my post.

Wider fan.

Tom
Ah!  That must be a typo, as you meant "aid" instead of "add" and I misunderstood.  I found the SW dry fall paint now.

The Fuji T-70 has a 1"-15" pattern adjustment knob, pattern changes with air caps?  Sorry, I'm not following that.

Yes, my typo.

Spray a product with the matched cap, then spray with a larger and smaller cap. You'll find the product breaks up differently and the pattern will change without changing the setting.

Tom

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2016, 08:05 AM »
I have to agree with Rick the fog is pretty evident from about 1:20 minutes on and gets heavier with more spraying. I wouldn't have expected anything less in the situation your spraying especially from HVLP turbine which has a transfer efficiency of about 75% on a good day. Nice system for spraying the doors, makes it fast and efficient.

John

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2016, 08:10 AM »
Yes, my typo.

Spray a product with the matched cap, then spray with a larger and smaller cap. You'll find the product breaks up differently and the pattern will change without changing the setting.

Tom
I can see atomization changing as the air cap holes get smaller as nozzle/needle size drops and I think the Gxpc adds two more holes at 1.0mm.  I do remember watching a video on a HVLP system where the included spray gun had switchable air caps for different materials.

It does sound like an interesting thing to try though.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:20 AM by wptski »
Bill
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Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2016, 08:19 AM »
I have to agree with Rick the fog is pretty evident from about 1:20 minutes on and gets heavier with more spraying. I wouldn't have expected anything less in the situation your spraying especially from HVLP turbine which has a transfer efficiency of about 75% on a good day. Nice system for spraying the doors, makes it fast and efficient.

John
I think what you are seeing is because the lighting is directly above a one door but farther behind on others and the camera angle is different.  Video quality has lots to do this too.
Bill
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Offline JCLP

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2016, 10:36 AM »
Just ordered a gallon of BM Dura-Laq Waterborne acrylic to try out. Should get it late today or Monday. Can't wait to try it.

JC

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2016, 03:20 PM »
Even the guy from SW told me that he wouldn't sell the kem aqua to me.
Just go to a different SW dealer and ask for it. Some guys are more conservative than others.

I am pretty confused that I saw many videos on youtube as ppl spray lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom.  They don't seem to have that kind of problems.

Just because someone has a video on You Tube spraying lacquer in the kitchen and bathroom without ventilation doesn't make it correct.

Can you please shed the lights for me what I need to do to get the product and spray safely? Is my only option to spray BM advance at this point?

You need to have ventilation for optimum results when spraying KemAqua. You can spray it without for a small door or two but in a confined space a fine powder will settle on everything. Because these paints dry quickly, and the air from the turbine is warmer, the paint flashes off very quickly. I have sprayed without adequet ventilation and it makes a huge mess.
Tim

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2016, 03:28 PM »
HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

I agree that an HVLP system generates a lot of very fine airborne particles of paint and it gets everywhere unless the room is sealed and properly ventilated.
The nanny in the most recent home I sprayed KemAqua in will spit many colorful obscenities in English and Italian as testament to the mess I made.

I am not sure that in most cases (unless it is coming out of a pressure pot etc.) the air is bouncing off the surface so much as it is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun.
Tim

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2016, 03:40 PM »
HVLP overspray?

"is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun."

That's what seems to be going on to me. Dry particles are manged pretty well by a good exhaust system but that's hard to arrange in someones kitchen. If you have the skill, and equipment airless might be better.

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2016, 04:03 PM »
Even airless produces overspray and very fine particles just because air isn't used does mean there is no overspray or mist in the air,  that why they call atomization. The only way to get better than about 85% transfer is with a brush.

John

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 04:35 PM »
HVLP generates huge amounts of very fine overspray by its very nature. You are propelling the product toward the workpiece with large volumes of air, that must bounce off the surface, and with it carries a lot of the finer product with it.

I agree that an HVLP system generates a lot of very fine airborne particles of paint and it gets everywhere unless the room is sealed and properly ventilated.
The nanny in the most recent home I sprayed KemAqua in will spit many colorful obscenities in English and Italian as testament to the mess I made.

I am not sure that in most cases (unless it is coming out of a pressure pot etc.) the air is bouncing off the surface so much as it is particles that never make it to the surface because they become air borne as a result of being dry shortly after it leaves the gun.
Tim

Yeah, you're correct. It's just a matter of semantics. The particles themselves aren't bouncing off the surface, because if they had reached the surface, they would have adhered. It is the carrier (air) that is bouncing off the surface, which then carries the product with it.

It doesn't matter how much or how little carrier air you are sending out with the product, because none of the carrier applies to the surface. All of the carrier must reflect off the surface, and with it, so does the product.

I'm surprised by the backlash. This really isn't a controversial topic. It is well understood in the finishing industry. It's a myth that clings on mainly in the hobbyist market.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2016, 06:15 PM »
http://www.spraygunworld.com/Information2/Overspray/OversprayStart.html

I do not know how old this reference is, but it has a chart showing much better performance with HVLP than airless if I am reading the chart properly.

Even small paint droplets are much denser than air so that a portion of them can pass through the bounce back air and still hit the surface where they will usually stick.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2016, 06:28 PM »
Jimbo, your link is for a website that sells HVLP equipment. Read the rest of the site, and you'll see that they have an extreme bias against airless.

But if you really want to find out how bad the overspray is, simply spray something with pigment. I did that once, with a very expensive turbine system. The whole room turned brown with a nice even coating, not just where I was working.

Offline usatu

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2016, 11:09 PM »
For professional guys, is the best practice to take the cabinet cases to the spray booth in shop and spray? It sounds like a lot of work like taking the counter top off for repainting the cabinets. Any suggestions for me to paint the cabinet case, brush or HVLP spray? I have many windows in the sun room next to kitchen. Don't know whether that helps or not.

Thanks !

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2016, 09:41 AM »
For professional guys, is the best practice to take the cabinet cases to the spray booth in shop and spray?

Yes. I prefer to spray parts and then assemble. It's easier and less moving of bulky pieces. Sometimes it's not possible because of the design and construction but in most cases the more troublesome areas like spraying inside a box etc. are taken care of.

It sounds like a lot of work like taking the counter top off for repainting the cabinets. Any suggestions for me to paint the cabinet case, brush or HVLP spray?

Hmmm, since it sounds like you have not done this before you should brush it. Use a good quality paint like BM Advance or similar and buy a good brush/roller and do some practicing to see what works best. Some people like to use a stiffer brush with Advance and some like a medium etc.

Based on your questions, I suspect you will be very frustrated trying to spray your kitchen. Everything that is not going to be painted needs to be masked. All windows and trim needs to be covered etc. etc. Paint and dust gets everywhere otherwise.
Tim

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2016, 10:00 AM »
It could be OTC regulations.  KA contains VOCs even thought it is water-reducible.

What is the OTC?
Most waterborne products contain small amounts (1% give or take) of VOC's. All the documentation I have read on the industrial waterbourne products I use have small amounts of VOCs but pass government regulations for use as long as you are not ingesting it or inhaling the particles.
Tim

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2016, 10:26 AM »
For professional guys, is the best practice to take the cabinet cases to the spray booth in shop and spray? It sounds like a lot of work like taking the counter top off for repainting the cabinets. Any suggestions for me to paint the cabinet case, brush or HVLP spray? I have many windows in the sun room next to kitchen. Don't know whether that helps or not.

Thanks !

Judge for yourself, look at protected areas. How much overspray has fallen on it?

A kitchen sprayed in place the tops were being replaced, so they were removed. The floor was covered minimally, areas that were to be tiled were not covered, interiors were protected, light on dark protection.

252547-0252549-1252551-2252553-3

Tops fabricated and installed..

252563-4 [ Specified attachment is not available ]

Window sashes sprayed, again light color, dark protection.

252555-6252557-7

Casework, medium color, light floor protection.

252559-8

Black edge shot.

252561-9

All of the above was shot with an HVLP. Again, properly set overspray is minimal and easily contained.

There are system that produce less overspray (powder coating and ESD, robotic sprayers help also). I doubt we'll see them for our applications in our life time.

Tom

(Edit; I mixed up a few pictures, you'll figure it out)

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2016, 10:34 AM »
I'll mention again, whatever you decided shoot only waterborne products. You're not set up for solvents.

Tom

Offline Cheese

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2016, 11:14 AM »
I'll mention again, whatever you decided shoot only waterborne products. You're not set up for solvents.

I assume you're concerned with the explosion risk?

Offline wptski

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2016, 11:30 AM »
Tom, do you use a Zipwall system for containment?
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2016, 12:13 PM »
I'll mention again, whatever you decided shoot only waterborne products. You're not set up for solvents.

I assume you're concerned with the explosion risk?

Yes.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2016, 12:14 PM »
Tom, do you use a Zipwall system for containment?

Yes.

Tom

Offline Scott Burt

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2016, 12:15 PM »
Tom, do you use a Zipwall system for containment?

Yes.

Tom

Liking your recent economy of words.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2016, 12:32 PM »
I'll mention again, whatever you decided shoot only waterborne products. You're not set up for solvents.

I assume you're concerned with the explosion risk?

Yes.

Tom

The Lower Explosive Limit (LEL) of lacquer is higher than the IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health).

In other words, if you are going to have an explosion, you won't care about it, because you will already be dead. If you don't believe that, go look up the numbers on the MSDS sheets.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2016, 12:43 PM »
I'll mention again, whatever you decided shoot only waterborne products. You're not set up for solvents.

I assume you're concerned with the explosion risk?

Yes.

Tom

The Lower Explosive Limit (LEL) of lacquer is higher than the IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health).

In other words, if you are going to have an explosion, you won't care about it, because you will already be dead. If you don't believe that, go look up the numbers on the MSDS sheets.

My concern is, most people starting out spraying run cheep fans to evacuate the area. Running the air/fuel mixture through a motor can be an issue. Most do not own explosion proof fans.

Thus my statement--you are not set up to shoot solvents. Maybe "equipped" would have been a better word to use.

Tom

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2016, 01:23 PM »
Tom, if you're going to advise people on this, you really need to increase your information sources. The OSHA PEL for lacquer is about 150ppm. The LD50 (Lethal Dose) is about 2000 ppm. The LEL is about 20,000 to 120,000 ppm. You are wearing a non-fit-tested APR, which will have a protection factor well below 5 (10 if fit tested).

The bottom line is that if you have personnel in the room, they will be long dead before you reach even the bottom LEL concentration. The concentration passing through your fan will be no higher than the ambient level in the room, and most likely lower due to speed and mixing. Additionally, most window fans are induction. They don't make sparks.

The situation could be different if you are using a small vent-hood type spray booth, where the operator is outside the spray cabinet.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2016, 01:31 PM »
Tom, if you're going to advise people on this, you really need to increase your information sources. The OSHA PEL for lacquer is about 150ppm. The LD50 (Lethal Dose) is about 2000 ppm. The LEL is about 20,000 to 120,000 ppm. You are wearing a non-fit-tested APR, which will have a protection factor well below 5 (10 if fit tested).

The bottom line is that if you have personnel in the room, they will be long dead before you reach even the bottom LEL concentration. The concentration passing through your fan will be no higher than the ambient level in the room, and most likely lower due to speed and mixing. Additionally, most window fans are induction. They don't make sparks.

The situation could be different if you are using a small vent-hood type spray booth, where the operator is outside the spray cabinet.

I don't need to---you're there to fill in the gaps (I mean this in the most proper and respectful way, please take it this way).

Thank you for the info by the way.

Tom

Offline brewster201

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2016, 01:49 PM »
Hello Rick I believe Tom is talking about water-based precat Lacquer.

Just adding my 2 cents, I recently switched over from a Fuji 4 stage/pressure pot setup to Kremlin 15-25 AAA pump.
 The Kremlin has a much softer spray with very little bounce back. Remember with the Fuji setup you are pushing product through a nozzle and air to at atomize, the Kremlin is compressing the paint through a nozzle (500-800 psi) and using a small amount for the tails (10-20 psi)
There is 0 noise and just lays down Kem Aqua plus like glass and really just prefer the Kremlin. There is no dry mist issues (tiger stripping)
The time you purchase a Fuji 5 stage, T-70 gun hoses, pressure pot you could buy a decent AAA pump for not much more.
 Just a thought to ponder. :-)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 01:55 PM by brewster201 »
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Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2016, 02:05 PM »
Just adding my 2 cents, I recently switched over from a Fuji 4 stage/pressure pot setup to Kremlin 15-25 AAA pump.
Interesting, why the 15-25 AAA and not the new 10:1?

The time you purchase a Fuji 5 stage, T-70 gun hoses, pressure pot you could buy a decent AAA pump for not much more.
 Just a thought to ponder. :-)

Unfortunately this is correct, with the caveat that "much more" is a relative term when you are talking about $1500-2000.
However, the world of AAA up until fairly recently is complex in terms of pumps and set ups etc. and it is easy to buy the wrong unit.
Graco amoung other vendors produces some very good "generic" information on AAA and Airless systems that help make purchasing the right systems easier.
Tim

Offline brewster201

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2016, 02:18 PM »
Hello Tim it has been a quick learning curve but really happy with the results
The 15-25 was recommended for WB. I was fortunate to find a good used one in Mississuga and including the hoses, filter, Xcite gun and fluid heater.
I'm very interested in getting the fluid heater setup, a large learning curve lol
Nice setup with y at the gun and spill back to the suction to circulate for temp control, not to sure on the temp I need, maybe 80-90egs

Bruce
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Offline brewster201

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2016, 02:32 PM »
This is my setup, I have not completed the spill back
I have dual control for pump and air to gun control. One outside and inside the booth
Having it outside makes it easier for cleanup
Hand Woodworking

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2016, 02:53 PM »
Why undertake a complex project with no prior experience with the material, the process, the particular equipment in the most difficult setting for this process?

How about starting with lawnfurniture  or shop cabinets sprayed in your garage to see what you are getting into first? Something with much greater tolerance for your lack of experience  [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline brewster201

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2016, 03:11 PM »
I'm not sure if your responding to me lol
You sell truck accessories!
These forums are here to share ideas and have good conversation
I'm fortunate to have years of experience with HVLP and decided move to a better system. I have sprayed around 40 Kitchens and too many cabinets
 I'm trying to make my jobs better and easier on my myself. I retired 4 years ago after 37 years in the oil gas industry,  power house, operation and maintenance.
Was involved in refinery grass-root startups, HP Boiler operation, Co-gen and water treatment plants.
I'm now happy to be involved in my passion

My pump setup is positioned outside my 8x10 spraybooth and have been using a 50 door vertical door rack

This is not a hobby but a business

 The Kremlin system is not rocket science!

Bruce
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 04:35 PM by brewster201 »
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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2016, 06:30 PM »
I'm not sure if your responding to me lol
You sell truck accessories!
These forums are here to share ideas and have good conversation
I'm fortunate to have years of experience with HVLP and decided move to a better system. I have sprayed around 40 Kitchens and too many cabinets
 I'm trying to make my jobs better and easier on my myself. I retired 4 years ago after 37 years in the oil gas industry,  power house, operation and maintenance.
Was involved in refinery grass-root startups, HP Boiler operation, Co-gen and water treatment plants.
I'm now happy to be involved in my passion

My pump setup is positioned outside my 8x10 spraybooth and have been using a 50 door vertical door rack

This is not a hobby but a business

 The Kremlin system is not rocket science!

Bruce

Bruce,

I read it as Hans is questioning the original poster.

Tom

Offline usatu

  • Posts: 121
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2016, 08:51 PM »
Thanks all especially Tom for your input. I am willing to learn although there is a huge learning curve for me. First thing in mind is safety then comes the finish. For sure I will use water based products  :) 

I am wondering whether 1000 cmf attic fan+ filter is good enough for ventilation? What kind of impact if I open the windows/door next to kitchen but not directly facing kitchen? Will that be helpful for ventilation if I spray in a calm day? Will dry paint particles travel that way and make a mess? 

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 63
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2016, 09:51 PM »
Oops I must apologize, sorry it was after my story

Too much coffee :-)

Bruce
Hand Woodworking

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2016, 10:09 PM »
I'm not sure if your responding to me lol
You sell truck accessories!
These forums are here to share ideas and have good conversation
I'm fortunate to have years of experience with HVLP and decided move to a better system. I have sprayed around 40 Kitchens and too many cabinets
 I'm trying to make my jobs better and easier on my myself. I retired 4 years ago after 37 years in the oil gas industry,  power house, operation and maintenance.
Was involved in refinery grass-root startups, HP Boiler operation, Co-gen and water treatment plants.
I'm now happy to be involved in my passion

My pump setup is positioned outside my 8x10 spraybooth and have been using a 50 door vertical door rack

This is not a hobby but a business

 The Kremlin system is not rocket science!

Bruce
My post was in response to the stated topic of this thread : "can a hobbyist spray . . ."
my suggestion, in keeping with sharing experience on this forum, is for a  hobbyist to consider the learning curve in finishing and practice in an environment that is more forgiving than a residential interior.
I had not considered that what I do for a living negates my decades of experience with finishing of all types of processes and qualifies me from making a suggestion intendeds to help.
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 63
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2016, 10:33 PM »
Sorry Hans but you came off as very condesending and really not very helpfull!!
One should not highlight there product info/TSO(retailer) in these forums!
Who cares!

Bruce



« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 10:46 PM by brewster201 »
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Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2016, 10:15 AM »
I'm trying to make my jobs better and easier on my myself. I retired 4 years ago after 37 years in the oil gas industry,  power house, operation and maintenance.
Was involved in refinery grass-root startups, HP Boiler operation, Co-gen and water treatment plants.
I'm now happy to be involved in my passion

Bruce:
Thanks for the background, nice story.

I notice that Richelieu is selling the 15-25c pumps and excite guns but not their other systems. Interesting.
Tim

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 63
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2016, 11:06 AM »
Hello Tim
 Thank You

Richelieu has the Kremlin EOS 10-C18,15-C25 and the 30C-C25 listed

Really enjoy the Xcite gun and have been using the fine finish tip from CAT #411. 30% cheaper than the Kremlin tip and works great

There is a wide range of tips for whatever your spraying, I had been using the Kem Aqua but this year now only Kem Aqua plus (Thanks to Tom)

I was fortunate when I purchased the system it included many spare parts and gun kits :-)


Bruce





Hand Woodworking

Offline mike_aa

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2016, 12:59 PM »
Sorry Hans but you came off as very condesending and really not very helpfull!!
One should not highlight there product info/TSO(retailer) in these forums!
Who cares!

Bruce

Hi @brewster201 As far as I know, retailers of Festool and aftermarket products are customarily recognized here on FOG.  If you peruse even this thread you will see at least one other post from another retailer.

That being said, I am happy that individual retailers like Hans from @TSO Products are active here.  He has been an incredibly helpful member in many ways and his innovative GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares are a superb addition to the various Festool aftermarket accessories that I have been exposed to on this forum.

Thanks, Mike A.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2016, 01:41 PM »
Take it easy Brewster. Hans' post was not condescending. He wasn't even addressing you, but you have such a chip on your shoulder that you assumed it must all be about you. Listing your credentials is actually a bit more condescending.

Hans' comments were quite appropriate to pose. If you knew him, you would immediately know that he is a very humble person.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2016, 03:03 PM »
Sorry Hans but you came off as very condesending and really not very helpfull!!
One should not highlight there product info/TSO(retailer) in these forums!
Who cares!

Bruce

Hi @brewster201 As far as I know, retailers of Festool and aftermarket products are customarily recognized here on FOG.  If you peruse even this thread you will see at least one other post from another retailer.

That being said, I am happy that individual retailers like Hans from @TSO Products are active here.  He has been an incredibly helpful member in many ways and his innovative GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares are a superb addition to the various Festool aftermarket accessories that I have been exposed to on this forum.

Thanks, Mike A.


I agree with you mike. Hans is a pleasure to work with and makes excellent products. I had the pleasure of talking with him at Connect on tons of topics and thoroughly think he is a massively excellent contributor to this forum.

Too many folks pipe up their opinions without a thought these days. In my opinion it is akin to not saying please and thank you and holding the door open for strangers.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 63
Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2016, 03:10 PM »
Ok yes I did jump on that, my apologies
Hand Woodworking

Offline Jeff2413

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Re: Can hobbist buy and spray pre-catalyzed lacquer on site?
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2016, 09:32 PM »
I have used the Duralaq along with sealer they recommend (can't recall the name).  Short of pre or post cat this is by far the best product I've used.  I'm not a fan of waterbournes but realize they do have their place.  The sanding sealer/undercoater sands like lacquer although doesn't do much for stain blocking if that's something you need.  The viscosity is lacquer like and sprayed wonderfully from my Kremlin.  It's not lacquer but it is waaaaaay ahead of the latex that used to be the only other alternative.  Give it a try if you can't use solvents.  I think you'll like it.