Author Topic: I'm totally confused  (Read 4477 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
I'm totally confused
« on: July 23, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Good morning All. I have a weird problem and I'm looking for any suggestions on how to fix it.
I have a large panel about the size of a 2"x12"x6' that I'm trying to spray, with no luck.
I'm using a Q5 with the air set at approx. 3/4 power. I'm using a T70 with a 1.5mm needle and cap with 3M PPS pressure pot.
The paint I'm spraying is BM Regal Select conditioned with 10% BM Extender.
The problem is, when I spray a grey colour, Stone Habor, the finish coat is perfect. No orange peel, no grit and perfect coverage. But, when I spray a different colour, Dove White, the finish comes out gritty and it doesn't level out. Same paint base is used for both colours. Everything is the same for both paints, just the colour is different.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
JC

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 292
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 03:44 PM »
Hi,

The only thing I can think of is the white could be old stock? I have pulled my hair out trying to get rid of a gritty finish using CV and it turned out the bucket was very old although I bought it just a few days before using. Tried a new bucket and it went down like glass  [cool]

Other than that I would have said a clear base with the grey and pigmented with the white but you ruled that out.

Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 05:38 PM »
Hi,

The only thing I can think of is the white could be old stock? I have pulled my hair out trying to get rid of a gritty finish using CV and it turned out the bucket was very old although I bought it just a few days before using. Tried a new bucket and it went down like glass  [cool]

Other than that I would have said a clear base with the grey and pigmented with the white but you ruled that out.

Gerry
Hi Gerry. Both the grey and the white have the same batch number and were purchased at the same time. Both gallons were from the same box. Almost done my second gallon of white dove with no success. At $60 a gallon it's getting expensive.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 273
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 05:58 PM »
If the paints are different colors than the paints aren't "identical".  Different pigments can have different effects on the paint binder. There's also a chance that even if the pigments were formulated to work the same in the paint binder, that there was some specific issue with the batch of pigment used to mix the one color. You might want to contact the paint supllier and see if they have a suggestion, or have had other issues. 

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 06:14 PM »
If the paints are different colors than the paints aren't "identical".  Different pigments can have different effects on the paint binder. There's also a chance that even if the pigments were formulated to work the same in the paint binder, that there was some specific issue with the batch of pigment used to mix the one color. You might want to contact the paint supllier and see if they have a suggestion, or have had other issues.
I thought about that. When I spray Cloud White, same paint, it uses the same pigments, just different quatities then White Dove. Here are the formulations for both.
White Dove - OC17
   Y3    Ox    3.000  ( Oxide yellow )
   S2   Ox   18.500 ( Gray )

Cloud White - CC-40
   Y3   Ox   2.500  ( Oxide yellow )
   S2   Ox   12.000 ( Gray )

No issues spraying Cloud White. I did an identical panel in Cloud White for the same client and it turned out great. Same needle, same air presuure same size of fan.

Still confused, or as Bill would say, "Most Confused"

Cheers,
JC

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 06:18 PM »
JC, try spraying the Dove White thru your hand held.

Hard to believe 7/32nds (6.5 of S2 and 0.5 of Y3) of an ounce of colorant difference is having that great of an effect on the finish quality.

I could see more problems with the Stone Harbor, it has almost 2 ounces of colorant in it.

Tom

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 292
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 10:57 PM »
I agree with Tom, the small amount of pigment added should not change the way it lays down. If possible you might want to ask for the paint store to mix up a fresh gallon for you.

It is rare for the paint shops to get it wrong but it does happen.

Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 379
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 08:48 AM »
@JCLP  Did you filter the paint?
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 09:56 AM »
@JCLP  Did you filter the paint?
The paint was filtered twice. Once when poured into the the cup and a second time through the filter on the PPS lid.

Cheers,

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 12:10 PM »
JCLP:

You don't mention anywhere above if you tried increasing your Q5 back up to 100% or anything else, did you?

I have a motor speed control that I can use on my Q4.  The first and only time I tried it spraying the first coat of three reduced to 75%(by ear) with poly, it produced a somewhat dry spray.  I returned to full power for the next two coats planning to try this again at a later date.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 12:18 PM »
JCLP:

You don't mention anywhere above if you tried increasing your Q5 back up to 100% or anything else, did you?

I have a motor speed control that I can use on my Q4.  The first and only time I tried it spraying the first coat of three reduced to 75%(by ear) with poly, it produced a somewhat dry spray.  I returned to full power for the next two coats planning to try this again at a later date.
Hi Bill,

I do have the Q5 at full power but I have the air reduced at the gun down to about 75%. This is what I used for the other colours with good success. If I spray Advance, full air all the way.

Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 03:47 PM »
So, I decided to put the White Dove aside and spray some grey to see what would happen. Well, the grey looks great. Too bad I'm not able to convince the client to go with grey instead of white.

Is it me or is the paint? That is the question. Hopefully it's me, as I can be fixed.

Cheers,
JC

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 03:57 PM »
Hi Bill,

I do have the Q5 at full power but I have the air reduced at the gun down to about 75%. This is what I used for the other colours with good success. If I spray Advance, full air all the way.

Cheers,
JC
Those ball valves at the gun are flow controls not really a pressure reducer in the true sense of the word.  Look how much one has to pay for a air regulator compared to a simple ball valve one can but at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.  No real way for "us" to test this but is this the reason why Fuji and other brand(s) slow the motor down instead??  Makes one wonder! [unsure]

I know its more convenient to have a control right there at the gun.  Since on my setup the speed control is external in the power input I can use extensions to get it at least in your spray booth or area where you are spraying.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3473
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 10:27 AM »
Those ball valves at the gun are flow controls not really a pressure reducer in the true sense of the word.

Interesting point.
Tim

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 11:38 AM »
Just got some new paint. Will give this one a try. Met with the benjamin Moore District person and they are going to bring the bad gallon to their lab and investigate.
Now off to spray. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Cheers,
JC

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 01:03 PM »
Interesting point.
Tim
A regulator valve doesn't adjust flow either!
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2017, 04:28 PM »
Well I've come to the conclusion it's me. No problem with the paint now. Able to do smaller panels with white and no issues, but this large one has me wanting to jump off a bridge. Maybe lazer eye surgery will help or maybe just change the angle of the lighting to better see the paint going down.
 Going to try one more time, if that doesn't work, I will get Tim to spray it.

Cheers,
JC

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5271
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2017, 08:03 AM »
I think you're going to have to spray the larger panels with your hand held airless. I'm not sure why you're having issues with the Fuji on larger panels, but I believe the hand held should solve the issue.

Tom

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2017, 09:08 AM »
Hi Tom,
My handheld fell on to concrete and bent the end. It was not fixable so I trashed it.
I've attached 2 photos. One is the grey, with the nickle so the camera could focus on something, and the other is the white that looks like sand paper. White is White Dove and the grey is Stone Harbor. Same base for both colours. Same needle, same air pressure same thinning.
The white looks grey in the photo because of the lighting. Trust me it's white. The grey is with the nickel.

Cheers,
JC
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 09:11 AM by JCLP »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1378
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2017, 09:34 AM »
I don't spray often, well almost never.  But that looks like orange peel to my eye.

Which usually means the paint hasn't been thinned enough. 

But that doesn't explain why the other one goes down fine.  [unsure]

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2017, 09:36 AM »
I don't spray often, well almost never.  But that looks like orange peel to my eye.

Which usually means the paint hasn't been thinned enough. 

But that doesn't explain why the other one goes down fine.  [unsure]

Both colours are thinned by 10% with benjamin moore extender. I have tried water and I get the same results for both. I would think that the grey would be thicker as it has more colorant in it. Make sense?

JC

Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 113
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2017, 09:58 AM »
Are all the panels built out of the same material?

Does the large panel look good right after you've finished spraying it or does it look gritty?

I'm wondering if the Regal Select is reacting to the substrate or primer. What initial prep was done? What primer did you use? I don't think this has been discussed yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2017, 10:38 AM »
Are all the panels built out of the same material?

Does the large panel look good right after you've finished spraying it or does it look gritty?

I'm wondering if the Regal Select is reacting to the substrate or primer. What initial prep was done? What primer did you use? I don't think this has been discussed yet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both panels were prepared the same. Two coats of Sherwin Williams wall & wood primer. Sanded 320 between coats. When I spray the Grey colour, you can see the wet look start to happen after about 30 seconds of laying it down. The White, goes on lumpy and dries gritty. I would think the white would be thinner then the grey due to less colorant. But I could be wrong.
I just sprayed a test panel with white and thinned it with 10% Extender, as before, but added 10% distilled water. It when on nice, after 15 minutes there was no visible lumps or grit. It leaves me to believe that the additional colorants in the grey must condition the paint more then the white. Here are the formulas for both.

White Dove - OC17
   Y3    Ox    3.000  ( Oxide yellow )
   S2   Ox   18.500 ( Gray )

Stone Harbor - 2111-50
   S1   Ox   20.000   ( Black )
   R3   Ox   25.500  ( Oxide red )
   G1   1X   4.000   ( Thalo green )

Cheers,
JC

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2017, 12:23 PM »
JCLP:

Maybe just wrong wording but Extenders slow the drying process but don't thin as the additional water would.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2017, 12:48 PM »
JCLP:

Maybe just wrong wording but Extenders slow the drying process but don't thin as the additional water would.
Hi Bill,

Looks like your on to something. The extender in the grey colour works great with no additional water.
Attached is a photo of the white with 10% Extender and 10% water. I'm going to try just 10% water and see what happens.

The colour in the photo is a little messed up, but no lumps or grit. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Bob Wolfe

  • Posts: 80
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2017, 10:24 PM »
I would say that to compare the two paints, you have to start with a viscosity reading on both paints.  If viscosity is the same then the paint chemistry is different. That is a different problem with different solutions.
I  start with a viscosity reading, tells me what needles to use and where to set the air.
 I use a Graco 9.5 turbine with Graco and Accuspray guns.

BW

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1378
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2017, 11:39 AM »
You might try spraying the white with a 2.0mm tip.

Offline QuailRider43

  • Posts: 81
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 09:13 AM »
Agree with above.  Extender helps level out the paint after it's laid down (slows drying), water thins the paint allowing for proper atomization through the gun.  You will usually need to add both when spraying acrylic latex.  Also, 1.5 mm tip is too small for acrylic latex.  Tip >2 mm is generally recommended for latex.  Pressure pots, bottom feed guns etc have slightly different tip recommendations.  Primers use 1.5 mm - 1.8 mm (depending on type), and clear coats generally 1.3 - 1.5 mm.  Lots of variables with HVLP.  I found this book very helpful:  Spray Finishing Made Simple by Jeff Jewitt.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 09:43 AM by QuailRider43 »

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 12:02 PM »
Agree with above.  Extender helps level out the paint after it's laid down (slows drying), water thins the paint allowing for proper atomization through the gun.  You will usually need to add both when spraying acrylic latex.  Also, 1.5 mm tip is too small for acrylic latex.  Tip >2 mm is generally recommended for latex.  Pressure pots, bottom feed guns etc have slightly different tip recommendations.  Primers use 1.5 mm - 1.8 mm (depending on type), and clear coats generally 1.3 - 1.5 mm.  Lots of variables with HVLP.  I found this book very helpful:  Spray Finishing Made Simple by Jeff Jewitt.
Thank you for this. I was trying to lay down a thin coat with a 1.3 needle and kept getting fish eyes. I just sprayed a test panel with a 1.8 needle and it went down great, no fish eyes or grit. I guess this paint doesn't like getting squeezed through a small orifice. Should know in about 2 hours how it turned out. Stay tuned.

JC

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1378
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 10:18 PM »
 I thought that was common knowledge.   [unsure]

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 737
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2017, 01:26 PM »
Damm. Nothing is working. Can't get a good finish.
I would use other words to describe how I feel, but I think I would be kicked off the FOG.

JC

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline antss

  • Posts: 1378
Re: I'm totally confused
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 02:06 PM »
 I feel your pain.  It's frustrating just following along.

What is the current setup that seems worse than all the others ?  Is the same issue happening or is it a different dried finish this go ?

I think you're at:
10% water
1.8mm tip

-Have you take a viscosity reading of both colors ?
-Have you tried thinning the paint more ? maybe 15% ?
-Have you acquired a 2mm tip ? Or even a larger one!

I'd try thinning a bit more with the same 1.8mm tip ?