Author Topic: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel  (Read 6533 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« on: May 11, 2016, 10:15 PM »
The doors have an orange peel look which I believe is from the paint being too thick.. Also its been very humid the last few days which may not help especially since I spray outdoors.  I'm spraying BM advance  with a Fuji 1.5 needle.  How do I use a FORD viscosity cup with respect to choosing the best needle for atomization.  Or is the FORD cup only use to determine how much to thin the paint?

Without thinning the paint, the FORD viscosity was well over a minute.  I did the same test using water which was around 10 seconds.  From the attached Fuji Quick Reference,  I would think a FORD viscosity of 25-30 seconds would be best for BM advance paints. 

So if I thin to the recommend max of 10% AND it still not within the 25-30 second range then what ... Do I use a bigger needle/cap? What's secret on choosing the best needle/cap for the paint?  Currently I'm using the 1.5 needle and cap based on Tom's great video of spraying BM advance and Regal Select ....     

Thanks for the help! Chris
   
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:13 AM by ByoBuzz »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 09:37 AM »
My phones battery is dying, my suggestion is to find the thread with the links to my videos of shooting the products. Maybe another member can post it for you. They'll answer your questions.

Tom

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 868
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 09:55 AM »
The doors have an orange peel look which I believe is from the paint being too thick.. Also its been very humid the last few days which may not help especially since I spray outdoors.  I'm spraying BM advance  with a Fuji 1.5 needle.  How do I use a FORD viscosity cup with respect to choosing the best needle for atomization.  Or is the FORD cup only use to determine how much to thin the paint?

Without thinning the paint, the FORD viscosity was well over a minute.  I did the same test using water which was around 10 seconds.  From the attached Fuji Quick Reference,  I would think a FORD viscosity of 25-30 seconds would be best for BM advance paints. 

So if I thin to the recommend max of 10% AND it still not within the 25-30 second range then what ... Do I use a bigger needle/cap? What's secret on choosing the best needle/cap for the paint?  Currently I'm using the 1.5 needle and cap based on Tom's great video of spraying BM advance and Regal Select ....     

Thanks for the help! Chris
 
Hi Chris,
The Ford cup is used to measure viscosity only. With Advance I thin 10% with Water. Do not use BM Extender as it is not compatible. If you lay the paint down to thick you will get orange peeling.
I use a 1.3 mm needle and cap with my Earlex 6003 turbine. I had to practice a lot to get a good coat. If I'm doing a 12" by 24" panel, I will set my gun so I get about a 6" fan. I then spray about 6" from the surface. If I spray the long way first ( 24" ) it will take me about 10 sec to make one pass. I make 3 passes then rotate the panel, 90 degrees and do the same thing again in the other direction. Make sure you keep the gun not more then 6" from the surface or you will get a gritty surface. It takes a lot of practice, but once you get it it's easy.
Hopefully thismake sense. If you can find Tom's video's they are great. He helped me a lot. His willingness to share his experience is second to none.
Cheers,
JC

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 868
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 10:38 AM »
Here is the link to the videos Tom mentioned.

Video  link

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 11:44 AM »
Hi Chris,
The Ford cup is used to measure viscosity only. With Advance I thin 10% with Water. Do not use BM Extender as it is not compatible. If you lay the paint down to thick you will get orange peeling.
I use a 1.3 mm needle and cap with my Earlex 6003 turbine. I had to practice a lot to get a good coat. If I'm doing a 12" by 24" panel, I will set my gun so I get about a 6" fan. I then spray about 6" from the surface. If I spray the long way first ( 24" ) it will take me about 10 sec to make one pass. I make 3 passes then rotate the panel, 90 degrees and do the same thing again in the other direction. Make sure you keep the gun not more then 6" from the surface or you will get a gritty surface. It takes a lot of practice, but once you get it it's easy.
Hopefully thismake sense. If you can find Tom's video's they are great. He helped me a lot. His willingness to share his experience is second to none.
Cheers,
JC
I take it that you have the amount of paint adjusted to a point where your two pass(coats) equal what one wet mil thickness coat should be?
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 868
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 11:49 AM »
Hi Bill,
Yes. With lots of practice I'm able to get the required wet mils with 2 coats. I use to do 3 passes but have since upgraded to 2 passes. Tried one pass but had no success.
Cheers

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 12:02 PM »
@tjbnwi @JCLP Thanks!  - I've subscribed to Tom's channel and watched his videos many times.. He makes it look easy.  I do feel I'm getting closer to a nice finish. I'm painting French Doors vertically that have glass panels. Do you think the high humidity could cause orange peel? I'm using a 1.5 needle as Tom did in his video with no thinning with respect to the BM advance paint.  I'm going to try a 1.3 needle with 10% thinning with water although I do have some concerns with the paint running.

As suggested, I'm spraying a 6 inch oval from a 6 inch distance although my technique may need some work. I've been changing the gun fan from vertical to horizontal with respect to spraying the stile and rail direction. I noticed this causes some uneven overlap at the joints. I'm going to try to spray without changing the fan which may help.  Any thoughts on best technique on spraying french door with glass panels.

Thanks Chris       

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 868
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 12:13 PM »
@tjbnwi @JCLP Thanks!  - I've subscribed to Tom's channel and watched his videos many times.. He makes it look easy.  I do feel I'm getting closer to a nice finish. I'm painting French Doors vertically that have glass panels. Do you think the high humidity could cause orange peel? I'm using a 1.5 needle as Tom did in his video with no thinning with respect to the BM advance paint.  I'm going to try a 1.3 needle with 10% thinning with water although I do have some concerns with the paint running.

As suggested, I'm spraying a 6 inch oval from a 6 inch distance although my technique may need some work. I've been changing the gun fan from vertical to horizontal with respect to spraying the stile and rail direction. I noticed this causes some uneven overlap at the joints. I'm going to try to spray without changing the fan which may help.  Any thoughts on best technique on spraying french door with glass panels.

Thanks Chris       
Hi Chris,
Because you are spraying a vertical surface with Advance, I would probably be spraying multiple thin coats due to the fact that Advance flows for a very long time. I have tried spraying the recommended wet mils of 3.6 on a verticle surface and ended up with runs and peeling. I got good results spraying multiple thin coats. Now, I have tried the same thing with Regal Select with no success. Paint dries too quickly and does not flow as well. Is there any chance of removing the doors and doing it laying flat. It will take more time but it could relieve your stress. Just a thought.

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 12:35 PM »
Hi JCLP -  I've tried spraying thin coats although it may have been too thin. The result was gritty/acne and not as smooth as expected. As you suggested, I'm going to try spraying the doors horizontal using a 1.3 needle with the paint thin with water to 10%.   

Although using a 1.5 needle and cap without thinning may work too in the horizontal position with respect to the BM Advance paint.   

More sanding, More spraying, More sanding, ... Repeat... 
 
Thanks Chris

     
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 12:38 PM by ByoBuzz »

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 868
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 01:47 PM »
Hi JCLP -  I've tried spraying thin coats although it may have been too thin. The result was gritty/acne and not as smooth as expected. As you suggested, I'm going to try spraying the doors horizontal using a 1.3 needle with the paint thin with water to 10%.   

Although using a 1.5 needle and cap without thinning may work too in the horizontal position with respect to the BM Advance paint.   

More sanding, More spraying, More sanding, ... Repeat... 
 
Thanks Chris

     
Hi Chris,
If you don't have to thin it, stick with the 1.5. Thinning paint makes it easier to run. As for the grit. I found that after I have finished spraying the panel I look at it closely and if I can see the grit I will do a light spray over the gritty area which eliminate the grit. I found that even with Regal Select, if the paint is not laid down thick enough, I will get grit. Therefore I spray another layer to increase the wet mils I just sprayed. Don't spray too thick otherwise you could get fish eyes.
If I have a very large panel, such as a fridge panel. I will use a 2.5mil needle and cap with a wide spray.

A wise man once told me " Practice Practice Practice". The wise man was Tom Bader.
It's a steep learning curve. I spent approx 2 months and 10+ gallons of paint till I figured out how to spray. I know what you are going through. I've been there.

Cheers,
JC

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 02:37 PM »
Chris,

You don't mention how long the doors have cured prior to you evaluating them. Waterborne scan that 24-48 hours to tighten properly.

Tom

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 02:53 PM »
Chris,

You don't mention how long the doors have cured prior to you evaluating them. Waterborne scan that 24-48 hours to tighten properly.

Tom
One wouldn't wait that long to determine if an additional coat was needed, would they??
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 03:02 PM »
Its about 20 hour since I sprayed the doors. The doors do look better by the hour although I suspect it will still have some orange peel look to it especially when viewing from an angle. I suspect that the high humidity yesterday may have cause the orange peel versus allowing the paint to self level. I'm assuming with high humidity, the paint drys too fast instead self leveling.

Tom - Do you recommend I spray the doors horizontal?  I noticed in one of your videos that you sprayed the doors horizontal on a rotating jig. The Fuji 1.5 needle and cap seemed fine other than the orange peel look. Should I add water to thin so its not so thick which may help to self level?

Thanks Chris


Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 65
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 07:52 PM »
Hello Chris just a thought here, have you tried spraying Sher-Wood Kem Aqua and or plus?
 It is a WB pigmented Lacquer from Sherwin Williams that can be tinted any colour. It is thin, easy to spray, levels out great and dries hard. Recoats in 30 mins and is priced less than Advanced
Advanced takes for ever to harden and recoat times are 7-8 hrs, side by side comparsions the Kem Aqua looks like a pro finish
I have sprayed many of Kitchen door and cabinets with the Kem Aqua and finish is excellent, grain shows through finish
Just a different thought for you

Thanks
Bruce
Hand Woodworking

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 09:51 PM »
@brewster201   

Bruce - I agree with you. Its been painful spraying Advance and waiting for it to dry. I'm definitely spraying SW Kem Aqua Plus next ... My only issue is its 80 miles away to get it tinted from a SW production store AND its expensive. A gallon of BM advance is $45 where as SW Kem Aqua plus is $75. Although SW pricing is always interesting.

My local Benjamin Moore store which is 5 miles away is starting to carry lacquers under the name of Lenmar.  Any experience with it? Or any other lacquers that you can recommend.

I've also heard good things about M.L. Campbell lacquers BUT its 100 miles in the opposite directions. But the price per gallon is more reasonable. 
 

Thanks  Chris



         
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:57 PM by ByoBuzz »

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 65
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 07:39 AM »
Hello Chris I have used M.L Campbell Aqualente Lacquers and is simlar to the Kem Aqua. I found the Kem Aqua dried harder and had a lower sheen that I liked. I thought the ML Cambell had more sheen then I was looking for, all a personal preference lol
I do use there Aqualente stainblocking primer and sands well
I'm very close to a SW store so it is very convenient, my pricing for the Kem Aqua is around $48 Cad and BM advanced $60
The Ml Campbell Lacquer cost me around $75 and primer $58 and is a 1/2-3/4 drive.
I have not used the Kem Aqua plus but planning to do so in the near future
I'm sure there are other great lacquers out there but I'm just comfortable with the Kem Aqua

Bruce
Hand Woodworking

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2016, 09:04 PM »
Chris,

You don't mention how long the doors have cured prior to you evaluating them. Waterborne scan that 24-48 hours to tighten properly.

Tom
One wouldn't wait that long to determine if an additional coat was needed, would they??

I know how many coats I'm applying prior to doing the job. Part of the costing process.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2016, 09:13 PM »
Its about 20 hour since I sprayed the doors. The doors do look better by the hour although I suspect it will still have some orange peel look to it especially when viewing from an angle. I suspect that the high humidity yesterday may have cause the orange peel versus allowing the paint to self level. I'm assuming with high humidity, the paint drys too fast instead self leveling.

Tom - Do you recommend I spray the doors horizontal?  I noticed in one of your videos that you sprayed the doors horizontal on a rotating jig. The Fuji 1.5 needle and cap seemed fine other than the orange peel look. Should I add water to thin so its not so thick which may help to self level?

Thanks Chris

I did read your question when you first posted it. I was out of town with my phone only. I don't respond much with my phone.

Use the 1.5, it will work just fine.

I much prefer spraying the doors on rotators. It allows you to apply the product at full thickness to both sides without fear of runs. A picture of the doors racked for drying.

No reason you can't thin the product, just don't get carried away. I never like to see over 10%. Try Flotrol.

Tom




Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2016, 09:20 PM »
Thanks Tom - I sprayed this weekend with the 1.5 and no thinning.  Much better result although still not perfect.  But good enough for my doors

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 86
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 09:54 PM »
Tom - What was the process in finishing your doors. I'm assuming a SW KA+ sealer, SW stain, and SW KA+ finish? 

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2016, 10:03 PM »
Tom - What was the process in finishing your doors. I'm assuming a SW KA+ sealer, SW stain, and SW KA+ finish?

Spray, wipe SW BAC stain.

SW KA+ Sanding sealer, 1 coat, sanded with ETS 125-320 Granat

SW KA+ MRE, 2 coats, sanded 320 Granat between coats, no sand on top coat.

Tom

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 768
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2016, 07:04 AM »
Hello Chris I have used M.L Campbell Aqualente Lacquers and is simlar to the Kem Aqua. I found the Kem Aqua dried harder and had a lower sheen that I liked. I thought the ML Cambell had more sheen then I was looking for, all a personal preference lol
I do use there Aqualente stainblocking primer and sands well
I'm very close to a SW store so it is very convenient, my pricing for the Kem Aqua is around $48 Cad and BM advanced $60
The Ml Campbell Lacquer cost me around $75 and primer $58 and is a 1/2-3/4 drive.
I have not used the Kem Aqua plus but planning to do so in the near future
I'm sure there are other great lacquers out there but I'm just comfortable with the Kem Aqua

Bruce

Bruce

I recently switched from using General opaque and ML Campbell Aqualente opaque. The aqualente opaque was a terrible inconsistent product and General seems to have changed their formula for opaques so it takes much longer to dry. Both became a pain to use and are a stupid price. The SW stuff and the support from the commercial division in Brampton is great. The products are great to use are you can order whatever colour/sheen you want. I tried a couple of the SW store fronts in the past and like most storefronts they had no clue when it came to the sprayable lacquers. I've also switched from using Target coatings to a SW euroline product called Sayerlac, saved me $30.00 a gallon and is another good product to work with.

John

Offline brewster201

  • Posts: 65
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 06:47 AM »
Thanks John I will check Sayerlac out. Wondering if I can it order from my SW dealer in Hamilton/Ancaster.

Bruce
Hand Woodworking

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1985
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2016, 08:59 AM »
I mostly see orange peel when sprayed product tacks up before it can fully lay down.

This can be controlled by making sure that your environment is proper for the product. If it is too warm or too much air flow in the room, product dries faster. Environment and amount sprayed are usually culprits with the products that I use.

Technique can come into play with HVLP. Too many passes introduces too much air at the surface, and HVLP air can be warm which can prematurely heat up the product that is trying to lay down.

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2016, 09:31 AM »
Technique can come into play with HVLP. Too many passes introduces too much air at the surface, and HVLP air can be warm which can prematurely heat up the product that is trying to lay down.
After Fuji introduced their new 5-stage turbines they added this heat dissipating hose .
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2016, 09:51 AM »
Technique can come into play with HVLP. Too many passes introduces too much air at the surface, and HVLP air can be warm which can prematurely heat up the product that is trying to lay down.
After Fuji introduced their new 5-stage turbines they added this heat dissipating hose .

As I understand it the heat dissipation is built into the turbine on the Q5. I read the specs as it cools the turbine, not the air cap air temperature.

The 6' leader hose that comes with the unit came with the Q4. It's a leader used between the main hose and the gun. I use a 25' leader hose, rarely have the heavier (blue) hose on the unit.

http://www.amazon.com/25-HVLP-Turbine-Air-Hose/dp/B000LDN0EO

Tom

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2016, 10:10 AM »
As I understand it the heat dissipation is built into the turbine on the Q5. I read the specs as it cools the turbine, not the air cap air temperature.

The 6' leader hose that comes with the unit came with the Q4. It's a leader used between the main hose and the gun. I use a 25' leader hose, rarely have the heavier (blue) hose on the unit.

http://www.amazon.com/25-HVLP-Turbine-Air-Hose/dp/B000LDN0EO

Tom
That heat dissipating hose is included with all Fuji 5-stage systems now.
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5702
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2016, 10:18 AM »
As I understand it the heat dissipation is built into the turbine on the Q5. I read the specs as it cools the turbine, not the air cap air temperature.

The 6' leader hose that comes with the unit came with the Q4. It's a leader used between the main hose and the gun. I use a 25' leader hose, rarely have the heavier (blue) hose on the unit.

http://www.amazon.com/25-HVLP-Turbine-Air-Hose/dp/B000LDN0EO

Tom
That heat dissipating hose is included with all Fuji 5-stage systems now.

Guess they have not updated their website showing it's included.

http://www.fujispray.com/hvlp-systems/

Tom

Offline wptski

  • Posts: 443
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2016, 10:32 AM »

Guess they have not updated their website showing it's included.

http://www.fujispray.com/hvlp-systems/

Tom
I got that from Roger Phelps but he has some contradicting info now there.  It mentions that the short heat hose comes with all 5-stages systems but under the 5-stage systems it states that it comes with 25' High Temp Hose (No need for a Heat hose)!  He's had mistakes before which I've caught and he corrected so this just might be another one.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 01:24 PM by wptski »
Bill
Most Confused!

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1985
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: More HVLP Help - Orange Peel
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2016, 01:07 PM »


[/quote]

As I understand it the heat dissipation is built into the turbine on the Q5. I read the specs as it cools the turbine, not the air cap air temperature.

The 6' leader hose that comes with the unit came with the Q4. It's a leader used between the main hose and the gun. I use a 25' leader hose, rarely have the heavier (blue) hose on the unit.

http://www.amazon.com/25-HVLP-Turbine-Air-Hose/dp/B000LDN0EO

Tom
[/quote]


I think this is the key point.

Leader hose or "whip" sections do nothing to cool the air passing through to the cap.  They are less likely to melt and deform (this has happened to us at the turbine end of the main line in the past) and tending the hose while operating the gun is more practical.

Most HVLP's (I think with the exception of the Earlex) that we have ever used have had whips.

It would be cool if there was a hose that would cool the air inside it though. But wouldn't that cause condensation and then we'd need to add an inline moisture trap at the gun?

 [blink]