Author Topic: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?  (Read 3270 times)

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Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« on: January 24, 2017, 11:56 PM »
Hey all,

I just ordered some of Target's EM6500 and have been really please with how it lays out either sprayed or brushed, but I'm not happy with the dry film hardness and durability. I would compare it to BM Advance or Proclassic with much better blocking resistance.

Question is, when I move to refinish my kitchen, what should I be using for a white coating (white cabinets)? I have read about KEM Aqua Plus and Aqualente, but a had a discussion with a guy at ML who cautioned me away from Aqualente. I will have to spray inside my home, so I assume that means water based due to explosion hazards.

I have never seen KEM or Aqualente in person, so I'm hoping others can give me some insight as to the durability compared to EM6500 or the hybrid alkyd paints. Judging by the durability of BM Advance or EM6500, I don't think those would hold up in a kitchen.

Thanks

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Offline J0hn

  • Posts: 34
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 01:25 AM »
General Finish has a pigmented poly.  Standard color is black or white but you can get custom colors also.  Water based and sprays nicely

https://generalfinishes.com/professional-products/water-based-paints-glazes-and-pigmented-top-coats/enduro-pigmented-black-white

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 08:17 AM »
Thanks, John.

I have also been seeing the GF finishes, but have read some not so great things about durability. Do you have any experience with GF poly vs any of the other usual suspects for kitchens?

Obviously I want to choose the best product within my parameters and do it once!

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3438
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 09:20 AM »
I just ordered some of Target's EM6500 and have been really please with how it lays out either sprayed or brushed, but I'm not happy with the dry film hardness and durability.

Give it some time. It hardens to a very durable finish. I have a client that has some cabinets that are 5-6 yrs old and the 6500 looks as good as the day I sprayed it. I have a sample in my shop and it is very durable. It is an acrylic like Kem Aqua.

Question is, when I move to refinish my kitchen, what should I be using for a white coating (white cabinets)?

Unless you are using Aqualente in light colors I would advise you not to use it. It is difficult to spray with an turbine HVLP.
I have sprayed whole kitchens with Kem Aqua and haven't got a call back yet. Not say I won't.
Kem Aqua Plus or EM6500 are good choices in Acrylics and Kem Aqua is easily tinted by a knowledgeable SW dealer. If you are going to spray a darker color, a grey etc. I would use a tinted Polyurethane or a Alkyd based coating such as Advance or SW Pro Classic (Blue label). The draw back with the alkyd based paints are that they take a long time to cure, but the coatings are very tough. I


Tim

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 09:57 AM »
Hey Tim,

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I will be spraying from a cheap turbine HVLP. Most likely white on outer cabinets and a medium gray on the island.

I let the 6500 dry for about a week (spec sheet says ~100 hr full cure) and I can still do some pretty good damage to the dry film with my fingernail. I was hoping it would form to a harder film because I can see this easily being damaged by bumping a pot, pan, or dish into it. I know Target has some additional clears that I could shoot over top, but I didn't know how a product like KEM Aqua compares to 6500 in durability. Doesn't make sense to go through the extra work and cost for 2 Target products (pigmented coat + tougher clear) if I could get the same performance from one, like KEM Aqua.

Offline jaguar36

  • Posts: 153
    • Toolamanjaro.com
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 10:08 AM »
Target also has a cross-linker additive that they say will improve:

Quote
    Through-cure time
    Gloss/sheen
    Water and alcohol resistance
    Scuff & mar resistance

I've not used it as the 6500 has always been plenty durable for my uses, but you could give that a shot.

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 10:13 AM »
Good point on that cross-linker. That was actually my original intent (6500+cross linker), but the limited info I've found on the crosslinker said people were having issues with the final finish film in that it was turning out "grainy". Could have been a once off bad deal, but kind of scared me off.

Have you used the 6500 for kitchens?

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1872
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 10:15 AM »
I've had good kitchen durability with GF milk paint topped with GF Enduro clear poly.
+1

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 10:22 AM »
I was just taking a look at the GF stuff and noticed an interesting bit on the Enduro Poly vs. their Water-Base Pre-Cat Lacquer: the hardness of the poly is 67 vs. 150 for pre-cat on the Koenig scale. Seems like quite a difference, but not sure what that means in the real world.

Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 68
KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 10:30 AM »
Most water based products take substantially longer to cure compared to solvent based products. If you apply waterbased product at a thicker than recommended millage it will take even longer to cure. Temps and humidity can also affect the cure times.

I haven't used it yet, but my local rep is setting up a demo with Valspar Zenith Conversion Varnish for me. According to the TDS you can use it as a topcoat for stains, glazes and basecoats. This might be a good option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 12:06 PM by Pnw painter »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1872
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 11:05 AM »
I was just taking a look at the GF stuff and noticed an interesting bit on the Enduro Poly vs. their Water-Base Pre-Cat Lacquer: the hardness of the poly is 67 vs. 150 for pre-cat on the Koenig scale. Seems like quite a difference, but not sure what that means in the real world.

Where are you seeing those numbers? Per the GF website the durability values are:

Conversion Varnish:
Hardness (Koeing): 95
Wear (Taber): 20.4
Water (5 max): 4
Chemical (105 max): 101


Enduro poly:
Hardness (Koeing): 67
Wear (Taber): 35.7 mg loss
Water (5 max): 4
Chemical (105 max): 97


Pre cat laq:
Hardness (Koeing): 90
Wear (Taber): 94.2 mg loss
Water (5 max): 4
Chemical (105 max): 84
+1

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 11:06 AM »
Good question: I let it cure for around a week, but the datasheet says full cure after 100 hours, so I figured it was done. Don't get me wrong, durability isn't BAD, but running my fingernail across the finish mars it and I can easily dent it. I can't do anything like that to my current clear cabinet finish since it's a lot harder. It might be your everyday brushing lacquer, who knows.

I have also seen the Zenith product line, so maybe I'll look into that as well. Appreciate it.

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 11:15 AM »
I just pulled the hardness values off the GF website. Here is what I'm seeing for the Pre-Cat (hopefully I'm not violating any forum rules): PreCat

Says 3 coats has hardness of 150 Koenig after 7 days

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3438
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 11:45 AM »
I let the 6500 dry for about a week (spec sheet says ~100 hr full cure) and I can still do some pretty good damage to the dry film with my fingernail.

Do you know what your wet mil.thickness was? I suspect you spraged a much heavier coat than the recommended and it will need more time to fully cure. I
I get the best coating when spraying EM6500 using a compresor driven hvlp. In most cases a cheap turbine HVLP forces the user to a heavier mil thickness.
Please note covering a soft  coating with a clear coat will not prevent chipping and scratching in a kitchen. Only a properly sprayed coating rated for those conditions will do so.
Tim

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 11:49 AM »
Not sure on wet film thickness, but I made some test panels both sprayed with airless and brushed over a primed surfaces. The airless WFT was probably heavy, but the brushed one I would guess was around 4 mil.

And when I say damage the film, I mean if I push the end of my nail into the coating, it will definitely leave a dent and if I scratch at a 45 degree angle along the surface, it will mar the finish to a different sheen. Sounds like you're saying this isn't normal for EM6500.

Good to know about putting a harder film over a softer one. Never knew that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 11:51 AM by romeyjdogg »

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3438
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 12:39 PM »
And when I say damage the film, I mean if I push the end of my nail into the coating, it will definitely leave a dent and if I scratch at a 45 degree angle along the surface, it will mar the finish to a different sheen.

I don't believe it has fully cured. Unless they have changed the formulation from 5years ago, after it's fully cured you should not be able to dent the coating with your finger nail or scratch with anything less than the sharp edge of a newly cut key.

Tim

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1872
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 01:26 PM »
I just pulled the hardness values off the GF website. Here is what I'm seeing for the Pre-Cat (hopefully I'm not violating any forum rules): PreCat

Says 3 coats has hardness of 150 Koenig after 7 days

Wow, they have some confusing/conflicting info about that product on their site.
+1

Offline romeyjdogg

  • Posts: 9
Re: KEM Aqua Plus, Target, or other coating?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 02:21 PM »
And when I say damage the film, I mean if I push the end of my nail into the coating, it will definitely leave a dent and if I scratch at a 45 degree angle along the surface, it will mar the finish to a different sheen.

I don't believe it has fully cured. Unless they have changed the formulation from 5years ago, after it's fully cured you should not be able to dent the coating with your finger nail or scratch with anything less than the sharp edge of a newly cut key.

Tim

Hmmm, that's interesting. I have been trying to get a hold of Jeff at Target, but he's a tough guy to track down.