Author Topic: I got Blue, not Green  (Read 11765 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2017, 03:42 PM »
Well the adventure continued this morning with no success. Following what I was able to do a few days ago, the HVLP spray gods have decided to mess me up again. As it is hard to beat a higher power, I decided to put HVLP aside and try airless. So I took out my Graco TrueCoat Pro II handheld sprayer and give a try. Using a 311 tip and about 1200psi I sprayed a couple panels and they looked great, just like a wet lake, when they were wet but after a few hours of drying all of a sudden lumps, pin holes appeared. I have no idea what I did wrong.

So after a few hours of contemplating I have decided to hang up the sprayers and farm the work out to someone else. I can't remember the last time, if any, I gave up but I have to listen to the sprayer gods that I am not meant to spray and no matter I try they will not let me succeed.

Thanks everyone for their assistant over the last year or so.

Cheers,
JC

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Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2017, 03:52 PM »
Well the adventure continued this morning with no success. Following what I was able to do a few days ago, the HVLP spray gods have decided to mess me up again. As it is hard to beat a higher power, I decided to put HVLP aside and try airless. So I took out my Graco TrueCoat Pro II handheld sprayer and give a try. Using a 311 tip and about 1200psi I sprayed a couple panels and they looked great, just like a wet lake, when they were wet but after a few hours of drying all of a sudden lumps, pin holes appeared. I have no idea what I did wrong.

So after a few hours of contemplating I have decided to hang up the sprayers and farm the work out to someone else. I can't remember the last time, if any, I gave up but I have to listen to the sprayer gods that I am not meant to spray and no matter I try they will not let me succeed.

Thanks everyone for their assistant over the last year or so.

Cheers,
JC
So sad!  :'(
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2017, 04:51 PM »
Don't give up. Take a break and ease back into it.

Tom

Offline Swordstriper

  • Posts: 2
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2017, 11:56 PM »
Have you considered changing paints. Advance is a very interesting paint to spray as are most waterborne alkyds. I have produced beautiful finishes with them and then had similar troubles as you are having. Just for the fun of it buy a quart of the Advance primer, thin it to 25 seconds with the viscosity cup that Fuji provides. Spray it on at 3-4 mils wet and let it dry the recommended 6-8 at 25 degrees Celsius or 72 degrees Fahrenheit which ever you prefer. Then thin your Advance topcoat with water to the same 25 seconds and see what happens. Try to set your gun to apply 3-4 mild wet keeping the nozzle 3-4 inches from the surface being careful to maintain a 50% overlap. You will move faster and see what happens.

Offline denovo

  • Posts: 22
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2017, 01:09 AM »
I find when I'm in a simialr situation the best thing to do is to take a break and do something completely different and easy for awhile.  After a few days, weeks, or months go back and try again when you don't have any pressing deadlines.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2017, 11:29 AM »
Well, after a lot of reading and research on straining Waterborne paint I found this little bit of info.

"The issue with waterborne chemistry and micron size pertains to how water resins cure. They dry by coalescing together to form a film, unlike solvent resins which dry by evaporation of the solvent into the air. A key difference is that a clotted hunk of solvent resin will re-dissolve in the presence of more solvent. A dried particle of waterborne resin that has clotted into a hunk won’t re-dissolve. As a result, several paint brands call for the smallest hole size (125 microns) to ensure that the final paint finish is perfectly smooth."

I found that when I was spraying BM Advance that I was getting some fine coffee grain bits that had not dissolved on the finished surface. So I called Gerson, who make paint strainers, and explained to them my problem and they informed me that they recommend 125 or 150 micron strainers for Waterborne. Now I was a little bit skepticle about this so I asked them if it was the same for house paint like BM Advance and SW ProClassic and they yes.

They sent me some samples for me to try.
So I thinned Advance, tinted Cloud White, with 10% water, used a 1.3mm needle and cap, my Q5 and strained it with a 125micron strainer, and guess what, no dried bits. I use to see these right away as soon as the paint touched the surface. Now the real test will be in a couple of hours when the paint levels and dries a bit.
Stayed tuned.

JC

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2017, 12:38 PM »
Funny, I asked Roger Phelps of HVLPSALES what the micron size of the strainers he sells and he couldn't even tell me!  Many places just state fine or coarse.  I did get some elsewhere, IIRC, there were three different options.  I'd have to look what I got, seems like it was at least two flavors.

Going to the 3M PPS system could solve this as well, they have 200 micron and 125 micron strainer lids.
Bill
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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2017, 12:57 PM »
Funny, I asked Roger Phelps of HVLPSALES what the micron size of the strainers he sells and he couldn't even tell me!  Many places just state fine or coarse.  I did get some elsewhere, IIRC, there were three different options.  I'd have to look what I got, seems like it was at least two flavors.

Going to the 3M PPS system could solve this as well, they have 200 micron and 125 micron strainer lids.

I haven't yet decided if I will go to the PPS system or not. When gerson offered to send me a few samples of each strainer, I was expecting and envelope in the mail. Instead, they sent me 200 of the 125micron and 200 of the 150micron and 2 dispensing units, one for each filter size. I have enough filters to last me a life time.

I wasn't expecting that from them at all.
Cheers,
JC

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2017, 02:08 PM »
I haven't yet decided if I will go to the PPS system or not. When gerson offered to send me a few samples of each strainer, I was expecting and envelope in the mail. Instead, they sent me 200 of the 125micron and 200 of the 150micron and 2 dispensing units, one for each filter size. I have enough filters to last me a life time.

I wasn't expecting that from them at all.
Cheers,
JC

At Gerson they list a strainer as 1000 micron(for latex paint) but no others listed like this!  Did they mention this to you?

Yeah, you got a deal there.
Bill
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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2017, 03:28 PM »
I saw that. Latex and Waterborne are two different animals.

Cheers,


Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2017, 04:09 PM »
Could be why I do not experience the problems you did. I've used the PPS system since day one. It's got to the point where I'll grab either lid. I used to be real selective, didn't notice a difference.

I also prestrain my finishes, I don't strain stain.

Tom

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2017, 04:31 PM »
I saw that. Latex and Waterborne are two different animals.

Cheers,
Latex is water based but try to find anything that states "for sure" that there is a difference between water based and waterborne.  Might be play on words or like a paint and primer in one which from what I've read is impossible.
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2017, 04:39 PM »
Water based reconstitutes when water is applied, think finger paints, waterbournes will not reconstitute when water is applied. (This is how I look at them)

Tom

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2017, 04:46 PM »
Water based reconstitutes when water is applied, think finger paints, waterbournes will not reconstitute when water is applied. (This is how I look at them)

Tom
Don't really know but here's one of several that have stated the same thing.
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2017, 05:48 PM »
Water based reconstitutes when water is applied, think finger paints, waterbournes will not reconstitute when water is applied. (This is how I look at them)

Tom
Don't really know but here's one of several that have stated the same thing.

The meanings of the words help clear this up (in my opinion)

Waterbased-water is the main ingredient

Waterbourne-transmitted in water

The [waterbourne] finishes we use, the ingredients that make up the product are transmitted in water, once the water evaporates the product cannot be reconstituted with water.

Tom

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2017, 05:55 PM »
Water based reconstitutes when water is applied, think finger paints, waterbournes will not reconstitute when water is applied. (This is how I look at them)

Tom
Don't really know but here's one of several that have stated the same thing.

The meanings of the words help clear this up (in my opinion)

Waterbased-water is the main ingredient

Waterbourne-transmitted in water

The [waterbourne] finishes we use, the ingredients that make up the product are transmitted in water, once the water evaporates the product cannot be reconstituted with water.

Tom
Thanks Tom.

Still having issues spraying Advance. Tim offered me his PPS system to try out. That is the only thing different, other then your experience, between us. This is so frustrating.

JC

Offline Scott Burt

  • Posts: 1954
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2017, 06:06 PM »
Hang in there. Once you have served your penance to the spray gods for whatever you did wrong in the past, things will become a lot more fun!

We all go through this stuff.

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2017, 07:30 PM »
The meanings of the words help clear this up (in my opinion)

Waterbased-water is the main ingredient

Waterbourne-transmitted in water

The [waterbourne] finishes we use, the ingredients that make up the product are transmitted in water, once the water evaporates the product cannot be reconstituted with water.

Tom

water-base paint - paint in which water is used as the vehicle

That sounds the same to me.
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #78 on: February 01, 2017, 09:10 PM »
The water based paints are waterborne, sometimes nomenclature dictates we define things with well held colloquialisms.

Tom

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2017, 04:22 PM »
So I setup a 2 quart pressure pot being pressured with my Rolair JC10 to get the paint to the tip and I'm using all of the air from the Q5 to atomize the paint. Using a 1.3mil needle and cap. I will thin paint by 10% to prolonge open time.

We'll see what happens. Stay tuned.

JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2017, 04:05 PM »
So I found out that if you hook up the Fuji pressure pot to a Q5 the way they recommend, it does not pressurize the cup enough to push the paint, thick waterborne, up the hose consistently. I found that the paint did not come out of the gun smoothly. It was intermittent.
Therefore I put on my McGiver hat and configured it so I can pressurize the pot with my Rolair JC10 compressor, to a maximum of 15psi, as my guage only goes that high, and direct all of the air from the Q5 directly to my gun. It's not a pretty setup, but it will prove the concept. Fuji was kind enough to lend me their pressure pot so I could do some testing. The guage I had kicking around the shop.

Green hose is from the compressor to the pot. Grey hose is from the Q5 turbine. Blue hose is a 6' whip hose and the 6' clear hose is the fluid tube. One good thing about the clear hose is that it is easy to see when it is clean.
Cheers,
JC
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 04:17 PM by JCLP »

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2017, 07:31 PM »
So I found out that if you hook up the Fuji pressure pot to a Q5 the way they recommend, it does not pressurize the cup enough to push the paint, thick waterborne, up the hose consistently. I found that the paint did not come out of the gun smoothly. It was intermittent.
Therefore I put on my McGiver hat and configured it so I can pressurize the pot with my Rolair JC10 compressor, to a maximum of 15psi, as my guage only goes that high, and direct all of the air from the Q5 directly to my gun. It's not a pretty setup, but it will prove the concept. Fuji was kind enough to lend me their pressure pot so I could do some testing. The guage I had kicking around the shop.

Green hose is from the compressor to the pot. Grey hose is from the Q5 turbine. Blue hose is a 6' whip hose and the 6' clear hose is the fluid tube. One good thing about the clear hose is that it is easy to see when it is clean.
Cheers,
JC
I have that same Fuji branded PP which I've never used yet but my setup is a bit different.  I have the outlet that you have going to your gun capped with a simple plastic garden hose cap.  On the other end I have a 3M mini-regulator fed by a compressor and the gun is fed directly from the turbine.

The product output from PP is just the same as you have of course but I find the plastic hose way too stiff for my liking.  As I states, I've never used it yet other than with water.  I do wonder that being semi-clear plastic and with water there are many bubbles that cling to the inside of that hose, does it do the same with anything other than water??

An added function of the 3M mini-regulator feed the PP or even your gun is that you'll hear any air leak that you won't hear with a turbine near by.  The PP did leak around the cap seal, 3M PPS cup leaked and both my Gxpc had internal leaks but most were easy fixes except the PP itself which was a PITA!  The PP's cup threads were too tight to allow it to self align against the cap seal, even a new seal didn't help.  It's not perfect but I did get it to hold pressure fairly well but it was a pain.
Bill
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 4754
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2017, 07:54 PM »
So I found out that if you hook up the Fuji pressure pot to a Q5 the way they recommend, it does not pressurize the cup enough to push the paint, thick waterborne, up the hose consistently. I found that the paint did not come out of the gun smoothly. It was intermittent.
Therefore I put on my McGiver hat and configured it so I can pressurize the pot with my Rolair JC10 compressor, to a maximum of 15psi, as my guage only goes that high, and direct all of the air from the Q5 directly to my gun. It's not a pretty setup, but it will prove the concept. Fuji was kind enough to lend me their pressure pot so I could do some testing. The guage I had kicking around the shop.

Green hose is from the compressor to the pot. Grey hose is from the Q5 turbine. Blue hose is a 6' whip hose and the 6' clear hose is the fluid tube. One good thing about the clear hose is that it is easy to see when it is clean.
Cheers,
JC

but did you spray anything yet [unsure]

Connect the turbine hose directly to the gun, you don't need it going to the pot. Cap the pot if necessary.

Looks like a 1/4" fluid hose, with the pot sitting on a cold floor you'll probably need closer to 20 psi to move the fluid properly. (or put the pot in a bucket of hot water)

Tom
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 07:57 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2017, 09:28 AM »
Thanks Tom,

I will be spraying shortly. Thanks for the tip about the floor. Didn't even think of that.

JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 644
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2017, 11:17 AM »
I think I'm in love.
Well I just tried it with BM Select Regal tinted Escarpement Grey, conditiond by 10% with BM Extender (great product). Set the pressure to 12-14psi and it fed the paint with no issues. 1.3mil needle had enough air, all from the Q5, to atomize the paint.
Two panels drying, well see in a few hours whether I'm still  in love or if it was just lust.

Now I'm off to buy some walnut and maple.
Cheers,
JC
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 02:22 PM by JCLP »

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 376
Re: I got Blue, not Green
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2017, 11:32 AM »
I think I'm in love.
Well I just tried it with BM Select Regal tinted Escarpement Grey, thinned 10% with BM Extender (great product). Set the pressure to 12-14psi and it fed the paint with no issues. 1.3mil needle had enough air, all from the Q5, to atomize the paint.
Two panels drying, well see in a few hours whether I'm still  in love or if it was just lust.

Now I'm off to buy some walnut and maple.
Cheers,
JC
It must be love as you've been through hexx! ;D
Bill
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