Author Topic: Graco Ultra  (Read 5273 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2017, 01:53 PM »
Have you tried the Graco Ultra with other paints? The first thing I thought when reading this topic is, does this happen with this paint only, or also with other paints? Because it totally does not look like a sprayer problem to me, if there was something wrong with the sprayer, you'd more or less see that immediately, and not a day later.

Hi Alex,
Haven't tried other paints yet with the Graco, as I spending my time trying to solve this issue.

JC

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2017, 01:56 PM »
Michael,

You may be on to something. I just checked a panel I did by brush and other then brush marks, there is grit on the surface. The panel was sanded smooth with Granat 320 before being brushed. Now what do I do. with over 30 years of painting by hand experience I have never seen this. By the way, 3 gallons were from one BM dealer and I bought 1 from an another dealer.

Cheers,
JC


It's funny, I was going to throw out the idea of bad paint.  I assumed you had ruled that out, and you have way more experience spraying than I do.  I'd get on the phone with your paint supplier and see what they have to think.

I'm starting to  think that may be the cause. I just tried the semi-gloss version of this paint and colour, Stone Harbor 2111-50, and it visibly went on smoother then they Pearl version.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2017, 04:22 PM »
Just received a phone call from Benjamin Moore Area rep for the GTA and she admitted that they had a bad batch of Regal Select Pearl Sheen. They found that because they didn't let the paint cool down long enough after mixing a batch at the factory, they were getting crystalization happening in the paint. In any case, she is coming by tomorrow to look at some samples and hopefully give me credit for 5 gallons of paint.

By the way, after 4 hours, the semi-gloss version of this paint tinted grey is looking good. But, I'll have to wait till the morning to either be disappointed or jumping for joy.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 03:55 PM »
Well, 24 hours later and it's crap. I have grit and solvent popping.
Had a meeting with Benjamin Moore today. They are stumped as well. "never seen that before" was her comment. Inother words I'm f........ked. Sorry for the language. Typing this as I'm tightening the noose around my neck.

JC

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3716
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2017, 04:26 PM »
Have you painted a piece of glass like someone mentioned?  That way you could determine if it’s the substrate or the paint.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2017, 08:30 AM »
Haven't given up yet. Working a new theory.
I do however believe that I found the right combination. 1.8 needle and cap, thinned 20% with water, full power on the Fuji Q5. Found out that it is not recommended that you mix water and BM Extender to thin the paint. If you need to go more then 10% thinning, use water and not a combination of both.

After much, very much testing, I have come to the conclusion that the issues I have been having is a chemical reaction between the fresh coat of paint being sprayed and the coat underneath which I typically let dry for 24 hours. Everytime I had a bad coat, I would sand the panel to much exposing the layer underneath which after 24 hours, had not fully cured and was still active. So when I would sprayed another layer on top, the solvents from the previous layer where re-activated with the fresh paint, thus causing solvent pop from the old layer through the new. Hopefully this makes sense.

So that's the theory I'm going with for the next round of experiments.

This morning I cut up 6 maple veneer panels that I will spray with Duralaq Undercoater, let dry for 2-3 hours, do a light sanding till smooth and apply the paint. Let see what happens.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2017, 11:21 AM »
This morning bright and early, I sprayed a test panel that I lightly sanded and a door that just had primer on it and 4 hour later they both look great. The real test will be in 24 hours. I think I'm on too something. Stay tuned.

JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 11:14 AM »
Well that theory didn't work.

Thanks everyone for you suggestions but I have decided to walk away from this and refund the client their deposit money. I gone through 7 gallons of paint trying to figure this out. There is something I'm doing wrong and I'm not able to figure that out.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2017, 08:55 AM »
I finally met with a lab tech from BM and they reviewed one of my panels and found that the panell was laced with white specs giving it  a rough feel and pitted surface. My question to him was, how do we get white specs when the paint colour is grey? Jis answer good question. We are stumped.

Well after much discussion and more testing, the BM reps in my area have basically thrown up their hands. They want to do more lab work at head office in Montreal, I think that is where head office is, but that could take up to 6 months before any concrete solution comes out of them. They did admit though that changing there formulas quite often in the last 12 months to reach zero VOC compliance has caused issues with other painters. Even their Gennex colouring system in now zero VOC compliant.

I have started to look at othe paint suppliers for an alternate solution. Sherwin Williams has released a new product, Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel which is water base but the issue I'm having is all of the SW retailers, even their commercial store, only carry the white and not any of the tint bases. It must be a Canadian thing.

Looked at Target Coatings for their EM6500 water-based Acrylic pigmented lacquer which is spray and brush friendly but no one in Canada carries it. See the issue is I need to find a product that I can spray and brush as there is a lot of brush work on this project.

Now many people have recommended that I spray the doors with a pigmented lacquer and then create a custom match for the crushable paint. Now this sounds pretty easy but the issue is that the pigmented lacquer will fade, change colour, yellow over a period of 6 months where the brushable acrylic paint will not. Thus this solution is not going to work either.

Maybe I can convince the client that I can paint them by hand and that orange peel generated by the roller sleeve is coming back in style. I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery then convincing the client.

Cheers,
JC


Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1022
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2017, 09:38 AM »
JC,  I don't mean this to be critical but trying to be helpful.  It seems to me you have problems with a variety of spray guns and also different medias that you use.  When we spoke on the phone a few weeks back, you wanted to hear how I achieved a great result spraying BM Advance.  After listening to me, rather than absorbing what I was saying, you instead gave me advice on what I was doing wrong and went on your way.   I admit, I'm not a painting expert but I am on to something. 

It sounds to me like you have a technique issue.  I think you're spraying too heavy a coat.  Try spraying a lighter coat.  The suggestion Cheese gave to try spray on glass was also a good suggestion.  Maybe you could shoot and post a video of you spraying and also include how you are thinning your paint? 

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5306
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2017, 07:51 PM »
I finally met with a lab tech from BM and they reviewed one of my panels and found that the panell was laced with white specs giving it  a rough feel and pitted surface. My question to him was, how do we get white specs when the paint colour is grey? Jis answer good question. We are stumped.

Well after much discussion and more testing, the BM reps in my area have basically thrown up their hands. They want to do more lab work at head office in Montreal, I think that is where head office is, but that could take up to 6 months before any concrete solution comes out of them. They did admit though that changing there formulas quite often in the last 12 months to reach zero VOC compliance has caused issues with other painters. Even their Gennex colouring system in now zero VOC compliant.

I have started to look at othe paint suppliers for an alternate solution. Sherwin Williams has released a new product, Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel which is water base but the issue I'm having is all of the SW retailers, even their commercial store, only carry the white and not any of the tint bases. It must be a Canadian thing.

Looked at Target Coatings for their EM6500 water-based Acrylic pigmented lacquer which is spray and brush friendly but no one in Canada carries it. See the issue is I need to find a product that I can spray and brush as there is a lot of brush work on this project.

Now many people have recommended that I spray the doors with a pigmented lacquer and then create a custom match for the crushable paint. Now this sounds pretty easy but the issue is that the pigmented lacquer will fade, change colour, yellow over a period of 6 months where the brushable acrylic paint will not. Thus this solution is not going to work either.

Maybe I can convince the client that I can paint them by hand and that orange peel generated by the roller sleeve is coming back in style. I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery then convincing the client.

Cheers,
JC

I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

Tom

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 82
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2017, 12:38 AM »
I'm not a pro AT ALL, and haven't had a huge amount of success with spraying - off and on it's been fine. I don't even have a dedicated spray room - I'm using a large HomeRight spray shelter outside... On my current project, I decided to try to sort it out.

I have/use an older model Graco Fine Finish gun, but was having similar issues with spraying multiple coats of General Finishes Top Coat satin... I'm finally happy with the finish... Here's what I did:

-Use GF's sanding sealer. I'm working with hard maple and mdf panels with maple veneer. I first spray the panels with sealer and sand them before I assemble the doors. This seals the edges of the panels, and makes the initial sanding easier. Then I assemble the doors and spray the finish with the doors laying flat. I had hoped they could be hung vertically, but that largely guaranteed runs.
-Sand ONLY to 220 - any finer sanding and the finish has difficulty adhering to what's under it. It can't grab, and you get an odd finish
 - kind of like what has been described. Sort of grainy, I guess. I HAD been sanding to 400, and was NOT happy at all. Going to 220 (per the instructions!)  is fine, and the final coat doesn't get/need sanding at all.
-Use finish extender (not thinner). This isn't so it can spray easier - These guns are more than powerful enough. It has to do with the way the finish DRIES. I use GF's Water based finish Extender. It seems to allow the finish to flow out better. Few, if any, drips, and the finish seems to lay/dry so much better.
-Turn the pressure down - I have my gun at about 2. You don't need a thick coat - multiple fine coats seems better.
-Use a fine nozzle. I am using a green 312 on my gun.

So, to add to the discussion - don't sand beyond 220, use an extender for the material, put multiple fine coats on, experiment with the spray setting and nozzle, but go light.
I'm feeling confident enough now in my results to finish my project, and like what I'm getting. As it gets cooler here in southern CA, though, I find the finishes don't dry/cure outdoors. As soon as I spray, I bring them indoors to cure.

Hope this gives people something to think about. I am REALLY liking my Graco - even though it's the old one with the crappy (but replaced by Graco for free) batteries. I wouldn't hesitate in getting an Ultra when this one croaks.
Larry

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2017, 01:52 PM »
I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

I tried, believe me I tried.
My wife is not keen on it so I haven't pursued it recently. Probably the only way now is the enter the Green card (diversity) lottery.
Tim

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7257
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 01:03 PM »
I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

I tried, believe me I tried.
My wife is not keen on it so I haven't pursued it recently. Probably the only way now is the enter the Green card (diversity) lottery.
Tim

Tim, there's a simple solution.  Trade your wife in for an American counterpart.  Two birds with one stone. [tongue]
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
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  • Posts: 1980
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2017, 12:17 PM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

What sheen is the Regal Select?

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

What sheen is the Regal Select?

Hi Scott,

Up here in Canada the sheen is Pearl. I believe you have Satin in the US.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Well the adventure continues.Using the following equipment.
Fuji Q5 Turbine
T70 Gun Siphon feed
3M PPS pressure cup instead of Fuji cup

Paint is BM Regal Select tinted to colour Stone Harbor 2111-50, sheen in Pearl. We don't have Satin up here in Canada and it does have a different sheen then the old Satin they use to have. I believe in the US it's still Satin.

Test that I have done are numerous, but I will try to summarize.
I have tried thinning 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20 25% using straight water, distilled, and the same with BM Extender. I have tried a combination of Extender with water. For example, 5% water and 5% Extender, 10% water and 5% extender, 10% extender 5 % water and so on. Combinations to numerous to list. Every one of these thin ratios have been tested with a 1.0, 1.3, 1.5, 1.8, 2.0, 2.5 needle and cap set with different levels of air on the turbine set at 60%, 75% and 100% for each needle size and thin ratio.
Primer used has been, BM Advance primer, SW Wall and Wood and Duralaq undercoater. Panel used were MDF and Maple ply.

When setting my fan pattern I try to get a 5-6"high and 1.5" width fan pattern that is misty on the outside. I attached a photo but remember it is sprayed on cardboard.

I have tried a single pass to achieve a 4 wet mils and two thin coats to achieve the required thickness with no success. The panels under all test look like crap. It doesn't matter what the primer is or what substrate I use. See attached photo.

I have tried the Graco Ultra, no thinning and 312 tip with same results.

I believe I'm doing something wrong. This worked a year ago on a kitchen I worked on as well as a project I completed in April of this year using the same paint and sheen but tinted BM Cloud White.

On Glass I get the same results as well.

Cheers,
JC



Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 117
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2017, 08:03 PM »
Try brushing a sample. I'm curious if the same thing happens.

Personally, with all the issues you've had I'd try a different paint. If you like BM try Advance. Or try something from SW, PPG or General Finishes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2017, 02:17 PM »
Tim, there's a simple solution.  Trade your wife in for an American counterpart.  Two birds with one stone. [tongue]

Doubtful I would be lucky enough to get one as good as my present wife...

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2017, 04:57 PM »
It's all about the air.

Watched a video of a paint specialist who explained the difference between non VOC paints from years ago to VOC paints today. One very large negative about VOC paints is that they dry extremely quick due to the large solids in the paint. This causes huge problems, even when cutting and rolling a room. Also, these paints do not like air movement. Makes the paint flash to quickly.
Now by adding extenders to paint you are actually adding VOC's to it, thus reducing dry times. Water is not enough as it does not extend dry time it just makes it thinner.

Now for air. I noticed today that I had a lot of air flowing through the spray booth and over the panels that caused the paint to flash quickly. Instead of doing a large test panel, 24"x16", I decided to do a small one, 12x14, and made sure that my body was in front of the panel preventing too much air from moving over the panel. The end result was a perfect panel, no grit, no orange peel and an extremely smooth coat of paint.

So I adjusted the speeds of my fans to 1/3 of their capacity and tried a large panel. I did use a 1.8 needle, but if this works, I will try 1.5 and 1.3. I will know in about 8 hours.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2017, 12:59 PM »
Now for air. I noticed today that I had a lot of air flowing through the spray booth and over the panels that caused the paint to flash quickly. Instead of doing a large test panel, 24"x16", I decided to do a small one, 12x14, and made sure that my body was in front of the panel preventing too much air from moving over the panel. The end result was a perfect panel, no grit, no orange peel and an extremely smooth coat of paint.

Well spoke to soon. After a couple of days of drying everything went south, even the small panel mentioned above, which looked great after 5-6 hours, but several days later crap.

I'm giving up on this. I don't know if it's me or the paint. Everything I try gives me hope after 5-8 hours of drying, but a couple of days later it turns to crap.

With lots of money spent on paint and equipment over the last couple of months with no success, my wife has finally busted a bubble and I don't blame her. I'm walking away from this project and will try refunding the client's down deposit, they wouldn't take it before, and sell some of the spray stuff I have.

Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.

Cheers,
JC
 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:05 PM by JCLP »