Author Topic: Graco Ultra  (Read 5275 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Graco Ultra
« on: October 27, 2017, 11:58 AM »
Thought I would share my latest toy. Picked it up this morning. Chose the corded version because I hate batteries and I'm not a fan of Dewalt.

Cheers,
JC

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RKA

  • Posts: 920
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 03:50 PM »
Very cool!  I got one a few months ago and have been postponing the work it was intended for.  Any tips you want to share would be welcome. 
-Raj

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7257
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 04:03 PM »
Since my spraying needs are pretty minimal, I've been tempted to buy an ultra.  If they offered a bare tool version I'd probably go for it.

Let us know for it works out for you.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3716
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 04:16 PM »
I’m also interested...was looking at one this summer, but I didn’t pull the pin. I’m also not a fan of Dewalt but I was considering the cordless version just for the convenience.

Offline Randel

  • Posts: 11
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 05:09 PM »
I noticed when they first came out that they pulsed the finish out so wasn't the most consistent for our work need would love to know if they fixed thats and if it performs more like an airless.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2017, 08:14 AM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

Offline TXFIVEO

  • Posts: 85
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2017, 08:49 AM »
I have had the Graco Ultra handheld (corded) version since February.  Have sprayed about 20 large doors averaging 8' tall and 4' wide.  Most of my painted doors are built with Poplar.  I've used Benjamin Moore Advance, Sherwin Williams Pro Classic, and Behr Marquee.  No problems whatsoever with fantastic results.  The pulse issue most likely is due to the setting not being high enough.  I run mine at 9-10 with the 312 or 514 tip most of the time with great results.   

Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 117
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2017, 10:19 AM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

How do you prep the raw wood before priming? Once primed what grit are you sanding to?

Since I'm looking at the picture on my phone, it's really tough see what's going on with the finish. Could you try and describe what you're seeing or feeling on the finish?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2017, 11:06 AM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

How do you prep the raw wood before priming? Once primed what grit are you sanding to?

Since I'm looking at the picture on my phone, it's really tough see what's going on with the finish. Could you try and describe what you're seeing or feeling on the finish?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The panels have 2 coats of primer, sanded 320 between coats. There is probably 3 coats of paint on this panel. Sanded baby smooth between coats with 320. When the paint os layed down it looks beautiful. No visible flaws and it looks like a wet lake. Something happens when it dries for about 24 hours. Feels like 600 grit sandpaper after 24 hours and the surface is not smooth.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Swordstriper

  • Posts: 6
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2017, 09:11 PM »
I am a painting contractor and use Fuji hvlp spray equipment too. Would you mind telling me what your  reasoning behind spraying BM regal select. I’ve followed your posts with very much interest.

Offline frodo

  • Posts: 63
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2017, 10:53 PM »
I have had the cordless ultra for half a year now and have had great results with it. No pulsating issues and smooth flow out with no thinning. (SW pro classic). Sprayed several doors and am happy with the finish.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2017, 07:33 AM »
I am a painting contractor and use Fuji hvlp spray equipment too. Would you mind telling me what your  reasoning behind spraying BM regal select. I’ve followed your posts with very much interest.
For this project, all I'm doing is replacing the doors and drawer fronts for the client's kitchen. They are going to paint their own cabinets and I'm going to spray the new doors and drawers fronts. The reason I'm using Regal Select is because there is a lot of trim and crown moulding that was done with this paint tinted BM Stone Harbor ( 2111-50). I would of liked to use Advance instead, but when you tint it the same colour it does dry noticeably different. Thus my predicament.

In saying that. I sprayed some Advance yesterday with my new Graco Ultra with a 312 nozzle, 12 inches from the surface and pressure set to 9. After approx 18 hours of drying, I'm getting the same crappy results.
I tried Advance with my Fuji Q5, thinned 10%, 1.8mil needle nad full power with no luck either.

I've been at this now for over a month and 4 gallons of paint with no success. There is something I'm doing worng and I'm stumped at what it could be. My wife is ticked as well.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Swordstriper

  • Posts: 6
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2017, 10:17 AM »
When the paint manufacturers changed paint formulations in 2010 to comply with Vic regulations stuff like this started cropping up. To me it sounds like solvent entrapment. Try spraying with a 1.3 mm and thin 20-25% plus add 1cup BM extender per gallon. Then hold the gun 3-4 inches from the surface you are spraying and with 50% overlap and lay it on 3-4 mild wet and see what happens. You are using sandpaper made for water base paints?

Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 117
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2017, 12:06 PM »
It's quite possible that your primers aren't sealing the MDF enough to prevent grain raise when you're applying your top coat.

I'd recommend trying an oil or shellac based primer such as CoverStain, BM 217, Bin or Seal Coat.


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Offline Swordstriper

  • Posts: 6
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2017, 06:31 PM »
Am l understanding right that this problem is happening over maple veneer also?

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2017, 07:56 PM »
Am l understanding right that this problem is happening over maple veneer also?
Yes. Maple veneer and mdf panels. After much practice and thought, I change my spraying method and after 8 hours of drying it looks good. Now the real test will be in the morning after 20+ hours of drying. Stay tuned.

JC

Offline TXFIVEO

  • Posts: 85
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2017, 09:58 PM »
I typically use BIN or KILZ with zero issues. 

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2017, 07:18 AM »
Well it's morning and the test panels look crappy. Not a smooth coat at all.
Therefore, after 1 week of ownership I have decided to sell my Graco Ultra corded. Check out the classified setion for details.

Thanks everyone for their ideas and help.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Swordstriper

  • Posts: 6
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2017, 09:08 AM »
Could you be a bit more specific on your procedure. What is the viscosity of the paint, how long are letting each coat dry, what is the temperature and humidity where you are spraying and where you are drying your pieces, what is the wet mil thickness on a panel that’s been sprayed. What kind of sand paper are you using and how are you getting rid of dust produced? I don’t want to spout off all kinds of irrelevant information.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2017, 09:25 AM »
Could you be a bit more specific on your procedure. What is the viscosity of the paint, how long are letting each coat dry, what is the temperature and humidity where you are spraying and where you are drying your pieces, what is the wet mil thickness on a panel that’s been sprayed. What kind of sand paper are you using and how are you getting rid of dust produced? I don’t want to spout off all kinds of irrelevant information.
Viscosity - Tried 30sec - 42 sec, thinned with water, tried thinning 15% water and 10% extender same crap
Drying - Coat looks creat after 4-5 hours of drying, however, after 24 hours looks crappy
Wet Mils - TDS says 3.8. Tried 4, 5. Same results
Temp and humididty - 72 F, 55-60-% humidity
Sanding - using Granat 320 grit
Dust removal - Vacuumed panels with Midi Dust Extractor and clean with damp lint free cloth with distilled water.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3021
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2017, 10:21 AM »
Hard to tell what is going on in the photo (I'm not an expert sprayer anyway but I do have plenty of experience with paint), and we still don't have enough info on the primer, but it looks like dry spots as in primer too thin (on the high spots in the wood texture) to keep finish from getting sucked into the wood.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2017, 10:36 AM »
Hard to tell what is going on in the photo (I'm not an expert sprayer anyway but I do have plenty of experience with paint), and we still don't have enough info on the primer, but it looks like dry spots as in primer too thin (on the high spots in the wood texture) to keep finish from getting sucked into the wood.

Multiple primes were used on multiple, 9 - 2'x2', test panels. Primers used were, Wall and Wood from SW, Advance primer from BM and Duralac from Lenmar. Two coats of primers for all panels. Every panel has a few coats of paint and each coat is given 24-48 hours to dry. Then they are sanded with Granat 320 paper by hand or by machine. Each coat after sanding is as smooth as a baby's bum, as they say.
Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2017, 10:38 AM »
The biggest pain in the behind is that everything looks good after 8 hours of drying, but then after 24 hours crap happens. So there is a lot of wasted time waiting till the next day to see the results.

JC

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3021
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2017, 10:45 AM »
Hard to tell what is going on in the photo (I'm not an expert sprayer anyway but I do have plenty of experience with paint), and we still don't have enough info on the primer, but it looks like dry spots as in primer too thin (on the high spots in the wood texture) to keep finish from getting sucked into the wood.

Multiple primes were used on multiple, 9 - 2'x2', test panels. Primers used were, Wall and Wood from SW, Advance primer from BM and Duralac from Lenmar. Two coats of primers for all panels. Every panel has a few coats of paint and each coat is given 24-48 hours to dry. Then they are sanded with Granat 320 paper by hand or by machine. Each coat after sanding is as smooth as a baby's bum, as they say.
Cheers,
JC

So uneven absorption is pretty much impossible?

How does the same finish mixture look 24 hours later when applied by brush? I know, another delay to find out...are there some spills on a surface that is close enough to similar?

I'm just wondering if it's a paint/pigment issue rather than a spraying issue. All 4 gallons from the same supplier?

Offline escan

  • Posts: 25
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2017, 10:47 AM »
If you're not burned out completely, I would try isolating the top coat and bottom coat finishes by spraying a pane of glass.

Recently, I picked up a merkur 30:1 for wb lacquer and latex that was a struggle with my 1050 apollo. I read about your success with pressure pots and almost went that route. I can spray one coat with the AAA that took 2, maybe 3 coats with the apollo, and the end result is so smooth. 

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2017, 11:31 AM »
Hard to tell what is going on in the photo (I'm not an expert sprayer anyway but I do have plenty of experience with paint), and we still don't have enough info on the primer, but it looks like dry spots as in primer too thin (on the high spots in the wood texture) to keep finish from getting sucked into the wood.

Multiple primes were used on multiple, 9 - 2'x2', test panels. Primers used were, Wall and Wood from SW, Advance primer from BM and Duralac from Lenmar. Two coats of primers for all panels. Every panel has a few coats of paint and each coat is given 24-48 hours to dry. Then they are sanded with Granat 320 paper by hand or by machine. Each coat after sanding is as smooth as a baby's bum, as they say.
Cheers,
JC

So uneven absorption is pretty much impossible?

How does the same finish mixture look 24 hours later when applied by brush? I know, another delay to find out...are there some spills on a surface that is close enough to similar?

I'm just wondering if it's a paint/pigment issue rather than a spraying issue. All 4 gallons from the same supplier?
Michael,

You may be on to something. I just checked a panel I did by brush and other then brush marks, there is grit on the surface. The panel was sanded smooth with Granat 320 before being brushed. Now what do I do. with over 30 years of painting by hand experience I have never seen this. By the way, 3 gallons were from one BM dealer and I bought 1 from an another dealer.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 11:35 AM »
If you're not burned out completely, I would try isolating the top coat and bottom coat finishes by spraying a pane of glass.

Recently, I picked up a merkur 30:1 for wb lacquer and latex that was a struggle with my 1050 apollo. I read about your success with pressure pots and almost went that route. I can spray one coat with the AAA that took 2, maybe 3 coats with the apollo, and the end result is so smooth.

About a year ago, I sprayed it with a pressure pot attached to my Fuji T70 gun and I did get good results. Recently tried again and got the same crap. As mentioned by Michael Kellough I'm leaning towards a paint/pigment issue. As I am getting grit, even by hand, I'm going to try filtering the paint through a 125 micron filter and see what I get.

JC

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7257
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2017, 12:32 PM »
Michael,

You may be on to something. I just checked a panel I did by brush and other then brush marks, there is grit on the surface. The panel was sanded smooth with Granat 320 before being brushed. Now what do I do. with over 30 years of painting by hand experience I have never seen this. By the way, 3 gallons were from one BM dealer and I bought 1 from an another dealer.

Cheers,
JC


It's funny, I was going to throw out the idea of bad paint.  I assumed you had ruled that out, and you have way more experience spraying than I do.  I'd get on the phone with your paint supplier and see what they have to think.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3021
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2017, 12:41 PM »
If you're not burned out completely, I would try isolating the top coat and bottom coat finishes by spraying a pane of glass.

Recently, I picked up a merkur 30:1 for wb lacquer and latex that was a struggle with my 1050 apollo. I read about your success with pressure pots and almost went that route. I can spray one coat with the AAA that took 2, maybe 3 coats with the apollo, and the end result is so smooth.

About a year ago, I sprayed it with a pressure pot attached to my Fuji T70 gun and I did get good results. Recently tried again and got the same crap. As mentioned by Michael Kellough I'm leaning towards a paint/pigment issue. As I am getting grit, even by hand, I'm going to try filtering the paint through a 125 micron filter and see what I get.
JC

If the filter does remove something then the color will change?

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5496
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2017, 01:07 PM »
Have you tried the Graco Ultra with other paints? The first thing I thought when reading this topic is, does this happen with this paint only, or also with other paints? Because it totally does not look like a sprayer problem to me, if there was something wrong with the sprayer, you'd more or less see that immediately, and not a day later.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2017, 01:53 PM »
Have you tried the Graco Ultra with other paints? The first thing I thought when reading this topic is, does this happen with this paint only, or also with other paints? Because it totally does not look like a sprayer problem to me, if there was something wrong with the sprayer, you'd more or less see that immediately, and not a day later.

Hi Alex,
Haven't tried other paints yet with the Graco, as I spending my time trying to solve this issue.

JC

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2017, 01:56 PM »
Michael,

You may be on to something. I just checked a panel I did by brush and other then brush marks, there is grit on the surface. The panel was sanded smooth with Granat 320 before being brushed. Now what do I do. with over 30 years of painting by hand experience I have never seen this. By the way, 3 gallons were from one BM dealer and I bought 1 from an another dealer.

Cheers,
JC


It's funny, I was going to throw out the idea of bad paint.  I assumed you had ruled that out, and you have way more experience spraying than I do.  I'd get on the phone with your paint supplier and see what they have to think.

I'm starting to  think that may be the cause. I just tried the semi-gloss version of this paint and colour, Stone Harbor 2111-50, and it visibly went on smoother then they Pearl version.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2017, 04:22 PM »
Just received a phone call from Benjamin Moore Area rep for the GTA and she admitted that they had a bad batch of Regal Select Pearl Sheen. They found that because they didn't let the paint cool down long enough after mixing a batch at the factory, they were getting crystalization happening in the paint. In any case, she is coming by tomorrow to look at some samples and hopefully give me credit for 5 gallons of paint.

By the way, after 4 hours, the semi-gloss version of this paint tinted grey is looking good. But, I'll have to wait till the morning to either be disappointed or jumping for joy.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 03:55 PM »
Well, 24 hours later and it's crap. I have grit and solvent popping.
Had a meeting with Benjamin Moore today. They are stumped as well. "never seen that before" was her comment. Inother words I'm f........ked. Sorry for the language. Typing this as I'm tightening the noose around my neck.

JC

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3716
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2017, 04:26 PM »
Have you painted a piece of glass like someone mentioned?  That way you could determine if it’s the substrate or the paint.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2017, 08:30 AM »
Haven't given up yet. Working a new theory.
I do however believe that I found the right combination. 1.8 needle and cap, thinned 20% with water, full power on the Fuji Q5. Found out that it is not recommended that you mix water and BM Extender to thin the paint. If you need to go more then 10% thinning, use water and not a combination of both.

After much, very much testing, I have come to the conclusion that the issues I have been having is a chemical reaction between the fresh coat of paint being sprayed and the coat underneath which I typically let dry for 24 hours. Everytime I had a bad coat, I would sand the panel to much exposing the layer underneath which after 24 hours, had not fully cured and was still active. So when I would sprayed another layer on top, the solvents from the previous layer where re-activated with the fresh paint, thus causing solvent pop from the old layer through the new. Hopefully this makes sense.

So that's the theory I'm going with for the next round of experiments.

This morning I cut up 6 maple veneer panels that I will spray with Duralaq Undercoater, let dry for 2-3 hours, do a light sanding till smooth and apply the paint. Let see what happens.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2017, 11:21 AM »
This morning bright and early, I sprayed a test panel that I lightly sanded and a door that just had primer on it and 4 hour later they both look great. The real test will be in 24 hours. I think I'm on too something. Stay tuned.

JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 11:14 AM »
Well that theory didn't work.

Thanks everyone for you suggestions but I have decided to walk away from this and refund the client their deposit money. I gone through 7 gallons of paint trying to figure this out. There is something I'm doing wrong and I'm not able to figure that out.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2017, 08:55 AM »
I finally met with a lab tech from BM and they reviewed one of my panels and found that the panell was laced with white specs giving it  a rough feel and pitted surface. My question to him was, how do we get white specs when the paint colour is grey? Jis answer good question. We are stumped.

Well after much discussion and more testing, the BM reps in my area have basically thrown up their hands. They want to do more lab work at head office in Montreal, I think that is where head office is, but that could take up to 6 months before any concrete solution comes out of them. They did admit though that changing there formulas quite often in the last 12 months to reach zero VOC compliance has caused issues with other painters. Even their Gennex colouring system in now zero VOC compliant.

I have started to look at othe paint suppliers for an alternate solution. Sherwin Williams has released a new product, Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel which is water base but the issue I'm having is all of the SW retailers, even their commercial store, only carry the white and not any of the tint bases. It must be a Canadian thing.

Looked at Target Coatings for their EM6500 water-based Acrylic pigmented lacquer which is spray and brush friendly but no one in Canada carries it. See the issue is I need to find a product that I can spray and brush as there is a lot of brush work on this project.

Now many people have recommended that I spray the doors with a pigmented lacquer and then create a custom match for the crushable paint. Now this sounds pretty easy but the issue is that the pigmented lacquer will fade, change colour, yellow over a period of 6 months where the brushable acrylic paint will not. Thus this solution is not going to work either.

Maybe I can convince the client that I can paint them by hand and that orange peel generated by the roller sleeve is coming back in style. I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery then convincing the client.

Cheers,
JC


Offline Jim Kirkpatrick

  • Posts: 1022
    • Jim Kirkpatrick Woodworking
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2017, 09:38 AM »
JC,  I don't mean this to be critical but trying to be helpful.  It seems to me you have problems with a variety of spray guns and also different medias that you use.  When we spoke on the phone a few weeks back, you wanted to hear how I achieved a great result spraying BM Advance.  After listening to me, rather than absorbing what I was saying, you instead gave me advice on what I was doing wrong and went on your way.   I admit, I'm not a painting expert but I am on to something. 

It sounds to me like you have a technique issue.  I think you're spraying too heavy a coat.  Try spraying a lighter coat.  The suggestion Cheese gave to try spray on glass was also a good suggestion.  Maybe you could shoot and post a video of you spraying and also include how you are thinning your paint? 

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5306
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2017, 07:51 PM »
I finally met with a lab tech from BM and they reviewed one of my panels and found that the panell was laced with white specs giving it  a rough feel and pitted surface. My question to him was, how do we get white specs when the paint colour is grey? Jis answer good question. We are stumped.

Well after much discussion and more testing, the BM reps in my area have basically thrown up their hands. They want to do more lab work at head office in Montreal, I think that is where head office is, but that could take up to 6 months before any concrete solution comes out of them. They did admit though that changing there formulas quite often in the last 12 months to reach zero VOC compliance has caused issues with other painters. Even their Gennex colouring system in now zero VOC compliant.

I have started to look at othe paint suppliers for an alternate solution. Sherwin Williams has released a new product, Emerald Urethane Trim Enamel which is water base but the issue I'm having is all of the SW retailers, even their commercial store, only carry the white and not any of the tint bases. It must be a Canadian thing.

Looked at Target Coatings for their EM6500 water-based Acrylic pigmented lacquer which is spray and brush friendly but no one in Canada carries it. See the issue is I need to find a product that I can spray and brush as there is a lot of brush work on this project.

Now many people have recommended that I spray the doors with a pigmented lacquer and then create a custom match for the crushable paint. Now this sounds pretty easy but the issue is that the pigmented lacquer will fade, change colour, yellow over a period of 6 months where the brushable acrylic paint will not. Thus this solution is not going to work either.

Maybe I can convince the client that I can paint them by hand and that orange peel generated by the roller sleeve is coming back in style. I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery then convincing the client.

Cheers,
JC

I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

Tom

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 82
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2017, 12:38 AM »
I'm not a pro AT ALL, and haven't had a huge amount of success with spraying - off and on it's been fine. I don't even have a dedicated spray room - I'm using a large HomeRight spray shelter outside... On my current project, I decided to try to sort it out.

I have/use an older model Graco Fine Finish gun, but was having similar issues with spraying multiple coats of General Finishes Top Coat satin... I'm finally happy with the finish... Here's what I did:

-Use GF's sanding sealer. I'm working with hard maple and mdf panels with maple veneer. I first spray the panels with sealer and sand them before I assemble the doors. This seals the edges of the panels, and makes the initial sanding easier. Then I assemble the doors and spray the finish with the doors laying flat. I had hoped they could be hung vertically, but that largely guaranteed runs.
-Sand ONLY to 220 - any finer sanding and the finish has difficulty adhering to what's under it. It can't grab, and you get an odd finish
 - kind of like what has been described. Sort of grainy, I guess. I HAD been sanding to 400, and was NOT happy at all. Going to 220 (per the instructions!)  is fine, and the final coat doesn't get/need sanding at all.
-Use finish extender (not thinner). This isn't so it can spray easier - These guns are more than powerful enough. It has to do with the way the finish DRIES. I use GF's Water based finish Extender. It seems to allow the finish to flow out better. Few, if any, drips, and the finish seems to lay/dry so much better.
-Turn the pressure down - I have my gun at about 2. You don't need a thick coat - multiple fine coats seems better.
-Use a fine nozzle. I am using a green 312 on my gun.

So, to add to the discussion - don't sand beyond 220, use an extender for the material, put multiple fine coats on, experiment with the spray setting and nozzle, but go light.
I'm feeling confident enough now in my results to finish my project, and like what I'm getting. As it gets cooler here in southern CA, though, I find the finishes don't dry/cure outdoors. As soon as I spray, I bring them indoors to cure.

Hope this gives people something to think about. I am REALLY liking my Graco - even though it's the old one with the crappy (but replaced by Graco for free) batteries. I wouldn't hesitate in getting an Ultra when this one croaks.
Larry

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2017, 01:52 PM »
I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

I tried, believe me I tried.
My wife is not keen on it so I haven't pursued it recently. Probably the only way now is the enter the Green card (diversity) lottery.
Tim

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7257
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2017, 01:03 PM »
I think the real issue is you need to move out of Canada.  [big grin]

I tried, believe me I tried.
My wife is not keen on it so I haven't pursued it recently. Probably the only way now is the enter the Green card (diversity) lottery.
Tim

Tim, there's a simple solution.  Trade your wife in for an American counterpart.  Two birds with one stone. [tongue]
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1980
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2017, 12:17 PM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

What sheen is the Regal Select?

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Well well well,
For a while now I have been experimenting with spraying BM Regal Select tinted grey with my Fuji Q5 and T70 gun and I have had no success. I've tried every combination of needle and cap sizes and different levels of thinning from 5% to 30% and with every needle from 1.3 up to 2.5. Four gallons later and I was not any further ahead then when I started.
So I went out and purchased the Graco Ultra and thought I would try airless instead. After 8 hours of drying time, the test panels looked great and I was overjoyed to have solved my problem. But, after 24 hours of curing the panels look like crap. The attached photo is what I'm getting.

Some of my panel are MDF and maple veneer plywood, primed twice with either Wall & Wood primer from Sherwing Williams, BM Advanced primer and Lenmar Duralack undercoater. It doesn't seem to matter what the primer I use I get the same results.

Back to the drawing board.

JC

What sheen is the Regal Select?

Hi Scott,

Up here in Canada the sheen is Pearl. I believe you have Satin in the US.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Well the adventure continues.Using the following equipment.
Fuji Q5 Turbine
T70 Gun Siphon feed
3M PPS pressure cup instead of Fuji cup

Paint is BM Regal Select tinted to colour Stone Harbor 2111-50, sheen in Pearl. We don't have Satin up here in Canada and it does have a different sheen then the old Satin they use to have. I believe in the US it's still Satin.

Test that I have done are numerous, but I will try to summarize.
I have tried thinning 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20 25% using straight water, distilled, and the same with BM Extender. I have tried a combination of Extender with water. For example, 5% water and 5% Extender, 10% water and 5% extender, 10% extender 5 % water and so on. Combinations to numerous to list. Every one of these thin ratios have been tested with a 1.0, 1.3, 1.5, 1.8, 2.0, 2.5 needle and cap set with different levels of air on the turbine set at 60%, 75% and 100% for each needle size and thin ratio.
Primer used has been, BM Advance primer, SW Wall and Wood and Duralaq undercoater. Panel used were MDF and Maple ply.

When setting my fan pattern I try to get a 5-6"high and 1.5" width fan pattern that is misty on the outside. I attached a photo but remember it is sprayed on cardboard.

I have tried a single pass to achieve a 4 wet mils and two thin coats to achieve the required thickness with no success. The panels under all test look like crap. It doesn't matter what the primer is or what substrate I use. See attached photo.

I have tried the Graco Ultra, no thinning and 312 tip with same results.

I believe I'm doing something wrong. This worked a year ago on a kitchen I worked on as well as a project I completed in April of this year using the same paint and sheen but tinted BM Cloud White.

On Glass I get the same results as well.

Cheers,
JC



Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 117
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2017, 08:03 PM »
Try brushing a sample. I'm curious if the same thing happens.

Personally, with all the issues you've had I'd try a different paint. If you like BM try Advance. Or try something from SW, PPG or General Finishes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2017, 02:17 PM »
Tim, there's a simple solution.  Trade your wife in for an American counterpart.  Two birds with one stone. [tongue]

Doubtful I would be lucky enough to get one as good as my present wife...

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2017, 04:57 PM »
It's all about the air.

Watched a video of a paint specialist who explained the difference between non VOC paints from years ago to VOC paints today. One very large negative about VOC paints is that they dry extremely quick due to the large solids in the paint. This causes huge problems, even when cutting and rolling a room. Also, these paints do not like air movement. Makes the paint flash to quickly.
Now by adding extenders to paint you are actually adding VOC's to it, thus reducing dry times. Water is not enough as it does not extend dry time it just makes it thinner.

Now for air. I noticed today that I had a lot of air flowing through the spray booth and over the panels that caused the paint to flash quickly. Instead of doing a large test panel, 24"x16", I decided to do a small one, 12x14, and made sure that my body was in front of the panel preventing too much air from moving over the panel. The end result was a perfect panel, no grit, no orange peel and an extremely smooth coat of paint.

So I adjusted the speeds of my fans to 1/3 of their capacity and tried a large panel. I did use a 1.8 needle, but if this works, I will try 1.5 and 1.3. I will know in about 8 hours.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 740
Re: Graco Ultra
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2017, 12:59 PM »
Now for air. I noticed today that I had a lot of air flowing through the spray booth and over the panels that caused the paint to flash quickly. Instead of doing a large test panel, 24"x16", I decided to do a small one, 12x14, and made sure that my body was in front of the panel preventing too much air from moving over the panel. The end result was a perfect panel, no grit, no orange peel and an extremely smooth coat of paint.

Well spoke to soon. After a couple of days of drying everything went south, even the small panel mentioned above, which looked great after 5-6 hours, but several days later crap.

I'm giving up on this. I don't know if it's me or the paint. Everything I try gives me hope after 5-8 hours of drying, but a couple of days later it turns to crap.

With lots of money spent on paint and equipment over the last couple of months with no success, my wife has finally busted a bubble and I don't blame her. I'm walking away from this project and will try refunding the client's down deposit, they wouldn't take it before, and sell some of the spray stuff I have.

Thanks everyone for your help and ideas.

Cheers,
JC
 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:05 PM by JCLP »