Alan m
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Location: Ireland Member Since: Aug 2010
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« on: April 22, 2011, 04:40 AM » |
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hi there
i see in another thread thaat people are saying that using products with silicone in them that ruins finishs.
could ye alaborate on this please.
could people list what products that shouldnt be used near finishs(dont know if askink this is against the fog rules).
does this include silicone (in eu we call it that , not sure across the pond) in a tube for sealing in glass , mirror , windows, bathroom fittings etc
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now
ts 55+2 1400 rails+ 1 lr32 1400 rail, domino+assortment systainer+ domiplate, ct 22 with boom arm+home made thien baffel, lr32 set, rotex 150, home made MFT,home made work center, 6 t locs for other tools, of2000 , ro 90, mft 800, trion , ls 130
wish list
of 1400, MFT 3,, even more t locs for other tools
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
Posts: 2812
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 05:25 AM » |
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Silicone is terrible for finishes because it has a different chemistry. Most finishes are based on water or oil products and the problem with silicone is that it won't dissolve in any of them. As a result, when paint is applied on silicone, the silicone will repel the paint. I have seen many times that when I painted something, open spots would form where the paint was repelled. Even though I had cleaned the surface thoroughly before. It happened especially often with new wood with freshly installed windows where the installers made a mess with the silicone caulk. Or where silicone spray was used on hinges.
It is also hard to get rid of, because as said, it won't dissolve in most chemicals used for cleaning like water, amonnia, terpentine and white spirit.
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windmill man
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Location: Lancashire UK Member Since: Aug 2007
Posts: 544
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 05:35 AM » |
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Hi Alan,
You can also find silicone in domestic aerosol polishes , some machine lubricants and lubricants for machine beds, You need to check whats in the above you use in the shop as it does cause havoc when trying to apply finishes.I find it a real problem when you are repairing furniture That has had stuff like Pledge and Mr Sheen used on it.
Have a good Easter
John
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Ken Nagrod
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Location: New Jersey Member Since: Jul 2010
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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2011, 12:08 AM » |
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In the automotive refinishing industry we had a type of product generally known as fisheye killer that was added to the paint in a very small quantity that would allow the paint to flow out over the silicone contaminated areas. It's still best to use a pure lacquer thinner (not the cheaper regenerated stuff) to try and remove all traces of silicone before attempting to finish or refinish. Do it multiple times and change rags frequently, since they'll take in the contamination.
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Robert Robinson
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Location: Princeton, Indiana Member Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 711
southern Indiana, U.S.A.
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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2011, 12:16 AM » |
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I paint vehicles for Toyota, and silicone is always a major concern. Common household products can cause these defects too. We have to check the ingredients to our deodorant, and shampoo too. Dimethicone is a common ingredient in deodorant and shampoo, and is a derivative of silicone, and I can't wear these. We have a saying at work "If it ends in cone, leave it alone". There are several diferent chemicals that cause these problems, and almost all on our ban list ends in cone.
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TS-55, FS-KS angle unit, 55 inch guide rail, Domino (pin style), 3 Domino systainer assortments(one sipo set),Multi-position Guide Stop 20, Domiplate , PSB-300, FOGtainer 4, CXS set
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Ken Nagrod
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Location: New Jersey Member Since: Jul 2010
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2011, 12:20 AM » |
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Ice cream?  |
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Robert Robinson
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Location: Princeton, Indiana Member Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 711
southern Indiana, U.S.A.
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2011, 12:43 AM » |
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I'm sure they would love it if I was eating ice-cream while I was painting!
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TS-55, FS-KS angle unit, 55 inch guide rail, Domino (pin style), 3 Domino systainer assortments(one sipo set),Multi-position Guide Stop 20, Domiplate , PSB-300, FOGtainer 4, CXS set
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Chris Has Flair
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Location: Port Moody, BC Member Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 395
I make sculptural furniture.
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2011, 01:51 AM » |
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In the automotive refinishing industry we had a type of product generally known as fisheye killer that was added to the paint in a very small quantity that would allow the paint to flow out over the silicone contaminated areas. It's still best to use a pure lacquer thinner (not the cheaper regenerated stuff) to try and remove all traces of silicone before attempting to finish or refinish. Do it multiple times and change rags frequently, since they'll take in the contamination.
Fun fact: Fish eye killer is silicone! By mixing it into the finish, the finish flows evenly. I read this in one of Bob Flexner's articles. |
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Ken Nagrod
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Location: New Jersey Member Since: Jul 2010
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2011, 01:55 AM » |
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You are correct. I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.
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jmbfestool
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Location: UK Member Since: Jan 2009
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2011, 04:27 AM » |
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I try and not use silicone any more only for bathrooms really.
Like around wooden windows I hate silicone white always turns a horrible dirty colour and like alex mentioned if it has been done poorly and people have got it unevenly on the window when you paint the window it shows up.
I use acrylic as its has the same characteristics as caulk and silicone. I think it works really well one stone buildings best! I scribe the windows best I can with a planer an axe and a chisel then the rest I use acrylic and once its all painted it looks like the entire window has been scribed into the stone work much nicer finish than silicone.
JMB
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andvari
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Location: Central NJ Member Since: Oct 2011
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 09:50 PM » |
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You are correct. I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.
Fish eye killers are silicone surfactants. Basically one end of the molecule is some type of silicone and the other end is water soluble. The silicone end being compatible with the fish eye will attach to it, and the other end being incompatible will stick out providing a surface that is wettable with the finish chemistry. |
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TS55, Domino 500, Domino Assortment, OF1400, CT36+Boom Arm, T12+3, FS3000, Parallel Guides, RO 90, ETS 150/3, Domino XL, Domiplate, LS130, RTS Guide Stop, CMS-GE
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Ken Nagrod
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Location: New Jersey Member Since: Jul 2010
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 10:08 PM » |
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You are correct. I always found that odd, but never asked the chemists at BASF (I sprayed Glasurit/Diamont/Limco/RM back then) why or how it worked.
Fish eye killers are silicone surfactants. Basically one end of the molecule is some type of silicone and the other end is water soluble. The silicone end being compatible with the fish eye will attach to it, and the other end being incompatible will stick out providing a surface that is wettable with the finish chemistry. Thanks for the information and chemistry lesson. Interesting!  to the FOG! |
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richard.selwyn
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Location: Normandy, France Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 631
Normandy, France
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« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 11:40 PM » |
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Just to mention - acetone is good for cleaning up silicone sealant.
I use a lubricant for my machine beds from Felder called supergleit - has no effect on finishes as far as I can tell.
Regards,
Richard
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RL
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2010
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 01:01 AM » |
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On a side note, the classic silver colour of Mercedes Benz racers in the 1930s incorporated ground up fish scales.
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I like green.
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Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 01:37 AM » |
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On a side note, the classic silver colour of Mercedes Benz racers in the 1930s incorporated ground up fish scales.
Now that's something I never heard before! Wonder how the car smelled when new? How'd you come across that bit 'o info, Richard? |
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RL
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2010
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2011, 02:01 AM » |
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A few years ago, I made a 1/8 scale model of a 1935 Mercedes Cabriolet, and I was researching authentic paint colours. (In the end, however, I painted it blue.) It was an insanely detailed model, with thousands of parts.
In a way, it's what got me into woodwork because the first wooden piece I built was a display case for the model.
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I like green.
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richard.selwyn
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Location: Normandy, France Member Since: Jan 2007
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Normandy, France
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2011, 04:21 AM » |
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Did they reckon the fish scales would make it slip through the air better - or was it just the only way to get a fancy colour?
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Alex
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Location: The Netherlands Member Since: Nov 2008
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2011, 05:16 AM » |
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They use a lot of natural sources to make paints and dies. It's a very common habit and only the colour is important, no other factors. For instance, when you eat something that is coloured red, chances are very high that you're eating ground up plant lice.
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FulThrotl
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Location: Huntington Beach, CA Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 86
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2011, 02:48 AM » |
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hi there
i see in another thread thaat people are saying that using products with silicone in them that ruins finishs.
could ye alaborate on this please.
could people list what products that shouldnt be used near finishs(dont know if askink this is against the fog rules).
does this include silicone (in eu we call it that , not sure across the pond) in a tube for sealing in glass , mirror , windows, bathroom fittings etc
aerosols with silicone in them are the death in paint shops. there is a product called slip ease, used in upholstery shops for getting covers onto foam cushions. i used to work in a boat upholstery shop. the guys from the custom paint shop next door would break out in a rash if you walked in their shop carrying a can of it. once the wind was blowing the wrong way, and it carried the product almost 200' to their spray booth, and destroyed a $5,000 paint job they were shooting. and that was 1970's money... :-( just ruined a pearl paint job that looked about a foot thick. |
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... it's not good.... my festool dealer
knows me by my first name....
...i'm suspecting i'm his 401K.....
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